SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You don't talk much about how you and your wife communicate and what your wife is saying or feeling about the situation. I understand if you don't want to speak for her or give an uncomfortable amount of personal information. It makes it harder to understand why she is acting the way that she is.

Maybe this is a situation where marriage counseling is appropriate.

I still hold that if this is a situation where your wife is openly lying to you (telling you that you are not allowed to stay at the hotel when that's not true) or avoiding or deflecting your conversations and concerns as you initially indicated, I would find that intolerable in a marriage.

Is she is openly telling you how she feels about the situation? Is it a difference of opinion on how you should behave in a marriage with the opposite sex? There could be middle ground. You sound like you don't have confidence in her abilities to act appropriately and to even know when someone is taking advantage of her. I don't really know how you put yourself in an equal partnership in marriage if you can't trust that your partner is acting on their own accord in their own interests. I'm puzzled.

Bigger, I don't recall how to cut & paste on here, but I really took your post to heart.

Days 2 & 3 done. She went out for desert last night with some lady and tonight she's having dinner possibly with one of the male 'artists' (and possibly another person) but insists it's only because the in-house dinner area is closed for a wedding reception. She was honest and frank and we talked it through. In fact, if the weather is good, she's going to walk alone and probably eat alone. It's more if the weather is bad as her car is in the valet parking garage and this guy is parked on the street. So he may be driving a small group.

Someone asked about our communication style. I'm a bit more open. She gets frustrated easily as she is more of a thinker type- so I try to be patient and let her choose her words. It works for both of us. We try and spend a lot of time together. Her parents passed away in 2024/2025 and since we have been closer and she is more at ease in life.

I don't recall how to cut & paste on here,

Refresher course:

Highlight and select what you want to quote, then paste it into the reply field. Highlight and select again then press the quote button above the reply field.

I hope you realize that I'm not saying you need to protect your wife, similar to what BondJaneBond argued above. I'm essentially saying the opposite. If you consider her so vulnerable and ignorant/unwilling to learn that she is incapable of NOT engaging in romantic entanglements outside her marriage, I don't know how or why you stay married to her.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. Many WS crave attention. I understand that. I also think most (all?) are capable of recognizing situations and staying away or getting out of them, as well as judging their situations and consequences of their actions. If they're truly not capable, it seems unfair for both parties to be in a marriage.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 3:32 PM, Thursday, March 5th]

If you consider her so vulnerable and ignorant/unwilling to learn that she is incapable of NOT engaging in romantic entanglements outside her marriage, I don't know how or why you stay married to her.

Bpguy- I agree with KD here. However, I still sort of wonder if you would just always have these concerns after what you endured?

I keep seeing her referred to here as your ws? Would you consider her a ws? Because in reality, I do not see you staying married now to anyone you would consider to be your ws?

Validation is something most people enjoy, especially professionally. It’s when there is an unhealthy need for it that things go wonky. I like my "way to go’s" at work. I work hard, I am smart and I like when others notice it or want to work with me on projects because the consider my input and abilities to be an asset. I even like when other women compliment my outfit. I think it’s healthy because I am not looking for their validation to replace my own internal care and love for myself. I can still love my outfit if no one else expresses anything about it, and I can still feel satisfied I do good work even if no one notices it. I simply do enjoy it when it is noticed.

I know that I would fall herein the ws side of the fence, but in my own life I no longer look at myself that way. I have healed the things within me that would make me replace someone else’s validation with my own knowing of my strengths, and I feel full acceptance over my weaknesses.

I do not disagree the need for validation can be a red flag but feel the differentiation of what’s healthy and what’s not. Just like if you asked me what I think about shame, I would say in a healthy person having shame can be healthy and productive, yet someone with toxic shame is a danger to themselves and others who try and have a relationship with them.

Thanks for any clarification you can give us. I totally understand your unease btw, and I think she should be open and honest and I personally would have some concern over a unilateral decision in which concern for my mental well being wasn’t given, so I don’t want to give the impression I don’t see your side or that I am taking your wife’s side. I am simply trying to add some balance to the conversation, which I hope you understand that.

