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We had a wonderful weekend together as a family. I cleaned (I enjoy cleaning; it’s therapeutic for me) while my husband was at work on Friday and while my son was at school. I also went through the entire house and removed anything that seemed to me to be a reminder of the AP. I did the obvious dumping right after D Day (pictures, gifts, obvious things etc associated with and/or purchased by the AP), but I knew there were a few remnants still in our home that I knew came from him.

ASoCalledLife,

I feel compelled to tell you that I think you made a big mistake when you gathered and threw out the items that had to do with your affair partner. I believe the correct thing to do, the honest thing, would have been to gather those things, talk to your husband about them, and ask him what he wanted to do.

Let me tell you a story about what I did. After I had sex with AP, I continued to wear the jeans and shirt that I wore that day for months afterwards. Finally, my BS asked me what I was wearing the day I had sex with AP. I told him and then threw those pieces of clothing in the trash without talking to my H about it. This was many years ago and he still feels hurt that I would throw them out in the cowardly manner I did without discussing it.

In my opinion, you should either retrieve those items so that you can show them to your BS or make a list now so that you can be open about what you did. Also, you said you did this because you didn't want anything in your home that reminded you of the AP. I can understand that, but I see it as avoiding talking about it. Instead of being open and honest, you're creating more secrets. Don't do that to yourself.

(I enjoy cleaning; it’s therapeutic for me)

It felt therapeutic. I have to put my husband and son first even when they don’t know I’m doing so, and even though this was just a small thing, it felt freeing to do.

Mrs. Life, I absolutely HAVE to concur with what [thatwilldo] said about this.

If it felt therapeutic for YOU to do this, then imagine how therapeutic it might be for a MAN to do this on his OWN prerogative and terms.

Part of the reason he wanted to personally "handle" the situation with your ex-employer Pharisaical MONSTER is to feel his own sense of being the MAN in your life! You MUST let him have some stake in the battle for you, the marriage, the reconciliation process, his own self-respect...it's all intertwined.

I am quite certain that my own wife's adultery had much to do with having CONTROL in areas that I didn't feel were hers to have control of. She was taking the wheel of the car that I WAS behind the driver's seat of. She made decisions that were AGAINST my EXPRESS WILL. She did things that not only she KNEW I wouldn't like, but that we'd both talked specifically about her NOT DOING, and she did them ANYWAY. Part of the trauma of adultery/infidelity is the destruction of trust that was inherently there and in place prior to its obliteration. It's not just about the SEX. It's about intimacy. Trust. Sharing. Working through problems TOGETHER and in ways that BOTH members of the marriage can agree with or accept. How can he do that if you are doing all of it FOR him?

Let him be the man. Let him make the decision of what to do about those items. Getting his hands on a shirt or a book and ripping it or burning might help him feel some resolution enough so that he won't feel QUITE as compelled to rip or burn the actual AP/ex-godfather limb from limb or put a bullet into his pelvis the way I've dreamed about doing to the people my wife shared her body and swapped personal fluids with.

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Ephesians 5:22-33Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

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And you must know that my emphatic way of saying these things to you is ONLY because I want the best for the BOTH...no...for everyone of you, including your son and ya'll's testimony and your entire family's healing as a whole.

The command to wives in the bible is to HONOR/RESPECT (New testament Greek=phobetai--5:33) your husband and in another place to "submit yourself" (Grk.=hypotassomenoi--5:21) to him. Those words and commands are certainly ways to "love" your husband, but they are NOT the same word as the word for husbands to "love" their wives (Grk.=agapato/agape--5:25 & 33.)

I realize that many people don't like seeing that in print or hearing it because we're all so damned "enlightened" nowadays and know so much better than the One Who invented men and women and marriage in the first place, but I maintain that a man wants honor and to be a man. And I think human history somewhat substantiates this "need" or desire that is SO predominantly in a man, quite frankly.

