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Redfury…I can so relate to what you wrote! I am new here. I was on the Just Found Out forum and it's been 7 months. I'm really excited that I just counted that it's been 7 months…because it gets me further and further away from D day.

I have strong suspicions that my WH was a narc, sociopath and probably borderline. He too was a sex addict and I am a recovering cody. He won't ever be diagnosed as it's not him, it's me…he can't possibly come to believe that there is something wrong with him.

GraceLove... be thankful every day that you are seeing the truth. My god, they screw with your minds.

So, his insanity is ramping up and mine is slowing down. On Thursday my step-dad let me know he had a trailer and we could get stuff from the house. I told him to inform stbx. This led to a barrage of texts all day. From 'how dare I go into his house, it is a violation' to 'he knows it's his fault' to 'redfury is a terrible person' to 'he'll do anything to get me back'. It was stressful. Panic attack inducing, but I got through it and managed to remove everything from the house that required help.

Friday/Saturday took what had been planned as a family trip with my kids. Had a good time until right when we were leaving. Got all sad and missing stbx. But I no longer held any belief that we could be happy. Was just wishing I could have pretended one last time. Realized the stupidity of that after about an hour.

Last night, I guess he was low on supply and he started texting me all crazy again. Started with 'I miss you' then 'redfury is the cheater' then 'you'll never find anyone better' then 'crazy minimizing, things weren't that bad'. I didn't respond to any of this, but I did read it. He's trying to push my buttons. These are all things that would have provoked a response in the past, but I'm done engaging in the insanity. Had trouble sleeping last night (of course) but I'm almost to the point where I'm completely unentangled from him and won't have any reason to read his texts. Thankfully, every time I start to miss him, he shows me more of his crazy.

I didn't know much about personality disorders before DDay. To be honest, I don't know much about them now, either. However, in the time following the DDays I did read up on them when I was frantically flailing about trying to figure things out. I did some check lists and under NPD and BPD assigned my WW a fair number of checks. If I remember correctly there was about 4 different NPD classes, if that's the right term. There was even more checks on BPD. I had some checks in both disorders, too. Understand, too, that I'm biased. I also wondered about DID but that doesn't fit here.

I've been cleaning out stuff and packaging some up to give to WW to take away. In the filing cabinet storage in my office was a letter from one of her classmates in high school. This was after she and we had been married a few years. In the letter the classmate asked if my WW still acted crazy. I never thought about that at the time. I know my WW was beautiful, striking, had flashing, mischievous eyes and a smile that would light up rooms. She did attract male attention. She also had a switch inside that changed all that to something almost sinister (sinister is probably an overstatement but I don't have another word right now) and then flip back again after the appropriate amount of time.

Some time after we wed, a few years at least, I started suggesting that she get some counselling based on her behaviours. As the years passed I became more forceful about that. She very much resented that because there was nothing wrong with her therefore I was the problem.

Something you wrote, redfury, really bothered me. Last week after I got back from a new counsellor I posted on SI about it. The next morning I got an e-mail from her asking about the counselling session. She must have read about it on SI. I asked why she wanted to know. She e-mailed back that she expected an offensive e-mail from me and had justification to expect that. It was consistent to how she would question my abilities and intelligence in backhanded, subtle ways throughout a fair portion of our marriage. She always said she never intended that interpretation ever. To be honest I was verbally cruel and vicious to her for a few months before she finally moved out to encourage her to move out.

What bothered me about your post, redfury, was about the barrage of e-mails I sent to her after her reply to my one word e-mail "why?" I probably sent 4 e-mails in fairly short order following that. It makes me wonder about me. For the first couple of years post DDays I did a lot of "comfort me/get away from me", "I love you/I can't stand you".

I probably will never know if she suffers from disorders of this thread but here is another thread I believe I will follow. I don't think she wants to dig deep and hard into the dark spots in her soul. She did wrong but she had her reasons and she's comfortable with that. I hope I'm wrong but I lived with her for 40 years and don't thin she'll do the work. It's too hard and painful.

@redfury

On Thursday my step-dad let me know he had a trailer and we could get stuff from the house.

I'm glad that you are able to get out.

These are all things that would have provoked a response in the past, but I'm done engaging in the insanity.

