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After 43 years....

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Bigger posted 12/6/2020 08:11 AM

I wont even pretend to understand and know the intricates of pension in California. However the rule-of-thumb in all divorce is mutual agreement. My suggestion is not one where you deny your WW your pension, but rather where you offer her financial compensation in the form of an up-front payment. DEFINIELY 100% talk to an attorney but generally if what you offer is fair and both agree its accepted by the court. Maybe the key is how your passing might impact her payments. It probably varies between states and funds, but I know my momís pension payments from my dads pension dropped a lot when he passed.
What Iím suggesting is a variation of what lottery-winners are offered: 10 million up-front, or a payment of 1 million for 20 years. You Ė as a lottery winner calculate risk factors (like will you live to collect for 20 years), taxes and inflation versus the benefits of a one-off payment and investing the rest.

Mention the house. Why remain in it? Why pay your WW rent? Iím just about -10 years from where you are and Iím thinking of selling my fantastic, ideal, every-corner-adjusted-to-my-needs, raised-my-kids-in-it home in the next 5 year simply to downsize. At +65 I want to spend my time fishing or golf rather than painting that picket-fence one more time or mowing the lawn or clearing the gutters. Iím going to get me a nice condo with a HOA that does all that crap.
Remember: Your wife wants OUT. She wants to fly to France. She doesnít want to spent time with the house on the market in a slow-selling period, doesnít want to be an absentee landlord, pay utilities and taxes on a property she doesnít use. You can pressure her into selling you her half, like maybe in lieu of her keeping her company.

Company not worth anything? WellÖ you counter that statement with the one about her planning on selling her partner her half. Can you imagine this conversation: Hi partner, what would you pay for half a worthless company? Even with what her partner shared with you then I doubt they both want to walk away from a profitable business when they could possibly get something for their brand-value and market-share.
Stay firm on your claim: I want half the company (25%) and will get the value when itís sold. Then use it as change for the concessions you might be willing to make (like: instead of a 50/50 division of assets regarding the house then I get 75% and you get 25% and instead I forfeit any claim to Adventure Travels).
If the company was profitable pre-covid it has value. There is light at the end of the tunnel and the travel industry will be back with a bang in the next 4-6 months. In a totally non-political but pure statistical way then if they start vaccinating in January and if people have the sense to get vaccinated then travel will pick u in April-May.

Are the IRAís evened out? Do you have a claim to the value of half what her is larger than yours? 130k/2=65k. Once again: Maybe not go for the money but rather more equity in the house.

Note that I have never suggested anything unfair. Iím suggesting placing value on all marital assets Ė THAT is fair.

[This message edited by Bigger at 8:12 AM, December 6th (Sunday)]

Dan90254 posted 12/8/2020 18:29 PM

After meeting with attorney mediator we decided to split everything in the middle except the house which I will occupy and maintain. Property taxes will be shared equally.
My pension? She agreed to take only 30% to make both our revenues ( incomes...):equal. If that is possible and legal. The attorney said by not paying rent to her half would compensate for the 50% she would get from my pension. Even WW thought that was stupid. We want to get out of this mess with as little acrimony and resentment as possible with a fair $$ solution.
What do you guys think?

survrus posted 12/8/2020 19:10 PM


Not a bad outcome considering the nature of the OM, he has not encouraged her to milk you dry, so run with it.

What happens if your WW dies before you do, does the % you were paying to her return to you or the OM?

Given that the OM cheated on his exW he will cheat on your WW as well, so it's best to get out while your WW is unaware of the trap she is headed towards.

You can always get remarried on your terms if she comes back.

survrus posted 12/8/2020 19:12 PM

If there ever was a thread about the dangers of Ex'es in marriage this is it.

Bigger posted 12/9/2020 04:43 AM

Initial reaction: sounds fair.
Had to start with that because the following comments might indicate otherwiseÖ

Could you clarify the house: Who owns it Ė you or both of you. Does this agreement have a time limit? Can she demand a sale or rent at any time? Can she drop in at any time? Does she have an expectancy of being in the spare-bedroom if sheís in LA?

