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BS Questions for WS's - Part 12

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sickofsurviving posted 5/17/2018 16:38 PM

I apologize ahead if time if this comes across as catty.

Why do you think you shouldn't hate yourself? Especially after destroying the life of someone you supposedly love.

How do you rationalize being ok with that, while watching the destruction you caused? On purpose.

MidnightRun posted 5/17/2018 16:57 PM

Hikingout,

Thank you. Your responses are always insightful.

Darkness Falls posted 5/17/2018 17:05 PM

I think there’s a lot of room between hating oneself and “being ok with that” (having hurt the spouse by cheating). Not hating ourselves doesn’t mean we’re ok with it.

As far as why I shouldn’t hate myself: that would be an awful lot of wasted energy when I could be continuing to improve myself, for one. For another, as a person I’m way more than the worst thing I ever did. And for a third, self-indulgent self-hatred and -loathing is selfish, self-centered (there seems to be a “self” theme here, which is a red flag obviously) and an affront against God and the good He wants us to do in this mortal life.

Darkness Falls posted 5/17/2018 17:18 PM

Midnight,

I considered leaving my marriage right away—but not disclosing—back then, if I had gotten my way I would never have told him WHY I was divorcing.

Darkness Falls posted 5/17/2018 17:26 PM

Motod,

Did your A/P's identity enhance or accentuate your passion or sexual pleasure in the affair?

Very much so

Was the A/P someone you had met previously, professionally or socially, who intrigued you as a possible lover if the opportunity presented itself?

He was my ex.

Did one of you pursue the other or did the interest develop mutually?

He pursued me technically but it was mutual

Did you feel a sense of victory or good fortune to acquire this person as your A/P?

Yes. As aforementioned he was my ex. He had dumped me when we were dating. To have him beg me back and be willing to do anything to be with me again and plead that it was all a mistake was a (messed-up, in retrospect) triumphant thrill.

hikingout posted 5/17/2018 19:47 PM

Darkness falls covered it pretty well.

I am not at all okay with what I have done but after almost a year of work I can tell you that the self hating wasn’t getting us anywhere. I eventually realized that I needed to do what I needed to get healthy in order to have a chance of healing my husband and our marriage. If you read my post again, I spent a long time in that cycle and still have times where it’s unbearable. But, for me to become a safe and enjoyable partner I needed to find healthy was of coping and building myself back up to be fitting enough to be my husbands wife. I don’t know if that day will come but Would you live and feel confidence in a bump on a log who just sits and feels sorry for themselves? Or do you want someone who is strong for you when you need it the most? I have just learned to own it all, and do my best, and help him see who I want to be for him. It depends on where you are in the process to have that perspective. I hate what I did. I hate that my husband is in pain. But I have to step up and be more than I was Nd to grow so that he and our marriage can benefit. Sitting and hating myself and feeling sorry for myself is not a vehicle that is going to get me there any more. That’s why I said the pain is just different than it once was. There is still a lot of pain but it’s not for me.

MrMagnolia posted 5/17/2018 21:57 PM

EDIT: I realized when I woke up and saw my original questions this morning that there wasn't an answer that would have made me feel better or worse about the situation.

If I'm breaking a rule by changing this I still have the original question saved and can repost...but since no one had yet answered it I would like to change mine to:

How are you feeling today?

That doesn't feel nearly as loaded, to me and I hope this does find you well :).

[This message edited by MrMagnolia at 7:21 AM, May 18th (Friday)]

OneInTheSame posted 5/18/2018 03:35 AM

I have a couple of questions:

#1 Was there ever a time during your affair that your BS could have said something that would have made you seriously reconsider what you were doing? If so, did any of you act on that?

#2 Did you ever talk about your spouse (not criticizing or complaining) with your AP? (My fWW says her AP/ex-gf often asked how I was, knowing I dealt with chronic health issues.) If so, how did you pull that off without feeling an intense sense of guilt over the betrayal you were engaging in . . . enough to make you stop?

Darkness Falls posted 5/18/2018 05:29 AM

OneInTheSame,

I don’t think there was anything he could have said that would have deterred me.

I talked about him on occasion, yes. Never in a negative way, but in the way you mentioned; casually and as a major part of my life. Because I wasn’t speaking badly about him, I did not feel guilty bringing him up in conversation or when the AP did. As with SO many things, I rationalized it away in that if I wasn’t being negative about him, then what did it really matter if I talked about him or not? It wasn’t like the AP and I both didn’t know I was married. (< those were my thoughts at the time.)