Excellent work! The sleep will come back. It's miserable, but it does get a lot better.

@steadychevy

She also had a switch inside that changed all that to something almost sinister (sinister is probably an overstatement but I don't have another word right now) and then flip back again after the appropriate amount of time.

Uh, I'd say in my case sinister would fit perfectly.

What are your plans? I see you've been separated for a while. Are you planning to divorce?

It's important to understand that the diagnosis isn't important, the behavior is. That said, understanding the disorder for what it was caused me to leave my marriage.

What bothered me about your post, redfury, was about the barrage of e-mails I sent to her after her reply to my one word e-mail "why?" I probably sent 4 e-mails in fairly short order following that. It makes me wonder about me. For the first couple of years post DDays I did a lot of "comfort me/get away from me", "I love you/I can't stand you".

Only you can determine what is up with you, but to me that sounds a lot like the crazymaking that happens in a relationship with someone with BPD. I know I used to spend hours trying to explain myself to him. But it never works, because they live in their own version of reality (and unfortunately draw you into it). It's just like a codependent to try and find why it's their own fault. And the addiction to someone who hurts you? Yeah, I completely understand that. Very much codependency.

I'd suggest writing everything down and trying to see it objectively. Were you trying to manipulate her feelings, or make her finally hear you? Were you hot and cold on your own accord, or due to her actions?

xhz: planning on D.

redfury: not trying to manipulate or make her hear me. Those things were while not separated and riding the roller coaster. The swings can happen in short order from one extreme to the other. Often reacting to her actions/inaction.

I wasn't trying to manipulate with the e-mails last week. I was lashing out, reliving previous situations about how she would pose things and then say she didn't mean it like that.

Another counselling session tomorrow and feeling the need.

It's just like a codependent to try and find why it's their own fault. And the addiction to someone who hurts you? Yeah, I completely understand that. Very much codependency.

Omg, Redfury, that was my problem forever. I felt I was addicted to him. He could be soooo charming, and "act" wonderful.

Was just wishing I could have pretended one last time

I was doing that for years. I would get upset, he'd act horrible, getting myself ready to leave and then he would "act" normal, hoover me back in. There were so many times that it could last for a month or so where everything appeared normal and I wanted it so very much, I allowed myself to believe it. That we could do it. I was so starved for any kind of emotional kindness, that I survived on crumbs and was grateful for the crumbs.

Although I saw an IC, there were a lot of FOO issues for me, and my first xWH left without even trying to R, not even with an explanation (I found out he was cheating after he left)

I was afraid to kick current WH out because of his NPD traits. I know how horrible he can be. I've seen how he has treated people who feels wronged him. I've seen how he treated OW and OC's (the golden children) when she had enough of him.

I lived in fear for years.

I feel like I wasted my life and now I'm not really mad at him, but more angry with myself for putting up with all this garbage.

I can't fix him, and just feel so afraid.

There is so much in each post that I can relate to. I can relate too well.

I would get upset, he'd act horrible, getting myself ready to leave and then he would "act" normal, hoover me back in

This was the pattern for about 12 of our 14 years together, long before the infidelity. I actually dragged him to MC twice before the infidelity. There were so many times that I really should have left, his behavior was just so unacceptable. I do think that we get hooked, like an addiction.

I have read a lot about PD's and the common behaviors from both the PD and the partner. There are a couple of things that actually affect your brain to keep you hooked. Trying to regain that "true love", doing anything to reestablish that connection that you felt in the beginning is a part of that. Also, the intermittent reinforcement, good/bad, angry/loving, raging/apologetic, is very confusing for your brain. You begin to doubt your own perceptions about what is happening. This is not normal treatment and our brains don't respond in a rational way to it. I think it boils down to a normal response to abnormal and hurtful behavior.

Because we cannot conceive of treating someone this way, it is hard for us to wrap our minds around it. I know for me, while I was living in it, I would try to understand. I would imagine what I would be feeling, thinking, that would allow me to behave that way. Then I would feel badly for him that he was in such pain.

Yeah, I sure had that wrong. I had nothing to do with his rages. He was just built that way.

