SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This whole debate on sex versus validation of that ilk. Either answer is going to hurt.

That was my point from the start of this thread. Ultimately I don't think it matters all that much. It doesn't really change the nature of the wound.

I was going to cite you, but I couldn’t remember what page of the thread I saw it on and I got lazy. 🙂

Been stewing in this one for a while.

For me, theres a few problems here. The betrayed on this are grappling with a stated preference/ revealed preference divergence they see in the wayward/former wayward.

In Human behavior there is a huge difference between what people say and what people do. Stated preference is the kind of information that comes from survey and self report.

Revealed preference is what they actually in fact do. And these often differ.

And to some extent, this is one of those times.

Of course sex/romantic attention is a source of sought external validation. To me thats saying nothing at all. I have both fairly often, hard as it might be to believe, and I find them to be a source of external validation. No affair needed.

Thats not the issue.

The issue is, there are legitimate pro-social sources of external validation that could come from such exotic sources as a fitness club. Platonic friendship. Achieving rank professionally. Mastering a craft. Having a sweet ass ability to wow loved ones with food. Sex with your spouse! Chess. Radio control airplanes, I dont give a fuck, theres means that dont involve corrupting your partners reality to get it.

And all of those pro-social, healthy mechanisms were bypassed for a particular, more specific, source and type of external validation. So dont act like the ends were in front of the means any more than they ordinarily are. They werent. Of all the choices, Sex with someone other than the one person you agreed you would spend the rest of your life giving it to, was the chosen delivery system.

And betrayed spouses know, not intuit, know, that all the agreed upon meaning of the shared lives and their personal psychological safety, were forsook so the wayward could delight in a cheap narcotic cocktail of dopamine fueled by desire and illicitness. Regardless of whether the sex was enjoyable or not. Likely, the wayward hoped it would be, generally people hope to enjoy the sex they have.

So, you know, we get a stated preference in the atomic blast radius of validation, with a revealed preference of sexual/romantic delivery. That doesnt coalesce well, for male OR female betrayed.

Analogy: from time to time, I eat a shitty frozen pizza. Its not particularly good but I get enough out of it to do it occasionally. I like nicer pizzas but sometimes I want something else……even though its not great or good for me. Melted cheese and greasy meat and crust, right now, please.
Is there a good reason I want to do this? No. No theres not.

Reality: I wanted to indulge in hot, cheap, garbage, that would fill me up and require little of me to get it, despite having better options and knowing its not good for me.

Sanitized explanation: I was so nutritionally and emotionally depleted that something bad was preferable to the emptiness I felt.

Now the bag of salad in my fridge wants to know why it wasnt good enough for me. Shit guys, what do I do? No Caesar, its not because of your croutons. I love your croutons. Yes, theres enough dressing. I love your dressing. Its not your fault I did this.

I cant tell him I wanted hot and greasy, he’ll expire! Caesar. I didnt do this because of anything you arent or dont give me. I just did this because somethings wrong with me. I wanted comfort. I was vulnerable to his cheese because I was empty, Caesar. But you are all I want now, if youll have me.

5bluedrops…chef kiss 😘

This post was excellent

I really liked this

I cant tell him I wanted hot and greasy, he’ll expire! Caesar. I didnt do this because of anything you arent or dont give me. I just did this because somethings wrong with me. I wanted comfort. I was vulnerable to his cheese because I was empty, Caesar. But you are all I want now, if youll have me.

It sums it up perfectly for every cheater I know.

Why would my wife or any other wayward really, be any different, it’s truly just a projection of our love.

Is just that besides being the salad bag, in a mirrored universe we are the hungry one and our wayward is the same salad bag.

And even if we meet greasy or 5 stars pizzas offered, we refuse kindly and go back loyally to our dear salad bag.

Never forgotten, always enough, enjoyed.

That’s probably why waywards tend to see betrayed partners as dumb and weak.

The issue is, there are legitimate pro-social sources of external validation that could come from such exotic sources as a fitness club. Platonic friendship. Achieving rank professionally. Mastering a craft. Having a sweet ass ability to wow loved ones with food. Sex with your spouse! Chess. Radio control airplanes, I dont give a fuck, theres means that dont involve corrupting your partners reality to get it.

