SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have been thinking over and over, that the most natural step for me should be to get divorced.

After latest DDay, the discovery of many betrayals (one PA and many EA), my constant feeling that there is more to uncover, I feel no emotions any longer, and that's a sign for me that I should restart my life.

The first betrayal 17 years ago completely destroyed me, I lost myself, my career, my future. She came back, I uprooted my life twice, moved to a foreign country for her, restarted from zero, rebuilt my career, a company, but my life and identity was eroded slowly, passing from PTSD to the deepest depression and getting suicidal couple of times, this went on until the breaking point, we can call it "healing". Now I a rebuilding my life from zero for the third time.

Against all odds, I still like her, I remember her as she used to be the love of my life. But she belong to the OM in my heart, I lost her 17 years ago, she never honestly reconciled, she kept cheating (even if she feels like it wasn't or is a "cheating light", since she denies sex, as it makes any difference).

Those feelings are gone. Still something survives but is nothing compared to what it used to be. No hate, no anger, no remorse, there is nostalgia and missing her when we were truly a couple.

I decided to not Divorce because I want to spare that trauma to our little Daughter (she is the most important one in my life right now).

However her avoidant and emotional unavailable side makes me feel she is still rebuilding a narrative to "restore the old status quo" like nothing ever happened. Minimizing, blocking memories, changing versions, defensive, little to no empathy, shame but not guilt.

I feel there needs to be a point that I am done with her attitude. That is not ok. Her game is no fun, I am tired to live in a lie.

I am wondering if separation is viable tool in my case. We stay for the child. She likes me, I like her, so we meet as man and woman still. But I want to be free to follow my path in life.

I do not care or pursue anything, I live and see how it goes I am happy that way since I rediscovered myself. But I do not want to deprive myself either if I see a new path.

If this wakes her up about what she truly wants as she claims and she steps up, then good. If she wants to pursue more OM she is free to do that either, I genuinely do not care. But I am done pursuing her and carrying the emotional weight of our relationship on my shoulders.

People who went down this road or have more insight might help me to see it clearly. In my entire life I saw marriage as something that was extremely unlikely to happen to me, but if ever, it would be unbreakable.

Apparently I was wrong, that too can show cracks.

Thank you if you take time for this.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:47 PM, Tuesday, January 13th]

I’m really sorry you’re in this position. Reading your post, what comes through most clearly is how much you’ve already sacrificed, how much pain you’ve carried for years, and how deeply you’ve tried to be principled, even at enormous personal cost.

Because of that, I'm going to push back on your idea of a "half-in/half-out" marriage or a separation-in-place.

First, despite what you say about being emotionally done, it’s clear you still love her and are holding out some hope that she will finally wake up, take responsibility, and choose you. Staying married keeps you emotionally stuck in that hope. It prevents you from fully grieving the marriage you actually had (not the one you wish you had), and it prevents you from building a life that is truly your own. You can’t restart your life while still tethered to the person who repeatedly destroyed it.

Second, remaining married keeps you legally and financially bound to someone who has demonstrated time and time again that you can't trust her. You’ve already uprooted your life, your career, and your identity multiple times for her. Continuing to intertwine your future with someone who lies, minimizes, rewrites history, and avoids accountability puts you at ongoing risk, whether you emotionally disengage or not. Paper and law don’t care how detached you feel.

Third, this situation does not spare your daughter from trauma. It only changes the shape of it. Children learn what relationships are supposed to look like by watching their parents. A household where love is fractured, trust is absent, intimacy is ambiguous, and boundaries are blurred teaches a child that this is normal adult partnership. Many children raised in "we stayed for you" homes later say they felt the tension and wished their parents had chosen honesty and stability instead of quiet misery. It's also unfair to put the burden of your unwillingness to leave a toxic and unhappy marriage on your child. She may grow up to feel immense guilt (or resentment) for your decision to remain married, despite the fact that it's clearly crushing you.

Fourth, practically speaking, this arrangement will sabotage any chance you have of forming a healthy future relationship. Emotionally healthy, self-respecting women do not want to date a man who is still married and living with his wife, regardless of how "separated" he is in theory. The dating pool you’ll attract in that situation is far more likely to consist of people who are themselves unavailable, avoidant, or chaotic—exactly the opposite of what someone with your history needs.

Fifth, many people have tried this "for the kids" limbo. The outcome is almost always the same: they feel trapped. They are unable to fully invest in their marriage, but also unable to fully move on. Years pass. Resentment quietly grows. Life shrinks instead of expanding. You deserve more than survival mode after everything you’ve already endured.

Sixth, the logistics alone are a minefield. How does dating work in real life? Are you expected to watch your daughter while she sees other men? Will she do the same for you? What happens when jealousy, hypocrisy, or old wounds flare up, as they almost certainly will? This isn’t emotional neutrality; it’s an ongoing slow bleed.

Finally—and this is important—you don’t actually control how long this arrangement lasts. Your wife can decide to divorce you at any time. Right now, she’s staying because the status quo benefits her. But the moment a "better deal" appears, you could be discarded anyway... except with more years lost, more entanglement, and more damage done.

You’ve already rebuilt your life from zero multiple times. At some point, rebuilding has to include choosing a structure that protects you instead of eroding you.

Divorce, in your case, would may be the most honest, protective, and ultimately loving choice for your daughter A peaceful, emotionally present father living a grounded, authentic life is far healthier for a child than a father quietly rotting away inside an intact household.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:24 PM, Tuesday, January 13th]

Sorry you're going through this. Infidelity really sucks. Your situation is quite different from mine as it sounds like your WW might be what some might call a serial cheater, and it sounds like what she did was pretty extensive and covers a long period of time.