Jimmy1962 posted 5/18/2018 08:02 AM

I have a question for wayward wives. I keep asking my wife how was the sex with her lover, and she tells me that it was not different than sex with me. I asked her if she enjoyed it. Her answer is that she knows now that sex with no love or connection is not for her. To me all I get is non-answers. She responds, but I am not satisfied with her answers. I keep asking if she enjoyed the sex for the sex, forget love and connection, how was just the sex, did she enjoy it? Was he a good lover? All she will say is "I was there, I did it". Another non-answer.
My wife and my female therapist both tell me that sex to women is all the same from men, and there not much difference. I do not believe it. My wife says that she did not compare me to her lover. How could she not? He was younger, Buff and really well built, and I was flabby and chubby, and he is six inches taller than me. How in the hell could she not compare us? I call bullshit on her answers. To me she is lying. I have asked her what her whys were, and one was that she had never been with anyone else and was curios. Doesn't that seem like she was wanting a comparison by being curious??

pinkpggy posted 5/18/2018 08:32 AM

Jimmy-what do you want her answer to be, that it was better? You seem to assume that. I think for the time that has passed from your wives affair, she has mentally dulled the memories, and they have become tainted. She now can only look back at it through the lense of who she is at this moment.

In a situation where you are with someone new, and it is secret and taboo, it is only rational to think that it will be exciting and different, it is a rush of feelings, just like in any new relationship, but things are heightened because of the level of secrecy and perceived "danger" around the circumstances.

Sex with my AP was not better than with my husband. It was at first exciting (feeling desired, wanted, lusted after), I felt turned on but I could not have an orgasm because there was no emotional connection really. My AP was smaller in size and had erectile dysfunction and performance issues.

For most WW the affair is not about the sex, it is about the attention and the feeling of being desired. I think you can truly believe your wives words, I don't think she is lying to you. The SEX was not better. Maybe rephrase your question and ask her how did she feel to be desired by this man?

hikingout posted 5/18/2018 08:40 AM

Jimmy,

I will answer your question as honestly as I can. Often this answer is not well received or believed, but I am going to tell you exactly what I thought, think, etc.

First, let me say I kind of operate on the premise that women usually have as much access to sex as they want. There are exceptions, but generally speaking if a woman wants to get laid, she can. I am not saying there aren't men like that, but generally speaking, men often want more sex then they have. I see this all over the forum from the male posters, thus I don't believe it's a false assumption. So, the sex part, while some women might be seeking it, they are often really seeking something else. They may not realize it consciously (I didn't) but for me, in hindsight, I was seeking attention, someone who thought I was sexy and special, and the famous ego kibbles you see in so many posts. Women aren't operating under a feast or famine usually, so if you aren't that hungry it's just a meal.

So, I framed my answer a little. Now, to the more mechanics of the situation. I cringe when I say this because it's tainted with feeling disgusting now...but yes, at the time I enjoyed the sex. Being kissed, and touched, this is obviously not torture (unless it's bestowed upon someone who does not want it). Many believe that affair sex is this untouchable high, there is a passion unleashed to the likes that is unattainable in a marriage or by the person posting at least. That is most of the time just not true. It takes a long time to get to know a woman's body, responses, get her guard completely down, and let her be vulnerable and not as self-conscious. Self conscious could be about her body, her smells, her reactions, if it takes a long time to orgasm, if she needs something specific to orgasm, and on and on.

I should also say that this is coming from a person who had a short-term A, with few encounters.

So, for me, the sex was fine/good. It wasn't unlike sex I have had in the past. The AP in my situation was a good lover in that he was interested in whether he was pleasing me. But, he didn't possess a magic penis or special skills, and I don't even know what that those special skills would be. It's not a mystical thing at all - it's sex. We've all had it, we have had okay, good, great, etc. If you think of even the times you have had sex, my guess would be some of your favorite experiences would have been with your wife. I know all of my favorite experiences have been with my husband. Because, he knows me, he loves me, he knows my body, my responses, I can let my guard down with him, we've had a lot of practice. So, in that way there really isn't any comparison.

Also, like you describe - the AP in my situation was also very physically fit/muscular. My husband is strong, and I love his body, but objectively speaking he is not as fit. When it came to sex, it made no difference at all. Zero. In fact, it made me MORE self conscious.

I never had an orgasm with the OM. That doesn't erase or minimize the fact that I did have sex with him and had no business doing it at all. That I shared something that was reserved for my husband. But, I am telling you this so that you understand that the things you are worried about were not paramount to me, and it doesn't sound like it was to your wife.

I am not trying to make it seem better, it just is what it is, but the things you are torturing yourself with probably doesn't exist for your wife. She probably was more flattered that a younger, fit, man was finding her attractive than having some mind-blowing sexual experience.

