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They look up to you? Well, they can watch you leave too and they can know that they had a hand in ending your marriage. If they have any concern for such things. They sound pretty clueless to me.

They sound pretty fucked up to me.

Hearing relatives joking about sucking and fucking each other and laughing it off is fucked to shit! (yeah I know, through ‘indirect’ teasing, plausible deniability and such. But are we naive kids or adults? Bullshit is still shit).

On the other hand OP, you wrote about the cousin looking up to you and putting you on a pedestal? Is this the same cousin joking about filling holes and blowjobs with your wife we are talking about?

More than looking up and pedestal, seems like the butcher caressing the goose neck, praising her over a chopping bloc, with the knife ready behind his back.

I don’t doubt the family likes you but the over the top incestuous banter as a fun time where you are obviously uncomfortable and you have to leave, signals a great lack of respect in my view.

They’re her family of origin, not yours, don’t be too confident they will ever have your back if it turns out that "filling holes and swallowing body parts " between cousins will ever turn out to be something more than just a very inappropriate and disturbing "joke".

You need to put your self first. They are not going to.

Most of the responses you've received have been from the BS perspective, so I hope you're ok hearing from a WS.

Before I had my affair, which is many years ago now, I was absolutely convinced that I would never cheat. I loved my BH (who was still my boyfriend at the time). I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't want to leave him. I didn't see myself as the type of person who would betray him. I was nothing like my own mental stereotype of a cheater -- someone who enjoyed lying or got a charge out of sneaking around behind their partner's back. Ironically, I think that vision of myself made me more vulnerable, not less, to the slippery slope of infidelity.

My self-deceptive logic went like this:

- I do not want to do anything wrong. That would be out of alignment with my values. I'm frankly disgusted by people who fuck around and lie to their partners.

- Since I'm fundamentally ethical and would never betray the person I love, I not only won't do anything wrong, I can't do anything wrong. It would upset me too much. There's a natural guardrail for my actions.

- Since I have that safety net, this flirtation is by definition harmless. The OM knows it can't go anywhere as well as I do. That makes what I'm doing "safe."

Once I got in this mindset, I started to nudge the needle, just a little bit at a time. Standing near the OM and laughing was fine; after all, I talked and laughed with friends. I hugged friends. I stayed up late talking to friends. I made little gifts for friends...

It should have become obvious to me that I didn't get jealous about people showing romantic interest in my friends. I didn't hang around places hoping my friends might turn up. I didn't dress more carefully for seeing friends. But cognitive dissonance -- the stress that a person experiences when their deeply held belief is contradicted by irrefutable evidence -- is an established psychological phenomenon. People experiencing it don't typically adjust their belief. They adjust the evidence to fit their belief.

I think this is likely to be what's happening with your wife. She's telling herself that her cousin is so off-limits that the idea of a crush on him is not just laughable, it's blasphemous. The only way to explain her behavior -- to you, but more critically, to herself -- is to file it under the heading of harmless family interaction. And if you challenge that with logic, she will double down on outrage at what you're implying.

I'll end with a caution: eventually, my attraction overcame my scruples. We have, sadly, seen affairs between related people here before. If you're wife's cousin was interested in escalating, I'm not nearly as sure as you are that she wouldn't make a move.

Yes you've all been helpful. And opened my eyes. Not sure anything enlightening, but you've all confirmed that this is fucked up and i'm not wrong to be disappointed/concerned/upset. Even right now as i type this, i can see her imessages on our mac computer. She doesn't know that her messages pop us since she is signed into that computer. She went to take a bath 5 minutes ago, so i stepped into the office and logged onto the mac...right away she texted him "do you like taking baths."

I'm starting to believe physical contact could evolve, and it would still shock me. Up to this point, she's made all the inappropriate comments. He would point to a bowl and say "i could use a good blowjob, would you give me that." Borderline, but pointing at a bowl to emphasize not-an-actual-blowjob. But her response was too much. And the cornhole jokes about putting it in the hole, were from her. He never said anything, he just laughed. The text messages, are initiated by her. His responses, even the ones i'm reading in real time right now, are innocent. But why would she go take a bath and instantly start texting him? Any guy while soaking in a bath is odd to me.

Sawyer,

You are not crazy for thinking what you think and the way you say "open my eyes even if not enlightened " makes sense.