And all of those pro-social, healthy mechanisms were bypassed for a particular, more specific, source and type of external validation. So dont act like the ends were in front of the means any more than they ordinarily are. They werent.

My problem that no matter how impressive of a thing I did, I didn't feel good about it unless other people were impressed and told me such. (Something I'm still working on... Like yesterday I made a kick-ass birthday cake, and I felt proud of it, but I still wanted everyone I know to see it and compliment it.

I worked pretty hard for the body I have, and I think it's statistically attractive to most people... But I perceived my husband to have lost interest/sexual excitement towards me-- the one person whose attraction really fucking matters to me-- so I was looking in the mirror trying to figure out why, and feeling bad about myself. (pro tip: don't pin your self esteem on anybody else, because it's a terrible idea 👍) Along came someone who talked with me for hours, made me feel interesting, was sexually excited about me, made me feel sexy again... And stupid me took the bait.

I sexted with him for the compliments. I wasn't gonna fuck him because I wanted sex with someone else; I wanted to experience a man feeling awestruck and lucky to get with me, and to feel desirable and powerful again, the way my previous new partners would. Whether you believe me or not, that's the truth for me.

That's not to say that's every spouses motivation. Just that I think people can want [sexual] validation without necessarily wanting the sex that provides it to them.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:41 AM, Friday, July 10th]

You can ask your spouse why they cheated, and if you were not self-aware,I can pretty much guarantee that their answer, whatever it is, will make you feel the same as if some stranger had walked up to you and insulted you. You will feel both as an attack on "you". Unless, you are aware of it.

Huh? I'm not following at all.

If your spouse cheats on you that will hurt a helluva lot more long-term than someone random cutting you off and then flipping the bird in traffic.

It also hurts far less for most of us to hear 'I'm not feeling the spark' from someone right after the first date, than it does to hear your WW say that she was never attracted to you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:12 AM, Friday, July 10th]

I think what Plane meant was that BS tend to automatically internalize the blame for infidelity committed against them, and so every reason a WS gives for their behavior, it feels like an insult towards the BS. Right?

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:14 AM, Friday, July 10th]

Morbs,

I see things that feel pretty common to a wayward, maybe your angle is more from the girl side but I think it might be still useful to address for all reading it:

My problem that no matter how impressive of a thing I did, I didn't feel good about it unless other people were impressed and told me such. (Something I'm still working on... Like yesterday I made a kick-ass birthday cake, and I felt proud of it, but I still wanted everyone I know to see it and compliment it.

It is pretty common when you have deep rooted insecurities bordering or not into low self worth, to crave compliments.

When you do something (without being tasked from ‘Above’) you do mostly because you want to. That’s obvious to everyone I imagine.

If you match your expectations you already know "I did a good work" and feel content, if you fail to you look at the result and feel ‘meh, I expected better, never mind this and that is where I need to improve, I will try harder next time’. In both cases you should have already all the validation you need from inside.

Your cake was kick ass, you know it. Even if it was bad, you put in the work and effort with a goodwill, it still feels good from the recipient that someone tried to make it special for them.
It’s the thought that counts, "You did it for me? Wow I really matter for you, I appreciate it even if it looks like scrambled eggs more than a cake, we can still eat it and laugh it out together, for you made this with love".

People who matter judge your intentions, they are not the customers of a bakery where the ‘performance and look’ counts. One can tell if you put love (and made a lovely mess) or you half assed something just because it was forced.

Compliments are nice because they are sometimes a mirror to confirm your own validation about something. It’s your validation that matters, compliments add but are superfluous, even criticism adds because it can reveal a blind spot that you can use to self improve.

And really even when you mess up a cake, someone who loves you and understands you made it with love will likely find something to compliment in your cake, just because they love what you put into it-> yourself.

I worked pretty hard for the body I have, and I think it's statistically attractive to most people...