I think the most painful thing was to accept that all of the words and occasional actions that said love were not really love. He cannot love, at least in the way that those of us with normal brain function do. The love is shallow, no bonding, no empathy, it is for the moment. It was a temporary thing before it ever began.

Now, I feel that I can accept it. I see it as a deficiency in him. He has an illness. I do also know that it is an illness that doesn't just cause him harm but everyone close to him. To make it even a bit more twisted, I know that I can feel sorry for him that he suffers because of this but he really doesn't care what effect it had on me. To be clear about feeling sorry for him, I do it from afar, just in my mind. I view him like I would a rabid dog. I feel bad that he has this disease but there is no cure and it will harm me if I get close. There is a cure but well, he isn't really a dog and I'd get arrested!

This really is not funny, it is tragic. I do have enough distance now that I can have that black humor thing about it. I am healing and that feels like such a monumental achievement. Have patience with yourself.

I am fortunate that we do not have children together and that I can keep strict no contact.

One writer that helped me is Rhonda Freeman, she has a website. It is written very simply but she is a neuropsychologist and writes about the brains reaction and the addictive feeling about leaving a PD. It helped me to accept my feelings and be patient with the process of detaching.

I guess my main point here is don't beat yourself up for staying too long. We do the best we can with what we understand at the time.

ed me about your post, redfury, was about the barrage of e-mails I sent to her after her reply to my one word e-mail "why?" I probably sent 4 e-mails in fairly short order following that. It makes me wonder about me. For the first couple of years post DDays I did a lot of "comfort me/get away from me", "I love you/I can't stand you

This stuff is crazy-making times 1000! This is like a wayward on crack!

During the early days, by that I mean the first 2 years or so after he walked out. I was so confused, the constant internal ruminating "why", "who does that", over and over. I would fall into texting him with those questions. It would turn into this crazy, circular verbal vomit. I lashed out in ways that I never would have expected from me. I started questioning if I were PD.

What I finally saw was that I was not randomly attacking. I was asking questions about real events and behaviors. I was not just calling him names but giving a name to the behaviors. I was finally speaking my mind. I was saying all of the things that I had stuffed throughout our years together.

I think during those early days we are trying so hard to accept, to understand what is real, to find some closure, to find a rational reason for all of this that it just becomes overwhelming.

Once I accepted that he would never give a real response, that there would never be "closure", that I could understand the articles about PD intellectually but never in my heart, I was able to just stop.

Each time we communicated, it only reactivated the questions, created more confusion and pain.

I am now divorced over 3 years, separated for 4 years. He still will get a message through on occasion. I have changed my email, changed my phone number and will be moving in a couple of months. I am strong enough now to just not respond. I will say this though, each time, my stomach clenches, my heart starts skipping and not from joy. It is still just random, nonsensical crap.

I think this is bigger than betrayal, bigger than infidelity, this is years of screwing with your mind. This is trying to sort through your life narrative and making peace with what you never knew was real. This is grieving for someone that never existed. Not easy to live with for sure.

Now, I live with it by knowing who I am. I know that I was never any of the awful things he said. I know that I have the capacity to love deeply. It is sad but I am grateful that I survived it and now I am living a life free from abuse. I am not only free from abuse but I others in my life that are capable of bonds and empathy. It is a gift that I never would have had if I had not gotten away. Odd to say but perhaps I appreciate it more deeply because of what I experienced with him.

I know how hard all of this is. My heart aches when I read all of the craziness everyone is dealing with. It is a big load of crap to heal from, for some, decades of abuse.

I do wish that I could help. Hopefully, just hearing that I survived and that I am healing, that life does begin to feel normal again, that you will stop wondering why and who does that, will give you hope.

(((everyone)))

cantaccept, Thank you so much. I need to hear from people who are out of this! stbxwh once casually mentioned that his ex had to move to a different state to get away from him. I didn't understand what he meant at the time, now I do.

During the early days, by that I mean the first 2 years or so after he walked out. I was so confused, the constant internal ruminating "why", "who does that", over and over. I would fall into texting him with those questions. It would turn into this crazy, circular verbal vomit. I lashed out in ways that I never would have expected from me. I started questioning if I were PD.