I know for there to be any chance of R she needs to come completely clean and acknowledge your pain. Then double down and truly work to change whatever it is in her that made her think it was okay to cheat on you. I've read enough of your posts to know you've spent some real time and put significant thought and effort into your situation. I know that I'm not experienced enough to really offer you much in the way of advice, but just wanted you to know you've been heard, and most of us do understand the pain you're going through.

I'm working through recovering from infidelity with my wife of 27 years right now myself. We have a son, but he's grown and out of the house now. She had a short lived physical affair with a co worker this past April (9 months ago). She had 3 different trysts with him over a 2 week period before I caught on and confronted her about it. That was following several weeks of flirting and connecting emotionally. She eventually came completely clean about everything, cut all contact with him and has been bending over backwards to show me she can be a safe partner again, but the pain of betrayal is pretty hard to deal with. If it weren't for her current attitude and contrition I'd have been gone. I'd already set up appointments with divorce lawyers when she broke down and begged me to stay. She's been spending the last several months making a pretty good case for it. That, and I do still love her. 27 years is a long time and this is the only time this has happened to us.

So I get it. I know how much it hurts, but your situation is more complicated than mine. I wish I had more for you, but there are others here with more experience than I have who'll be along to give you some ideas or at least some other things to consider.

Those feelings are gone. Still something survives but is nothing compared to what it used to be. No hate, no anger, no remorse, there is nostalgia and missing her when we were truly a couple.

I decided to not Divorce because I want to spare that trauma to our little Daughter (she is the most important one in my life right now).

Have you considered what you are modeling to your daughter? You are showing her "this is what marriage looks like". I don’t blame you one second for feeling the way you do. Your mind is trying to protect yourself as best it can from more trauma. Tragically your wife’s infidelity is inflicting much damage on your daughter as well.

Thank you both because you gave me some good things to ponder about.

The sacrifice for my daughter is, because in her case, she is adoptive (my wife got an STD who made her infertile and always avoided to seriously diagnose it and get rid off since her first betrayal 17 years ago. Only now after my change she is seriously doing everything to get it healed) so it is a seriously traumatized child (fucked up story, her biological mother is older than us, drug abuser and alcoholic, in and out of prison, she has at least 8 different siblings, all from different men, cheating with multiple men included, she had it all), we are just lucky she does not have FAS and is perfectly healthy, beautiful, extremely intelligent and sensitive.

I am not even sure I want another marriage, I had only very few real relationships because I never believed I was made to be with someone (but those few I gave it all, unconditional), so I accepted long time ago that since I am popular with women, I will settle in having many as company instead of a serious exclusive partner (which is what I always dreamed of). I have tons of potential options, especially since I restored my true self and started to live socially again, from girls in their 20s to my age if I was into it, I'd just have the embarrass of matching choice of who with my free time.

That's what I would have done before her.

Is just I am kind of uninterested in general, I only found one woman that was having an effect on me (before my "change" other women no matter how attractive did not even register in my brain, no matter how open they were, it just does not compute), strong chemistry, that electric feeling, I cut her off without even asking her name or giving her mine, she is married, so it's a hard no for me. I am never touching a girl in a relationship, I'd rather die than do that.

And for the rest, while their smiles are nice, their flirting is flattering, in the end I do not care much because I used to do that for most of my 'romantic life' and no matter the 'variety' it was always hollow.

I changed radically sexually too, I have no longer the kind of impulses I always knew, that's another thing that is extremely weird an still new and not fully understandable to me, I obviously only tried with my wife because we still have strong chemistry and she is incredibly attracted to me now, it blows her mind but at the same time I could live without. Apparently I had more changes than emotional only, also physical, I am discovering still because it has been only a couple of month since I survived PTSD and trauma.

So technically I would like (ideally) to build a future with a woman that I can fully love and she can reciprocate at the same level, but somehow I feel deep inside, it is fine either way. There is no anxiety, no longing, no panic, no sense of urgency.

My wife now. She is trying hard to change. She keeps swearing that since the wedding she never ever betrayed me (but when the betrayal trauma eroded me just enough and I felt into depression she was showing patterns that I associate to betrayal, plus she lied me for 17 years about the first R, so it's hard for me to trust her, my trust is at zero)

She seems deeply in love, she is doing therapy, she is present, she changed behaviors. I can feel and see that. She is also trying to open up and reveal all the things about her betrayals, but she is blocked, she feels shame but I sense she does not feel guilt. Her memories and recalling of the events do not match, she narrates inconsistencies, even she notices that and says so herself.

And above all, she feels disgust and shame, but whenever she is trying to show empathy about the pain she inflicted she gets blocked, a pain in the chest and she feels detaching, frozen.

She has her diagnosis from the therapist, but for me this blockage means it is very hard to rebuild trust.

She is terrified of me, I do not have mood swings, I am at peace all the time, but I have no filters and she is afraid by the fact that I want to know the whole truth, she avoids every topic or situation that might bring close to the subject as she is walking on eggshells.

She had one night when she cried and cold not breathe and she opened up completely, that night gave me hope, the morning after she was perfectly regulated (usually she needs my presence to co-regulate). But the day after, as she went to work, she returned wearing her fucking mask and armor again, I noticed and she noticed it too.

For the rest of the moments right now we are like a teenage couple, I like her as a woman and she looks like a girl having a crush, we dance at home, she can't have enough of me, our daughter is happy to see us toghether and is also regulated by our presence.

I think that that could be a base to rebuild if only: she feels and can open to my demands for clarity. I don't think about the affairs most of the time, most of the days, I live in the present, not the past, but when the memory come back I need to process those emotions (that have been suppressed for 17 years) and I need her cooperation to know, otherwise I can only make assumptions, and the assumptions might be worse than reality, but I have only those and my instincts to work with.