A man is not better than a woman and a husband is NOT better than a wife, not by any reckoning of MINE, I daresay! In fact, for what it's worth, my own personal view is that the woman was the very LAST of the amazing and remarkable creations and designs of God. Most everyone agrees that a woman is a complex and beautiful creature, particularly as contrasted to men (or so it seems to be to me, at least.) A baby or a flower or a carrier and nurturer of human life cannot but be regarded with awe and wonder and respect for the design and complexity and beauty and even seeming delicateness that is inherently a part of those things as contrasted to a (male) "grunt" in the army or a human sack of potatoes. (Call me biased if ya'll want to, but...) But they do have somewhat distinctly separate roles and psyches and wants and needs in certain respects.

And for a bible-thumper Christian, like myself, I think this point is all-too-often missed in today's modern considerations of what was originally spelled out in black and white WRITING in the original language of the day that it was written in.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 3:24 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

I have taken particular interest in your posts because I can relate so much on so many levels...

I personally don't see any issues with destroying memories of that sort. Sure you should share with your husband what you did. .. not that it reminded you of AP (that would imply he has a hold on you.. which he doesn't) but because you want to create new memories with your husband void of any influence of third parties.

I am reminded constantly about what love actually is... and I have found the below helpful...

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

If this is what love is.... then all couples should strive to treat each other this way. No one is perfect in human form. I am certain your husband would give his life for you and your son. Likewise you certainly display much if not all of the above verses but you may have made a horrendous error in judgement by not having your wits about you. Nevertheless if this is Love and God is love, then one can easily surmise that you need God between you two. What was meant for destruction, God can use for Good...

You may wonder why it is that it gouged your heart to see him hurt... and when your husband made the promise to protect you the day your dad passed on.... I put it to you ... that is a true marriage. two became one... thus you both felt each others pain on a uniquely deep level...

You may have felt that you never quite loved or fell in love with your husband or had your heart race for him at first, but I put it to you ... that you always did. You may not have known it, but this is the man who God has put you with, to raise a beautiful child (or more ..who knows) with. To traverse` this and other difficult roads with. I can tell from your previous posts in this thread you learnt the hard way that he actually does make your heart skip a beat.. in fact more than anyone ever has or will.

The important thing is to make it a part of your weekly routine, like something you do for an hour every Sunday morning. Or maybe that you go out somewhere every week for coffee, or a meal, somewhere away from the house if that helps you to focus on opening up. But keep it regular, and consider it the 'Marital Maintenance Hour'! It will do both of you a lot of good, and your marriage will benefit because of that. It is the way to prevent a distance from ever forming between you again, and it really can take as little as an hour a week (maybe less, maybe more). The key to it is to make sure it keeps happening.

Very wise advice M1965. My wife and I did exactly this. I consider it one of the key changes we made that led to a successful R.

Hi ASCL

I only have time for a quick note. Hope that I will have time a little later to give you a bit more. It is just after reading a few of the recent posts I wanted to say something to you.

I can't quote any bible verses, but I can give a BH perspective. Don't go beating yourself up about the cleaning and purging thing. You made no fatal misstep here.

Just keep being honest and loving and doing everything with your absolute focus on making your H and DS and family the centre of all you do.

Dear Mrs. Life,

I want to emphasize that my previous post is NOT meant to discourage you at all. As the recipient of some serious fallout from what I would call a "controlling spirit" in my own wife and mother-in-law, I'm pretty keyed up about not seeing that THING get the better of any more lovely people and families who might fall prey to its coils and fangs.

You must know that I believe you should be brave and strong and fight for your family and for your own place in it, although I have spoken somewhat strongly regarding your choice to "clean house" so to speak. I understand and respect your desire to purify and purge your world of all vestiges of the evils that you and your family have undergone as a result of adultery/infidelity. It is a very right desire and thing to do.

However, in my particular marriage, my wife...this thing about making the decisions for ME that I was supposed to be making...this business of who's grabbing the wheel of the car I'm driving...it very nearly destroyed us both, and it very truly and actually DID destroy my grandfather who I was taking care of when she left me (and him) the first time.

I'm not talking about a man having to be in control of everything. I'm not talking about you rolling over and playing dead or being a doormat or under some oppressive, tyrannical thumb. I'm taking about respect, honor, loving him (and your family) on his terms and in his vernacular instead of merely your own.

I think you are VERY genuinely trying to do just that, but...my own wife (and frankly myself as well) would do things that she thought were loving or considerate towards me...and they really weren't as far as my own preferences and feelings were concerned.

