SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Recently, Heart has been dealing with grief. I'll let her tell her own story, but it has impacted me in that it has made me focus on the grief that I have caused her, and how it's coming somewhat full-circle back to the both of us together.

Particularly, I am a fair writer and story teller, which is why I was drawn to Erotic Role-Playing online. In so doing, I abused the 'specialness' that was Role-Playing for the two of us alone. And, now, I'm realizing I might not ever get to role-play with my beloved Heart ever again.

That's definitely the biggest one and at the forefront of my concerns. There are, of course, other things I have done/said that have ruined special events, places, and activities, but that one up above is definitely the one that's hitting me the hardest right now.

I originally thought that since she is made of so much tougher stuff that when she started the healing process, all things would heal equally well. While some aspects have healed amazingly well, this one still hurts.

So, I come to those of you who know better than I do because you've been through this before me:

How do I deal with this grief?

I both want to be able to mourn and bury the things that we have loved doing together, as well as have the strength and ability to be there for Heart as she processes this grief, and I feel like I'm failing at both.

So, you are grieving the loss of future role playing with your beloved heart?

Her pain manifests negatively at your actions and your concern is with how you will deal with that grief or loss of what you 2 can't do together? Just want to make sure I am hearing you correctly.

Kbeguile, I can't ever really get a read on your posts.

You "ruined" the marriage. Period. Affairs are the nuclear bomb with the existing ground left toxic and lethal.

Moving literally or figuratively is the only way I can think of that two can try to build a new relationship.

Grieving that loss, even if it's inflicted by self is a part of the process. I know I grieved and while I didn't reconcile there were parts of myself I had to grieve and mourn.

She is made of tougher stuff? I think she'd have to be. Your posts seem rather tone deaf, to say the least. If she wasn't, I'd fear for your safety but perhaps I'm projecting.

If you role played with other's I don't care if you were Hunter Fucking Thompson I'm sure it'd be a real raw activity.

That's part of the whole toxic waste dump we dish for our partner and ourselves. Things that were fun are anchored to pain now.

I'm sure with work and time that can change. We see it here often. The key is work and a real understanding of the true damage inflicted. I just don't see that from you. At all.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 6:08 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

Particularly, I am a fair writer and story teller, which is why I was drawn to Erotic Role-Playing online. In so doing, I abused the 'specialness' that was Role-Playing for the two of us alone. And, now, I'm realizing I might not ever get to role-play with my beloved Heart ever again.

That's definitely the biggest one and at the forefront of my concerns.

You're really missing something here, and it's that you abused the 'specialness' that was YOU and, in doing so, became 'common'.

^^^^^ TIKY & UO 100%.

If UO's post makes you mad, which I hope it does, it's a good thing. I'm saying that not to pick on you so bear with me. For one, getting mad is an emotion which will prove you're not devoyed of them. Secondly, once you reread her post a few times, maybe something will sink in and get you thinking. Take your time, step back and really soak in what UO just told you. It may truly be one of the keys you've been searching for.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 7:13 PM, June 23rd (Sunday)]

Allow me to clarify:

I'm well aware of ruining the marriage, though I freely admit that I hadn't considered the full spectrum of events it would touch. I have been wary of intentional triggers, and I do everything I can to ease Heart through the triggers that aren't intentional. She has told me many times that I am doing everything she could ask of me and more, but there are some things she feels like she must do/confront alone; if there's one thing I know about her, it's that when her mind is made up, there is no changing it.

hardlessons said:

Her pain manifests negatively at your actions and your concern is with how you will deal with that grief or loss of what you 2 can't do together? Just want to make sure I am hearing you correctly.

Both, in part. I want to help her through her grief, especially since I'm the one who caused it and the damage it inflicted. However, I also want to respect her personal space and need to deal with these issues on her own.

On the other side, it's an activity that I've ruined that we both used to enjoy. Worse, while I was having As, I began to view/treat RP with Heart as a chore. I'd huff and roll my eyes and complain when she wanted to do it, because it wasn't "what I wanted to do." So, I've done double-duty on that one: made it a sore spot, and then driven the wound home by taking away what she thought was "special" about it.

I think I've come to grips with not doing it for myself. I have several groups of people who would be willing to run games like D&D and Pathfinder and such for me, but I have not taken the invitation. It seems hollow without Heart, and I'm just not that into it without her.

No, what I feel is a loss of the joy in her face and eyes and smile when we'd break out dice and paper together. Knowing that I personally tarnished this and flushed it down the toilet just makes it all the worse to have to choke down, even though I know I'm going to have to. Same with my writing; she was, in essence, my Muse, and I threw the magic away.

uncertainone said:

Moving literally or figuratively is the only way I can think of that two can try to build a new relationship.

Of course, you're right. It's very self-centered of me to want that particular parcel of ground to have resolved its own toxicity in such a short time period. We make efforts to clean it up together, but you're right. It's too toxic right now. I will offer here, though, that I have not (until recent weeks, when I've been toying with a new system) pressed the issue; the choice has always been hers to elect to do or not to do.

uncertainone said:

If she wasn't, I'd fear for your safety but perhaps I'm projecting.

