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BS Questions for WS's - Part 12

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NewManToday123 posted 8/28/2018 15:40 PM

General question to all WSs

What made you reach remorsefulness ? How long did it take after Dday ?

Please include any pertinent details in your journey to remorsefulness and how it effected you, your perceptions and behaviors.

Thank you

hikingout posted 8/28/2018 15:42 PM

Brainfreeze,

I have been noticing some of your posts lately sound like my H and I have hit a similar stage to you and your W at this point in time. It's that "I feel ready to reconcile" stage, and it's felt on both sides.

Psychmom recommended to me a book called "conscious loving". I have just downloaded it and haven't read it yet, but by the way she describes it, I think it's just what I am looking for, and possibly a good one for you guys too.

Most of the other readings were about the A. I think you are looking for guidance past that. I would recommend Brene Brown's Rising Strong. We read that together because for R, vulnerability is a big factor and connector.

For me, one of the things that is helping me the most and my husband as well as really carving out new experiences together and quality time. We have been taking weekend trips as we can, and spending time in nature together, going to concerts, hiking, a painting class, trying new food that we've not explored. You know, dating? Yeah we weren't doing that for a long time and if so it was sporadic.

Another great resource for us was the Gottman weekend retreat called "The Science of Love". It's a two day thing. You can just buy the home version but I think if you can swing it, the conference is great. We chose a location 3 hours away and made a weekend of it. If you aren't in that position (I forget who here has small kids) try using his app for a little bit a few times a week. It has a lot of love mapping questions and while some of the questions are silly some of the questions really led to good discussions.

Waggingthedog posted 8/28/2018 15:48 PM

Thank you hikingout. I've been reading this forum for about... Eight months (?) prior to D-Day and I've read many of your posts. I only became a member here sometime after D-Day. I guess you could call it preparation for the landing, what I read here and other places. Thankfully, I had a rather precise action plan in place for when I found out thanks to all the advice on here.

Of course, I haven't been perfect in execution. And that's OK. But I've hit the major parts of it outlined for this initial stage and I'm happy. I've decided that I'm going to find happiness regardless of what happens, and that keeps me going.

Crazy, I know, but I still love her. It saddens me to not be able to help but I think you're right. I can't help.

But was there something that your or someone else's BS did that helped make you feel secure in the investment in putting in the work? Maybe secure isn't the best word. Probably safe? Something along those lines


And don't worry, I'm focused on me. I took the initial kick in stomach but I'm still hanging in there. Back to working out and spending time with friends. I learned to trust my gut more during this and, I don't know why, for some ungodly reason I've started to feel better about myself? have no idea why, but that's today. Other days are dark. But some are sunny.

leafields posted 8/28/2018 16:21 PM

Thanks for your help, hikingout. I really appreciate your insight.

NewManToday123 posted 8/28/2018 16:40 PM

WS::

Does your BS ever ask you mean questions out of the blue suck as:

1) was your AP a better kisser than me ?

2) was your AP a better fuck than me ?

3) was your AP a better bla bla bla than me ?

If so ... what kind of reaction does this cause in you ?

I think I ask these type of questions out of the blue to shock her, hurt her, test her, make her feel guilty and push her toward remorse.

Are these totally destructive questions or do they serve a purpose ?

( now that I think about it I think these questions are primarily a test to she if she cares about me at all...she doesn't express much care since Dday so I think these questions are really probes trying to see if she cares )

[This message edited by NewManToday123 at 4:44 PM, August 28th (Tuesday)]

Darkness Falls posted 8/28/2018 16:44 PM

Does your BS ever ask you mean questions out of the blue

Never.

hikingout posted 8/28/2018 16:56 PM

Wagging,

Itís unusual for a bs to be here so long before dday. Did you suspect for that long? Also I donít think itís crazy you still love her. We donít always have that within our control or option. Your attitude is right you deserve to be happy and right now concentrating on that is so important.

I donít think the ws should require security. The things she needs to fix should be regardless of the outcome. She will never have a successful relationship or be her healthiest self without doing the work. Just like you need to workout and keep building your life she needs to do the same thing. She shouldnít need incentives from you to do this for herself. Be watchful of enabling and codependent behaviors. I am not saying those things exist but from your questions I would see some caution needed. The fact you are still there with her, are actively working in your healing...thatís more than what many get. She needs to do this without promise of outcome, itís not going to work any other way because the motivation will not be right.