If she feels the pull to run away from that or as she claims has "blocked memories" (which I know is possible, but how can I know if is true or she is lying with certainty since I have lost my trust?), then is extremely hard to properly process those emotions, as a result, I detach from her. She says she can see how she destroyed my life, believe it or not it is painful for me, because no matter what, it was my choice to take her back, so I destroyed my life the responsibility is on me.

It's a lot and it is difficult to explain, it might seem as I feel distressed, I am not because I can regulate my emotions naturally now (something I was never capable of before), I just know I have 'helped her a lot' to change with just being my new me.

But I do not think I should be her therapist. At the same time she is terrified that I will leave her, but she becomes avoidant when we get close to touch the betrayal subject, she clings to her 'soulmate' feelings, she dreads to feel those emotions and tries to pretend nothing is happening in those moments. So I leave her therapy to her IC, I was wondering if perhaps separation might give her message how serious the situation is.

Logically what I heard from you makes perfect sense as well.

I have no rush, but I think I have to think things through.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 10:44 PM, Tuesday, January 13th]

Have you considered what you are modeling to your daughter? You are showing her "this is what marriage looks like". I don’t blame you one second for feeling the way you do. Your mind is trying to protect yourself as best it can from more trauma. Tragically your wife’s infidelity is inflicting much damage on your daughter as well.

Yes, deeply. Our daughter sees only the nice part of us, the loving partnership, the helping each other.

My wife is can regulate her emotionally in a way that I never could (she comes to me when she needs to feel safety, but mom can give her true peace).

Problem is, when I was in depression my wife was really disregulated and our daughter followed suit. Mom feels fine when I am present, so does our child.

Those questions and conversations only come up when they naturally come up, if I get those emotions we only talk about it when we are alone (my wife describes is as a "rollercoaster"). It's calm, but her feelings run high then get blocked.

Considering our daughter is making huge progress to resolve her trauma is making me think it is one thing we are doing good in our lives. When we adopted her 5 years ago, she did not know how to cry or laugh or play. Imagine a 4 years old child who does not know how to cry.

She is a precious little girl now, she still has traumas to resolve but she can manage her emotions well all around.

The side of the marriage she sees now is a loving marriage, I always tried to give her that, but when I was in the last 2 years of depression I could tell that the vibe was wrong, it was forced and she could feel it, ow it is natural and she can feel it too.

The issues we have as a couple are something that we only face when alone (and only when those memories come back organically is not a daily occurrence).

If she was able to disclose all the details and take full acountability instead of excusing her choices (even if she does that only in part, I feel is still wrong, is denial) and she could feel guilt instead of just shame, we probably would have a good foundation for a true R.

OK ... now your initial posts make some sense.

I don't think you can heal if you continue to see yourself as the person who lived for some Great Love. Clearly you chose the wrong person again and again. Love and Limerence is probably a very good read for you.

I don't know why you let your GF/W mistreat you, but I'm not sure the why matters, if you take responsibility for your life and for your choices, and make different choices for your future.

Limerence can do very nasty things to a person, but once in it, it's hard to get out. Being kind to yourself is a good step. In addition, maybe the psychological tactics used by addicts who are healing will help you.

I have 60 years experience with limerence. It worked great for me, because I forced myself to keep seeing what my W actually showed me. Certainly I developed a number of wrong ideas about her, but I adjusted my image of her as I learned, and I did not think of anything permanent until I experienced love and care from her. My W focused on me for close to 45 years before cheating - and even then, she betrayed herself before she betrayed me. The aftermath of her A pretty much showed she's as hooked on me as I am on her - mutual addiction, perhaps.

But your W has betrayed you again and again for 17 years. You're clearly limerent, and you don't report much that indicates the feelings are mutual. Limerence seems to works when only one person is limerent if the limerent object (your GF/W in this case) supports the limerent one, but you say she cuts you down (or has that stopped?).

If my interpretation of your words is correct, the one-way addiction (you to your W) is wearing off, and that leaves you with a serial cheater. Serial cheating isn't irredeemable, but your situation is unusual, and I think R for you is going to be harder than for most people, and multiple As makes R still more difficult.

If your addiction is not wearing off, being with your W is bad for you and for your daughter, because you've gotten so little support from your W over the years.

Before you post how supportive she's been, compare the support she's given with the support you've wanted. Be as honest as you can with yourself. If you choose R, you'll have to live with your W.

If you still want to consider R, make sure you have a good set of requirements, and make sure your W agrees to meet them.

Some requirements for her could include:

total honesty - no more lies.

total non-contact with old aps

no new A

your W does whatever she needs to do to change from cheater to good partner - IC is a minimum, IMO (I know there are some good ICs in Poland, but Poland isn't a small area)

probably IC for you to help you process your feelings about the As and your resentments over lack of support out of your body, answers all questions, etc

Maybe MC, if one of you wants it - but IC is almost definitely going to be more effective.

You have to heal you, whether you split or R; no one else can do the work for you

Your WS has to heal herself; no one else can do the work for her

If, after starting to heal as individuals, you both want to R, you can heal your M

You can D from strength or weakness. You can R from strength or weakness. My hope for you is that you act from your strengths, not your fears. My 2nd hope is that you get the outcome you want.

But don't tie your sense of self-worth to the resolution of your M. Don't try to control it. Let the resolution grow organically from what you want and from what you and your W do.

*****

Um ... kids understand a hell of a lot more than parents think they do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:03 PM, Tuesday, January 13th]

What comes through in your reply isn’t someone who is truly ready to separate… it’s someone who desperately wants reconciliation while telling himself he’s fine either way. That’s not clarity; that’s trauma talking.

