"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

Feelinglikethat posted 1/13/2020 12:12 PM

Im not really sure where to begin but I feel like I need to tell my story and get some feedback in attempts to help heal my marriage and learn how I can help heal myself.

My husband and I have been together for over 13 years as a couple.

At the beginning of our relationship when we were in college, we had a swinging relationship with his best friend and his best friends wife. It started because the wife and I wanted to make our husbands happy so she and I did things together for them to watch. With alcohol involved, we ended up changing partners. I can recall specifically not desiring to do this. I wasnt attracted to the male. It was just something we did, but my husband and I never really discussed how we felt about it.

Fast forward a few years of off and on swinging with this one couple, our social circle begins to grow. I get notified by a spouse of an acquaintance that my husband has been sending and receiving inappropriate messages to this acquaintance. It should be mentioned that this acquaintance is in a position to help further advancements in my husbands hobby and side career. This was done in secret and without discussing with me. He apologized to me and I forgave him. We never really talked about it much more than that. I went to the girl and I told her everything is okay and I knew she is just lonely. She was in an abusive relationship.

As my husband's hobby begins to grow, we make more friends and have more nights partying. My husband encourages me to flirt and to get drunk from his male friends buying drinks for me. We discussed different people we could bring into the relationship. We never physically brought anyone else in, but we both had another that we flirted with in his social circle.

In the everyday life, things werent great at home. I felt so alone. I did seek out a colleugue who I confided in. I didnt see a lot of harm in flirting with him bc it has been a common thing that we took part in our marriage. I ended up getting too comfortable with him and I started to keep secrets and hide my real intentions with him. We had an affair. Only once physically but more emotionally I guess you could say. Although I never had feelings for this guy. Never felt anything more than a friend who I could confide in and gave me attention. Never and expression of love or anything like that, but just someone to vent to.

Things seemed to spiral our of control over the next couple years. Worsening home life, more distance in our marriage. I felt lost. Because of my selfish needs for attention and an inability to face my husband, I stepped out on my marriage again. This time was just digitally as it was with an online person; not someone in real life. It was easy attention. I met this person after starting a real interest and hobby and studying it online. This person started as a resource for my studying. This one was physical (with pictures and videos, never actual physical contact) and emotional. I developed feelings for this person, albiet fake feelings looking back. It was just lust.

I got caught with the first affair and then confessed about my online affair. I ended all contact with both people. I changed my job to be further away from the work collegue. I blocked the online person and never sought to discuss anything with them further. Its been a little over 1 year since dday. In the aftermath, I released a lot of built up resentment that I had towards my husband. He has admitted to being emotionally abusive towards me through our relationship. He is really working so hard to change that and he accepts that it had an affect on our marriage.

I do not think this is a reason for to step out of the marriage. I have no excuses for the actions that I took. I did what I did because I was selfish and seeking validation and attention. I should have sat down with my husband and poured my heart out instead of being selfish.

I tried to fight to keep my hobby and to keep studying with the other online people who I was not having an affair with. My husband told me that I needed to close that chapter entirely. I didnt think it was fair. I dont know if i was in a fog or what ground I thought I had to stand on. Of course I dont have any right to fight for anything for myself. I am the one who is at fault and I am the one to blame for his distrust of me. I guess maybe, in searching for my why's, I felt that I deserved a right to have some autonomy because in our relationship, he controlled almost all aspects. Also I had a slipup in this time period as well. I did not solicit an individual, but I did post as a status a video of myself being flirtatious (not in a revealing way).

Another thing that was a betrayal to my marriage was in the aftermath, I was searching for some kind of guidance. I started to believe in God again and I was desiring to convert to a religion. It was the only thing that made any sense and brought any light to the horrible journey that I had taken us on. My husband was very upset that I had desired to convert to this religion as he ties it directly to my hobby and studying (I was studying a lot about a certain culture).

I am disgusted with myself. I am ashamed of all the wrongs that I did. Im ashamed of the things that we did even with the agreed upon swinging. I am terrified every day bc of the risks I put on my family. I am so ashamed that I was willing to sacrifice my family for the sake of myself. I have no desire to ever do that again. I am sad, too, that I have to sacrifice a hobby that I really did enjoy (this is minor in comparison, but it is a feeling that I have).