I too like what bigger has had to say on this thread and think there is work in this relationship that should be done, but I am having a hard time feeling like it’s just her or just you. All marriages take work and effort, and when you are married to your best friend and things are easy that’s when we sometimes get into automatic mode. I think that’s been the single underlying issue through my own marriage. Everything flows easily so when we have these issues that come up periodically we haven’t always dug into them. I do not feel that caused cheating though. That was caused by not digging into my own shit, and if you can’t do that you are unlikely to do it in your relationship either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:24 PM, Thursday, March 5th]

Bpguy I strongly recommend investing in individual counseling for you

bpguy - I probably missed some things on here, but was it ever clearly defined why she did not want you to go? IIRC, she seemed pretty adamant about that and it seemed like both a departure from the usual and she sounded pretty definite about it.

bpguy - don't go by anything she writes in a journal. She probably knows you would find it or read it anyway.

I hate to say this, but I think you've set yourself up for a bad situation by accepting this. You seem to think that your fears or suspicions are caused by some problem on YOUR side, that you have some kind of abnormal reaction because of what you experienced before. While I don't doubt that influences your feelings, your concerns are absolutely normal and would be shared by most people. I am NOT, and never have been, a jealous person. It just isn't part of my make-up to automatically think like that or fear it....not without real reason. With real reason, my reaction is and has been anger. But cheating is not something I anticipate or worry about in relationships...I'm not by nature a watcher. I say and emphasize this because....I really DO think you have something to be concerned about here that would concern most people, and it's NOT about your past trauma. If my spouse told me he wanted to go to a several day conference or whatever without me even though we had done things like this before, especially after I knew he had already been flirting with someone who will there, I would raise the issue of cheating and frankly, I'd insist on going because there's a good likelihood that something will happen. The stage has already been set.

This is not about your personal fears or past history, this is not some kind of test of you and your fears. This is a very reasonable concern that most people would have in this situation - now when she comes back, you're not gonna know what happened and you're not gonna find it in some book, and a lot of things in the future will be colored with a meaning they might not have had if you had insisted on going. I saw some reference that maybe they don't allow spouses - I highly doubt that and if that's true....it's because this organization, IMO, expects people to cheat. And they often do at these things, it's very common. It's very contained, no one says anything, it's not ongoing, they have beds and accommodations right there.

I don't want to beat you up over this decision, I DO think it was the wrong one, but more than that, I want you to understand that YOUR CONCERNS ARE NORMAL, NATURAL AND CONCERNS THAT MOST PEOPLE - EVEN ME, WHO IS NOT A JEALOUS PERSON - WOULD HAVE. This is not about your past experiences, most of us would feel concerned in this situation.....because concern is a reasonable thing IN the situation with your wife's past flirting, the attendance of this other party, her unwillingness to have you go, and the accommodations and setting that are just simply available there. The problem is NOT YOUR FEARS OR ROOTED IN YOUR PAST EXPERIENCE - what you're expeiencing is absolutely normal and something MOST PEOPLE WOULD FEEL. Because it IS a real concern.

I just don't think you're gonna trust her after this. I wouldn't. I think the way she's handled this inherently is a violation of trust. Don't whitewash things because you blame yourself. She's handled this badly.

[This message edited by BondJaneBond at 7:10 PM, Thursday, March 5th]

I feel I can see both sides here. My H and I often piggy back onto each others’ work travels , it’s less about spending time together, or being in each other’s pockets, and very much more about getting free accommodation to see the world! Tbh, though, at this kind of cloistered work gig, a retreat, I would feel more than a bit smothered and worried my H was ‘needing to be in my pocket’ if he proposed to come. But I do understand also the sting of rejection bqguy is feeling and the very real nature of the anxiety and the trigger. Especially if his wife hasn’t felt able to articulate her need for independence and autonomy on a retreat due to trying to protect his feelings. Not cool, given her slightly waywardish banter previously. It feels therefore the lack of trust might be two way. A good conversation is due. (As to suggestions of saving her from herself, good god…)