I hope that answers your question. I agree your wife is skirting the issue, but probably because she doesn't see it the same way as you. The experience wasn't mind-blowing for her, and she does not understand your insecurities. I would agree with your MC - there isn't a huge difference between lovers - maybe the big difference between a good lover and a bad is just whether or not they are interested in your responses. Everything else is practicing choreography to get to the nuances of the two people. That's a dance that takes a long time to perfect, especially for a woman.


hikingout posted 5/18/2018 08:58 AM

#1 Was there ever a time during your affair that your BS could have said something that would have made you seriously reconsider what you were doing? If so, did any of you act on that?

I don't know. I don't think so, but I can't say with certainty. We had a stressful 18 months leading up to when the A started, so I guess early on there could have been some sort of conversation that might have impacted me. But, in reality, you get so wound up in it so quickly I don't know that anything would have helped.

#2 Did you ever talk about your spouse (not criticizing or complaining) with your AP? (My fWW says her AP/ex-gf often asked how I was, knowing I dealt with chronic health issues.)

Yes, I did talk about my H sometimes (not complaining - more like "we're going here", or "my h says that too", blah blah)

If so, how did you pull that off without feeling an intense sense of guilt over the betrayal you were engaging in . . . enough to make you stop?

Well, I can see where you are coming from on this question, but in reality it's not like it reminded me that I had a husband. I knew what I was doing the whole time. Talking about him here and there didn't "remind me" of what I was doing. When you are having an affair, you compartmentalize a lot and you do things that wouldn't make sense to most people. There would have been limits to that I think - if the AP started trying to tell me why he was better, or was always bagging on his wife, or trying to get me to bag on my husband. I think those things would have had more of an impact than a conversation of "We're going to dinner", "We're going on a trip this weekend with friends", etc.

I can see why it would bother you that he asked after your health. That's just so insincere and the question was posed to act like he cared about you or how she was dealing with the health issue. I think that was a manipulation that she likely overlooked.

hikingout posted 5/18/2018 09:26 AM

EDIT: I realized when I woke up and saw my original questions this morning that there wasn't an answer that would have made me feel better or worse about the situation.
If I'm breaking a rule by changing this I still have the original question saved and can repost...but since no one had yet answered it I would like to change mine to:
How are you feeling today?
That doesn't feel nearly as loaded, to me and I hope this does find you well :).

Mr. Magnolia,

I didn't see your original question. I am sure our answers might not make things better or worse, but could help with processing, both for you and for us. If you decide to repost, I will give it a look and do my best.

I am good today. This is the first weekend I have with H alone since the whole separation/divorce debaucle. We've kind of lived "normally" this week other than HB is still outta control Probably why I feel optimistic and good ;-) I look forward to spending some quality time together over the weekend and seeing if we can delve into some real discussions again. I feel like we had a good one last Friday, but then we had to tuck everything in for the kids and between work and regular life we've kind of let things sit. I won't be pushy, but I am going to broach some of it again to see where his thoughts are now. It's totally okay if he's still in the air on his decision, he might be for a long time, but I think we've had some time now and I would like to at least revisit everything. Hope you have a good weekend planned as well.

sickofsurviving posted 5/18/2018 09:47 AM

After the A, so many cheaters seem desperate to cling to their marriage. Can someone explain this to me?

This is a huge sticking point with me. I obviously didn't matter enough for my cheater not to break all the wedding vows. So why now? Especially those of you that got to the point of exchanging "I love you" Why is your marriage so important now?

hikingout posted 5/18/2018 10:24 AM

After the A, so many cheaters seem desperate to cling to their marriage. Can someone explain this to me?
This is a huge sticking point with me. I obviously didn't matter enough for my cheater not to break all the wedding vows. So why now? Especially those of you that got to the point of exchanging "I love you" Why is your marriage so important now?

I will try and tell you what it is for me, but I think that it's a very fair question and one that most BS's have. I know my husband has the same one.

For me, I was a cake eater. I didn't want to be rid of my marriage. I was being selfish and wanted both. When the A ended, my logical thinking was almost completely gone. Everything was a contradiction because my actions and feelings in having an affair was a contradiction. I wasn't far from actually leaving by then because things had twisted so much over time. I went to IC, and then a short time later went to my husband and confessed.

It didn't take a long time to realize that there wasn't really love with the AP. We manipulated each other and projected things onto each other that wasn't really there. It was a shack built on sand. I truly feel like he's a nobody now in my mind.

I clearly knew that the marriage we had pre-A (once I had my head out of my ass) had been a beautiful estate built on solid rock. I was a complete idiot for letting myself forget that, and by disregarding it completely. Desecrating it. Not valuing it or him. My husband was a better man by far and truly loved me. And, I was a disgusting person, with no integrity, ungrateful, selfish, entitled, etc. I had made some choices that if I could take back I would do about anything to do so. But, this is the real world and I can't.

