Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

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Kaliber ( Member #74046) posted at 10:52 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

double post

[This message edited by Kaliber at 4:54 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

You don't have a choice of being a victim, but you always have a choice of remaining one!

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Smillie ( Member #51537) posted at 10:54 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

She has to offer to end the affair and recommit to the marriage without coercion. After this you can commit to making personal improvements towards a better marriage.

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Kaliber ( Member #74046) posted at 11:00 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I would advice to expose every thing first, no need to clear the house for that, she will come running in panic, tell her we can't talk (your confrontation) until the kids are away, be cold and none caring, it's very hard but you need to do it, she will try to talk and explain, don't except any thing until the kids are away!

You don't have a choice of being a victim, but you always have a choice of remaining one!

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DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 11:02 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

A question for those saying not to offer R:

How do I ask her to abide by the boundaries if I've not (even implicitly) offered R?

"Wife, I love you, but you have broken my heart and trust and killed this marriage, these are the things I need you to do before I even consider the possibility of R. Do these things and I might consider entering into another new marriage with you."

Remember, no [W]ayward [s]pouse deserves R, they have effectively already ended the marriage you are currently in. R is a gift from a [B]etrayed [S]pouse to a WS.

You have to approach things from the angle of you no longer having a marriage and that if she wants to be with you a new one based on your rules and boundaries needs to be built.

Also remember you can not R alone. If a woman says that she is done with the marriage, she is really done. There is no use in trying the pick-me dance, that will only make you appear weak in her eyes and weak is even less desirable.

She has to be willing to do the work and so do you and this will take years of work for the two of you to reconcile (the last paragraph is second hand knowledge since I immediately went for D in case of a PA since that is something I knew I could not ever forgive).

Now is not a time to be soft or even soft-spoken. Before you confront you need to find the Lion inside of you and be in a position of strength, even if you have to fake it until you make it.

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

posts: 225   ·   registered: Mar. 22nd, 2020   ·   location: South-Africa
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Smillie ( Member #51537) posted at 11:04 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I agree with Kaliber. Expose first then you can deal with the "real" version of her, not the "sneaky cheater" version. Hard to do but probably better. At the very least tell his gf without warning.

These quiet reconciliation pacts are fantastical. People only evaluate their position when they face concequences.

[This message edited by Smillie at 5:39 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

posts: 470   ·   registered: Jan. 27th, 2016   ·   location: Scotland
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DictumVeritas ( Member #74087) posted at 11:13 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I will add my voice to Smilley and Kaliber in support of full exposure, but only just before or after confrontation, not long before.

But be warned, full exposure may drive a WW teetering on the edge to run away. Personally I think this is a good thing, since you can only build a successful marriage with someone who is all in.

Do not inform the OBS way in advance of confrontation. This will get back to your wife's AP and give your WW and her AP time to cover their tracks. If you decide to expose prior to confrontation, you run this risk. For that reason timing would be everything.

Your life is but a flicker to the cosmos and only the brightest flickers are recorded by history for good or bad. Most of us just want to live our lives without being interfered with.

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BindassBP ( Member #75283) posted at 11:16 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

How do I ask her to abide by the boundaries if I've not (even implicitly) offered R?

You do not reconcile with her right now. You only reconcile if you see the effort she is putting in for reconciliation like:

1. giving up her privacy,

2. confessing everything to the other betrayed spouse,

3. cut the toxic friend "C" out of her life,

4. comming clean to your (& her's) family & friends etc.

If she can put with these, then you can give her the gift of reconciliation. Reconciliation needs to be earned just like trust. You cant just give it to someone unworthy. Try to realise, YOU are the prize, not her.

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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 11:18 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

You are getting good advice and have mapped out a good approach.

REMEMBER: No contact with the AP also means they end their business relationship. NC means total NC.

And while she is still pining away for the piece of shit man she just lost, there is no chance at reconciliation. Until she feels the pain of having you, her loved one, being emotionally shot thru the heart, she is in no position to attempt repairing the damage she has inflicted on your relationship.

She needs to see the AP and herself for the pieces of shit they really have been.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:44 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

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squid ( Member #57624) posted at 11:31 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

You've gotten excellent advice thus far and it seems you've prepared for the worst.

Whatever you do, do not waiver in how you see your WW. She will beg, plead, and promise to the moon and try to convince you she isn't who you think she is. "It's not what it looks like!" Gaslighting 101.

As others have said, you're doing great and are way ahead of the curve than most BS's that come here. Stay strong.