You’ve lived with betrayal for 17 years. You weren’t just wounded; you were rewired. The calm, flat "I have no urgency, no longing, no anxiety" you describe isn’t peace; it’s emotional shutdown. It’s a nervous system that learned survival by detaching. That’s understandable given what you’ve endured, but it’s not the same thing as being healed or grounded enough to make a clean decision.

You are still emotionally anchored to your wife. You still center her progress, her therapy, her shame, her blocks, her fear of losing you. You still frame separation not as a boundary for yourself, but as a way to "send her a message" or motivate her to open up. That alone tells me you don’t actually want separation—you want her to have a wake-up call and be the person you hope and imagine she could be. You’re not deal with reality.

A person who cheated for 17 years, lied consistently, rewrote reality, and still cannot access guilt or sustained empathy is not someone you can rebuild trust with by proximity, patience, or chemistry. Shame without guilt (and that’s assuming her shame is real and not a tactic she employs to shut you out) does not produce repair. Avoidance plus hysterical bonding is not healing.

What you’re describing now (the dancing, the teenage energy, the intense attraction, your daughter seeming happier) is classic hysterical bonding. It feels intoxicating because it temporarily soothes the wound, but it will collapses the moment you require any real accountability from her. You already see that cycle: one emotional breakthrough, followed immediately by the mask returning. That isn’t progress; it’s repetition.

You’re also carrying responsibility that isn’t yours. Saying "I destroyed my own life" while explaining away her behavior through trauma, diagnosis, dissociation, and shame.. Why are you responsible for choosing to stay but she’s not responsible for choosing to betray you for nearly 2 decades?

About your daughter: I believe you when you say she hasn’t noticed anything overt or hasn’t been able to articulate that something is wrong. But children don’t need language or conscious understanding to be shaped by the emotional climate they live in. They are exquisitely sensitive to tension, avoidance, emotional withdrawal, and inconsistency—even when those things are carefully managed and never openly discussed.

In many cases, the effects of growing up in a home where trust is fractured and emotions are suppressed don’t show up immediately. They emerge later, as difficulty with boundaries, self-worth, attachment, or tolerating uncertainty in relationships. A child can appear regulated, happy, and thriving while still internalizing patterns that won’t become visible until adolescence or adulthood, when she begins forming her own intimate bonds.

Staying together may feel protective in the short term, but it doesn’t guarantee emotional safety in the long term. What children ultimately benefit from most is not the preservation of a household at all costs, but at least one parent who models honesty, self-respect, and emotionally coherent relationships. That kind of stability can exist after separation but it rarely exists in a home built on unresolved betrayal and quiet endurance.

None of this means you must rush into divorce tomorrow. But it does mean that what you’re considering now isn’t separation, freedom, or neutrality. It’s bargaining. It’s postponing grief. It’s trying to rebuild a future without fully accepting the past.

Right now, despite how articulate and reflective you are, you’re not dealing with reality. You’re trying to make decisions based on how you hope they might be, now how they actually are. You’re acting from attachment and trauma. And until that’s acknowledged, no "arrangement" will actually set you free.

BluerThanBlue

I like your responses a lot because I can see you come from a place of clarity.

You pinpoint exactly what I realized as well about me, my behaviors, my decision to stay, the only difference is the time when I was like that:

it was hysterical and trauma bonding for me (and for her), I was bargaining my self worth and self respect with the idea that I will carry on the relationship no matter how hurt I kept feeling, and as sisoon pointed too, I had limerence for our pre betrayal relationship, the one I feel it was pure, also the one where I was still whole and not shattered.

That is absolutely spot on.

My story here was pretty confusing for readers due to being long (> 15k words) and written in free flow. I wrote it mainly to narrate my path outside PTSD and Betrayal Trauma, for those who are still into its depths, so I focused on the flow of emotions from then to now, and as a result the facts of the story look pretty foggy to those who do not have the full picture. It was on Just found out because she finally confessed after long time, hence the DDay is recent (but I knew it all along).

I feel the need to clarify where I stand, because it is peculiar, let me try to give it a shot (I fear it will be long, this time I try not to get it confusing).

Let's clarify that she has fond memories of our life together (14 years, almost 15) at least until my 2 years of depression (ended last year's late September). Since we moved in together she was always present (beside having separate jobs, she is lawyer and I am an executive), I "know" she was not having PAffairs during that time (still when you have been burned, the idea it might happen is never truly going away) but they were unresolved issues (her avoidance of anything reminding the B, lies and untold truths).

I don't have fond memories because it was a slow erosion of what I tried to rebuild since her betrayal 17 years ago (when she left me few months for the OM), I uprooted my life for the second time, started from zero, rebuilt a life, took risks not many people would ever feel comfortable to do. And I did it because I believed in us.

Let's say even assuming she "flied straight" since I moved here, the silence, maintaining lies instead of facing those old affairs and come clean, taking accountability, we all probably felt that sometimes this kind of silence screams louder than words.

Add to this that I am the kind of person who does not ask for help, I learned growing up that I can surely count only on myself, I appreciate and accept help if it is offered spontaneously, however I am usually the one who helps others because I can see the distress even the unspoken one and I know I am good at resolving issues for others (when they have troubles they tend to turn to me to ask for help or even just advice, means I can do something good in that regard).

So I went through this alone, I never spoke, I suppressed, whenever I spotted behaviors in her reminding me of her past (search for male validation, accepting flirting, etc. These are things an attractive woman gets normally, most people consider it normal and acceptable, for me it was a painful reminder. Still never said a word, I just sucked it up). I also never shared my story with anyone until now because you know, I feel people who did not go through betrayal can't really understand, they will offer platitudes and not much else.