I'll give you a very real example from my childhood. I used to be a runt. I weighed 51 pounds in 7th grade (or maybe it was 6th grade instead). People picked on me. My mom's solution to that and most any other conflict or problem was to pull away, pull out, turn tail, and go taking the path of least resistance or trouble while retreating.

She pulled me out of school after school and out of soccer (because some parents and teammates were rude and disrespectful), out of Boy Scouts (same reason), out of churches that had issues...I'm not saying that she was wrong for HER or even that she didn't have the authority or right to make those decisions for ME as her son. But it didn't teach me how to get along with others and how to be flexible and make conscience-worthy compromises to keep peace and stick with groups of people very well. (Being a an only child with no dad/father figure didn't help much with that issue either, but that was not HER choice for her husband to leave us and never come back, incidentally.)

Fast forward to marriage. My wife had her job. I respected that. I respected her authority within that job. But when she decided to start coming home on city busses after 10:30PM...alone...And when her managers started abusing their authority and telling her to work super late (which we had both discussed beforehand that those hours and greedinesss of environment to take time away from families/husbands shouldn't be negotiable)...I got jealous. I never saw her anymore. That wasn't in her sandbox or jurisdiction. That was in MINE since she was my wife and we had agreements against such crap ever being allowed to happen.

But she took the wheel and decided that SHE knew what was best. So the next thing I know, I'm not only feeling left disrespected and disregarded concerning her work and our agreements there, but now she's out screwing the cook in the back of his truck while he's giving her a ride home. And then she just left me ALTOGETHER. To go live with her wretched, Jezebelian mother who had done the same abandoning thing to my her own daughter (my wife) and her own husband and son ten years or so prior to that.

The frustrating thing for me besides the obvious, was that her reason for treason was that I was too "controlling"! Really? Because I wanted her to actually keep our agreements? Because I didn't want her getting raped or robbed in the middle of the night?

I didn't tell her how to do her job. But she certainly resented and resisted me doing MINE. I was trying to protect her (and ME, too, btw, since she was bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh). But she "knew better" than I did about what was best for me AND her. My feelings didn't matter. HERS did. And apparently, the married COOK'S feelings mattered a great deal to her as well...

Take care of your son. He has certain weaknesses and needs you to look out for him and his interests. But let your husband do that for you and himself as well. I think the parallel there fits to some extent.

It's not so important whether you trashed or burnt all the stuff related to the traitor-trash you committed adultery with in the long run, probably. But if I'm seeing this thing right from my own standpoint and little "telecommuting" spectator skybox seat via laptop and SI forum, then I'm worried about this thing being in you that was in my wife as well, albeit certainly not nearly so all consuming and adversarial in nature.

And if I'm dead wrong about any or all of that where you're concerned, then at least know that I'm only crying "offsides" there because I care about y'all and the outcome of the " game", because I want the home team to win it and win it BIG.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 7:17 AM, January 23rd (Tuesday)]

Greetings, everyone! Apologies for my absence. My brother just returned from being away for several weeks for a work project and I’ve been catching him up on everything and enjoying time with him.

ThatWillDo and Cephastion, I understand where you both are coming from in terms of promoting transparency in the marriage and not robbing my husband of his agency. I know your remarks came from a place of concern and I appreciate that...unilateral decision making was at least part of what got me into this mess (me deciding that my former friend was a better confidante for me to vent my work problems to than my husband). And ohfor, thank you for sharing your perspective that it wasn’t a fatal mistake...I do realize that it is vital for my husband to know he has my respect and to have the opportunity to lead. I also want to do my part in feeling like I’m “standing up” for what is right and not allowing myself to become paralyzed by fear. It’s a difficult balance.

A while back I shared some thoughts about my (not so new anymore) IC. I had changed from one IC to another a few months ago. The reason I changed, although I didn’t initially share here, I think is relevant to this conversation, so I’m going to get into it a bit in this post.