BH
D-Day 2.19.17
Divorced 12.10.18

This isn’t what any of us signed up for. But it is the hand that we have been dealt. Thus, we must play it.

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BindassBP ( Member #75283) posted at 11:38 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

By the way, if you are thinking about reconciliation, you are already doing the "Pick-me" dance. Due to this, your WS will loose all the attraction for you. She will think she can get away with anything.

As other poster said you need to be prepared to loose to save it. And its true.

Dont sell yourself so short.

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Jambomo ( Member #74853) posted at 11:51 AM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

The way a WS reacts to being discovered and their subsequent behaviour plays quite a significant part in how you will continue to feel about her and whether you feel she is reconciliation material.

The period after exposure is where you wait and see what she does and what her actions are. Then you’ll know if you can be reconciled or if the relationship is completely finished.

You can ask her to respect boundaries you set, but you must be prepared for the fact she may not respect them and so that’s why offering reconciliation from the start is a bad idea, you still have a whole bit of drama to get through first and that could go many different ways.

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Mrhealed ( Member #46868) posted at 12:04 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

The idea is not to offer R on the first instance, as you dont know everything, and less if wants to R!!!

"Infidelity is not a victimless offense. If she cheats on me, then I am a victim. If she intentionally cheats on me then I am an intended victim." by DoneGone

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Butforthegrace ( Member #63264) posted at 12:05 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I'm sorry that you have to join this club. It's an awful place to be.

I agree 100% with the commenters above on the issue of your statement, in your OP, that you want R.

First, how can you possibly know whether you want R? R is a species of relationship, just like marriage or dating. It means just that -- a relationship, with another person. Right now, at present, that other person is your WW, a woman who will lie to you, sneak around, and fuck another man, while married to you. Morally bankrupt, patently dishonest, and disrespectful to your face. That is the person you are married to, at present. Why on earth, then, would you state, at present, that you want reconciliation?

Second, R only works if your WW is willing to shed her current self, do the work to figure out what is fucked up in her moral compass, fix it, and turn herself into somebody new, somebody whom you can trust, somebody you would choose to marry if you met her and knew her cheating past.

In turn, this only works if both of you let the toxic old marriage go. Simply stated, you cannot reconcile your present marriage. That is the paradox of infidelity. That is why it is so often stated here that, to save your marriage, you have to let it go.

Your statement, pre-confrontation, that you want R, that is a preview pick-me-dance. That is fear of being alone. That is submission to humiliation and defeat, whispering in your ear. It's weak. A cheating wife will not likely respond to a weak man simpering and whimpering. Why would you even want to be married under those circumstances? "Please, baby, please stop fucking other men. I'll be a good husband if you just stop." Dude. Seriously. It won't work. You might remain married, but don't fool yourself into thinking that is any version of R. You're simply white knuckling it and subverting yourself out of fear of the alternative.

There aren't a lot of threads here where R has been successful, but there are some. The one feature that is common in them is that the genesis of R comes from an environment in which the BH is intent on leaving the marriage, tells his WW that he is divorcing, and the WW asks for the gift of R, does the work, reinvents herself.

By the way, C is an enemy of your marriage. She is persona non grata in your life, forever. This means that if there is R, C is persona non grata in your WW's life, forever. Period.

Finally, this:

How do I ask her to abide by the boundaries if I've not (even implicitly) offered R?

That circumstance should never exist. Do. Not. Offer. R. Period.

If she wants R, she will offer up boundaries, transparency, etc. You can then decide whether you wish to accept it.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:52 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 12:06 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

1 - The most successful strategy (based on experience) to get your wife back (if that's what you decide) is for her to believe (really believe) that you will divorce her if she does not comply with your list.

Inform her that even though you are currently inclined towards divorce, you realize you are in shock and will make a final decision in 90 days (extend as necessary).

In the interim, she can prove to you (or not) through her actions (not promises) that she can be a safe partner.

2 - Don't cry or beg her. In her mental state it's viewed as weakness and a free pass to continue the affair.

3 - No spouse can compete with the excitement of an affair partner (and no spouse should have to). For example, you're the reliable old family van vs a flashy sports car.

4 - Do not compare yourself to the OM. Her affair is not about him - but rather he came along at the right time for her to build a romantic fantasy.

5 - Insist that she provide a detailed timeline covering: how it started, what they talked about (you?) during the affair, how she felt coming home after being with him, as well as the what & where.

Writing her affair down is a critical step for her to see/accept her affair as the ugly act of betrayal vs a harmless romantic fantasy.