Waggingthedog posted 8/28/2018 18:12 PM

Hiking, I suspected for at least a year. Confrontations and such happened, but I never had proof to refute the denials. Once I had proof I executed the plan I'd been researching. I tend to plan for stuff in detail (hazard of the work I do). I actually had it typed up on a five page doc months prior. I am in a comfortable and safe place now with the plan I have. It includes legal agreements in the case of divorce, safety plans, no contact, tracking, total transparency and other stuff. I know that's vague but it is comprehensive. That's why I feel safe. The rest of the decision is whether we can work it out or not and that's on her really. But it took the stress away so I could work on myself and be happy. There's no more worrying. I know that sounds odd, but I deal with far worse stuff on a daily basis. It's easy for me to get my mind around it logically. Not emotionally.

Barregirl posted 8/28/2018 21:20 PM

Does your BS ever ask you mean questions out of the blue...

If so ... what kind of reaction does this cause in you ?

I think I ask these type of questions out of the blue to shock her, hurt her, test her, make her feel guilty and push her toward remorse.

Are these totally destructive questions or do they serve a purpose ?

No, my H does not ask me questions like these now and he never did after dday. You can't push someone to feel remorse, they have to reach that point themselves. Questions such as those would definitely have been far more destructive for my M than helpful. If my H were being mean for the sole purpose of being mean, I would not continue a discussion as meanness achieves nothing. It may make you feel better momentarily, but truly serves no other purpose. Anger and sadness are expected and can encourage dialogue, but random questions asked purely out of meanness will likely shut anyone down, especially a new WS who is working through the A and their brokenness.

Lorisa posted 8/28/2018 23:17 PM

[This message edited by Lorisa at 11:52 AM, August 29th (Wednesday)]

BrainFreeze posted 8/29/2018 07:56 AM

@HikingOut - Thank you for your suggestions.

Conscious Loving
Rising Strong - Brene Brown

Gottman - We have a couple of his books based on recommendations by our counselor. I downloaded the app last week after I saw the thread on it.

My wife had actually suggested a weekend retreat, but I don't remember which one she was referencing... The subject was dropped, but I don't remember why. I should bring that up again.

BTW - my kids are teens (15 and 17) so.. it would be easy to get away for the weekend.

Thanks again for you recommendations.
BrainFreeze

MrsWalloped posted 8/29/2018 09:08 AM

Hi BrainFreeze,

Iím going to second hikingoutís recommendations (I must have read all of Brene Brownís books as well as a bunch of Gottmanís).

Iíve also read
a) Healing the Shame That Binds You by Jim/John/Jack Bradshaw (one of those J names)
b) Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff,
c) After the Affair and How Can I Forgive You? by Janice Spring
d) Gary Chapman (The 5 Love Languages, When Sorry Isnít Enough)

There are more but I thought those were very helpful.

Also, check The Book Club Forum. There are some threads about fiction and regular non-fiction books, but many of the threads are about books that you might be interested in.

BrainFreeze posted 8/29/2018 15:28 PM

Thank you Mrs. Walloped!

I actually did look at the book club thread, but I was wondering specifically what my wife might find useful, so I thought I would ask in this forum.

My wife and I talk regularly, but I have the picture of what happened now...so our recent talks are more like status updates. I know that this won't shock anybody, but neither of us is 100%... but I am doing well enough. She really has been focused on me, and so I want to try and help her too. Which is why I'm here asking you all about books that spoke to you guys, on the wayward side. (Did I mention how grateful I am that you all are so willing to answer these questions? I am... )

I am trying to "widen my focus"... away from MY hurt and worry, and focus on things outside of me.... Does that make sense? My hurt was so deep and complete that for a very long time, I had a hard time seeing the world outside my own pain...so I needed to focus outside of me... (I hope I don't just sound crazy) I actually started practicing with my kids, and I feel more in touch with them than I ever have before. Now I want to expand to my wife too. I think I've patched myself up enough to start tackling marriage problems too...I think she is safe enough... I want to start working on all the things that I now know were wrong in our marriage before this happened. I want to improve me...and US.

Me asking for book recommendations that would help from her perspective... is me trying to expand that view... What can I do that can help her?