While my self confidence and self worth (that was purely built on will, not natural since I never processed healing from the betrayal) was slowly being eroded, she slowly built a measure of resentment and contempt. You may not talk or face the issues, but if I could feel the stuff under the rug, so could she, and being the "guilty party", the one in the couple who kept secrets and was sure they were water under the bridge, she probably ended up resenting it. She could work with my PTSD as long as I was strong enough to "contain"it and function normally (I did not talk about it anyway), but my depression was just the space when she could see a mirror of my pain and she could not stand it. She objectively tried to help but she was "hot and cold", she was supportive when I crushed but whenever I was making progress through therapy and effort she discharged her frustrations, so any time I was feeling like climbing out of the hole, I was being hit by a sledgehammer and cast again down. And when I was down she was supportive again, then the cycle repeated. It was weird but I kind of get why she behaved like that now.

About her As and DDays: Obviously there is the original 2008 betrayal, the devastating one, she never denied it. The last DDay she admitted to another EA / PA after the first reconciliation I will keep it brief but here is how it went:

She came back to R with me (I call it fake because she returned but she started keeping the lie that she met the OM after breaking up with me, while I knew it was a betrayal, that's the only time when I truly confronted her and she admitted it) after the first 2008 betrayal. We still had a long distance relationship, we had issues with our parents' health, I started to develop physical symptoms of PTSD and betrayal trauma (serious ones) I soldiered through, and she started again to have fears and doubts about the reality of a future together.

The second Affair (latest DDay) I only have what she confessed: She worked in a law firm, and at some point the same period one of the partners started to give her attentions, staring during company trips, sometimes in the office, she felt flattered because this guy (although looking like a rat, and being factually a rat of a person) was the "hot guy" in his pond, the youngest partner with a reputation among office ladies (because he was predatory with many others, but somehow that turned out to be "cool" in that environment). Long story short, one night during a skying company trip, they are coming back from the bar to the hotel in group, he walks besides her then grabs her and kiss her. She swears that nothing else happened because she kept him outside her room, and another girl (prettier, younger) who noticed the kiss intervened and seduced him shortly after, so he got together with her, knocked her up, then fired and dropped her with her child as his custom.

She swore that she since then given up to this kind of exploration as she was disgusted by men in general.

True or not, that did not make me feel any better.

She gave me full access to her e-mails and communications, and I found evidence of this past affair, right when we were discussing my moving there to live together (I was uprooting my life, study, career, connections, to come to her. she knew that and she was still leading a double life).

In her mind she filed that under "platonic" and excused it as nothing relevant.

In my mind that is betrayal, full stop.

And like before "I felt that" back then when it happened, and it tainted the R and all that followed even if I was in denial with myself and she confessed to it only 15 years later.

What I feel is a complete lack of trust, she build our life on a foundation of a fake R and lies. So any red flag behaviors, any emotional drift any questionable "where are you" that normally happens in life gets tainted by the doubt and worst case scenario because she did not come clean and kept secrets for so long.

And she is still showing deep shame but not full accountability (she tends always to excuse or justify or minimize some aspects) and she is emotionally unavailable and avoidant, so when she feels emotions there is a point when she freezes and detaches from the ability to feel guilt.

No amount of "sorry" or "I am disgusted with myself" will do unless I feel she can come clean and process and absorb emotionally

what she has done. No amount of swearing that those were the only 2 and the rest where flirtations that she turned down until I can trust her again.

She constantly looks for connection, she is going through therapy, she is putting in a lot of work, she even asks if she can read this forum and for the first time I can say she is really trying. Somehow until I feel the change I cannot feel to her more than "I like this woman" but I do not feel the trust that I need to recommit to her.

I hope this gives a better picture of the puzzle. I feel like I am missing pieces, and only full and accountable honesty can restore those.

---

Now about my current state. It is hard to explain because is peculiar: the therapist described as post traumatic integration, limbic reset, identity crystallization, shift from external to internal focus.

It caused psychological and physiological changes, measurable. It happens sometimes to people who survive PTSD, is relatively rare but is documented.

I lived 17 years in fight/flight mode, I developed autoimmune diseases, psychological issues like constant panic attacks and dissociation, derealization, I was emotionally numb, I had physical issues like gastric issues, skin flares, migraines and headaches, sleep pattern troubles, eating disorders, weak immune systems and a galaxy of others.

Everything disappeared, clinically, it is like they were never there. I am monitored by private professional (it's interesting for research), it was not a temporary state, it is stable, I did not even realized it was happening initially, it was just "normal".

And believe me @BluerThanBlue, @sisoon and all of you who are interacting with me here, I might not sound like that since I can see the way I write. Word cannot fully express how much I appreciate the support and advice you are sharing with me, even through this platform I can 'feel' how genuine your help and emotions are. After all you are the first human beings I am opening up these parts of myself.

I feel the need to explain my position and that can easily be received as dismissive or even arguing. I promise you it is not, I am reading everything you respond many times over, I truly listen to you and I see everything someone shares with me as personal growth, it is something valuable a perspective that I treasure no matter what.

In a one to one conversation I don't use many words, very little actually, I tend to feel connected with the person in front of me I am talking to, so communication flows naturally.

In a forum we do not have that advantage, so what could be simply conveyed by presence requires longer explanations, hence my "wall of text" replies like this that are so annoying. (believe me I get that too)

I need to clarify this is no dismissal (on the contrary as I said, it is genuine appreciation), I know very well much of what I said can resemble copying mechanisms of a reactive nerve system going through trauma.

I would not understand this state before, probably it cannot be explained unless you experience it, so perhaps what I am doing is an exercise in futility or in part, an exploration that I am doing to better understand it myself, I consider that too.