6 - Have her read:

"How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J. MacDonald

7 - Note she must go NC. Some families have to relocate. Including not seeing him driving down the street. Why? because each time she sees him the affair will reignite in her head.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 6:51 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 1:09 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

Fantastic perspectives. This is all really helping. I understand a bit more now about my place and the position that I have been put in.

I have begun to inform more people in preparation for tomorrow, and am prepping those people to tell others so I have fewer calls to make once this all kicks off.

Wife's home. Got to go and put my happy face on...

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Cooley2here ( Member #62939) posted at 1:23 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I am appalled. This is a grown woman, married and acting worse than my teenagers. During your confrontation you might mention that adults are easy to spot. They behave themselves.

Don’t threaten. Going underground is so easy. Put a plan for yourself into place and she is either in or out.

Btw, has she always been this immature? And how dare she use the children as a smoke Screen.

If you are recording be sure to see if it’s legal.

Tell. Her actions will look stupid once known.

To thine own self be true. Shakespeare

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Thumos ( Member #69668) posted at 1:31 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I note that people have recommended a polygraph. You haven’t responded.

It’s vital to back up the veracity of the written timeline and to force full disclosure. You need full truth so you know exactly who and what you’re trying to reconcile.

Also an STD test must happen for her before any sex occurs with her. It shouldn’t be “up to her” - it should be non negotiable.

you really need a VAR. phone recorders and the like are spotty. VARs are recommended for reason.

As others have said don’t offer reconciliation Up front. Don’t go to an MC with her.

Simultaneous exposure to OBS and to your WW’s family is one of your most powerful tools

I don’t know if it has been mentioned but immediate turning over of her phone to you and running recovery software on that is also vital. Again so you’re know what You’re dealing with and to avoid trickle truth.

Lastly I’ll warn you reconciliation is very difficult in the “best” situations with very remorseful wives. Don’t mistake regret for remorse. You’re in shock right now and traumatized. When that wears off you will be very very angry. And you may very well find — as many if not most men do — that sexual betrayal is an “unrecoverable” grievous wound to the relationship with her. For whatever reason most infidelity books and resources are geared toward betrayed women and many counselors just don’t seem equipped to help betrayed men. So the advice you will see or hear from those places is helpful but also doesn’t address your specific agony.

Perhaps one of the few books that seems to “get it” is Linda McDonald’s.

It is likely your WW simply won’t understand why her sexual betrayal is so devastating to you and she will probably try to minimize the importance of it in ways that will be even more profoundly painful to you. You probably only know the tip of the iceberg sad to say.

That is why many here are urging you to get your ducks in a row for filing for divorce so you can move forward with that quickly if need be.

I tried for four years. I’m getting divorced now. I realized the betrayal was too deep.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:38 AM, September 3rd (Thursday)]

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49
Married: Feb. 1996
DDAY: Dec. 20

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fooled13years ( Member #49028) posted at 1:45 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

freefaller

How do I ask her to abide by the boundaries if I've not (even implicitly) offered R?

I know that much of this might not make sense because you have not experienced betrayal like this before.

Your WW has made all of the choices required in order to deceive you and betray you and your children. She preplanned and worked hard to do all of these things.

She may have already designed a plan how to react if you had ever discovered the betrayal.

Once you confront her you should be prepared for many possible reactions:

She may get mad, blame you for everything including spying on her and say it is over. If this is the case you should consider removing yourself from her presence and plan how best to legally protect yourself and your children.

She may beg for forgiveness and swear it is over and she never wanted to leave you. This is where you might consider letter her know that you are considering D and it is up to her to prove to you that she is worthy of another chance.

There are of course may other scenarios which could happen but they may be based off of either of these scenarios.

The thing you can do to best prepare yourself is to accept the fact that you must be ready to lose the marriage if she is not willing to save it.

I removed myself from infidelity and am happy again.

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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 1:46 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

I don’t see any profit or gain in exposing first and then waiting for her to come home to confront you about the exposure. The only instances I see a gain in not confronting first is if you have already decided infidelity is a complete dealbreaker and have no hope or wish to reconcile. If that’s the case then do some legal checking and then simply let her know you have filed.

But then – I’m not big on revenge or pain, but I am big on result.

When you expose you do so from a position of strength. You are not asking her if she’s cheating or trying to prove to her that she’s cheating. You KNOW she’s cheating. You don’t need to tell her how you know or when she cheated. In fact – you can lie if that’s to your advantage. You don’t have to prove anything.