Or maybe my brain is more scrambled that I thought and I'm just talking gar-bally-goop"

Again, thank you for the recommendations!
AND - thank you for being here.

hikingout posted 8/29/2018 15:48 PM

I am trying to "widen my focus"... away from MY hurt and worry, and focus on things outside of me.... Does that make sense? My hurt was so deep and complete that for a very long time, I had a hard time seeing the world outside my own pain...so I needed to focus outside of me...


I am glad you wrote that. I have been trying to find the words for the relief I feel lately. It's a little different for me, I have been focusing on my H's pain more over my own as much as possible the last 6 months - but it's as if he has gotten to a place where he doesn't need that quite as much and I can widen the focus. In the last couple of months, I have re-engaged our children more, some close girlfriends, etc. We can go out for a couple hours and mostly forget.

For so long the view is so narrow and all the pain is a focus, to be able to view other things sometimes and be able to appreciate and enjoy them...it's like feeling new again. It's not all perfect, things are not all fixed...but more air is getting in. I have sat and tried to express this different ways and I can't find a way to do it justice. The way you stated it hit close for me. Sorry for the add-on here but I have just felt so thankful all day today.

BrainFreeze posted 8/29/2018 16:23 PM

@Hiking out - Exactly how I feel.. that is right...
About a week ago, my wife and I were invited to an event that I did not want to go to. (long story) Because I wasn't going, she didn't want to go.

I told her that it was not healthy for us to be stuck to each other like we have been. I told her that we needed to start being active again and that I felt like we should start slow...but start now... She agreed. She went.

Guess what. We were both fine. I ended up home alone as both kids went out to friends house... so I got to watch a couple of slasher flicks. (nobody else likes them)

Anyway... I'm supposed to ask you a question in this forum....

So... What is the square root of negative 1?

ANS: I

I'll stop chatting... thanks again...
BrainFreeze

hatefulnow posted 8/29/2018 18:08 PM

I'm very glad for this thread and this site.

My XWW and I have what I'd call an exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend type relationship. It's good, fun and, mostly, fulfilling.

But one thing nags at me. There are things that were done for/with AP that I had asked for but never received pre-affair.

Post-affair I feel I could ask her to gouge out an eye and she'd comply. But, if I ask for such and such, there's resistance. It's subtle and I do get whatever, no problem, but it's there. Also, any passion she manifests seems affected. I don't like asking for things she doesn't like.

At first I didn't care. I was like 'do such and such...oh, you don't like it? So what! You did it with POSOM so let's get down to it'. But that's when things were bad and I was going though an anger phase coupled with EXTREME hysterical bonding.

Now, she's someone I actually like, LOVE, care about and respect. She complies, without complaint, but when you've been with someone for decades you notice things.

I have asked her if there's a problem on multiple occasions and she always says no, but sometimes seems evasive with her responses.

She is receptive to any advances I make, but rarely initiates and even during sex if I want such and such I'd have to ask. She never asks me if I wan those things. And they're not crazy, wacky or perverted things, either.

I'm sparing you the imagery.

Maybe I'm paranoid. I've still got lots of healing to do.

To the WW in recovery were there things done for AP that were not done for BS pre-affair even though they asked, but now you either can't/won't do them for BS or you have some difficulty doing them for BS? (Not physical difficulty per se.)

Also, if you do them , do you resent it? How have you handled this with BS? I do not want her doing things out of guilt or obligation or trying to keep our family together. I want her to feel passion for me.

[This message edited by hatefulnow at 6:10 PM, August 29th (Wednesday)]

Darkness Falls posted 8/29/2018 19:10 PM

I have asked her if there's a problem on multiple occasions and she always says no, but sometimes seems evasive with her responses.

But you KNOW thereís a problemóshe doesnít like it.

Hence, the portion I quoted seems passive-aggressive on your part.

I havenít been in your shoes as far as unwillingness to do sexual things with my H that I did with the AP. However, my H and I reconciled after our divorce and since we started seeing each other again I donít feel any passion. Love, absolutely. Passion, no.

I canít fake it. I also canít manufacture it, or force it to be there when itís not. I wish I had actual advice, but I donít.

hikingout posted 8/30/2018 08:25 AM

Hi hatefulnow,

What you are discussing is a common theme we see here on the board. My H and I did not have this as an issue/barrier to working towards R. I didn't do things that were outside of my personality, and the A was short with limited menu.