When I told him, I expected that he would throw me out. But, I didn't want to be that person who hid it from him and tricked him into staying. I decided it was better to tell and let the cards fall where they may. He didn't want to split. He said that he loved me and we would try and work through it.

So, I committed to that, and so did he. He of course waffles because I have deeply hurt him, and recently asked for a divorce. But, at this time I am strong enough to keep trying, my heart is all in, and my actions too. When he initially offered me the second chance, I resolved myself that I was going to never stoop that low again, never not appreciate what we have. Because it truly has been a healthy, loving, good marriage (outside of A).

I wouldn't know a reason why I wouldn't want to try and work on it or why I wouldn't want it with all my heart. I accept if it's a deal breaker for him, and I would deserve that if it came to pass. But, if we can achieve a new history, and we can move past this we have so many years still to enjoy each other, love each other, and it gives me a chance to try and show him how sorry I am and how much I love him and want him.

R is hard on both people, but especially the BS. In my opinion, it takes both people to have a change of heart, and the I also believe WS has to do the changing of heart first. Because, in order to R, the WS has to be able to demonstrate the consistency, love, effort, and commitment for the BS to begin to feel the safety to start to believe.


Darkness Falls posted 5/18/2018 10:27 AM

Jimmy,

I agree that your wife is giving you non-answers. She is probably afraid to give you ACTUAL answers for fear of your reaction. Not saying that’s right or ok; just that it’s very common for WSs to utilize a lot of self-protection.

It’s possible of course that there wasn’t so much of a significant difference between sex with you and sex with the OM that she’s able to rationalize it as being so insignificant it’s not worth mentioning. Obviously different men CAN be different (and I’ve found that differences in sexual technique matter way more than difference in anatomy, fwiw) but overall the pure mechanics of sex are generally the same from partner to partner.

I agree that curiosity leads to comparison in a literal sense, but when she says she “didn’t compare” that could mean she didn’t actively do so with any kind of intent to ascribe “better” or “worse” to either of you.

You do have the right to straight answers to your questions but I would be careful not to assume that the answers must automatically be what you’re expecting.

MrMagnolia posted 5/18/2018 16:34 PM

During the A....

Did thoughts of your opposite partner not come into play during sex?

Like, even just as a flashing thought?

Did that add or subtract to the experience?

Did any part of you feel turned on more by the deception?

remorseandgrief posted 5/18/2018 17:02 PM

The pain experienced by those wayards who are deeply remorseful is real. Perhaps it was asked earlier, but how do you cope with sporadic self loathing, which at times I'm sure is paralyzing?

Thanks for asking this question and thanks, hikingout, for your response.

I certainly have times of self-loathing. I often feel depressed and feel like I am living in slow motion.

This has changed over 4 years. In the beginning I was in denial regarding the seriousness of my betrayal and did not recognize the depth of pain and trauma I caused my husband. As I began to realize that, I had to take full responsibility. I also had to examine my character issues and own up to them. And I had to change my wayward behavior.

So each time I feel like a horrible person, I have to stop and imagine what my husband is thinking and feeling and how to address these issues. Not focus so much on myself.

In addition, I have to sit with the feelings and and think, "My behavior was horrible. I deserve to feel this way."

I have examined how I could have been a person who betrayed my husband. I understand myself and my behavior better.

I have examined my values and feelings and realize what is most important to me. I value being open and honest and living up to my vows to my husband, which I betrayed. My husband and our family are the most important things to me. I love my husband. I formulated the person I want to be.

Now I try to live each day as the person I want to be. I try to face each conflict and issue openly and honestly, try to not hide my head and withdraw, although it remains difficult for me. I can then look back and realize that I have survived, that communication with my husband is actually a little better. I can then gain some hope that things might get better in the future. I try to let my husband know how much I love him and that I am forever committed to him. I gain a sliver of self-respect in trying to do these things every day. In addition, I try to bring up issues, be proactive. This feels good. Being active, not passive, as is my tendency. I put one foot in front of the other and keep going.

I read somewhere, maybe Shirley Glass, Not Just Friends,
that for every negative action it takes many, many positive actions to try to make up for it. Not that I can ever completely make up for my affair. The more serious the negative action, the more positive actions and the longer it takes to make any progress.

I read and post on SI. I am not the only WW.

I also focus on being a good grandmother to my grandchildren. I sometimes do some things right.


Darkness Falls posted 5/18/2018 17:06 PM

What is an opposite partner? Is that the affair partner?

I hated the deception and wasn’t turned on by it at all. I hated that I was such a coward.

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