It feels like when we were children, or when you fall in love: you live in the moment, absorb everything, there is no worry about the past or the future, there is only now and the emotions the "now"elicit with. They are not stuck, and there is no external object of love, is a deep rooted feeling that "everything is fine, and will be fine no matter what".

It does not mean "I don't care" (even when you read me saying that) because in truth, I care deeply, for the people close to me, for the people I meet, even for the people who are going through pain and I read here on the forum (no matter if BS or WS, I feel for both parts equally), and I feel sympathy and the pull for help if I think I can offer it. The things I stopped caring about is the outcomes, external validation, attachment to dreams and longing.

I pursue my direction, my path with clarity, it's ok if it will be bumps along the road, it's ok if I am walking it alone or someone else joins me, I accept it as reality and life, and I stopped worrying about that. Possibly because after what I survived my system really does not see anything as a threat anymore, crisis are waiting for us, but they are just manageable.

You can call it "surrender" in some ways, but is not passive, is energizing, I am centered on myself but at the same time, instead of losing my trust in other people (that happened during the trauma), I gained a deeper connection and understanding, I feel easy to like and connect with people like I never experienced in my life, because I take them like they are, the good, the bad they are all part of a person and I am glad to accept it without judgement, they are just fine.

Contrary to how much I wrote here, in conversation I mostly listen because the other person tends to open up naturally, and I have an understanding that most people have a deep need "to be truly heard" more than receiving answers.

When I was traumatized I lost faith in humanity.

Today that faith is restored, paradoxically more than ever.

Reading this description I still think it might be difficult to understand it, perhaps someone has experienced the same 'transformation' and can relate, this is the best I can describe it.

In conclusion, about my daughter:

- I saw how the dynamic of pretending to be the 'perfect couple' with unresolved issues was impacting her negatively. Yes we were ding a good job and helping her integrate some of her past traumas for the most part. But @BluerthanBlue nailed it, she WAS internalizing patterns (patterns of my wife no less), she was not truly regulated or safe because I was 'missing' during the depression and the parents both were not truly regulated, just pretending.

After my change she immediately changed as well. She genuinely feels safer, relaxed (it's something you feel not explain), my wife co-regulates from me and she co-regulates with both. She is learning to voice her emotion, the psychologist (the lead traumatized children specialist in the country) who follows her noticed the positive progress she is making in just few months as huge. It is looking good, I am making an impact on her mental and physical well being, that is why I feel inside I shall continue.

My wife:

- She changed deeply. Not yet fully 'healed' because when she is alone in the world her low self-worth, emotional detachment and 'mask' are still there. When she is with me she becomes a different person, she is confident, proud, she has boundaries, I can see that male validation makes her flinch now unlike before. Her therapist noted she is making progress, she is capable of setting boundaries (finally), to not let external influences drive her down and she is less searching for validation (in general, not only from men), and even her 'low self worth' has improved.

It is not enough for me to feel trust because she has still blockages. It's enough to accept her warmth towards me without rejecting it, I like it and enjoy it in the moment, with no further or future expectations. My approach to her is like more to a girlfriend than you have to a wife right now, because that's how it feels to me at the moment. I can still walk away. She knows it, and she is willing to expose herself to the risk no matter if by doing so she is making herself vulnerable.

I can appreciate that, I think it is a first real step towards R, but is too early to say if it will ever happen.

This Forum:

- For the first time I could read of people who went or are going through hell like I was. I never searched for this before, because honestly I felt deep shame for the person I became after the betrayal. When I say I am good with my life and at peace I really feel it, I am moving on, I am rebuilding (for myself first this time) and it is only by chance I bumped here way after my 'adventure' ended.

But I am curious by nature, because I never spoke with people who experienced betrayal trauma I had no guidance in my ordeal, I went through it completely blind and unsupported, in a swamp of emotions and I could never look back because I was terrified.

I can look back now, with curiosity trying to understand how or why I reacted the way I did and how it even presented physical and medical manifestations of those wounds.

I can look at it in the same way one looks at the stupid things they did as children or teenager, with a smile sometimes as it is somehow even funny (it was tragic but I still can see some dark humor into it). I started to wonder if it was my unique experience or flaws that caused it (when I say 'destroyed my life' is hyperbole to explained how deeply it impacted my life, in truth, I think it made me grow a lot as a person, in the end it did not 'destroy my life' I am finally adult). A

nd I read here for a while before posting, out of curiosity. I saw many stories, many similarities, many things I could relate. Things I managed to leave behind and achieve peace.

I have been focusing about the emotions that people experience, more than the facts of the stories. Because those just seem so commonly relatable and hold the key to resolution.

So I started posting, sharing, thinking it could be of help to someone (with the non zero risk of being misunderstood), but also wanting to hear from you because I think only by truly listening to others who shared similar experiences I will someday fully understand my old self better. That person was me but is so distant today that it feels like another life, I cannot go back to how I was then, and in some ways I mourn it as the loss of some family member.

He was carrying a lot of pain but a lot of things that held dear and valuable. The pain is gone, but all the rest followed with.

You all are helping to understand that part of me who died. And I thank you for that.

The divorce / separation

As I stand now, it is the unavoidable consequence I see. I am not walled to R with my wife. But I have my boundaries, she needs to be truly changed, to regain my trust for a real R to happen. She is trying hard, bending over backwards, but she is still not there.

So as for the present, @blue I see it as the natural outcome, I am not escaping from it, and I feel at peace with it. I have no rush to follow through though, I don't think it's avoidance, I need to understand all its implications, and above all how it will impact my little daughter.

In this too I am open to whatever outcome, I will decide when I feel like I have all the elements to make a decision with clarity, not an emotional one: if by then I won't feel my WW has changed enough to R, I will not think twice to take that step.