I love my husband. He is a good man and he is a good father. He really is trying so hard and he is trying to overcome all the damage that Ive done. Hes given me a lot of chances and I don't deserve any of them. I am fully prepared to be yelled at here and to be told just how horrible I am. My husband and his therapist think I have a personality disorder. I did see a therapist but I am fearful that I manipulated her into thinking I am normal.

My hopes for the future are to have a loving and caring relationship. Mutual respect. I know that the shame that I feel will keep me from straying again.

Im not really sure what I'm hoping to hear, but I just needed to release some of this. There are a lot more details, but I think this summarizes my mistakes. I hope someone can give me some guidance on how to make it up and earn respect, how to regain trust, and how to forgive myself.

Thumos posted 1/13/2020 12:38 PM

WS only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:04 PM, January 13th (Monday)]

Zugzwang posted 1/13/2020 21:09 PM

started because the wife and I wanted to make our husbands happy so she and I did things together for them to watch. With alcohol involved, we ended up changing partners. I can recall specifically not desiring to do this.

Have you addressed this problem? This isn't a marriage problem. This is a you problem. That early in the marriage you chose to not speak up for yourself. That you were so willing to make someone else happy to get something fed, that you would choose to do something you were uncomfortable with for so long. What was it? Why didn't you speak up? Is it fair for you to have resentment for your husband for your lack of speaking up? For being distant from your marriage when you invested so much outside of it? Is it your husband's fault you were a people pleaser? Why do you have to do that? Dig dig dig deeper.

mistakes.

These aren't mistakes. This is a lifetime of choices to disrespect yourself. To show a lack of self love based on your lack of self esteem and lack of self confidence.

Tell us more about the cross over of your hobby and cheating with the hobby.

Feelinglikethat posted 1/13/2020 21:30 PM

Thanks for your reply.

I don’t know why I didnt speak up for myself and what I truly wanted. The resentment I had doesn’t just stem from this one incident. It came from a variety of ways of emotional abuse, degrading, berating, and manipulating. I am working hard to focus on his positives and let the past be in the past. He doesn’t do these things anymore. He is kind to me now.

The interest is archeology and history and the hobby was language learning. I was learning the language of a culture. I met this person that way. I often said I would be studying, sometimes i was studying with true intentions with other people. Sometimes i was using that time to carry on my affair.

Im having trouble understanding how my problem could be people pleasing when I spent so much time pleasing only my selfish desires. Maybe people pleasing was part of it to begin with. Edited to add that I feel like I’m having an identity crisis of sorts. Im trying to figure out who is the real me and how did I allow myself to be such a horrible person.

[This message edited by Feelinglikethat at 9:46 PM, January 13th (Monday)]

Zugzwang posted 1/18/2020 17:53 PM

Has he owned up to his abuse? Have you gotten over your own resentment for yourself for allowing yourself to be treated like that? The interesting thing about resentment...especially when it comes from abuse...you chose to stay, is the resentment placed at the right set of feet? Is resentment even worth having at that point? You resent him for treating you a certain way that you chose to stay to be treated by.

Im having trouble understanding how my problem could be people pleasing when I spent so much time pleasing only my selfish desires.

You please people to get validation to get your selfish desires met and you do it at the expense of self respect because you have destroyed that in order to build your self esteem and self confidence.

Start with you at the earliest age and be honest. Don't make excuses for yourself and others. Break it down.

Zugzwang posted 1/18/2020 17:54 PM

In the meantime, try out some hobbies to find you. You will need that to build up strength, self confidence, and a healthy joy.

Feelinglikethat posted 1/22/2020 08:41 AM

He has sometimes admitted to the abuse, but other times he denies it. I think he feels if he accepts it that hes taken some blame for my actions. That isnt the case for me. I am the one solely responsible for what I did.

I do have resentment for myself for not speaking up and not being strong. I cannot change the past though. I have to be able to find forgiveness for myself and for him in order to want to feel close and for both of us to open up and try to be safe partners again.

I still pray to god and i hope I can continue on a path to finding peace in religion. One day I hope my husband will accept this when he feels more comfortable in our marriage and i prove to him that I am a safe partner.