Here’s the thing, and I am willing to bet the "usual body part" here : I am certain your gut is stirring and has been for a while. I would even hazard that it begun immediately, if not even before this sexual banter started.

This is because your gut knows, your instincts know. Our animal side is extremely strong in picking up energy shifts from those around.

The mind and attachment later fight that instinct with logic, partly due to denial and partly due to our mental constructs and internal criticism, trying to keep us in check from overreacting and overreaching.

Basically your primal self gets it immediately, then your ego steps up and says:

"wait, if I get this wrong I might ruin my image, reputation, my status quo, it means I’the ego’ have failed to make my validated impression on the outside. And that’s not possible because I ‘the ego’ am perfect, or close to perfection, definitely better that the weak person true self from whom I emanate from. There must be a different interpretation where what he feels is wrong and I am still admired and validated "

And so your internal fight begins, you enter fight/flight mode, resulting in the cognitive dissonance from your instincts and emotions screaming at you and your ego shushing them down.

The body and inner self are suffocated by our mask, and the mask is what we wear day in and day out, the closest to our awareness, as we built it up to smooth our natural excess and strengthen our vulnerabilities and project a persona that we deem "more acceptable " to others in our life.

So of course we follow the mask, the ego’s advice, until now it always served us well, we have grown up with it, carefully building and perfecting it for the most part of our life sine we stopped being little children.

But the body and your primal self, won’t shut up, it’s screaming and this internal battle is tearing you apart.

Why you feel "eye opening "? Because you see your instincts echoed from detached outside perspectives, that tips the scale between your internal battle Ego v True Self and your mind starts saying "shut up your voice Ego, maybe it’s you who are off track"

What bravesirrobin said is resonating in a more polished way to the example I gave you earlier.

Basically when a woman is "getting cooked" before anything happens. She has to get to the stage of "predisposition" to allow herself to be lead down a sexual path even if she knows that is inappropriate or risky.

At first her body responds, but the full awareness comes later, and if it is something that she feels inappropriate (but her body already responds to) you can still pull her in (or better she allows herself to be pulled in) if you make it so that she maintains plausible deniability about just what kind of dance you begun dancing (or she makes excuses for herself, in that case you have to do nothing)

It’s not rational or calculated and if you point her out she might be genuinely shocked. The thing is her body responds sexually to you already, that’s not infatuation yet, is just openness a "maybe".

Nothing more than subtle right now, think about you making an avance to a girl with "want to dance with me?" And she takes your hand.

It’s still in the realm of innocence but there’s an opening from here, a fork: keep it friendly and playful or escalate sexually.

And escalation looks like this: keep it playful, make "inside jokes" a ‘little secret fun thing between us’, you always make her feel safe and stimulated, break the touch barrier so her body reinforces the first response, lock eyes, smile silent communication and I could go on…. But the important part is she must feel safe and have her emotions stimulated by the interaction. It starts innocently and how you lead gathers momentum, I would say "slow" but that’s not necessarily true, it can speed up really fast.

Then depending on how far you can escalate sexually within today’s boundaries of her still feeling safe, you can either pull back or go all in.

Leave her wanting more after giving her enough to want more, or seal the deal when there’s a good moment.

If you unsettle her and she ever feels unsafe, that’s not necessarily the end, but it will set you back. Negative emotions are the brakes to the innuendo, positive emotions keep it up.

(About this above I will put a note: this is not a generalization, it is straight from my ‘playboy book’, so it’s my personal interpretation and experience. Wether I did for myself, or was a wingman for male friends or female friends, this is what I know is working, so no, I am not generalizing on people, it’s how I play "the game". It’s just my opinion. I know the script so well that I am aware how you can turn it from seduction into manipulation, this is a warning to the OP not an advice).

And look here’s the thing that is interesting: both the guy and the girl can follow through this innuendo completely unaware of what they are doing.

It’s just energy and situation one moment leading to another. They both can end up cooked pretty fast almost subconsciously.

They play the same game, they’re just not aware.