Oh, how I understand this. I mentioned that I am on probation. One year after d-day, after a couple of days of particularly bad crazy-making including him denying the existence of a photo he posted online while we were both looking at it and endless circular questioning, I snapped. I lost my shit completely and he had me arrested for domestic violence. That was really the thing that started me on the process to recovery. I had become something I never wanted to be. I began to look at myself and my choices and all signs pointed to 'you are allowing this person to abuse you, the only solution is to stop allowing it'. That was about 9 months ago. If it weren't for that, I don't know if I'd ever have had the strength to leave

And I also wanted to comment on MC with a PD person. It is pointless. My current IC was originally our MC and she has pointed out to me that he never said anything genuine in our sessions. She said he was always watching me and would obviously gauge what he said based on my reactions. Whenever I brought up the lack of respect in our marriage (this is when I believed he had stopped cheating), he would turn the conversation to his childhood trauma. I asked why she didn't say anything to me she said "A marriage counselors job is to help clients with the relationship. Whenever I asked if you wanted to be married to him, you said yes."

[This message edited by redfury at 6:53 AM, January 9th (Tuesday)]

redfury, I am glad that what I wrote helped you.

In my situation our last MC also became my IC too. It really helped. I know it is not recommended but it helped because it validated my perceptions of what was really happening. IC would actually role play with me, I had to try to behave like x and that was so eye opening!

I had a moment during false R when I lost my temper and lashed out physically. Be careful with this! He was being so cold, criticizing be for being too full of myself. I stood in front of him and hit his chest. It was not to inflict damage but more out of frustration, pain. He attacked full force. Shook me like I was a rag doll, chased me through the house, broke the door frame and door with my body, threw me and I hit my head on the metal bed frame. He didn't stop until I was unable to move. He then proceeded to throw things down the stairs. It was terrifying. Still, I stayed for another 8 months. I felt complicit. Just be careful. They are bigger and really can do damage.

There is a whole lot more. It still is hard to write about. Right now I can feel the anxiety ramping up.

One thing though that is different now, it is the past. I can ground myself and I will be okay in a little while. This takes lots of time and conscious effort to recover from.

I developed the habit of clenching my teeth from the stress of it all. Funny that didn't start until after I was away from him. You would think these kinds of things would happen during the crazy. I guess we just don't allow ourselves to see it while it is happening. So, just yesterday I had to have a tooth removed because I cracked it from stress clenching. Still, even still there are effects from this.

The difference now. I have a new man in my life. I didn't think I would be able to but for a year now I have been with him. He took me to the dentist. He pampered me. He never got impatient with me. He didn't use this as a tool to hurt me. It is hard to accept that there are kind and compassionate people that you can trust out there. There really are! He had to really earn that trust from me though. So yes, in spite of the fact that I still have some "issues" life is so much better.

I do also still remember how hard it was to get away. Hard to imagine now why I ever gave him a second and then a third chance! What helped me finally was to be really honest with a few people about the details of what my life had been. I just kept imagining their opinion of me if I went back again. It was hard! I ached for him but at the same time knew that I only ached for my imagined version of him. It is hard to wrap your brain around.

I look back now and remember some of the things he said to me. He really was telling who he was, I just didn't believe it.

Be strong and just keep believing yourself. If I can help in any way it would be my pleasure. If you get a chance, google Rhonda Freeman. Just understanding the chemical processes in the brain helped me to just accept how I felt and remember that I needed to be patient with myself. Knowing that your reactions are actually normal is very helpful.

I look back now and remember some of the things he said to me. He really was telling who he was, I just didn't believe it.

It seems that our inability to see things like this is as common as people like them.

You would think these kinds of things would happen during the crazy. I guess we just don't allow ourselves to see it while it is happening.

cantaccept: This is what I'm dealing with now. I couldn't actually REALLY see what was happening. I knew things weren't right, but I realize my tolerance level for the abuse just kept going up to the point the whole crazy situation became the new normal.

Looking back now, I just feel so angry with myself. I feel I ruined my life for putting up with so much and living in so much fear that I didn't do anything for myself to escape and allowed me and my kids to live in a horrible situation out of fear.

Now, with the latest dday, I've gotten a minimum wage job, but am afraid I'm going to lose my house. I can't afford it. I feel I wasted so many years and I know that the worst is yet to come with NPDWH.

