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BS Questions for WS's - Part 12

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hikingout posted 5/25/2018 10:18 AM

Midnight run,

I have been following and answering your questions long enough to know your intention with your question, and it was a good one.

I will just say that if my H asked me that I would explore what elicited the question/statement. He knows the damage that the A did and if he still had that feeling I would need to understand more. My A was my decision and not the fault of my husband or our marriage. So if he wanted to have one, I would ask the same that is asked of me. Why not divorce? Was he looking to open the marriage. While I donít think by any means two wrongs make a right, he would be having that feeling for a reason and I would just talk openly with him about it.

hikingout posted 5/25/2018 10:23 AM

Jinks.
I am not sure I understand your question. But I think the root is that you are saying the A tainted everything that came before it. I think thatís understandable to feel that way, my H had had that as well.

For me, everything before the A was true and good. I was faithful both mentally and physically. We had a great marriage. I think what you describe is the fallout, the death of the old marriage, and you have no foundation anymore after the A. That has to be rebuilt, but I am not sure if everything stays tainted in the before or not. I am not far enough along. So I am not sure I have the answer you are seeking or not, or if I understood it correctly. I can only tell you despite my dispicacable actions I loved him before and I love him now. I think there is still honesty and truth before and to be had again.

MrMagnolia posted 5/25/2018 12:33 PM

I doubt anyone will find this as funny as I just did and you can just skip ahead to the blank for the relevant question if you don't care to read but....

I'm required to sit in on a bunch of useless (for me) meetings for my job just so that I can be introduced and then nod and smile and stay until the end of a presentation/etc. So just now I'm stuck in one of these meetings between my company and three dudes in some idiotically expensive Armani (I'm guessing) suits and as I often do I start checking my phone and reading through this thread. Then for some reason, I get a very vivid mental image "vision" (call it a mind movie) because of this quote...

hot monkey sex

I get this image of a chimpanzee dressed in one those suites opening the door into a bedroom where an orangutang dressed in lingerie is draped across a bed and then I just lost it. Spit out some of the water I was drinking on the floor and tried (and failed I'm sure) to pretend I was coughing and stumbled out of the meeting room. It's not even that funny but for some reasons thinking of the monkeys in the suits just did me in. I think it might have been a commercial I saw once or something but ahhhhhh yeah I got issues.
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I was thinking of the Questions that Larryh and Midnight were asking and hikingout's response as well and just wanted to point out a distinction that may or may not be getting lost in translation. An A in MY mind and the way I believe it to be understood by most of SI is an inappropriate personal relationship between a 3rd party and one of the partners in an M that occurs WITHOUT the other M partner's CONSENT (and usually knowledge). The RA's I often hear described by BS do not fit that type of definition exactly. It's usually (not always) coming from men and I think focused on the Sexual aspects of the A. I'll butter up the likely distasteful question a bit better and see if I can bridge that gap.

Understand that I'm not necessarily asking the question of whether you think a course of action would be prudent or reasonable (though your welcome to answer those as well) I'm looking to hear what your answer would be and what you're feeling about that answer and your feelings when being asked.


So.....

If, right after D-day, your BS told you that they felt that their sexual identity had been destroyed by the A and that they believe strongly that it could be restored if they were to explore sex with another person outside of the M with your consent, would you CONSENT to allow them to do so?

In other words, would you be willing/capable of "opening" the marriage at least in the short-term in order to help them with their healing process?

That to my ears (and I know to some it won't make a difference) is a very different question than: Would you be able to accept that your BS went and had sex outside of your M without your CONSENT (Revenge Affair)?

MrsWalloped posted 5/25/2018 13:53 PM

Iím glad I made you laugh.

Iíve given my opinion on the subject many times. Both the without consent and with consent versions. So Iím not go to restate them beyond a simple ďnoĒ to both types.

I will challenge you on the ďwith consentĒ question, however. What does consent look like to you? Is strongly pressured considered consent? Backed into a corner, is that consent?

So, itís right after DDay and my BH tells me

that they felt that their sexual identity had been destroyed by the A and that they believe strongly that it could be restored if they were to explore sex with another person outside of the M with your consent.
The implication is that if I say no, then it canít and our M is over. Or thereís the fear that simply saying no means automatic D. So if I say yes, does that mean I really consent? Or is it that Iím pressured into a situation, yes of my own making, but still pressured where Iím backed into or pushed into saying yes even if I really donít want to? Do you really believe that any WS would really be totally 100% okay with their spouse having sex with someone else?

So, I donít believe there truly is such a thing as your ďwith consentĒ question.

Darkness Falls posted 5/25/2018 14:00 PM

^^ What she said.

In fact, Iím rather well-known on SI for feeling like supposed ďRĒ is often full of ultimatums, threats, cercions, and the like anywayóin other words, Iím too cynical to believe that the scenario youíre describing could ever actually be a ďrequestĒ at all.

I canít realistically answer your question because such a scenario would never occurómy husbandís self-worth is not tied up in his sexual identity.