Your wife is always feeling safe and shielded by plausible deniability all the time with her cousin. She’s experiencing a lot of positive emotions, she is always left wanting more, that’s why her mind keeps going to those "happy moments " because it makes her feeling good and excited, and at the same time she’s always telling herself "this is innocent fun, he is my cousin, I am not really going to give him a blowjob or allowing him to ‘fill my holes’, it is just fun…. I wonder what he’s doing right now…" (her body responds but she has plausible deniability).

So yes, I am not implying they did have sex or they had (though not excluded) or even that they are consciously planning to do it in the future.

But they are dancing that very dance.

They are predisposed.

Your wife’s body is predisposed and her emotions are too in that place, all over the place.

That’s why you see the inappropriate chemistry when they look at each other, that’s why she thinks about him all the time (especially when her body was pleased by the feeling of a bath or shower or whatever gives her happy chemicals, she started to associate them to the moments spent with him), that’s why their bodies are a bit too close a bit too intensely, a bit too long when they hug.

Her body wants more even if the mind denies it, and his body you are damn sure wants it too (you are a guy, I don’t have to tell you what we feel when a girl gets too close to us and we don’t dislike her).

Maybe they are holding the line simply because they are cousins and that’s incest. This is the best possible interpretation I feel to give you.

They didn’t cross that line yet perhaps (but all others were crossed already). But damn sure their bodies are not caring about their blood ties in the least this moment.

Only restraining keeps them from putting their jokes in practice.

And I wasn’t sure if it’s not just cruel and shut up, but I don’t think it’s free sadism at this point.

This is deeply unpleasant and hopefully it’s just wrong speculation, coming from a different experience. When you are horizontal ladies tend to think a bit more than we do.

I mean not a shocker as we are almost brain dead in those intimate moments, but I have been with a lot of ladies and I was always amazed the kind of shit that goes through their heads in some moments of the intimacy. That’s why they tend to appreciate the moments when their mind goes blank and overwhelmed and they just let go.

This is weird for us to understand because if our mind was wandering around the same in those moments we would be… "disarmed". This is found in a lot of psychological induced ED, performance anxiety etc.

It’s often worries, insecurities or even random stuff, but there’s sometimes a darker side to it.

As sometimes guys happen to have sex with a woman and think about another one, that can be true for women as well.

They may use your body but be in a different place with fantasy sometimes.

When this comes to our partners it’s extremely painful to even think about, but no matter the sting, it could clue you into what might be truly going on in her head.

As gently as something so uncomfortable could be asked… you mentioned you have a very active sexual life. Did you ever notice a pattern change or some subtle shift in passion and intensity if she is performing oral or the other stuff she ‘jokes’ about with dear cousin when she is with you and freshly off some cousin chat or interaction?

I don’t say that to gross you out, I had a lot of female ‘friends’ as in we do have sex but there’s no commitment. It’s not the same thing as relationships for it’s transactional, but the flip side is you get a lot of honesty about sexuality you wouldn’t have from a partner that fears to hurt you.

And sometimes a girl in that "relaxed" comfort zone gives you insight into their heads during- before - after.

The kind of confidence you won’t get otherwise. "I was having sex with this guy and was thinking of you/ wished it was you " or the opposite "while we were doing I was imagining you were that other guy and thought how it would be ".

This stuff is so unthinkable between us and our partner that’s something it would be the nuclear unspoken bomb. Likely a relationship ended.

You wouldn’t confess it to your wife, she wouldn’t confess it to you.

But you can "sense" it.

This was a lot of uncomfortable stuff packed all in one, it was uncomfortable for me to write so I am not sure how you can receive it.

It is a different angle for how your wife might have been still ‘faithful’ (physically at least) as you seem to feel, but also trying to make sense of the red flags and the emotional affair and weird sexual tension in this mess.

I hope theirs is some useful information that you can use to navigate this nightmare, and it wasn’t just pointless free pain.

I hope you get your clarity.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:51 AM, Thursday, July 16th]

She climbs into a bathtub and texts her male cousin asking if he likes taking baths?!

I'm at a loss for words

But why would she go take a bath and instantly start texting him?

Because she was thinking about him. It’s the kind of thing an infatuated teenager would do.

I tried to come up with a single woman I might feel comfortable texting that to (other than my wife). Couldn’t.