I'm scared. I'm not afraid of physical abuse, he is a coward and knows I'd call the cops immediately (he's never physically abused me, although I heard he did to OW#1)

I'm just scared of being homeless. Of losing everything. He already took took much from me financially.

Thank you for listening. I know the people on this board would understand what it's like living in hell and seemingly becoming a crazy person yourself....at least becoming codependent which is a kind of crazy in a way.

honest, I do know what it feels like to feel like you're the crazy one. Just remember that you are not crazy. You did the best you could given the information that you had.

How can we possibly understand the lack of bonding? How can we know that there are people that just are wired differently and don't feel as we do? I don't think we can until we live through it. Even then it is hard to grasp. We base our decisions on how we think and feel about others and the world. Now we know differently. It is a very painful lesson to learn.

You will find a way to survive. I am faced with similar regarding the house. I have hung on for the last 4 years just barely paying the bills. I have had to do without so many things. I bought my clothes at donation centers. I did without going to the doctor if I were sick. The house is worth less than the mortgage and I have finally decided to just let it go into foreclosure. I went to an attorney for advice and am filing for bankruptcy.

I am fortunate though. I have been with a really good man for a year now. We have decided to take a risk with each other. I am going to move in with him. Yes, I am a bit afraid but I also see him for who he is. I have watched carefully. I have verified all he has told me. I have also looked at the worst case scenario, the what if...I will be no worse off than I am now if he should morph into the demon from hell. I really am not expecting that but given what I have lived through, how can you really ever know?

Can you rent a room to someone that you know? A family member perhaps? That helped me for a bit. A good friend was moving and was between places, he was going to rent so I suggested with me.

My adult son moved home also for a couple of years and contributed also.

I think any thing that can give you some time to get a handle on what you want, until you get your feet on stable ground.

Have you been to an attorney yet? I couldn't afford one so had to navigate divorce on my own. x had nothing, hid all his income and of course lied about it.

I did not qualify for legal aid but perhaps you may.

I also was not afraid of him physically abusing me, until he did. Don't minimize the risk. It is real. Abusers are all cowards while there are witnesses. If you are alone with them, never underestimate the potential risk. Be careful. j

You didn't waste your years. You were real. You loved and were an authentic human. Now though, you have the opportunity to be with other authentic humans. Now you know what that truly means. For me, I have such a deep appreciation for the truly kind, the people of integrity, it feels like a gift. I feel like I appreciate so much more deeply because I know what a gift it is.

You will survive this. You really can do this. I know how scary it feels. It feels as if the whole world is a jungle but you just never saw it before. In reality, at least in my experience, the world and the people in it are actually better than I had known. I was just with the scary ones.

honest, you may lose your house. It will be ok. I've gone from the house of my dreams (actually had to spend some therapy time letting go of the house before I was able to leave) to a tiny apartment. And it's ok. It better even, because it's a place of peace.

And embrace your feelings, but don't let them consume you. Fear is completely rational. I've been telling myself that it's the first rational feeling I've had in regard to stbx. So I try to channel my fear into taking care of business instead of letting it incapacitate me. (Easier said than done. Do some reading on learned helplessness.) Make a list of things you need to do. Separate bank account. Consult with legal aid. Whatever you can think of. Doing these things will help you manage your fear.

You WILL survive this. And you will come out stronger.

Sending you lots of hugs and encouragement!

I'm so thankful for this thread because I couldn't figure out where I belong. Do I post on Emotionless Infidelity? But then there's the sex addiction piece. Oh, but what about his alcoholism? There were 4 threads in I Can Relate that I could have posted in but didn't know which one to pick. So I just didn't write on any.

I'm 16 months from DDay and like many of you, I really thought I was going crazy. I kept thinking "what's wrong with me?" Now I see that I WAS going crazy because my narc husband was happily sending me to Crazyville! We have been separated since July 27th of this year...that was the day my CSAT trauma therapist saw his mask slip. She said the hair stood up on the back of her neck. She went from recommending reconciliation to "run for your life" in less than 5 minutes. He continues to fool and manipulate his therapist.