Edie, my understanding, which may be wrong, is that the wife was flirting via texts with someone who will be at this conference (and that usually they do attend these things together). Now, my understanding may be wrong, but if that is the situation - she's flirting with someone already, he's at the conference, she doesn't want her husband to go which is unusual and she's seems adamant about it too, all of that is very suspicious to me, and I would have insisted on going, as I'd want to know what the hell was going on. I don't trust anyone that much, and I don't think it's reasonable (or common) to have that level of trust. My main point in my last post, was that I think BPGuy was more blaming himself for not trusting his wife automatically because of his own past traumas with infidelity, rather than realizing that his distrust, was actually quite a normal (and healthy) thing that most people would share in this circumstance. I have to wonder if she just returns after this if he's gonna always wonder what if anything happened because she's not gonna leave some journal around for him to read....unless she wants to hurt him or end the marriage....and I would not rely on anyone's honesty to that extent. People tend to underestimate their beloved spouse's ability to lie. My own husband recently told a big lie to my face that I KNEW was a lie and you would never have known....if you didn't know. I recently saw a political figure tell a story very convincingly, that was later proven to be 100% a lie - the point is not the story, but that you would NEVER think this guy was lying. Often times you just can't tell how well someone can and will lie when there's something big at stake. I think there are a lot of people who could probably even pass polygraphs.

I believe in "Trust but Verify". Most of us need some degree of objective truth.

hikingout, if I have referred to her as a WS then I was overstating things or maybe thinking of my XWW.

I finally got to the bottom of things. She was not wanting me to come out there partly as this is her honor and partly as if she made friends with a guy she didn't want me to see it and think more of it than there really was. She has apologized and we are having dinner Sunday night there.

I thinks stars are aligning and I remain in love with her. We played on each other's weak areas and now seem to be back in tune.

I really, really appreciate everyone here. Most of which are wiser than I.

That guy,

I was confused about why you post made me uneasy and couldn't immediately put it into words.

I now think the reason is that if your W cheats or not your trust in her will be less.

My WW also told me I could trust her yet a small touch on the shoulder of some guy at church when he, for a change dressed nicely, is something I just can't forget.

Small things but cumulative

Apologies- I asked that because a lot of posters are referring to her as your ws. I was just trying to understand if that’s how you see her.

It’s concerning though she made friends with someone and felt the need to hide it. I don’t mean that I think that means something is going on. I am surprised you are relieved?

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:24 AM, Friday, March 6th]

Hmmmm. Why lie though? Thats no small thing in a relationship, especially one where trust is a little fragile, even if a seemingly small lie. It seems it was about autonomy, but that’s a fallacy; if she lies, there’s no real autonomy, so the lying is worrisome, either just really stupid or a red flag.

So instead of helping her and protecting her FROM HER WEAKNESS, you're setting her up with an opportunity for failure. If she fails and gets involved with somebody, whoever, part of that is gonna be your fault because you're letting it happen. I know we can't be there all the time, and people have to strengthen themselves, but this is NOT the way to do it, and this is NOT the opportunity. You've setting her up to fail. You should be there to support her and help her to prevent anything and to grow.

@ jane: this is codependency IMO. I feel a quite differently. i’m not my FWS"s keeper or guardian and was very much not interested spending any of my ‘one wild and precious life’ policing him, if he couldn't police himself, so i definitely wouldn’t go along as suspicious wife to see what was going on, and certainly wouldn’t believe anything was my fault if anything happened. But i might, probably would, verify the facts re the hotel policy. And then would have to contend with the fact of the lie.

Good luck.

Edie....he doesn't want to see it. So, that's the way it is. We all make our choices in life. If you don't want to see it, you don't see it.

I finally got to the bottom of things. She was not wanting me to come out there partly as this is her honor and partly as if she made friends with a guy she didn't want me to see it and think more of it than there really was. She has apologized and we are having dinner Sunday.