I renew the suggestion to get the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

Opportunity is what i want to create. They have always had people around, never alone. When he's here in 2 weeks they will have 3.5 days alone. Of course i mentioned that i may take a day or 2 off to hang out and she's totally fine with it. Thinks we could explore and have fun. Which is why i keep saying i don't think she has/will be intimate with him. In her mind, the attention she's giving him is nothing and harmless. She sees all of it as letting her guard down for a few days and having fun. Her late night texts are just checking on him. I find all of it inappropriate and walking a fine line. And that's why she says i'm being jealous. If you love someone, you don't walk a fine line. Especially if they've expressed a concern. You stay away from the line.

Giving them an opportunity, multiple opportunities will reveal they are/will be intimate in which case she cannot deny. I'll have it on video. Or it will reveal that they are not intimate and they are, as she says, deeply connected and all of this is an inappropriate emotional affair. Which will still be addressed once he leaves. I just don't want to say anything until after they have an opportunity to go as far as they want in the safety of my home with everyone at work far away.

4 pages of posts from very respected SI community members.

I’m crossing my fingers for SBL that you are not wrong here and nothing inappropriate happens.

I don’t think there is anything else we can say or do to show our concern for you and how this is a very unhealthy situation for you.

You've all been amazing. She has been gaslighting me and it's near impossible to argue with someone like that. What she's been doing/currently doing is worse than if she were to be intimate with him. If she gets physical, i have my proof and no "you're just being jealous" conversation will be necessary. I can leave. If she's not physical, i will continue to battle with her on what is appropriate and what is not and i will lay down my boundaries. She can accept the terms and conditions, or i leave. Before joining this forum and getting your insight, i did not have the courage to be in this mindset. Thank you.

SBL,

Let’s say you’re right, that she would NEVER get physical with any other man.

Now let’s look at what she is actually doing, right now.

-openly having sexually explicit verbal flirtations in front of anyone and everyone, including you

-openly engaging in hugs that are far too long for YOUR comfort in front of you and everyone else

-ignoring you when he is present

-sending and receiving flirtatious and sexually-charged texts with him

-gazing adoringly at him while ignoring you

-dismissing any concerns you have expressed regarding those behaviors.

Now you see her texting him, while she is naked and in a tub, asking him about taking baths.

These are ALL indications of infatuation. These are ALL inappropriate behavior with any person outside the marriage - REGARDLESS OF INTENTION to "physically cheat".

Because at this point, each and every behavior she has shown towards him are her teasing with the danger and taboos involved in any possible sexual interaction between the two of them.

She is teasing HERSELF for the sexual excitement she gets from the interaction with him. In turn, he boosts that excitement by playing along.

This is ALL assuming neither of them have any intention of becoming "physical".

Newsflash: she was already "physical" with him while she was in the tub, because that was her engaging him in a fantasy and she likely pleasured herself while in that tub with him on her mind.

My guess is that the plan is already in place for the next step while you’re gone.

Those cameras may catch activity that you will never be able to unsee.

A word of advice:

Creating the opportunity doesn’t mean they will take it.
If it’s not yet a physical affair it’s a shot on the dark if and when THAT line will be crossed.

It doesn’t mean that all the lines that were crossed don’t matter. It’s already in the realm of emotional affair.
I know her denial makes you crazy to the point that you may almost hope to catch them on camera during penetration.

And about this a plea:
Friend, don’t do that. Seriously don’t and then don’t, don’t, don’t,don’t. You have no idea what seeing your woman having sex on camera with another man, will do to you

Unfortunately I do.
You will be vomiting your soul if that ever happens.

If you’re persistent to get her on evidence and you do actually get some, at the first sign, pause the video and never ever watch it.

Trust me on this one.

Besides that, coming back if she is in denial and he is in denial they might still restrain from open sexual intercourse this time,and maybe the next time, and maybe many times after. That doesn’t mean she is safe and not infatuated. It’s a slippery slope that just need the right moment of weakness and chance to explode.

And that's why she says i'm being jealous.

When a woman says that to a man it’s speaking something out like a confession mixed with gaslighting.
You wouldn’t have any need to be jealous if there’s no sexual tension between her and another man.

That sentence is never random and it’s both a test, and a confession in most cases.
Because you addressed her inappropriate behavior, this is a very specific kind of "jealousy " not an innocent one.