I liked the first IC. She was thoughtful, kind, and professional. But I found myself developing a nagging resentment of her - for two main reasons. One, she continually asked questions about my upbringing and my childhood. I was bothered by that because I am very protective of my family. My parents loved my brother and I deeply and were good parents to us. I felt that by digging so deeply into my childhood she was trying to imply that something about the way I was raised was deficient and was the cause of my A. In my (defensive at the time) mind, she was insinuating that some seed my parents planted is the reason I did this - and to me, that was insulting to my parents.

The other - and probably main - reason that I stopped going to her was related to the incident with my boss. She spent a lot of time with me on that incident and the period after, and that made me uncomfortable. She kept trying to get me to consider saying words like “assault” and “attempted rape” instead of saying, “He made a pass at me,” or “He came on to me.” She insisted that by choosing to use the words I was using I was minimizing the situation rather than facing it for what it was.

Not long after that, I asked my son’s IC to recommend a therapist to me, and I began seeing a new IC. I asked for a therapist who specialized in extramarital affairs, and that’s what I got. I was happy at first. She was exactly what I thought I needed - tough. Every session, in the beginning, drew tears and feelings of deep hurt and pain as she walked me through the devastation that my actions had caused. “Finally,” I thought, “I’m digging deep.”

And then, to my surprise, she started to circle back to some of the exact same things the first IC had been focusing on. My childhood. The incident with my boss. Even the way I think as an Aspie, and my relationships with men (my father, my brother, my husband and son, the AP, etc). I had run away from one IC to another only to be right back where I started. It was eye opening, and it caused me to look inward and to really, really think.

I felt that questioning the way I was raised was disrespectful to my parents. But now I realize it is not. I was blessed with loving, supportive parents who had a strong moral compass. But everything wasn’t rainbows and butterflies, and it isn’t a crime to point that out. Because of difficulties we had experienced, my parents kept our world intentionally small. As such, I was accustomed to dealing with a very limited amount of people - the AP being one of them. I recognize now that I was also overly trusting and somewhat naive about a lot of things.

There are a lot of people who homeschool their kids and still find a way to ensure that their children are equipped with people skills, awareness, and critical survival skills. I see that especially in this new generation of homeschooled kids/young adults. They have the best of both worlds in that they have a close family bond and a personalized home education, but they also have a decent amount of common sense and “street smarts” to navigate the world. I didn’t have that - and I can now acknowledge that without feeling like in doing so I am dishonoring my parents. They did the best they knew how - but they weren’t perfect. I wish I had been raised to be a little tougher, a little more jaded, a little less trusting. And more self-reliant instead of dependent. Now I’m having to learn that now, as an adult. (But better late than never.)

With regard to the incident with my boss, it has taken me over a year to say the words that I said this week in IC and that I am about to type now, with trembling fingers. He tried to rape me. Oh God, how I can feel my heart rate increase. This is so scary...but I have to do this, for me. My boss didn’t just make a pass at me. He tried to rape me, and that isn’t okay. I didn’t deserve for that to happen to me. It was not my fault.

It has been so hard for me to mentally “unpack” this situation. You see, I felt that by my former IC focusing on this she was giving me an “out” for the A. I felt that connecting the trauma from that event to my subsequent A was wrong and that I did not deserve to be exonerated...I needed to be punished. I failed to understand that no one was trying to create any excuses for me but instead trying to understand how everything unfolded. You cannot prevent something from happening again if you don’t get to the source. Understanding how everything transpired was not the same thing as failing to hold me accountable for my actions afterward - namely not allowing my husband to handle things in the way he felt best and choosing to “rugsweep” my pain and confide more closely in the AP instead of drawing nearer to my husband.

I just didn’t want to be a victim. I felt like all my life people felt sorry for me, and I have always despised having people look down on me. I always felt like I could imagine how people saw me. And I didn’t like my reflection in their eyes...

The poor, poor mixed up Aspie girl whose parents didn’t match who couldn’t hack it in a regular school and had to be homeschooled. The poor, poor twins who got fondled by a home care worker and everyone knew because it ended up in the newspaper. The poor, poor dumb girl who got knocked up young and had to get married instead of finishing her ivy league education. The poor, poor special needs mom of a baby that couldn’t walk. The poor, poor sexual assault victim...