I can tell you one thing: any woman can be attractive to any man. We have have an ‘ideal type’ of attractive woman in mind. That ‘type’ goes out the window immediately after we get struck by a woman simply because the ‘type’ is a template for reference when you have nothing on hand, an "object" or idealized fantasy for something missing in your life right now. When you meet a woman she wins every time, because she’s is a person not an abstract object. She will have always something that fits or is better than the ‘ideal’ and something who is in contrast, and contrast is often a multiplier of ‘beauty’ something that our limited fantasies are just not good enough to match in complexity.

This is not abstraction, I have felt for women that were really not my type (even some who I would consider ‘ugly’ for my standards) far more often than for women who ticked all the boxes of my ‘ideal female form’ (imagine the stereotypical sex symbol. Yeah, had those and often didn’t hold a candle to women who didn’t fit the archetype).
Because like everyone, my own fantasy sucks. Reality will never hold up to fantasy. And in the end you also find that often it’s your fantasy that truly falls short in comparison to reality, you are just attached to fantasy because it is an archetype you likely created long ago and carried with you. It’s familiar…. But it sucks in the end. 😁

I like the no bull approach, so yes, it’s true that conventional beauty does catch your eye and attention initially, but it is a superficial thing and fades really quickly when you approach a girl. believe it or not you start noticing flaws and counting, adding ‘down’ to the initial score. On the contrary you do the opposite when the girl is ’more average’ you start noticing beautiful traits and ‘add up’ to the initial score.

I would be a liar claiming appearance doesn’t matter, it definitely does give you an advantage, makes life easier in many fields not just ‘sexual attraction’. But while it is true that it opens doors, it’s not as important as people usually think it is.
Think of it like a vip pass to enter a club. Sure you skip the line and have the door opened to you immediately. But then you are exactly on the same dance floor with the people who did the line, exactly equal, you don’t stand out no more because you have a pass. After the door you’re equalized, if all you got is that you’re definitely going to be far less interesting than the others who did the line but are having fun and dancing well.

I know whose company I prefer once inside. The lovely people one, not the boring pass holder flaunting their ticket begging to be noticed.

You are working out, getting a nice body investing in your self image. That’s absolutely praise worthy (and it will be noticed), but the real goal to do that needs to be "I like myself this way. I want to improve myself here/there". It’s the woman watching herself in the mirror that needs to love her reflection (as love yourself, not empty vanity, internal validation ). Not the random guy salivating over the thought of how you look without your pants on.

Morbs loves the way she built Morbs.
And if someone doesn’t appreciate that, cry me a river, I (Morbs) don’t care.

Because I (Morbs) do.

Pro tip- when you like yourself others like you too.

But I perceived my husband to have lost interest/sexual excitement towards me-- the one person whose attraction really fucking matters to me-- so I was looking in the mirror trying to figure out why, and feeling bad about myself. (pro tip: don't pin your self esteem on anybody else, because it's a terrible idea duh 👍) Along came someone who talked with me for hours, made me feel interesting, was sexually excited about me, made me feel sexy again... And stupid me took the bait.

I know you don’t like to hear this, but as I told you before: I feel your husband has issues rooted within him from before being betrayed by you. It’s the feeling I get from what you write, being based on that second hand reflection it might be obviously mismatched from the real guy. Understand I don’t care to bash your husband, he is in my team we have the same BS-club card , I can only feel sympathy for the guy.

But I feel he’s having unresolved issues that could very well push him into becoming a wayward partner and make you a mad hatter.
I don’t tell you to scare you but as I don’t wish anyone to get our club membership, I am giving you an angle it’s worth to explore for both of you guys, so you can better heal and find peace in your relationship.

Feeling loss of attraction from your partner must be dreadful. Because if it is true then it’s over. If it’s temporary then there’s something else unspoken at play that is unaddressed and leaves you second guessing. Both of these signal a disconnect.

It could be that in addition to your insecurities that made you more vulnerable (you are introspective so I know you don’t see an excuse for cheating here, you already know you had other issues unaddressed and it was just a matter of time and chance , this is not a infidelity apology. I say because you are smart but I don’t want others to take it as a ‘cheating pass’) to other men’s sexual validation.