How so? I'm morbidly curious here.

uncertainone said:

I just don't see that from you. At all.

And, what should I be doing, in your opinion, that you don't see me otherwise doing? Out of everything you've said, this is the only sour note I hear. I completely concur with all the other points you make.

Let's stick to the subject at hand. KBeguile is asking for support about a specific situation.

If you cannot keep to the topic, please stay away from the thread.

Thank you.

I apologize. I thought I was addressing the specific situation. Grieving is something I went through.

Mourning a very real loss of myself.

You post about a toy you both used together that expanded your intimacy and was enjoyed by both. You shared that toy with others making it now a huge reminder of the pain of your choices.

You stated you thought she was made of tougher stuff. I'm not sure how that comment can be made when a BS chooses to stay and try to reconcile. Hell, regardless of that ...just healing. That's pretty fucking tough stuff indeed.

Expecting her to enjoy, or even try to enjoy a pleasure the two of you experienced that you then shared with "the group" is insensitive at its best.

That led to the rest of what I wrote. You don't do. You feel. That pleasure was removed from her as well. It's her loss too. That's not to say it will be gone forever.

What have you lost Kbeguile? What besides an activity that you both enjoyed have you lost? Your ability to write is still there, right? What part of you do you grieve?

The roll playing can be a part of both your lives again in time. There is much you can do to help her feel safe. To me, that would start with feeling what she feels. Understanding the depth of her pain. Using that understanding to shape your interactions with her, your own thought processes, patterns of behavior and choices work.

It may not be "gone forever" at all. Grieving it may be premature. You haven't been on here even a year. Time and consistent work.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 10:26 AM, June 24th (Monday)]

You stated you thought she was made of tougher stuff. I'm not sure how that comment can be made when a BS chooses to stay and try to reconcile. Hell, regardless of that ...just healing. That's pretty fucking tough stuff indeed.

UO,I read that statement from him that he recognized how tough she is to consider R and that's what surprised him... that he realizes how very tough she has to be in order to R, and he didn't expect the healing process for this issue to be tougher than that.

And I think, from my fWW/fOW chair as well as my fBW chair, that was the MOST surprising aspect of this whole mess. Things that seemed insurmountable and huge, turned out to be not such a big deal. And things that seemed minor and insignificant sometimes became the biggest hills to try to get across. None of it makes sense, none of it is what you thought it would be at the start.

I read it the same way, hfssc. And that's why it surprised me.

20+ online friends and 7 ea pa. This activity was directly related with the online friends. They joined in feb 2013.

I'm not surprised this activity would not be able to be introduced right now. I'm more surprised it's being "grieved" so soon and think much has been jumped that can help establish the safety to where that activity can be enjoyed again, maybe.

How do I deal with this grief?

Well I guess I hope this is on topic. I question the grief only because it still seems like you are playing a role KB. You couch your words is a wonderful way and yet what is the value of those words.

What is the grief really about? I ask that because multiple times you reference "us" or Heart. What is YOUR grief? Is it that people in your life are going off script?

hardlessons said:

Well I guess I hope this is on topic. I question the grief only because it still seems like you are playing a role KB. You couch your words is a wonderful way and yet what is the value of those words.

What is the grief really about? I ask that because multiple times you reference "us" or Heart. What is YOUR grief? Is it that people in your life are going off script?

I've thought about this the last few days. I know I use a lot of words to convey my ideas. Like you said in PMs, hardlessons, a three-word response from me is deafening silence.

I think, in part, it stems from my training as a poet and writer: always searching for the exact words to use. Only, in this sense, it really doesn't fit well. I'm also often told I type the way I speak, so perhaps I need to think about how often/when/how I use my voice. (continued below)

uncertainone said:

What have you lost Kbeguile? What besides an activity that you both enjoyed have you lost? Your ability to write is still there, right? What part of you do you grieve?

MY grief, since I am to dissociate it from Heart's (since I can't know hers) is that I long for the two of us to share these activities that I know we both have loved doing. It further pains me to know that I have all these ideas and nowhere to put them.

I don't feel like writing because, to coin a phrase, I can still see the 'floater' I left in that particular pool. It hurts when I try to think about writing, especially since the only audience I want to be creative for is Heart.

I have so many ideas and stories I want to tell, but I am saving them for a very select audience, and she's not in the mood to listen/participate right now. I don't know if any of the rest of you are creative types, but when the one person in the world you want to create art for can't appreciate the art you want to create (at least, perhaps, not at the moment) -- well, it gets to the point where I curse the urge even being there in the first place.

You are right. I could write, if I wanted to. I could find others to RP with, if I wanted to. My problem is that I don't want to; I want these things to be special and reserved for Heart again, only I can't do that by myself, and I'm the one that ruined it in the first place.

My fear stems from the fact that, like HFSSC said, things I expected to take an eternity to heal seem to be on the mend quite steadily, while things I expected to be healed fairly quickly are taking much longer to heal -- even to the point that they may never heal, and I suppose I am struggling with that very real possibility.