Exposure is something you need to do and should be done more-or-less simultaneously as the confrontation. You expose without warning your wife about it or giving her a heads-up. The goal of exposure is to create an environment where the affair becomes reality and pressure is applied to WW to do right.

I have a standard boilerplate text I suggest men use when confronting their wife. You can definitely reword it, but this is the gist of it:

“Wife. I know you are having an affair with OM (name him). I have known for some time and have enough proof from enough sources so there isn’t any use in you denying it.

I envisioned us being married for life. I dread the thought of this infidelity ending our marriage. But I have also realized that there is something immensely worse than losing you. In fact, I lost you the moment you decided to have an affair with OM. What is worse than losing you is SHARING you.

I don’t share my wife. It’s that simple.

You are free to be with OM. You are free to date him, have sex with him, openly go out with him… whatever. But not as my wife. It would be an expected sign of respect if you are discreet about it, but that’s totally your call.

While you are committed to your infidelity, I release you of all obligations as my wife, and release myself from all obligations as your husband. I am initiating the process of terminating our marriage, both the emotional and legal process. Regarding the legal process then there are rules and laws that should ensure we both are treated fairly, and I will abide by those laws.

If you want this marriage then you need to tell me so in a clear, unequivocal way. You need to end the affair NOW and accept some unavoidable conditions such as the truth, accountability, and openness. Even if you do then as is all that will do is delay my commitment to getting out of infidelity through divorce. If you want this marriage and can show me so with your actions in the next days, then I might become convinced to reconcile.”

And then you go make a sandwich. Watch reruns of Friends. Whatever. There isn’t really any more to say. She can decide to commit to her OM – either by refusing there is an affair or by refusing to end it – or she can decide to commit to the marriage.

If she does the former you simply enjoy your sandwich and then carry on the inevitable path of separating your lives.

If she says she wants the marriage you ask why. You then remove each and every reason to remain married until you only have ONE: She wants to be married to you because of you.

We need to be married because of the kids: No. It’s better for children to be from a broken home than be IN a broken home.

We are broke and can’t afford D: Yes, we can. We can find ways. If we are sensible and realistic then D isn’t expensive

What will people say: Not an issue. They will gossip for a week and then the next scandal will occupy their lives.

Remove. Each. And. Every. Excuse.

Until she simply says she doesn’t want to lose you.

She’s going to tell you why she had to have the affair. There is a standard answer to EVERYTHING:

You didn’t show me attention: I am sorry you feel that way. It doesn’t explain or justify your decision to have an affair. If we were working at our marriage we might have to deal with that issue, but since you are committed to your infidelity there isn’t really and need to go there.

You go fat: I am sorry you feel that way. It doesn’t explain or justify your decision to have an affair. If we were working at our marriage we might have to deal with that issue, but since you are committed to your infidelity there isn’t really and need to go there.

I was lonely: I am sorry you feel that way. It doesn’t explain or justify your decision to have an affair. If we were working at our marriage we might have to deal with that issue, but since you are committed to your infidelity there isn’t really and need to go there.

See the pattern? No matter what she says don’t enter confrontation. It’s not an issue unless she commits to the marriage.

AND NEVER accept ANY blame for the affair:

You didn’t show me attention – you got fat – you have bad breath…. and that’s why I cheated

Is answered with:

If something I did made you have to have an affair, then there isn’t any use for us to try to reconcile. It only makes me more committed to the inevitability of a divorce. After all – if my actions cause you to cheat then what could happen 2-3 years down the road if I buy regular milk instead of skim-milk like you asked me. Could that mistake cause you to have a new affair?

She wants to talk divorce: I am too emotionally attached to this marriage to talk details now. We will deal with this in the appropriate way at the appropriate time.

If she commits to the marriage the first requirement is that she NEVER again initiate any contact with OM without your knowledge or approval, and that any contact from him is made known to you.

Break it off? A short NC letter. No personal contact.

Regarding exposure:

If you want to reconcile then expose to all stakeholders in the marriage, plus the OM wife.

To the OMW simply state what you know.

To stakeholders (parents, siblings, friends): My wife is having an affair with OM (name him – don’t ever hide anything). I have enough proof to be totally 100% convinced. I would appreciate all guidance and support at these difficult times.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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Smillie ( Member #51537) posted at 2:21 PM on Thursday, September 3rd, 2020

A lot of words there. Just have a feel down below , then determine your course of action. Trust yourself and reconnect with you own nature and don't get too bogged down in the nonsence.

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Topic is Sleeping.
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