All said, once again, if you plan to go ahead with the recording you may either find a false sense of security or in the worst case scenario the realization of all your fears.

Please if that happens (and I hope it doesn’t) do not watch.
I still think that it would be preferable to find another way to confront her before allowing them to sink deeper in the dirt.

You don’t need evidence to support your feelings, she is the cause of your suffering and you already know it.

Before my H’s midlife crisis affair that led us to almost D, my H had the same mindset as your wife SBL.

I voiced my concerns over women & "friendships" and how they were very interested and he has a mindset of "I (his wife) cannot tell him who he can be friends with".

I was gaslit, stonewalled, lied to, I was "over reacting" and jealous (according to him).

Unfortunately a series of events (false reconciliation) led me to tell him I had no other choice but to D him. He’s now begging me to reconsider but I refused. I told him he was free to go.

While we ended up reconciling and being very happy — my H admitted to me that he showed me such disrespect and he’s surprised I am still married to him. He realized (post affair 2) that his behavior was wrong etc. and he should have stopped with the ego boost he looked for (from other women) and realized the damage he was doing to me & marriage.

He regrets all of it and for the past 13+ years has never once repeated the same behavior. I never told him post affair any of this - he came to that realization in his own. He "believed" his friendly banter and behavior w/ women was ok because there was no sex or cheating.

He now sees it differently.

All this to say that your wife doesn’t get it. She doesn’t get the disrespect she shows you and the damage it is causing. I hope she wakes up before it is too late and the damage cannot be repaired.

I suggest telling your wife that you want her to cancel the visit. Tell her you do not approve of the way she acts in his presence. I'm guessing her response will be no, and if so then you know she prioritizes her cousin over you.

When a spouse isn't number one the relationship is in serious trouble

I'm curious, why would you want to spend time with the two of them? Your wife's behavior around this man is a problem for you, understandably, so why expose yourself to that discomfort?

Brother as the rest of the folks have suggested, this leads either to a false sense of security or an annihilation of your psychology. IMO, it's a low percentage play. Don't hand them the opportunity.

I think your tentative plan is to get enough on camera to finally convince your wife that her actions are inappropriate. You'd show her how she looks when she's with him. OR you might get enough evidence to support a D. You don't need either and you may get nothing anyway. She finds the camera and you have other issues.

She has already broken the marriage covenant, even if she hasn't been naked with him. I'm one that's not sure about that either. From your description of events, she's involved in an affair with this man, she seems deeply in love with him even if she doesn't see it that way and she openly disrespects you in front of others. That's d territory already. If you're thinking that you'll see enough on the camera to support that decision, you don't need or want it. Just take a meeting with a divorce lawyer and let her discover that fact. Don't announce it, just do it. Find out your options. Maybe see three.

What you actually want, I think, is for her to finally see what she's doing and snap out of it, right? Perhaps taking the step above will finally convince her, how far down the path she's pushed you. On the other hand, maybe she just doesn't care about the marriage any more. Either way, the path towards D is already, mostly trod.

If you want to find something, you know she's talking to him a lot. Put a VAR in her car and any other place where she goes to be alone. You'll hear the conversations with him and with whoever she confides in about him. Print out those imessages. If you end up filing, she's gonna be asking why?!? Drop all that on her then. I'd have her served at whatever house she goes to where all these relatives, her and him congregate but that's the edgy part of me. Filing is not divorce either. Its a legal filing and can be pulled. I think you want, and I'd hope for you, that she finally snaps out of it, then does the work to restore your trust. I can only offer my advice, for what it's worth and my prayers, which you have. I hope that's okay. I hope you get you wife back or at least a life back.

Once aSailor gave you a very solid alternative.

Your wife might be messed up because unresolved issues and emotional excitement led her into affair territory.
You said she’s loving you and she very well might, in her mind it can feel innocent but in reality it is not.
Cognitive dissonance.

Though emotion and brain chemistry can override inhibitions and restraints it the stars align, she might do something that she would genuinely never dream of. Because she crossed all other boundaries already.

Please spare yourself the camera idea, if something like that is ever going to happen and you see it, it will be burned in your mind for life.
For the goal of collecting evidence you are really risking to enter the realm of horror.

There’s no coming back from that for your nerve system.
Infidelity hurts already very deeply.

Spare yourself the agony of horror.