I just didn’t want to be a statistic. I didn’t want anyone feeling sorry for me. I wanted to define my circumstances and not have them define me. I wanted to be an overcomer.

But there is no shame in dealing with a craptastic situation and dealing with it. That’s not being a victim. That’s being a human...

This has become longer than I expected. I’m sorry; let me try to get back on track.

I’m trying to be more mindful and more intentional. I’m trying to demonstrate strength and be proactive and not just allow things to happen to me.

There’s a part of me that looks back on my sex life with my husband for the last several years. Thinks about when he said that we were “too old” to be as exploratory and fun and free with one another’s bodies as we used to. Thinks about how I didn’t agree really, but went along with it because it’s what he suggested and because I wanted to please the man I love.

I think he was just doing what he thought was the responsible thing adults do once they’re married and settled and have kids. I don’t think he disliked our more adventurous sex life...in fact, I know he loved that stuff as much as I did back when we used to do them (and if recent events are any indication, he still likes them very much). I missed him finishing in my mouth; I missed making love pressed against the wall...having him spank me or yank my hair...being on top of him...using toys and edible underwear and oils for fun...dressing up in heels and sexy lingerie for him. I have missed all of that. I think we were both playing a role (the role of “respectable, Christian parents”), and we mistakenly thought that role required us to have boring, vanilla sex until the day we died. But it doesn’t. Song of Solomon is full of passion. Shouldn’t sex with one’s soulmate be the same? Why should two loving, consenting, married adults deprive one another of pleasure that they both enjoy for no reason other than the fact that they now have offspring?

I guess in a roundabout way I felt that now I need to always walk in brutal honesty. Always. And that anything less than that is allowing the little foxes to enter our vineyard and possible wreck it all.

Knowing those remnants of items that came from the AP felt like little foxes to me. And I wanted to get rid of them. Not because he asked me to (my husband), but because he didn’t. I wanted to stand up for him like he has always tried to do for me...

But I know I need to learn how, and when. When to stand and when to ask him when it’s best to stand. Not to assume.

So much to learn...

[This message edited by ASoCalledLife at 7:27 AM, January 24th (Wednesday)]

Honesty, yes, but that brutal aspect... Honesty is brutal enough on its own a lot of times. There's a verse that says we are to "speak the truth in love."

I think it's a lot like voltage. Too much all at once can burn out the motor or wiring if it's not equipped or rated for that kind of surge all at once.

I have friends who are " brutally honest" and have been that way MYSELF a lot in life. I think there's a LOT to be said for how God interacted with Moses and Israel in the Book of Exodus. They worked out a deal where there was a LOVING buffer between the " brutal honesty" of God and the weaker hearted children of Israel with Moses being the go-between.

As Jack Nicholson once said in Men of Honor, some people can't handle the truth. Of course, his character was trying to hide it from those he owed it to in the context of their movie moment there, so maybe that's a bad example.

I don't mean that lying or hiding things/helping them from someone is good at all if that someone wants or needs to know something, but there's something about the space between ALL and NOTHING that is right and good.... There's something about two becoming ONE...

A friend of mine (the brutally honest one I was referring to earlier) once saw a mystery revealed that I can't get enough of myself. He said that God took woman OUT of man, made them male and female (separate AND different) and THEN told them to be husband and wife and to be made ONE flesh!

Another example is Christ and His bride the church (which He says marriage is supposed to be a picture/blueprint/example of, btw). He comes to "make her" (out of Himself in a way), goes away to build a place for her, and later is returning to be joined and made ONE with her in the future. In the interim, she is supposed to " seek" Him and be transformed internally on the doing of such.

Finally, it seems that heaven and earth were one, and then separated by some expanse of space and/or waters...And then eventually rejoined into oneness in the end.

Otherwise, why wouldn't/doesn't God just reveal Himself fully at once for everyone to see? There are examples of how He revealed Himself little by little to various people He got particularly close to but had to watch out that they didn't get blown out of the water on the process. In fact, I think the end judgement that comes is just THAT..." revelation" all at once at some point. And it's not that easy on everyone when it finally happens.

(Of course, you're not God, and your husband isn't either, but...)