---

I tried to explain and give all the missing pieces here, hopefully this is the last 'wall of text' I produce here, I would like to be understood as much I like to understand.

And once again I sincerely thank you all for your support and sharing. I respect it and your personal experiences deeply, it is something I can really treasure.

Thank you,

M.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:23 AM, Wednesday, January 14th]

You can always remarry after a divorce. The reset would do everyone good.

It’s like if you’re trying to climb up a steep slippery slope And you’ve gotten stuck halfway up. You can keep scrambling and sliding and going a little bit up in a little bit down for a lifetime, or you can just go back down to the bottom, clean off the bottom of your shoes, back up, and take another run at it.

That was a lot to share, BackfromtheStorm, and I hope it does you some good to write all of this down. This too is a form of processing, internalizing, and integrating our experiences (or it is for me, anyway).

To your original post on the topic of divorce, I don't know if I'd call it a "natural" step, but it certainly is a common one and for good reason. Many of us (myself included) find that our feelings toward our WS change over time after DDay, and for some that change is up and down and might lead to R, and for others it starts trending only down and leads to D.

In my case, I felt hope after DDay1, and my WS seemed to still have genuine feelings for me. I reciprocated as much as I could - I still loved him - but after DDay2 (false R), I had to battle a lot of anger and resentment, and my reasons for trying R were based more on externalities and practical considerations than feelings. After DDay4 (confession of an EA 10 years earlier), I moved into a state of numbness and resignation, and I gradually lost any sense of love or attraction toward him.

It's only after last year's trial separation and then the decision to divorce that I'm starting to feel positively about my future. That's how I know it's the right decision for me, even though I still grieve what could have been if he had made different choices/had been a different kind of person.

I'm glad that you have found a place of internal peace with yourself and your circumstances. Waiting to see if your WS can change into a person you want to stay married to is also a common choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. As you say, you can choose to walk away at any time.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 10:48 PM, Wednesday, January 14th]

I'm glad that you have found a place of internal peace with yourself and your circumstances. Waiting to see if your WS can change into a person you want to stay married to is also a common choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. As you say, you can choose to walk away at any time.

NoThanksForTheMemories - thank you for your heartfelt reply.

I like that you approached your ordeal in a much healthier way than I did, you went through a grieving process and faced it, like one should do. You crossed pain land by protecting yourself. That is why you reached your clarity with yourself scarred but intact.

I took the most unhealthy road possible. I made the choice to protect her at my cost, to keep up her self image, that was a slip and it was my fault for failing to uplift her more. I thought I was strong enough to build our life, resigning from my life to start the process, carried on the weight without demanding her to face her issues. She relapsed right while I was doing that, ashamed, kept it secret for 15 years. I walked the same deserts of pain, though my identity did not survive it.

She gave it up when she saw I truly moved to her country, but the secrets and shame hidden eaten us (me the most, I felt it when she betrayed again, I just pretended), and the unfaced issues let her patterns intact, only now she is finally fighting this battle with her worst enemy (her broken self).

I learned the lesson that no matter how strong and driven you are, you need the other person to match you. You cannot drag them with you, everyone has the inner strenght to break from this kind of traumas and weakness, but is their healing, you can never heal someone who is running from it.

Yes I think it is true, since I never processed my journey consciously before I think sharing even if I am detached from the past, helps me to learn and integrate the experience, it was a valuable lesson and I learned a lot about relationships, men, women, psychology and my own history.

Also reading your journeys and the wisdom you all acquired through fire, is very valuable.
I am having the impression that each one of you who experienced this ultimate test of the deepest human emotions, and I mean BS and WS who are working on themselves, are way more open, way more honest than we all used to be before.

And that's a kind of beauty on its own.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:37 AM, Thursday, January 15th]

I have been catching up on your posts.

How long ago was the last d-day? Have you had multiple ddays between the 17 years and the now?

There are aspects to this you sort of sound numb to me.

I don’t ever think of separation or divorce as a tool. I think separation is helpful when one or both spouses are unable to provide an environment in which to heal. It can work well when the expectations and parameters can be agreed on and carried out. Like can you date or not date, when are we coming together to discuss new decision points. It needs to be laid out very clearly to promote emotional safety and abiding by a plan that is fully transparent.

Divorce, some people say "yeah do that and get remarried" maybe that delineation works well for some people, I know of one couple who used promise here years ago and they did that and it worked. Most of the time I would advise a divorce as a final decision. That’s not to say people don’t grow and change and time passes and they remarry. But the thing about divorce is you can’t use it as a tool because it makes it seem uou have control over what another person does.

Personally, when my husband asked for a divorce, I don’t think he was there yet. And he must not have been. However, had we executed it, I would have been intent with moving on with my life. It would not have manipulated me into another action. I do not think that’s what you are consciously asking, nor do I think you are trying to manipulate. I am simply saying if you ask for a divorce and proceed with it, I would don’t as a final end.

I have been catching up on your posts.

How long ago was the last d-day? Have you had multiple ddays between the 17 years and the now?

There are aspects to this you sort of sound numb to me.

I don’t ever think of separation or divorce as a tool. I think separation is helpful when one or both spouses are unable to provide an environment in which to heal. It can work well when the expectations and parameters can be agreed on and carried out. Like can you date or not date, when are we coming together to discuss new decision points. It needs to be laid out very clearly to promote emotional safety and abiding by a plan that is fully transparent.

Divorce, some people say "yeah do that and get remarried" maybe that delineation works well for some people, I know of one couple who used promise here years ago and they did that and it worked. Most of the time I would advise a divorce as a final decision. That’s not to say people don’t grow and change and time passes and they remarry. But the thing about divorce is you can’t use it as a tool because it makes it seem uou have control over what another person does.