You wanted your man to feel and make you feel like that. You took a surrogate and that made you both bleed 🩸.

The day you will be already filled by your own internal validation, you will not even dream of craving it from some random guy, you will be so confident in yourself that you’ll do the right and only sensible thing:

Approach your husband and tell him what you notice and feel, and work out with him what’s wrong.
There’s just about nothing that you can not do or resolve in a relationship when there is love and self love.

I sexted with him for the compliments. I wasn't gonna fuck him because I wanted sex with someone else; I wanted to experience a man feeling awestruck and lucky to get with me, and to feel desirable and powerful again, the way my previous new partners would. Whether you believe me or not, that's the truth for me.

That's not to say that's every spouses motivation. Just that I think people can want [sexual] validation without necessarily wanting the sex that provides it to them.

I believe you, I believe my wayward and I believe the other waywards that are telling the same story.
I know where the emotional chaos can bring you. In a different way as a betrayed partner the chaos brought me to very dark places. Maybe they destroyed mostly me, but they weren’t any less destructive than the places you got too.
And even when your chaos is initially harming only yourself, there can still be fallout seeping into the lives of others and can really hurt them:
just imagine as example I was in med school doing surgery on a patient and getting a devastating panic attack (fun stuff those, got to up a dozen times a day, lovely "new normal ") while they were open. Fortunately I can bail out and get replaced by my supervisor, but what if I wasn’t a student practicing and I was already a resident surgeon? That poor patient was screwed.

Can’t even think what could happen if it’s not a minor surgery but a life threatening one… I know it’s a stupid example but it’s just one of many ways betrayal fallout can be devastating and leak into other’s lives.
I am sure there’s plenty of stories like that, that’s just my personal experience, I ended having to give up surgery because my girlfriend had the need to fuck some random rat, so she could feel "validation " while I was far away.

Think anyone gives a shit about this story of mine or any other bs similar story? No, nobody cares and eventually they add insult to injury. You just are expected to take it and swallow it as your personal failure.
I didn’t quit my medical career because I was bad, I was pretty talented. I realized I was in no condition to continue without risking to hurt someone someday. And it was my dream since I was 4-5 years old, coming from a poor background where is just almost impossible to get access to the chance to study that.

All gone and besides writing it here I wouldn’t expect anyone to listen or understand what I lived. Hell even here I expect some pushback or to be called a cheater or something, wouldn’t be the first time.

The most important point is that while you craved his sexual desire to fill the void you felt inside (from your husband loss of interest) the Affair partner only wanted one thing:

To fuck you as an object of his own validation. To claim you and steal you from another guy so he could feel better about himself, powerful, dominant.

That this was going to destroy the life and family you built didn’t bother him in the least most likely.

He just wanted his validation, like a dog marking a tree with urine as his territory from other dogs, he would ‘claim you’ from another man…. Just in a different way and way more offensive than what dogs do.

Compliments are nice because they are sometimes a mirror to confirm your own validation about something. It’s your validation that matters, compliments add but are superfluous, even criticism adds because it can reveal a blind spot that you can use to self improve.

I don't mean to make this about me (though I think it helps me to talk about it) but I think why I struggle so much with my own, internal validation being enough because of my childhood trauma. My step dad would a) constantly distort reality, and b) constantly ruin the moments I was feeling proud of myself, under the guise of encouraging me to achieve higher. If I brought home a report card with straight As, he would ask why they weren't all A+s. If I PR'ed on the hardest cross country course of my running career and came in 7th in the entire state, he'd ask me why I wasn't 1st. If I got an honorable mention for an piece I really liked at my school's art show, he'd ask why it wasn't best in show... So over time, I grew less satisfied with my own results unless they were as high/perfect as they could be, and I was always chasing that validation from him, because he changed the locus of control on who was the authority of my reality. And I would never get it, of course, or at least not without an asterisk attached to devalue it and cast doubt in me.

So now any time I feel good about something, a committee member will pipe up and go, "Are you sure? It's not perfect..." and another will say, "Yeah, you think it's good, but your opinion is biased. Do other people think it's good?" And then the rest of the committee will kind of nod and the mini-me's pride shrinks, and we go looking for that external validation of the goodness.