Obviously, cheating and manipulating is abuse in a relationship. Does that mean I have narcissistic personality disorder?

hikingout posted 1/22/2020 09:36 AM

It's funny, but there was a time when I came on here considering whether or not I was a narcissist.

It turns out that what my true problem was numbing my feelings to the extent that I couldn't really feel much of anything. That meant also that my ability to empathize was about nilch. I think you need to continue in therapy, and I don't think it's easy as fooling someone into believing you are normal.

There are a couple of things here, Zug has pointed some of them out, that I identify with and can therefore share my experiences.

H and I also did some swinging early in our relationship. This was 20+ years ago. I tried to like it but I did not. Despite the fact that I did cheat on my husband, I believe I am very monogamous by nature and it was really soul crushing in many ways to keep sharing myself in that way with other people.

When I go back and put it into what I have learned it was about people pleasing as well to a certain extent. I was sexually abused growing up and I felt in order to be "cool and accepted" by men I needed to be adventurous. That isn't who I am though. I am adventurous but really with one person.

The people pleasing comes from not having enough self love and self respect to enforce my own boundaries. To protect my happiness.

And, it led very much to an identity crisis of sorts. I didn't know who I was, what made me happy, and in having the affair confused the issues a lot. I have hustled for someone's love since I was young. With my husband and kids I just over did for them all the time. To be deserving of their love being subservient and putting their needs above my own at all times was the way I believed you needed to be in order to be a good wife and a good mother. As the kids left, and my husband became busier as he started his business I was really lost, bored, lonely. I hid in being busy, working 15-18 hours a day 6 and 7 days a week. I stuffed my feelings until I was emotionally exhausted.

In therapy, she had me stop doing everything and sort my should from my coulds. She said I made everything a should. I had to closely monitor my motivations for why I was doing things. I couldn't do them to earn love, I was to remind myself I am worthy of love for who I am and not what I do. (At the time that rang hollow because I didn't like who I was, especially after having cheated on my husband. I do not envy where you are at - I am just telling you this because there is hope. Also to illustrate how people pleasing becomes toxic, it creates resentments, that often we create our own expectations of what we should be and what we should be doing.

It's understandable that your husband does not trust you, that your hobby triggers him because you used the time as a mask to conduct your affair. It's okay that you miss it. It's not the only hobby in the world you can have though so you need to hold that question. Maybe you can still read about it and conduct online conversations in which he has your password and can monitor it. If the whole topic is triggering to him, then you really will have to find some other things to be interested in at least for now. If you guys effectively work through things there are ways you can create transparency and negotiate those things later.

In the meantime, it sounds like to me you don't really have a clear picture as to why you turn to cheating. So, it would be my recommendation to start with your whys.

I share these two because I think they are universal, but also it's where I started in mine. You then just need to build on those from the clues you found in them. Your whys are all internal to you and you alone. They will become a list of things to work on.

I felt entitled to have the affair because ______. Usually this is some sort of perceived sacrifice we make or a perceived imbalance in the relationship in which we contribute more. It's a false story we tell ourselves to justify our actions.

You were seeking validation, you said that, and I think it's also super common. So, you need to look at the roots of why you don't love or respect yourself and you need someone else to prop you up. This is hard, and sometimes you have to go through all your foo...I did this one with my IC.

Read how to help your spouse heal from the affair. Read the Betrayed forums here. I don't think you have yet really connected to the destruction. Read about trauma, it will help you understand your husband more.

You do sound a bit flat, but when I was where you were I was flat too. It is the part that made me feel like a narcissist, and it was confusing.

Switch therapists and start over if you feel you tainted this one.

Also, the fact your relationship was abusive and sometimes your husband admits and denies makes me think there are still some dynamics at play. I would do some reading on codependency. It sounds like you may not know where your boundaries even are to begin to enforce them. I can relate to that as well.

Feelinglikethat posted 1/23/2020 10:11 AM

Thanks so much for your reply hikingout. I've only been here a little bit but I look forward to reading your posts.

Its really hard for me to fully accept this people pleasing. My husband has said I was selfish the entirety of our marriage. I know that I do need to return to counseling to help work through these things. I need a new counselor though because my husband has doubts in the one I have been seeing so I think it is best to start fresh. This will help me work on my whys.