Personally, when my husband asked for a divorce, I don’t think he was there yet. And he must not have been. However, had we executed it, I would have been intent with moving on with my life. It would not have manipulated me into another action. I do not think that’s what you are consciously asking, nor do I think you are trying to manipulate. I am simply saying if you ask for a divorce and proceed with it, I would don’t as a final end.

In our "love story" I had those DDays when they happened as a 'sixth sense' kind of thing, but I never confronted her (but once, after first R) because I cared more about preserving her self image than my mental health.
Last DDay was about 2 weeks ago, they were 2 just ordering stuff home (I get mine and also her old wallet and there is the contact of a guy she kept there. She swear it was just innocent flirtations, for a short period and she never slept with him because in the end she did not like him that much, but still, while we were together so you know). And again making order in our old usb sticks, searching for work files, pops up one o her old company video, her dancing inappropriately with a work colleague (which I already hated and she gaslight as "insecurity") touching sexually, neck kissing, breasts etc... again dismissed as "innocent because she did not sleep or wanted to sleep with him".

It is old stuff, when we were still on long distance relationship, after her first betrayal, before the second (she admitted to those 2, cornered truths not spontaneous disclosure). Stuff like this keeps randomly popping up, I don't even mind emotionally but I find some dark irony remembering how I sensed it and she gaslit me. Is stunning that even in front of the evidence she dissociates and says "is nothing wrong, it was nothing" but then when asked "If this was about me with another girl how would you...." and she realizes in shock "I would feel hurt..." then goes to self commiseration "I am disgusted with myself" and you know the drill.

I am not numb, though it may look like since I write about this stuff with detachment.

Thing is, betrayal is identity shattering. People heal by collecting the pieces and rebuilding their identity, there will always be the cracks, but they learn to integrate the pain into force and a more solid and mature identity.

I did not have that luck. I faced it alone, with no support of any sort, feeling it was my well deserved punishment for being "unlovable, unworthy", so I was never able to 'collect the pieces' of my shattered identity.

In my case she broke me beyond any hope of ever repair my old identity and ego. So the only way out, beside death, it was to let my identity and ego go. It was surrender, acceptance that she is like she is, and I can never return back to be the person I was, the identity I created through my life.

So I am left with my naked self, like a child, there is no filter, no expectations, no attachment, just the present and my direction. In some ways I feel better, is a different kind of integration, very pure, nothing can bother my peace because I am focused inside myself. I have all the validation, all the confidence that I need from me. Because I failed to be what the world expected me to be "a better person", I kind of devolved in being "I am who I am, take it or leave it, I do not care".

I am neither numb or cynical, I have deeper emotions than before, since I can absorb and taste them like a meal. Before I used to gulp 'the meal' and it stayed stuck in my chest. Now I can savor it, appreciate the complexity, feel where this emotion is coming from, what it mean, why I feel it, and digest it without judgement or reservations, so they pass, they are never stuck.

Even the painful emotions are not scary or bothering anymore because you can 'taste them' and appreciate all around, you accept things for what they are, with a peaceful certainty that "it is fine, it will work out".

I truly have problems in explaining how I feel because it sounds like some mystical bs and I would not have believed it before experiencing it, but it's really nothing magical, is pretty normal.
Think of it like being completely chill during a relaxing vacation, you are energized, relaxed, generally excited about what you can do and enjoying every moment with not a problem in your head. You might look numb and uncaring to an external observer, superficially, but you are "uncaring" just because you are having the best time of your day. Does it start raining? You probably laugh it off, wait for it to pass and enjoy the sun again, it does not ruin your day.

And you can spot immediately the other people on the beach who are enjoying their time or having a bad day, because you are so relaxed and fulfilled that you feel connected.

Each time is a wall of text, but we all experienced this kind of feeling in moments in our lives, when you do not have to perform and you are just you. It's just that is my baseline today.

No I do not think of divorce as a tool for manipulation, manipulation is trying to influence the other person against their will.
I realized that since my "switch" my commitment and limerence for her died with my old identity, and I begun to notice again how much female attention I attract (that never stopped, is one of the reasons my wife liked to "show me off"in public, she enjoyed other girls'jealousy while feeling safe that 'she owns me'; but before I just phased them all out, even when some was overtly approaching it was just irritating me) and for me it was a sign my body and mind moved on.

I said it already, I am not interested to pursue because I don't have need for validation, but I am again feeling attraction for women (my wife too, still, but she is not the only one is just 'a woman'). This means that what we had earlier is dead. I still love her, but I am no longer in love.

We can say I like her, I am not closed to her to meet me where I stand and (not rebuild) but create something new. I am just no longer available to wait forever, if she does not want or cannot meet me there, I can keep 'dating' her as a woman I like, but if one comes around and I develop feelings for her, then she is the one I will commit too. And when I am committed there is no other woman (this is valid for my wife as well). If that happen Divorce is the only option.

I do not pursue but I live a full life now, I meet and connect with a lot of people, that includes women. I see it is only a question of time before you meet someone who feels special. The only other alternative would be to self isolate and become co-dependant to her healing herself. I already did that, half my life, I tried and gave it my all. And it does not work unless she wants it, no matter what I do, she cannot change. She has the key.

There is another woman in my life, a little one, which stand above them all though: my daughter, little one, fragile and vulnerable. I have no rush because I have no urgency. I want to evaluate exactly the impact this can have on her. I want to make sure if that's the ending she will not be damaged forever. For her protection I am ready to pay any price, that's why I need to understand.

And believe me, I deeply wish for my wife to heal herself, to be happy and whole, with or without me if I am a bad influence on her life.

Anyway I feel is going to work out.