Hang up the "I'm an artist, you probably wouldn't understand" bull shit. Stop using the tired excuse, "I'm a writer".

Get to the bottom line. Don't use your insecurities as an excuse anymore. What are YOU, just YOU wanting? Fuck eloquence. This isn't a writing forum this is an infidelity form.

Trip posted

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 12:07 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

See? I just fucked up and I'm still here. Three times actually. Shows how impatient I am.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 12:09 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

KB I have to agree with SLH. I feel like when I read your posts your searching for something but you say the phrase "I'm a writer" often. I feel like you hide behind this, use your way with words as a shield to not get down to the nitty gritty. How are you grieving, healing, changing? The emphasis on you.

The thing about artistic writing and poetry is that the collection of words can be used equally to reveal or conceal the truth. Do you have any training or experience as an editor as well?

I'm sure as a mathematician you understand that the elegant solution contains as few terms as possible.

t/j

SLH, I believe that an accidental triple posting is just the internets way of trying to invoke the Beetlejuice effect.

First, I never said do them with others. Ever.

Second, why do you feel things have healed quickly? Do you honestly feel she's "healed" from any of this?

Yeah, I'm creative. Most on here are. I create for myself, my children, my SO, my friends.

You've been together just 4 years. You've "created" an enormous amount of destruction in that short span.

Maybe it's her turn to create. Let her take the lead. Start to see her narrative. Feel her pace.

Writers aren't very good, to me, unless they can truly understand and feel their subject. Reading biographies and seeing how well the author knows his subject is what, for me, is the difference between a great book and basically just a time line.

You might write very well in first person, as that may be your focus. Try viewing through her eyes. Feel her pain.

You talk about sharing the activities but I don't see that from what you describe. I see you driving the process completely and she played a part you may have enjoyed and placed her in. You also placed others in that same spot as playmates. That's not shared. It's directed.

I honestly feel from reading your post and responses that you want to "play". Your sources have been cut off. Heart, understandably is completely unable to participate right now.

So, again, other than your outsourced playmates what have you recognized or see about you that you've lost by your choices? Nowhere do I see anything that shows how your choices and actions horrified you. Do you feel that or are you only seeing how they've limited you in your current relationship?

What do you feel you need to work on to become a safe person for your wife?

That work can bring about the possibility of what you're currently grieving. If she feels safe with you, there is no reason to believe that is lost forever.

uncertainone said:

So, again, other than your outsourced playmates what have you recognized or see about you that you've lost by your choices? Nowhere do I see anything that shows how your choices and actions horrified you. Do you feel that or are you only seeing how they've limited you in your current relationship?

What do you feel you need to work on to become a safe person for your wife?

That work can bring about the possibility of what you're currently grieving. If she feels safe with you, there is no reason to believe that is lost forever.

You're all absolutely right. I'm hiding behind things still. I just didn't realize it.

Today, I'm even more open to criticism, because I feel like these points have led me all the way back to Square One. I can see positive changes I've made, but they don't seem like they're me, if that makes any sense.

Perhaps it's just how I feel today. I don't know.

I have expressed, in private and in counseling, my hatred for my actions, my choices, and the damage I personally did to my family. I think I've been holding back saying these things in this forum because I don't believe it's any of your (collective) business as to how I feel, nor is it particularly constructive to watch me verbally beat a dead horse. One of my boundaries has been in revealing too much internal personal/marital information (something I often did that Heart objected to, and something that led me into making bad decisions in the first place), so this is probably already over that line, and I hate myself for betraying that boundary (I've never had them before, and I struggle with them now), even if this hasn't actually crossed it.

I could have endangered my health, my wife's health, and probably have ruined my DS for life through my neglect. This is completely off-topic, but if that's what needs to be seen of me before people will offer help, then so be it. I'm a broken man with nothing to show for his actions except a trail of tears and broken people in my wake. I threw out, used, and abused so many good years and good relationships for the sake of my own indulgence, and the more distance I put between myself and those times and places, the more it just seems I took and took and took because I could and because I didn't give a rat's ass about anyone else's happiness or well-being.

Now that I have turned myself completely to Heart - where I should have been all along - and wanting to give her everything I can give, because she is the one who deserves the benefits of my abilities above and beyond anyone else (another boundary has been to quit being such a damn KISA and offering my abilities and talents to just anyone who seems to marginally want or need them). One of those abilities happens to be my skills at creating memorable worlds, stories, and characters. I don't want to share that gift with anyone else now, because it would be almost as meaningless as the relationships I had with people outside my marriage.

I only want to share this gift with Heart now, but she isn't healed enough to participate. Like she once told me, it's as if I proposed to her with a very unique, very spectacular, one-of-a-kind diamond engagement ring, only to find out that I proposed to half the known world with the same ring. It loses its meaning, its specialness, its sacredness.

I guess this is wound up in the greater issue of trust. She can't trust me completely now, which means she can't feel safe, which means she can't open herself to me, which means she can't open the part of her that trusts me to keep RP between the two of us as being something special, significant, and meaningful.

Thank you all for making me think, even though it hurts.

ing @aesir