I do understand that I caused a new devastation and created the traumatic situation that we are now in. I would appreciate any guidance in how to accept all the verbal blows with grace. From my childhood, I have a defensive tendency. I had a hypercritical father and I always had to defend my every move. I want my husband to know that I love him and that I want this family to work. I am willing to dig deep and allow myself to feel all the wrongness that I should feel. After dday i did spend time defending myself. Not my actions that I took but the way that I had felt in my marriage that lead to me thinking this was an acceptable path. I was wrong to do that, but since I did, my words have no value.

I do believe this hobby is something I am going to have to let go forever. It is my fault that I created this situation. I do feel sad about it but I have only myself to blame. I did try having it be open and honest-giving him passwords to everything etc. It still remained a trigger. Even reading related books is a trigger too. Again, my fault but I do need to acknowledge my sadness and anger at myself for this.

I know i do sound flat. I guess Im just lost and doubting myself.

hikingout posted 1/23/2020 10:43 AM

Its really hard for me to fully accept this people pleasing.

It might not fit for you. Not everyone who cheats is a people pleaser. I suspect there is some sort of codependency tendency though because you stayed in a situation where your H was abusive, and It seems you have accepted a lot that someone healthier would not have. Those foo issues you bring up sound like they fit the pattern.

I would appreciate any guidance in how to accept all the verbal blows with grace.

When new WS come here it's very hard to differentiate if it's the normal spousal anger or abusiveness. You are in therapy so I am sure they are able to discern that better than me. I can't tell where you are in your timeline (when dday was) that first year is rough, and the BS is on an emotional roller coaster. Due to the trauma they are going to say a lot of things that are very out of character for them. So, if we are talking about that part of it, and it's not abuse, then I would say the big thing for me was I read about trauma. I read other stories of what BS's were hurting over. I put myself in his shoes. The empathy you feel will bridge the feeling of needing to defend yourself. Instead, it will really make you want to understand and apologize.

With all that being said, I think you are still emotionally numb. I think you may need to address that factor first. Hard to have empathy when you can't feel anything. I felt dead inside. I really felt like I cared about northing. That was a deep depressive state, and that might be why you sound flat. In order to be there the way we need to sometimes we have to get to a place where it's possible. It's hard to tell if that's where you are just by reading what you write, but that flatness I recognize. I sounded that way when I got here too.

BluesPower posted 1/23/2020 10:56 AM

Thanks so much for your reply hikingout. I've only been here a little bit but I look forward to reading your posts.
Its really hard for me to fully accept this people pleasing. My husband has said I was selfish the entirety of our marriage. I know that I do need to return to counseling to help work through these things. I need a new counselor though because my husband has doubts in the one I have been seeing so I think it is best to start fresh. This will help me work on my whys.

I do understand that I caused a new devastation and created the traumatic situation that we are now in. I would appreciate any guidance in how to accept all the verbal blows with grace. From my childhood, I have a defensive tendency. I had a hypercritical father and I always had to defend my every move. I want my husband to know that I love him and that I want this family to work. I am willing to dig deep and allow myself to feel all the wrongness that I should feel. After dday i did spend time defending myself. Not my actions that I took but the way that I had felt in my marriage that lead to me thinking this was an acceptable path. I was wrong to do that, but since I did, my words have no value.

I do believe this hobby is something I am going to have to let go forever. It is my fault that I created this situation. I do feel sad about it but I have only myself to blame. I did try having it be open and honest-giving him passwords to everything etc. It still remained a trigger. Even reading related books is a trigger too. Again, my fault but I do need to acknowledge my sadness and anger at myself for this.

I know i do sound flat. I guess Im just lost and doubting myself.

You sound really down, and I get that, so I want to be gentle.

Can you see or understand how your first post and your last post kind of are all about you in a way?

See if you want your marriage, your thinking needs to be about your betrayed husband. Yeah, you need to fix yourself as well, but you have to be there for him.

Read on here, esp the pinned thread at the top of the way ward forum.

That should give you a place to start...

Feelinglikethat posted 1/23/2020 11:10 AM

Is these any advice you can give me on how to make my thinking about him? Maybe im stuck in the pain from what I dealt with in our marriage that I haven’t begun to address what I did in the way I should.