Rideitout posted 5/25/2018 14:04 PM

How about we frame it differently. "I'm going to sleep with other people for awhile, I still love you, and I do want to stay married, but I need this for me". Does that change it at all? Yes, you'll be getting a D if you say no, but it's not about you, it's about the BS?

It's kind of all hypothetical in my mind; it's near impossible for a man to find someone who's really open to this arrangement, so, having a RA or even an open marriage often is going to involve a whole lot of lying (or lying by omission) unless you're talking professionals. But I'm kind of curious, would that discussion change things?

MrsWalloped posted 5/25/2018 14:27 PM

Rideitout,

Hmmm...letís look at this way.

A newly betrayed BW shows up in JFO. Her story is that her WH basically said to her

I'm going to sleep with other people for awhile, I still love you, and I do want to stay married, but I need this for me.
What do you think the universal SI reaction would be to that?

Further, what if another poster recommended she says yes because her WH made it clear that sheíll

be getting a D if you say no, but it's not about you, it's about the
WH who we are told has recently gone through some very tough personal issues. What would SI wisdom say to that poster?

Barregirl posted 5/25/2018 14:43 PM

Rideitout, I don't think it matters how you frame it. The situation boils down to "you hurt me, so I will hurt you". My BH is not that kind of man, and never will be. Even if you use a classic from the cheaters 101 handbook, it still doesn't make it ok. I get the impression that you are looking for a WW to say, "Of course you are entitled to an RA." My question then becomes why would anyone want to do what will ultimately become the worst thing you have ever done? Seeing the kind of person you must be in order to have an A is incredibly painful for a remorseful WS, and I would never want my BH to have to go through that, on top of the sh*t I have already put him through. And by saying that, I in no way mean my pain is anything compared to his. Only that I wouldn't want that pain to compound.

ArtPatchedHeart81 posted 5/25/2018 15:03 PM

Ever-trying

Waywards,
For those of you in LTA (over a year) or were "in love" with your AP, why did you stay with your spouse? What were the reasons you didn't leave to be with your AP? Those having an A with another married person, were you waiting for them to leave their BS?

When I found out he lied about status:
He said he had to ďstay putĒ a while or she would get everything. (I donít believe this)

After she started emailing me an insane amount:
He said she was crazy and suicidal and he thought she may actually go through with it. (I couldnít determine if he was concerned or hoping to cash in)

After he text ďI only want youĒ:
Stays with wife? (I should have sent her these texts but felt guilty), reunites with OW 1 and 2, and gets brand new OW #4! (Guess he had room left on his calendar since I wasnít easily swayed - plenty of free time and young new hires are two of the cheater perks of government supervisory work)

MrsWalloped posted 5/25/2018 15:21 PM

Hi Trying2copeinMD.

Iím sorry for not replying sooner.

At what point in that growing relationship did you realize that lines were being crossed? Did you realize that you were crossing a line that could be impactful to those around you, and how did you activate to your BS immediately after?

I think I answered this earlier, but the first time he tried to hold my hand. There were some questionable touches before that. But he held my hand like in one of those two handed reassuring ways over the table at a cafe. I pulled my hand back. But not right away. Thatís when it first really occurred to me. But the truth is lines were crossed much earlier when I talked to him about my husband and my marriage and shared things I had no business sharing.

Could you please clarify your last question? What do you mean ďactivate?Ē

MidnightRun posted 5/25/2018 15:54 PM

Mrs. Wallop,

Your remark, ".... when I talked to him about my husband and my marriage and shared things I had no business sharing."

You essentially paraphrased my ex wife's comments.

What prompted you to be so revealing about your marriage and personal life?

MrMagnolia posted 5/25/2018 16:21 PM

Mrs. W,

I actually do think you've answered those questions pretty fully previously and though my story was related directly to your comment and those idiots in their suits. (I really wish I had a picture to share because monkey suit has never been more appropriate than for these tool bags) However, the question I offered was more about trying to find a focused way to approach the issues than the broad stroke and weasel it down approach and I'm actually trying to extract more complete answers such as yours and hikingouts from other WW as well as consider what answer is really sought out by BS's when they ask things along the lines of such questions.

Thank you for challenging my question.

While I'll concede that consent may not exist for you, and that's perfectly reasonable, I can assure you there does exist such a thing as consent to allowing such things to take place. I can say so because it's something I've had a partner consent to allow for me to do and also something I've consented to allow a partner to do in several previous "open" relationships. At least in one example I can even say we both entered into the relationship with eyes wide open. So while I can't speak for the other party definitively by all indications, we both gave our consent freely and willingly.

Now such an arrangement is not something I'm interested in being a part of now and I sure as fuck didn't give anything in the realm of my consent to have my STBXWW do what she did any more than any other BS without such history gave away their consent to there WS. I'm only begrudgingly bringing this up because it's a different perspective from which I view some things and it's making me wonder if there isn't another angle that some may be missing or failing to see clearly.

I'll take the question to a purely conceptual level and try again with you if you don't mind. (after reading your posts I think I might be able to answer these for you but i've been surprised before)

Mrs W.