What about her company? I think the company is a bit like a scratch-card where the first two patches have been scratched and show jackpots. The third could be anything Ė depending on what her partner really wants, how recovery from the pandemic will go and all that. Itís my view based solely on the scant info offered that if her company was profitable pre-pandemic then it can become profitable by the end of 2021. The variables IMHO are what the owners want, what the marked might be for a travel-company and how it should be valued. Personally I would use the threat (for lack of a better word) of demanding your 25% as a tool for some benefit.

I appreciate not wanting to be acrimonious and resentful, but frankly that is not an issue. A bigger issue is that it is FAIR. If you are not getting approximately half the total value of the marriage assets (half her wages (use tax returns to evaluate wages 2-3 years back), half her IRA, half her companyÖ) then you are buying peace at a high price. Something people that divorce often do.

A friendly and amicable divorce is like when the surgeons at the hospital wear colorful gowns to make you feel better before amputating your leg. It makes things a bit better, but thatís it. Even with your long marriage then you and your ex will at best become cordial when you meet 2-3 years from now. In fact, other than events regarding your son chances are you wonít be meeting. She wonít drop over with the doctor for coffee, you donít want them in your spare-room, you wonít visit with them in France, you wonít spent Christmas togetherÖ Itís not that you are enemies or hate each other, itís more that you two have DIVORCED. You go on your separate lives. You donít want to hear how happy she is and how the doctor makes her feel, not any more than she wants to hear how you are doing.

Edited to add:
Imagine the divorce is finalized early next year 2021. Now imagine your wife has a comparable monthly income as you do, only the travel industry has picked up so her company is generating revenue. She getís your 30% pension, a bit more than you from her IRA (she has 65k more), some wages from her company. At the end of 2021 she and her partner sell the company Ė making 25k each.
Does that sound like fair?
Remember: I have always emphasized fairÖ

[This message edited by Bigger at 4:48 AM, December 9th (Wednesday)]

Dan90254 posted 12/9/2020 07:52 AM

I never was a businessman but I saw her and her partner build this company from scratch to what is was last year a very profitable wholesaler employing 14 people. Not too shabby in this industry. However this company was doing well because my WW was super good at selling expensive to rich clients. Extremely good. No one came even close to her numbers. Without her this outfit has no assets. Nothing to show for. Her partner told me that he is not interested in buying her out. Yes he can change his mind comes next year but he will be then 74 and I donít think he will. I donít think they can just the company name for a good chunk of money. I have nothing to lose by sitting on 25% but If she is willing to give me some cash for it. Iíll take the money.
The IRAs are in her favor to about $130,000 so she will give me half , $65,000, to even them out. No problem there. They are even with same mutual funds.
The house? Thatís the problem. Itís in a trust that we co own. We have to find an agreement in case one wants to sell. She raised the point. I had no answer and still donít. Maybe the lawyer does. Itís probably not that uncommon.
And I like the colored gown before amputation.

Olderandhappier posted 12/11/2020 10:17 AM

So sorry to read your story. This is a terrible betrayal.

If you are set on D as I suspect you will be, not wishing to complicate the discussion further, it sounds as if your wife may now be a tax resident of France given the amount of time she is spending there.

Even though the bulk of your assets are in the US it might make sense to check how French D rules differ from the US in the case of fault. I have no idea but you might find it would be to your financial advantage to file in France and have the case heard there if your WW was resident there. Just a thought. Perhaps worth taking a quick look?

Westway posted 12/11/2020 10:46 AM

We want to get out of this mess with as little acrimony and resentment as possible with a fair $$ solution.

What do you guys think?

Play the game Dan, play the game. Be nice, lie to her and tell her you just want her to be happy, and get as good a deal as you can. Wait for the divorce to be finalyzed and then go nuclear on her boyfriend's ass if you want to. Leave her alone. You don't want her to trash you to your kids.

Les veuves se rťconfortent quand elles se remarient, les veufs se vengent.

[This message edited by Westway at 10:49 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

Dan90254 posted 12/11/2020 13:07 PM

She is not filing any tax document in France. In fact she had her last paycheck in July here. We will be filing together for the year 2020.
I have no plan of returning to France.
I sent a text to the attorney with a question about my pension. No answer yet.
The rest is agreed upon and pretty simple to cut in half.
She is leaving today and will be back in March. We will schedule additional meetings with the attorney. In the meantime I started on the paperwork.

Westway posted 12/11/2020 15:39 PM

Dan what do your kids think?