I'm not here to argue religion or eschatology issues in saying these things, but to make a case for the process of seeking and revealing, of work, of courtship, of the art of love and growth and relationship-building. He could have made man with all knowledge or maturity, but He didn't. He could have made His own bride an instant made-to-order person or thing with INSTANT perfection, IMO.

There is a proverb which states that it is the glory of God to hide/conceal a thing and the glory of kings is to search a matter out (discover new things).

I'm not advocating holding out on anything there, but simply saying that there's a value in HEALTHY mystery and different-ness. There's a value in playing " catch me if you can" as long as everyone understands that the chase is supposed to be fun and healthy instead of frustrating or controlling or power-play minded.

Give him what he seeks, but it's okay for him to be the one doing some of the "milking". If he wants the whole nine yards all at once without holding anything back, then okay. He is likely better judge of what he can handle than you are, I'm guessing. But don't drown him or overload the breakers just out of sheer honesty's sake on your own initiative.

I couldn't handle all the truth back on my two D-days which is partly why I'm on here NOW twenty years later, but my rugsweeping was no solution either. I'd recommend aiming for the middle there on both of your parts, but whatever he wants is likely best for him, since he's not me.

On a happier sounding note, however, this is the song that I wanted to encourage you with when I first read your update to us:

Mandisa: Overcomer

https://youtu.be/b8VoUYtx0kw

I'm VERY encouraged to hear y'all going upward and onward in love.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 11:50 AM, January 25th (Thursday)]

Oh, btw, I don't know if your husband reads anything on SI, but if YOU OR he would like to see some of the processing of a BH (myself) that's done both rugsweeping AND facing/processing things with a twenty year reconciliation that's late blooming on getting healed, I welcome either or both of you to look at my little journaling minded, radio/video "channel" on a thread I call "WKRP in SI-ncinatti".

It's kinda "brutally honest" as well, even if I do let the artists do most of the wailing/venting on there for me.

Here's the link if you're interested:

(Cephastion's)W.K.R.P. in SI-ncinatti "Radio/Video Station"

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=614807&HL=51990

Caution: when I say "brutal"... some of the posts/video-links on there...well...you'll see what I mean if you look into it some. I do play DJ and explain the good, the bad, and the ugly of each thing there as I relate to it at least. Adultery IS some crazy-making stuff, after all. I pretty seriously think it takes some emotional and mental: to get the trash and toxins fully out...

[This message edited by Cephastion at 12:19 PM, January 25th (Thursday)]

ASoCalledLife,

I wrote this in a previous post.

I feel compelled to tell you that I think you made a big mistake when you gathered and threw out the items that had to do with your affair partner. I believe the correct thing to do, the honest thing, would have been to gather those things, talk to your husband about them, and ask him what he wanted to do.

I stand by what I said above. I believe you've only been at this for a few months. My affair was over 40 years ago and my H and I have spent the last 10+ years dealing with the repercussions because we rug-swept for decades.

ASoCalledLife,

I wrote this in a previous post.

I feel compelled to tell you that I think you made a big mistake when you gathered and threw out the items that had to do with your affair partner. I believe the correct thing to do, the honest thing, would have been to gather those things, talk to your husband about them, and ask him what he wanted to do.

I stand by what I said above. I believe you've only been at this for a few months. My affair was over 40 years ago and my H and I have spent the last 10+ years dealing with the repercussions because we rug-swept for decades.

What I've come to realize is that there are no good reasons for keeping secrets. You're stealing choices from him if you're doing things behind his back. Would you like that for yourself?

Also, you'll find other things that he "doesn't need to know". I did. I kept questionable and wrong interactions (poor boundaries) from my husband telling myself it was nothing...it wasn't important...it would just make him mad...even it would just hurt him.

What I've decided is, nothing is unimportant. Now, when I think of something that bothers me, I talk to my H about it. Sometimes it leads to an argument, but it also helps to build trust.

Have you thought about what you would say to your H if he asks what ever happened to a book you threw out, or a dress you used to wear? How would you feel? Does it make your stomach churn to think about this?

You've come such a long ways in a short time. I admire you for your thoughtfulness. Do this for yourself.