Lately I have been trying to remember that verse in Genesis where God does all his creating and then sits back to survey it, and declares it very good. If He made us in His image, why can't I just declare my work to be good?

believe it or not you start noticing flaws and counting, adding ‘down’ to the initial score.

This is how I generally assess attractiveness-- First impression, score it, recalibrate with detractions, arrive at final conclusion. I've talked with other people about this and they said it's a weird process, so it's nice to know somebody else does this lol.

I would be a liar claiming appearance doesn’t matter, it definitely does give you an advantage, makes life easier in many fields not just ‘sexual attraction’. But while it is true that it opens doors, it’s not as important as people usually think it is.

I used to enjoy all of the little perks of other people finding me attractive and the "halo affect" that comes with it. (Present day, it kind of embarrasses me when I suspect someone is nice to me, assessing me as better than I am, or letting me off the hook because of my appearance.) I used to wield my looks and sexuality to extract what I wanted out of men, and that made me feel powerful. Where other women would be horrified at being objectified/objectifying themselves like that, I would think, "Sorry you feel that way. You're missing out!"

As I got older and settled down with my H, other men's attraction to me mattered less and less, until anyone else's didn't matter at all. Then when he seemed to lose interest/excitement over me, I wondered if I still "had it." Some part of me panicked and wondered fretfully that, if my marriage ended, would I still be able to secure a high quality man, and quickly? (Abandonment issues at play there: Will I be okay if the one I love leaves?" ) Some part of me longed to wield that sexual power again. (connects back to feeling powerless as a child) Some part of me wilted with insecurity. These things made me vulnerable...

And now I think back on some of my experiences with men, and see that many of them were preying on my insecurities (AP included.) You say people like others when they like themselves, but I grew up with the "she was beautiful because she didn't know it" sentiment being romanticized, and men seemed to like me for being shy, "humble," NLOG... But pleased with their attention and sexually willing. You can see how that would attract the wrong crowd.

I know these are things to be fixed to keep me out of infidelity.

But I feel he’s having unresolved issues that could very well push him into becoming a wayward partner and make you a mad hatter.

I think it would be very hard for him to cheat on me, tbh. I think part of my wanting validation is wanting my assessment of his attractiveness and sexual prowess to be validated as well. Consequently, the idea of him being with other women doesn't inspire the same negatives feeling that other people seem to experience; I honestly like the idea of other women enjoying him too, and the idea that he can attract other women, and yet he is still mine; he has options and he has still chosen me as his wife above others... If he was sneaking around to have other relationships, I would wonder why he felt the need to take it underground, and we'd certainly talk about it. If I wasn't getting enough quality time, attention, sex, or provision because he was spending too much of any of those with someone else, I would make that known and ask for more/prioritization... But the fact that there was an OP wouldn't inherently bother me, y'know? Sometimes I even think it would be nice to have another woman to live with us, like a sister wife sort of situation... But that would have to be someone for both of us. 🌈

Approach your husband and tell him what you notice and feel, and work out with him what’s wrong.

I did try that, to be fair. And normally every time I express something like that, he bends over backwards to really try and fix it for me... I just don't think he absorbed my words because of what was going on with him, and neither of us were really cognizant of what was going on with him that was giving him low libido in general. But I just assumed he didn't care that I wanted to connect with him and feel wanted by him. I thought surely our marriage was "dead," and I cried and cried over it... It was an incredibly tragic series of misunderstandings.

I ended having to give up surgery because my girlfriend had the need to fuck some random rat, so she could feel "validation " while I was far away.

Think anyone gives a shit about this story of mine or any other bs similar story? No, nobody cares and eventually they add insult to injury. You just are expected to take it and swallow it as your personal failure.

I'm sorry this happened to you. If it makes any difference, I care. I spend a lot of time reading in the JFO section, even if I can't comment because, not only are there things to be learned, but also I think people's pains deserved to be witnessed, if only so they aren't alone with it.