Dan90254 posted 12/11/2020 16:53 PM

We have one son , 39. He lives next door and doesnít judge his mother. He is not very outgoing and we always had difficulties communicating. He offered to listen and said that I could count on him for anything. I canít tell what he really thinks. I didnít ask him to take sides. But he was aware of the whole thing 1 hour after her call.

Olderandhappier posted 12/12/2020 07:46 AM

She is not filing any tax document in France. In fact she had her last paycheck in July here. We will be filing together for the year 2020.
If doesnít matter if she files or not. If she spends more than 183 days in France in a given tax year she will probably be deemed a tax resident. The rules are a little vague and you would need advice. I am not saying this is a flier. I am simply saying that if you do D you might want to investigate whether filing in France, assuming she is deemed resident there, might be to your financial benefit, Iíll leave it there.

Marz posted 12/12/2020 17:21 PM

Once the D is done cut her off completely. Zero contact is your best friend.

Most often in these cases they want you to do the friends thing. That is all for her not you. Get away and stay away from her.

Good luck.

Bigger posted 12/13/2020 15:10 PM


It might be to your advantage to sign as little as possible before March.
I still think the BIG issue is her company. Worth 0 now, yet big enough a year ago to hire and pay 14 peopleÖ Note my words: By March society will be back closer to normal and people will be traveling again. Wholesale will possibly be ahead in the curve.

If you are up to it leave things as they are for now.

Remember when she started the company? Remember when you two lived on your single wage? That company is marital asset. Itís worth money.

Dan Ė I personally think the ideas of going after OM and all that are plain stoopid. If heís been a practicing physiatrist in France and is approaching mandatory retirement age (70 in most of Europe) heís well off and hasnít broken any professional code. Itís fantasy at best.

Marz posted 12/13/2020 17:57 PM

It might be to your advantage to sign as little as possible before March.
I still think the BIG issue is her company. Worth 0 now, yet big enough a year ago to hire and pay 14 peopleÖ Note my words: By March society will be back closer to normal and people will be traveling again. Wholesale will possibly be ahead in the curve.

Heís correct. Iíve worked in finance 30+years and this doesnít come close to smelling right.

Dan90254 posted 12/13/2020 22:42 PM

Iím not going to do anything against OM. Nothing. I was pissed and thought , and still think, the guy had no ethics no moral being a mental care physician and knowing that he was participating in the breakup of a long lasting marriage. . But I get it, legally Iíve got nothing. Forget it.
The company is only worth whatever they are going to salvage in the spring . No one except her partner is going to buy her shares if she is not staying . She is the driving force, the major asset of this company. There are no other assets but the knowledge, the experience and the enthusiasm of the people answering the phones. And she is by far , by a couple of millions better than the next salesperson. Her partner said last week that he is not interested in buying her out. If I can finalize a deal everything split evenly and 30% of my pension Iíll take it.

Bigger posted 12/14/2020 03:45 AM

You are in the hot-seat so itís your call.
My final two cents though:
I doubt WW and partner will simply stop going to work and let things fold. If for no other reason than the cost of folding down a company. With a proven ability to generate enough revenue to require a staff of 14 then they will always sell Ė even if itís way bellow market-value.

There is value in cutting your losses and detaching. That might make accepting the present deal an acceptable outcome. If you do though then iron out the details regarding the house. I would not want her to be knocking at the door demanding a sale, or moving into the spare bedroom or even having any expectation of free unlimited access. Nor would I want to see you holed up in that house if 6-12 months from now you want to downscale or relocate.

Westway posted 12/14/2020 08:58 AM

Dan I am glad you are not going after the OM. He wasn't the one who made vows before God and man to be your wife for as long as you both would live. Your WW made that vow. She is the one who betrayed you. She is the one who has earned your wrath.

And I guarantee you that even if your WW and OM get together for the long term, it won't be a completely happy union. They have both shown each other that they are willing to cheat others to get what they want. There won't be much trust there.

Once the divorce is finalized, ghost her hard. Block her off all your social media, phone, e-mail... everything. The only contact or knowledge of her should be from what you get through your son.

oldtruck posted 12/14/2020 16:03 PM

being her business can bring in millions again tell her to build
it up so she can cash out big and she can keep it all and she
gives up your pension.

have your lawyer negotiate this.

NaturalX posted 12/24/2020 18:16 PM

I'm guessing you guy's don't have any children?

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