You've developed a habit of secrecy and lying. All of us WWs do. You need to build new pathways of honesty and openness in your brain. The way to do that is by doing it. It requires courage...something we all need.

thatwilldo, you told Mrs. life that:

You've developed a habit of secrecy and lying. All of us WWs do. You need to build new pathways of honesty and openness in your brain. The way to do that is by doing it. It requires courage...something we all need.

but as much as I agree with your course of action and what you've recommended regarding how Mrs. Life should proceed in the course of her reconciliation and marriage, I really disagree with what you see as to her motives and overall nature.

I think that she didn't SEE what she was doing and what others around her were doing. I think she didn't know that she was running into a trap of her (and her AP's) own making. It seems that HE very well knew what he was doing and meaning to do, but SHE was clueless about the clues and red flags and even the deceitfulness of her OWN heart.

That is a very different thing than knowingly and intentionally harboring secrets and furthering lies. There are lies which reside in ALL of us that we don't even realize are lies or are there. Lies that mimic truth. Or "love". Or honesty.

Lack of discernment, or lack of trusting/honoring her husband is one thing, but actively and intentionally doing evil in a premeditated and conscious way...that's another matter altogether.

Cleaning out the closets of one's soul and FOO and mind and world and those of one's spouse along with them...YES! VERY healthy and right and good to do. But I think she's "guilty" of thinking and doing too LITTLE rather than actively thinking and doing too MUCH in this case.

Aspie's aren't so good at lying or hiding things or faking it form what I'm given to understand. That's part of what makes them so darned loveable, but it's also part of what makes them so vulnerable as well, since that honesty and transparency gets mistaken as signals of "intimacy" or wanting more than they already have from someone they are in a friendship with (if I'm correct about Asperger's symptoms there, that is).

Mrs. Life, I am inclined here to post the link to an earlier thread of yours which makes this point I'm asserting somewhat more clear, but I'm not sure if you'd like that or not. It's a former SI thread of yours but it's been awhile since it was really active, and you're at a MUCH different place at this point in your walk...

I have a daughter with Asperger's.

I think I am beginning to understand what you’re both trying to say. I hadn’t thought about it that way.

It’s just so confusing, though. I want to do things to demonstrate to myself, and to the world, the importance of my marriage without it looking like I’m trying to “show” what I’m doing. I want it to be, feel, and look authentic. Like when I bake a cake. I don’t make a big point of saying, “Honey, I made you this cake from scratch, not from a mix.” I just make the cake and let the taste speak for itself. I don’t want to seem like I’m doing things with the intention of winning his approval; I want him to know I’m doing it because he matters and because it matters. Because it’s what a wife should do for her husband...is there a way to do this and still have openness?

I am going to text him and let him know what I did this weekend (the purging) because I don’t want him to think I am trying to keep secrets. But I guess I’m kind of perplexed because I didn’t really view this as keeping something from him. But maybe in case he views it that way I should err on the side of caution? I hope it doesn’t end up being a problem. I just didn’t want any remnants of that man in our home at all. But it wouldn’t have killed me to wait until he got home that day to do my purging, I guess. (Not I guess; I know.) Hindsight and all that...

On a brighter note, tomorrow my husband and I have a date night! My son is going to spend the night here with my brother. So excited...

Should I prepare an explanation as to why I threw the stuff away without notifying him and an apology, or should I just tell him straight out? I’m thinking I will probably just tell him straight out (in a text) and take it from there.

I wasn't suggesting that you were trying to hide anything from him, for my part. I only tried to make the point somewhat earlier here in the thread that I think maybe you and my own wife have some of the same issues with trying to take the wheel and control things that the man in your life might want to be a part of or to make the call on instead. Particularly where anything relating to the AP and adultery is concerned.

Some of this might be some "projecting" on my part, but when I read about how you and your husband "handled" the attempted RAPE thing at your work...let's just say that it reminded me a lot of my own wife and how she was wired before we really and TRULY worked through some of those issues about who was supposed to be in control of what.

I don't think that what you did is so much of a thing in and of itself, but that "wayward thinking" which I don't typically accuse you of having was a VERY serious issue with her and me and I am convinced at present that it is a very serious issue between you and your husband there as well.