However, perhaps part of what might be helpful for you is to be able to discover what drove that for her. Often it's some sort of validation, and a way to fuel the fantasy of the A. I can understand how for a man if you like to do x,y,z, and your significant other has always proclaimed not to like those things, you decide to live with out them, and then boom she hands them to someone else in what seems to be easy...you begin to wonder if she doesn't love you as much, doesn't desire you as much, etc. I would definitely try to approach her with this information so she understands emotionally what is happening and not just thinking you are using this to get different sexual favors. What you are really trying to tell her is you want to be made to feel that she desires you, loves you, wants to share herself with you MORE than the AP.

All that being said, I mentioned it might help to understand how those things came to be, it may help you interpret it differently. I tried to answer a bit on how we keep esculating the affair some whys of what happened for me to do that for another poster that is known to have a similar concern earlier in this thread. His question is on the bottom of page 30, and my response starts on the top of page 31. Maybe there will be some insights that you can use to try and have the successful discussion.

If you can resolve this on an emotional level, then I think that would be best. Otherwise, it's always just going to be a deal breaker for you, and you are right she will grow more dissatisfied and possibly resentful over time. It's time to see if you all can process it together, because if not I think it's a nail in the coffin for your relationship. It might be a slow one too, which makes it worse I believe.

hatefulnow posted 8/30/2018 11:15 AM

Thanks for the responses.

We do talk often about things, our family, relationship, the future, etc. She operates from the standpoint of 'I'm the man and I should be in charge, so whatever I want she'll go along with'. This is how she was raised and I've known her since we were kids...literally.

Now this is good for me on some levels because I like making the call, so to speak, in large or small matters. However I don't want a 'sock puppet' for a partner. While I appreciate her willingness to 'go along' with what I want I'd appreciate more her being more expressive. This has always been an issue for her.

She is a people-pleaser, always wanting to help, even to the point of taking responsibility for crap that is not her problem...especially when that crap hits the fan. We've been working on that and there's been progress.

She has hinted, strongly, she'd like to fully reconcile and remarry. She's not pushing for that but I know it's what she wants. My concern is does she want this because she wants me or does she just want her 'good girl' credentials back? I've told her that it would never happen unless I feel she wants to be with ME for ME, not because of appearances or the sake of the kids or any other kind of validation.

I feel she's interpreted this as 'doing whatever I want to prove herself'. It's not just sex, but there are things I like to do that I'd like to share with her, but I know she doesn't really like, for instance, going to the science museum and watching them do experiments. I take the kids a lot, always have. She usually didn't want to go pre-affair, but now, if we go she wants to tag along, which is fine if she wants to be there, but I get the feeling she doesn't.

Now, get her around a sewing circle (she's a crafty type) to knit or crochet or needle-point something and she's in heaven. I'm not interested in that stuff...AT ALL and I think most men wouldn't be. Pre-affair, she'd have friends over to craft and talk gossipy stuff and I'd just get out of the way. It was sometimes a little bit of a pain, if I had something going on, but a very manageable one. Now, it's like she won't make a move without my approval. Again, I like being in charge and taking that traditional male role, but I don't want her to be, or feel like, a door mat.

We live separately. I, in our original house, and her in an apartment about 1/2 mile down the road. If she wants her crafty friends over there I have no issue (I have no right to have one), but if I happen to want to come over or ask her out or whatever, she'll drop those plans and accommodate me. It would be no problem if she said she needed crafty time with her friends and I've told her so, but she almost screams NO, come on over or I'll be ready in 15 minutes or whatever.

I've talked about this with my counselor and in marriage counseling, but still it's like this invisible bubble.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm at a loss on how to proceed.

hikingout posted 8/30/2018 12:15 PM

Ah, this does sound a little differently nuanced.

Okay, first - people pleasing/conflict avoidance is something common for women, but I think often many wayward women here report this in excess. It's a sign of poor boundaries, lack of self-worth, and the ability to self-validate. This was a major area that I have been working on over the past year. It was the very first thing my IC had me doing exercises in.

Second, I can't tell and I am no professional but I would explore the topic of co-dependency. I don't know if this is an issue for her.

She is seeking validation through you, so she hasn't done some of the work that she needs to work on that could have been a contributing factor to her affair.


I think you are right to have these concerns. She needs to work on her self-worth, exhibiting her own personality, pursuing her own passions. That is a different topic than trying to make up acts to you sexually and I am sorry I misinterpreted.

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