If I'm understanding the process correctly (and I'm an alien in observation mode on this for sure so tell me when and where I miss things, please) is the spirit of the R process not supposed to be that you work towards a goal and let go of the outcome?

So if you are working toward the goal of healing and not worrying about the outcome wouldn't that remove the pressure behind those implications of negative outcomes?

If so I would think that:

You're going to only consider that your BS is asking for you to allow something that you don't want to happen and your only considering because you also have the desire to help him heal?

There internal pressures at play there for sure but I don't think those are the same as those behind the implications you mentioned.

What if it's a partially fixed outcome that it will result in the R path either way? Does it change things?

So if your BS is going to stay regardless of the decision made but there are indications that him having a sexual adventure would help him to heal from the pain of the A?

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I literally could write five to ten paragraphs on consent vs. forced consent vs non-consent and so on and will be happy to share but I am going to refrain from doing so for the moment as I don't want to T/J too far. I've got a whole lot written already so I'm not opposed to sharing or discussing my thoughts about it either here or even a new thread.

MrsWalloped posted 5/25/2018 16:35 PM

What prompted you to be so revealing about your marriage and personal life?

I used to see my AP a few times a week,as part of my volunteer work. We organized events together, designed donor pamphlets, things like that. I was going through a rough emotional patch. I was grieving over my double miscarriage and I wasnít handling my daughter getting married very well. I was happy for her, but it hit me in ways I hadnít expected. On top of that my husband was very busy with work and basically left the wedding planning to me. So I wasnít in the best of moods and he asked me how I was nearly every time we saw each other. I needed someone to talk to but I couldnít talk to anyone IRL. So I told him. He was ďsafe.Ē Ha. But he was someone who didnít know me or my family. Anonymous so to speak. So I unloaded to him. The rest, well you know.

MrsWalloped posted 5/25/2018 16:46 PM

MrMagnolia,

I understand people have open relationships and that there is consent in those situations. I think itís very different when thereís a WS and a BS. Thatís not the same thing at all. Iím not equipped to talk about cheating in an open relationship, but thatís not what weíre talking about. I assume itís not an open relationship. Therefore, there is no consent.

As for the rest, Iím not really into hypothetical questions. Thereís a lot I could pick apart in your questions. But basically, for me, the answer is no in all situations. No matter how people try to twist into a pretzel to make it seem less tawdry or cruel than it is.

MrMagnolia posted 5/25/2018 17:44 PM

Mrs. W,

My intent was not to offend or to twist the question in a way that would make you reconsider your position. I certainly did not intend to make it less cruel or tawdry (awesome word btw) than it is because it is a hard a consideration. Like I said youíve answered these completely already to a degree further than Iíve found them answered by others. So, thank you and all WW that have offered their thoughts.

I was working through an exercise to strengthen my question based on your challenge. I should not have addressed you directly or erased that portion after I finished (as I hold focus better if Iím addressing an individual)

I want to be clear that I donít think that there anything wrong with saying NO sex outside of M and I can draw up other valid reasons outside of what youíve already given previously. Iím not trying to disprove or trap you. The quick answers you gave us perfectly adequate.

Everyoneís core beliefs are their own and I am seeking to understand how to ask and understand that for individuals in a way that helps me understand it better. My questions are conceptual because I lack either the ability (intellect) or tools (vocabulary) to ask them within a real world framework. I take no offense if you dont want to answer them. I apologize for if you or anyone feels like I am attacking.

GoldenR posted 5/25/2018 22:27 PM

Assuming those that answer are in R or at least wanted to R, my question is, Why break NC? Especially if you were told if you break NC it means D.

hikingout posted 5/25/2018 23:24 PM

Mr magnolia/Rideitout

I donít know the answer really. If my H wanted to reconsider opening our marriage my biggest concern is that takes a lot of trust in which I have demolished. I have never heard of a one-sided open marriage, but I would not choose to participate in seeing other people. I have seen enough of the ramifications and have no desire to go outside of my relationship again for any reason. ZERO. If he wanted to, I do have trust but total trust would mean no fear...we are at a rocky time, thanks to my cheating, I would be concerned most at the timing of it and what it means for our repair. And I would have many other concerns. But, I donít know that it would be off the table. We were in an open relationship when we were dating decades ago, so my answer stems from understanding how that works and what it means to us. But I wouldnít do it because of feeling itís owed or retribution. It would have to seem healthy, and at this point I donít believe thatís possible.

hikingout posted 5/25/2018 23:28 PM

Goldenr- I never broke NC, but I do understand how it happens I think. Limerance, addiction, believing that you are soul mates. The delusions.

jinkazama posted 5/26/2018 00:52 AM

Do you ever think about your bs as your soulmates.

If no then why?

If yes then why?

Darkness Falls posted 5/26/2018 01:07 AM

GoldenR,

By the time we got back together I had only had work-related contact with AP for two years, so n/a.

Jinkazama,

No. I donít believe in soulmates. I believe there are many people each of us are compatible with and could be in a happy relationship with. The notion that out of billions in the world, there is One (and we just happened to find them) is ridiculous.

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