I have read some books on codependency. I need to explore that path further.

I know its not abuse that he expresses his anger towards me in this time. He needs to get it out and I deserve everything he gives me. I shook him to his core, I played him a fool, I used him and lied and manipulated. He cant and shouldn’t trust me yet. i have to prove myself worthy. I read the pinned post and I will read it again and again.

Dday was Sept 2018. He does see my continued fight to keep those friends and my wish to practice religion as betrayals and lying as well.

BluesPower posted 1/23/2020 13:02 PM

Dday was Sept 2018. He does see my continued fight to keep those friends and my wish to practice religion as betrayals and lying as well.

OK, questions:

1) Sept 2018, so a year and 4 months ago he caught you? And you told him about all your affairs.

2) What have you done to help him heal, not be defensive, listen to him, show some empathy things like that. Have you done anything?

Practical steps:

The most obvious one is give up the friends today and the hobby. And maybe for a time give up the religion or something.

It would have been better if you had just done it to start with, it would have SHOWN him that he was important, that he mattered to you more than anything.

Does any of that help?

Feelinglikethat posted 1/23/2020 13:24 PM

Yes Sept 2018 he caught me and I confessed.
I am still working on how to show empathy. My acitve steps are to do things for him that were missing for him in our marriage before. Ive bought thoughtful presents, written letters and poems, reached out more. Ive tried to increase our physical interactions as well. He said a part of what was missing for him was affection so I am working on that too. Holding hands in the car and at dinner, hugs when we are together, kisses before I leave for work. I try to put my defenses away and respond in ways that say I understand that he would feel the way he does after the shit I drug him through.
I have given up the hobby and the friends. I have been off of all social media for over seven months. I know now that it would have been better to get rid of it in the beginning but being the selfish person I am, I fought to keep it. I was wrong to do that. I know now that doing that made him feel like he was less important than my hobby. I caused him more pain with that.

How do you manage the guilt too? Somedays I cant even get off the couch or quit crying because Im so upset with myself.

hikingout posted 1/23/2020 15:26 PM

Okay, so you are in a shame wallowing phase. Most of us WS have been there. I had a hard time crawling out of that.

I think for me I had to start seeing his problem as more important than mine. It meant that I had to suck it up and be the stronger one. When we wallow in shame we make it about us, how we feel. It creates a feeling in the bs where on one hand it might make them feel guilty, on another it often feeds anger ("WHY DO I HAVE TO BE THE ONE TO FEEL GUILTY WHEN THEY CHEATED?") However it makes them feel is not good and just makes it worse.

So, I had to figure out how to manage myself and my overwhelming feelings. You mentioned therapy, are you doing individual or just marital? You need individual therapy.

The reason I say that is because for me, this is where I could vent, where I learned other ways to cope. It made me first concentrate on the basics (self care - because we can't be a fountain for someone else if we let our sources run dry). It also started with looking at FOO, which you may have done, but also healing some of those traumas from that time that I didn't know were effecting me or that I was still carrying them around. It was somewhere in that process that I started to gain some self compassion.

The other thing that will help you gain some self compassion is just keep doing the next thing the best way you know how.

We all have a limited amount of energy. I think your depression and being stuck in a shame wallowing cycle is taking all of yours. Shame is useful in the way that it can help us change our behaviors, force us to reflect on ourselves, but when you get stuck in those spirals it's very unhelpful to you and to your spouse. So, concentrate on that aspect. If you can renew some of your energy by finding your own sources, that will be important.

The problem with us Wayward is many times we don't have those sources, we rely on other people giving us our feelings. So, we ride the roller coaster with our spouse and if they are down we are even more down. Someone has to stabilize for the other, and it really needs to be you.

Feelinglikethat posted 1/24/2020 09:50 AM

Oh wow. I know I need to put on my big girl pants and be the strong steady one. I was going to individual counseling but my H and I are fearful that I manipulated her too. I didnt lie to her but maybe I weaved our story in a different light. So I do need to go to a new counselor to get more sound therapy.