The most important point is that while you craved his sexual desire to fill the void you felt inside (from your husband loss of interest) the Affair partner only wanted one thing:

To fuck you as an object of his own validation. To claim you and steal you from another guy so he could feel better about himself, powerful, dominant.

That this was going to destroy the life and family you built didn’t bother him in the least most likely.

He just wanted his validation, like a dog marking a tree with urine as his territory from other dogs, he would ‘claim you’ from another man…. Just in a different way and way more offensive than what dogs do.

Exactly right.

I think what Plane meant was that BS tend to automatically internalize the blame for infidelity committed against them, and so every reason a WS gives for their behavior, it feels like an insult towards the BS. Right?

No, not quite. The "blame" thing would be a follow on effect. It’s more fundamental, it’s the deep unspokenidea that who they are says something about who you are. You can intellectualize or rationalize that that is not the case, because it’s not the case, but in your gut…

When you ask for details and their reasons, don’t the answers feel like a punch in the gut, no matter what they are? A slap in the face? Really, an assault on your Self?

If you put your awareness on your body, your heart down into your gut, while you’re asking these questions, you can actually feel the answers hit. They say something, the words come in, then you feel the emotion arising, and then that starts to drive a response with you. It’s a good exercise to save some of that attention you’re giving them and put it on yourself when you have those discussions. You’ll see it if you do. At that point, you can shift your question from whatever it is you’re asking them, to the more important question, why is their answer hurting me in the first place? What is up with that?

Infidelity is about the most painful thing you can go through. How could it hurt that much otherwise?

Another example of the whole "attack on the self" thing is when someone finds out about the affair much later, and they’ll say "my whole past was a lie", and it will hurt. You see it here all the time.

Well, for it to hurt there has to be a belief that in living your life you’re telling some kind of story, that there’s some kind of important narrative being written that now has been proven false. Think about it, what is that narrative? Is it the story of "who you are"? Someone attacks the narrative, they attack the core of me.

…that will hurt a helluva lot more long-term than someone random cutting you off and then flipping the bird in traffic

A difference in magnitude for sure, but not in type.

Thank you for your kind words, Pippin. I have been meaning to post again on my main thread for a while, but have been very busy at work (hence the short posts 😉).

Morbs,

I really like to answer more in detail, however this is the last day of indulging with my girls (the little one and also my wayward ‘roomie’ ) some baths and sun in the old Mediterranean Sea.

Forgive me if I keep it short, it deserves more nuanced attention, but I am sure you understand sister:

If I brought home a report card with straight As, he would ask why they weren't all A+s. If I PR'ed on the hardest cross country course of my running career and came in 7th in the entire state, he'd ask me why I wasn't 1st. If I got an honorable mention for an piece I really liked at my school's art show, he'd ask why it wasn't best in show... So over time, I grew less satisfied with my own results unless they were as high/perfect as they could be, and I was always chasing that validation from him

Same story with my wife’s FOO. She is always excelling in everything, rarely she is not first, and when it happens then she is second or third.

But I think you know the drill: you got all 100/100 notes this semester? Good but 3 years ago remember you had only a 98/100 in one field, not all 100/100.

Mother and father both. That goes for everything.
Yes they did and partially do that still (her dad is dead) from a place of love. They’re low self worth people with their issues and wanting the best of best for their only daughter, so they projected on her since she’s born.

Resulting in her being pushed away every time she tried to show affection (particularly for her dad) when she was little. "Who does this silly things? Get to work, don’t waste energy on nonsense, earn it!".

Only getting crumbs when she excelled, briefly for a moment, and then admonished that is not enough. Because it’s never enough.

And fuck how much her FOO resented me. Poor, ambitious, driven, self confident and content of her how she just is? I must be a bad influence on her!

And also I confront them and don’t flinch and stand my ground against what I disagree? Unheard of!

Her dad mostly, her mom kind of liked me and likes me now, but mother’s judgement was always kinder than father’s towards me. Speaking of girlfriends here, I was always a favorite of older ladies (lucky me )

Yes I know what you passed.

This is how I generally assess attractiveness-- First impression, score it, recalibrate with detractions, arrive at final conclusion. I've talked with other people about this and they said it's a weird process, so it's nice to know somebody else does this lol.