So her rationale is that she is being honored for something and that's why she didn't want you there? She also didn't want you there in case she made friends with another man?

Why wouldn't she want you there if she is being honored for something? And her excuse about not wanting you there in case she made friends with another man is ridiculous

So let's say she did make friends with another man and continues to communicate with him, doesn't tell you about it, you find out about it down the road. How will you react to discovering that wife is yet again communicating with another man and hiding it from you?

I think down the road as you rehash this time and time again you might start to see it in a different light. I also believe she allowed you to join her on Sunday because whatever she wanted to do she did prior to you arriving

Edie, my understanding, which may be wrong, is that the wife was flirting via texts with someone who will be at this conference (and that usually they do attend these things together)

That is not my understanding at all.

Years ago, she took a class that the teacher reached out afterwards. He sounded flirty, I do not think she did if I remember correctly. BP didn’t like how friendly/forward the guy was, asked her to stop communicating with him and she did. There was speculation maybe she was hiding he would be at the conference, but none of that seemed to be the case.

He didn’t say he would normally go to this specific thing but that on some other trips she does he tags along.

I have been in this world. Being honored means that you are going to be the center of a lot of networking opportunities which is huge for a writer who hasn’t been able to break through to the other side. You are being featured amongst people who can make a huge difference in getting your work out. You need to be able to court people who may be able to trade services such as reading your book to provide feed back, getting names of editors, collaborating in various topics. It’s exhausting.but it’s a business like everything else and that means who you know and the relationships you build is what is needed.

I never was honored, but even then I didn’t take my husband because he would be miserable there and I would have no energy to entertain him and then it would dampen the experience because then I wild feel badly he wasn’t having a good time. It’s a 12-14 hour a day work in a row kind of trip.

Also, when I write I need quiet and no distraction. Usually these are part of a writing retreat and some of the work is writing. I used to have to stay up all night in order to finish my book so that he would be in bed. Otherwise I couldn’t get into the flow.

Because BPguy is sensitive to her talking with other men, she also probably didn’t want him to make those interactions awkward as it’s a networking thing and you do need to form professional relationships that are strategic and not based on gender.

I find it to be a problem that she befriended someone new that was male and was hiding it. Being open is the better path towards building a comfort level and trust. It makes me feel like she will lie to him when he won’t like the answer.

She needs to work on her avoidant tendencies. I do not think any dishonesty in a marital relationship is normal or healthy.

And on the other hand, given that she has never cheated, probably doesn’t intend to and they have been married a significant amount of time, I imagine it may be frustrating/defeating not to be trusted. He just confirmed he would not call her a ws, and that to me says he agrees she has never cheated. He is nervous of her for the reasons he listed and because he has been there done that. But I feel like in a relationship some freedom is okay, in the way of pursuing a hobby or a career.

I think bpguy agrees with that last statement and that’s why he is being quick to forgive. But they need to work on this and use it as an opportunity to understand each other more deeply and do some more healing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:17 PM, Friday, March 6th]

Edie,

I feel a quite differently. i’m not my FWS"s keeper or guardian and was very much not interested spending any of my ‘one wild and precious life’ policing him, if he couldn't police himself, so i definitely wouldn’t go along as suspicious wife to see what was going on, and certainly wouldn’t believe anything was my fault if anything happened. But i might, probably would, verify the facts re the hotel policy. And then would have to contend with the fact of the lie.

I agree with you completely. But I do realize that my husband currently knows my boundaries and the consequences. He 100% knows I will be out of the marriage with this if it's a direct lie. He knows I will be out if he has a colleague who is calling him an endearment (I consider the MY in "my little verb" a direct term of endearment) and doesn't shut it down immediately. I was not so clear on that before all of the infidelity mess. Maybe I didn't exactly know myself how I would deal with it back then. I'm not sure that thatbpguy or his wife are communicating their boundaries or just negotiating them. It may be more nuanced then I thought earlier.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 8:33 PM, Friday, March 6th]