As far as reconciliation is concerned, I want to work on healing him and the damage and total destruction I have caused. I know that that may mean putting my needs aside. I want to prove to him with time that he can feel safe with me again. I want to show him love that he deserves. I know his pain iis definitely bigger and hurts deeper than anything I can imagine. I guess I’m trying to find the balance between reclaiming my needs that werent met without making it seem like mine are more important or that I deserve anything more than to be thankful for a second chance. Of course they aren’t more important and I want to find a way to come together. Is there any advice on navigating this situation? How do you create a better environment for the marriage with healthy communication when really I deserve to live at a deficit for the rest of my life.

I want to explore and find what within myself led me to feel like I was entitled to create a toxic environment and to proactively destroy my husband’s life and the lives of others.

Can you tell me what FOO stands for?

hikingout posted 1/24/2020 10:21 AM

FOO is Family of Origin. But, I also use it just to encompass "stuff that happened during my formative years". There was a lot of trauma there that I worked to address. Did your therapist go through any of that with you?

In terms of "healing your husband". There is really no way for one human to heal the other. We can provide the environment, but we can't do that work. What I mean by that is often the trauma of being cheated on will bring up a lot of other stuff for a BS that they have to also reconcile, heal, and sort through.

The philosophy we followed was one often stated by Sisoon on this site:

BS heals BS
WS heals WS
And together they heal the marriage.

The truth is that you can do everything exactly right and R still won't be given or possible. Some people never get over their spouse cheated.

What you need to do is focus very much on figuring out how to get yourself healthy. If you seek that out, rather than trying to control an outcome, you won't be manipulating a counselor. You will use them as a tool to guide you as you do your self discovery. Someone geared towards truly working on themselves is going to want to be open and honest in order to get the results that you want.

It's not uncommon in the beginning for the WS to be more focused on the outcome of the marriage. But, the problem is the fear of losing the marriage causes you to do things that you feel will increase your chances of saving it. Unfortunately a lot of what I found worked would have been completely counter-intuitive in what I would have believed would have saved the marriage. That's how you end up manipulating.

In order to really go through the process you need to be open to all outcomes, and find your truth. Find the things within you that are barriers to your path to love fully. Challenge your thoughts, preconceived notions, and many of the things that were ingrained in you during your formative years.

As long as your happiness and health is hitched to the status of your marriage, you are going to swim around in shame and guilt and go through these cycles over and over. To get out of the cycle you need to step up to do the things that you have been resisting out of fear. And, that's when you let go of the outcome of the marriage and open yourself to the idea that the outcome you are searching for is to truly find a way to be healthy. If you are healthy, your relationships will be easier to manage. You will find this new person you become to either be more stable and able to provide the environment to save the marriage, or you may even find that a healthy person doesn't want the marriage without some dynamics changing.

It's very difficult to get in that space and it will not happen all at once or overnight. Get a new counselor and start over in IC. I question what the heck they were even doing if they didn't educate you on FOO. That's usually where they start. And, at the time, I kept thinking, "What the hell does this have to do with anything?" and "What's this going to help my life is burning down". But, unfortunately you do have to start from the beginning to understand who you are today. By knowing the way those patterns were formed were toxic, you won't realize the importance of changing them or recognizing them when they occur.

I don't know if that helps or not. A lot of people told me this when I got here, it took a year or more for me to digest and internalize it.

Feelinglikethat posted 1/24/2020 13:24 PM

In therapy we did discuss a lot about the family dynamics when I was growing up and how those play major parts in the way that I am now. I don’t remember her using the term family of origin specifically, but we did spend a lot of time discussing those things.

My mom is an absolute people pleaser. My father was super critical, always attacking and belittling. There is a lot there that has to do with the development of my defensiveness and taking everything personally.

I like the philosophy of healing self then together healing the marriage. Without two healthy parts, the whole cant be healthy. I guess I wont know if the marriage will be healthy until I get myself into a place where I feel more confident in myself and knowing who I am.

I really appreciate your responses. I have so much work to do and I am so grateful to hear from people who have been in my situation. Its hard to manage on my own with just the back and forth with my husband. I get so lost and confused about who am I and what do I need and want and why did i do that i did.

hikingout posted 1/24/2020 13:27 PM

Yep, me too. That's what writing here has helped me to keep assessing. I learn and reinforce my learning by just participating here. I still need this place as much as you do.

The changes are a marathon and not a sprint. It's easy to get overwhelmed, but just remember each step takes you closer.