Is not weird, it’s actually fairly common, especially for women. We all do it more or less subconsciously.

You are likely just more self aware, because you’re constantly scanning your self and brain.

I used to wield my looks and sexuality to extract what I wanted out of men, and that made me feel powerful. Where other women would be horrified at being objectified/objectifying themselves like that, I would think, "Sorry you feel that way. You're missing out!"

Again you might be more self aware and intentional than the average, but this is common sexual behavior.
I know, subconscious and plausible deniability push people to say "no I don’t do that ".

You do, and potential partners pick up on it. There’s a whole industry of appearance, fashion and makeup that thrives on this.

Men and women alike, we do that.

Is not bad, is the level of "intentional energy " we pour in that makes it ‘acceptable’ or ‘horrifying’.

The bull narrative plays into human nature like Goebbles did with thegood Germans’ and all his spawn play today with our delicate hearts (the parallel is intentional for its the very same doctrine, the current thing will always be for today’s ‘good Germans’ obviously 🙄 is the other who were wrong, we are getting it just right. And don’t you dare to question it! ).

Truth is we all objectify and are objectified by someone at some point. It’s nothing inherently evil, unless it stretches into fulll dehumanization and stripping away the agency of another, now seriously turning into an "object".

To make it more concrete, that’s what my wayward did to me with her infidelity. That’s souk crushing.
That she objectified me with her desire, fantasy and whatever isn’t offensive or horrifying. It’s natural and feels nice too, because to desire follows connection, where there’s sharing not objectification, that is temporary push to seek our more.

When isn’t dysfunctional.

In affairs the objectification is fully dysfunctional (of WS, AP and Bs too even if they are unaware).

I honestly like the idea of other women enjoying him too, and the idea that he can attract other women, and yet he is still mine; he has options and he has still chosen me as his wife above others...

The concept of pre selection, that is why we tend to find very attractive stars and popular people, more than they actually are.

It does make you feel good when others envy "your belongings " because the desire in their eyes makes you feel higher value.

I was a a ‘trophy partner’ for my wayward (still today but there’s more than in the past not just "object", she is proud not only of the superficial now), plenty of people get trophy partners, wives, husbands.

Pre selection is powerful status symbol for the ego.

Is not very good for happiness though.

If he was sneaking around to have other relationships, I would wonder why he felt the need to take it underground, and we'd certainly talk about it. If I wasn't getting enough quality time, attention, sex, or provision because he was spending too much of any of those with someone else, I would make that known and ask for more/prioritization... But the fact that there was an OP wouldn't inherently bother me, y'know? Sometimes I even think it would be nice to have another woman to live with us, like a sister wife sort of situation... But that would have to be someone for both of us. 🌈

I will not touch on this topic now, because you are not ready yet (respectfully sister, I think this is among the last things you will revisit spontaneously after healing and self growth) to hear it challenged, you will likely feel attacked and that’s not my intention in the least.

I also seriously never cared for ‘changing opinions of others’ kind of stuff. I give angles for the person who wants to review their own opinion as a tool only when they ask for it.

You didn’t ask for it, hence I just won’t give you a analysis beyond this: keep your mind open that how you view it today might be a romanticized version that might not find a match when reality confronts fantasy.

Keeping an open mind is generally the only thing I feel like nagging to others.
If someone is happy with how they are I don’t like to burst any bubble of bring discomfort into their happiness.

I did try that, to be fair. And normally every time I express something like that, he bends over backwards to really try and fix it for me... I just don't think he absorbed my words because of what was going on with him, and neither of us were really cognizant of what was going on with him that was giving him low libido in general.

It is tragic and credits to you for having tried before running away into an affair.
My wayward never tried to confront any issues with’us’ for she felt safe and still did it.

There’s some chaos he will need to address for himself (for you too) in addition to the betrayal chaos.
You healing will give you far more tools, energy and confidence to address marital issues whenever they present themselves in the future.

So theirs is concrete evidence that you will get far stronger in this regard too.

Now time for sea 🌊 and will see you all later!