I'm trying to get some finances worked out before filing but everything I read says he will never play fair. Plus, I busted him drinking out of town, so he knows the gig is up. I think we are entering the discard phase. This is the longest he's left me alone in months. Oh thank you NC!

Thank you all for sharing your stories. We have all endured/are enduring our own version of hell, but there's something comforting about knowing you're not "the only one" with a Dateline ID type of story!

that was the day my CSAT trauma therapist saw his mask slip. She said the hair stood up on the back of her neck. She went from recommending reconciliation to "run for your life" in less than 5 minutes. He continues to fool and manipulate his therapist.

Send your CSAT a fruit basket.

I think we are entering the discard phase. This is the longest he's left me alone in months.

#blessed

Thank you Redfury and cantaccept.

I don't know what to do about a lawyer. I actually owe a lawyer money for a post nup I tried to draw up a few years ago that WH refused to even look at.

He borrowed money against the house more than what it is worth. I know it will end up foreclosing, so all the money I put into is gone. One of the reasons I stayed for so long is because our kids were still younger and he was paying the minimum to keep us going, while he had enough money for OW#1, 3 OC's, and now OW#2. (sigh)

I know I stayed for a lot of reasons that at the time seemed the lesser of two evils. Still have to let go of my own anger at myself that I let my fear and helplessness rule me.

I wish I was younger that I could start over with some other career than just minimum wage. Can't afford to go back to school.

Thank you cantaccept. I did have a tenant, who just left and am looking for another. One of my adult sons came back for a while, and it can help a bit. For the past few months all I've been doing is looking to survive from month to month and I guess lately I've been confronting the future more and it scares me to death.

And I'm afraid of the NPD rage and revenge that will probably be coming when he wants to come back from overseas and I confront him with the knowledge of OW#3. I know I can't legally keep him out of the house and can't afford a lawyer.

I'm not afraid to live alone per se. I guess I'm afraid everyone is going to abandon me. I keep trying to tell myself that feelings aren't facts, but it seems that so many people abandoned me in my life in one way or another...

I'm rereading what I'm writing, and I see that it's all full of fear. WOW.

Thank you for listening. I just needed to get this out there.

Venting again.

As I have mentioned, Wh (hopefully stbxWH) has many strong NPD/BPD traits. I think what is really getting to me is that I'm an only child with very little family. No aunts, uncles, a few cousins I never see or really know.

NPDWH has a HUGE family: brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews, OC's, etc.

They ALL think he's absolutely wonderful. That he is the most wonderful person on earth. (except the few who know the truth, and even they get sucked in by the charm)

The charm. He oozes it.

He can charm the birds out of the trees. Then he might pet them, play with them, put them in a golden cage and then forget about them and go find new pets.

One of the biggest losses would be his family. My son from my first M said how could current WH be so bad and his family so wonderful.

I will miss them terribly. It's not like they would never talk to me, but it's not the same. I know. It happened with xWH#1. I mean, we kept in touch, but it's not the same with family gatherings, etc. I feel like I got fired and it's going to happen again.

I guess the only good thing is that WH's actions so damaged me, that even he will leave me alone, hopefully, but it will never end.

Again honest, I understand. The x had a large family also, I thought they were wonderful too. I had every Thanksgiving at my house, sometimes for 30 people! I thought I was part of their family.

After dday and separation, his family's craziness started to show. Some, well actually just one sister is still a good person but everyone else was not. I started learning the truth. It had all been hidden from me. His father actually propositioned me!

What happened for me was I decided to cut them out of my life. My relationships with my sons improved. I deepened my friendships with people that I trusted but always had to keep at arms length. I created my own family, a chosen family.

The one sister just recently reached out to me. I had cut contact with her also. I couldn't be in touch with her because it hurt. I was angry too. I knew it was irrational but I wanted her to choose me.

We met for dinner the other night and talked. She even said that she wishes that she had cut him out and been more supportive of me. She is seeing his true, unchanging character. He is actually accusing her of being the cause for his marriage breaking up!

All I can say is give it time. Try to reconnect with real friends that you may have let go. It is common when you are with a PD. Hard to maintain the semblance of normal when you are living with crazy.

Keep venting here. It is cathartic. Being validated is healing.

In reality, once you are free, this is your chance to build a beautiful, stressfree life.