The really deceptive thing about it is that she would THINK that she was respecting me in this or that. There is a verse in which God tells His people (in Psalms) that He desires obedience rather than sacrifice. The people were wearing themselves out to demonstrate that they were still His people in their hearts and still committed...but they weren't actually doing what He had commanded them to do. So the gifts and sacrifices were kind of a moot point until they obeyed. Only AFTER those actions on HIS terms were done would the voluntary offerings really count for much.

I think that you and your husband need to have a marriage "business meeting" (not necessarily during your date, but...) to discuss job descriptions/jurisdictions in certain areas of responsibility. Simply put, I think you need to learn one another better and what each of you would like to see the other person take the wheel on.

Maybe you both think you've got that base covered pretty well already with home life and things the way they were running outside the bedroom before the adultery, but with new factors like this purging issue coming up and with trigger management and empathy issues and healing from it all will almost certainly will be a new ground to have to deal with and address together.

By the way, what's the story with your work situation? Are ya'll gonna start courtship again with weekly or twice a week dates? How is your son dealing with everything at this point? Is there any stuff you need to do to cover his tracks/honor with respect to his family?

I wanted to mention also that there is a verse where God says that the iniquities of of the parents are visited upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generations but mercy is shown to those who fear Him unto the thousandth generation. I think that this verse means that children inherit "tendencies" that they have to fight against to some extent, but that you can successfully conquer the "out-of-alignment" issue by trusting God and leaning/steering yourself and your family the other way. Alcoholism. Abuse. Drugs. Lust/Immorality. Adultery. Anger. Rebellion against authority. Stuff like that gets into the heart of a child and a grandchild if it's sown by the parents to some extent, IMO. I think that if you plant and garden well, then you can fight off those weeds and bugs and viruses so to speak, but they are there to be reckoned with lying dormant within people sometimes until the right conditions or ingredients come along to germinate those bad seeds.

I bring this up to mention that facing certain things in your past isn't a bad thing. It's good gardening/husbandry. So if your IC wants to go there with you, even if the shoe doesn't seem to fit YOU, it's still good to know about, because it MIGHT very well affect your children or even grandchildren as well. And it's a lot easier to fight against an enemy that you can see coming than it is to get blindsided from behind by an unexpected foe that you were never aware you (or they) needed to keep an eye out for.

I just realized that I didn't really answer your question requesting opinions about how to mention the purge to your husband.

I think that I would save an apology for when you know for certain how he feels about the matter. I would recommend actually asking him how he feels...what he thinks you should have done and how it should have been handled between the two of you or if what you did was the best way to address such.

It is entirely possible that I am wrong about his thoughts and feelings on that matter. But I know how I felt when my own wife came back and we faced that stuff together. I got to exercise some of my wrath and work out some of my jealousy out via burning a great deal of her adultery-related stuff right there in the back yard with her very earnestly in attendance and assistance with the cleansing/purge. She was very glad to do it, too, and seeing her do that so willingly and thoroughly right alongside me and just as fervently...it was seriously helpful for me and her BOTH.

I can still remember that day...twenty two and a half years ago I think it was...but it was a good day...a good memory for me. The burning of all that stuff and her enthusiasm in doing it...it really meant a lot to me.

Anyway, asking him about it is a very real way of honoring him even if it is after the fact. If you find that he feels like you should have done things somewhat differently, then I think THAT'S the time to really apologize and see what he'd like to do about any further stuff like that if and when it comes up. Just him KNOWING that you care about his feelings and that you're really trying to do right is HUGE even if you do things differently than he'd like now and then regarding this stuff. It's the heart...the overall attitude...the marathon...even if you DO make an honest misstep or mistake in judgement, he loves you and likely sees that you're intentions are to love him in all of this.

ThatWillDo:

Btw, I didn't realize that you had an Aspie daughter, ThatWillDo. My favorite radio DJ EVER is an Aspie himself. I think his radio show is called "Mornings With Brant" (Brant Hanson--Christian Music Radio) Are there any good links on that topic from your experience? I'd like to learn more about it actually.

I guess since I didn't hear any objection from Mrs. Life about posting her old thread link from here on SI, I'll share it here and let you read it afresh and see what you think about my take on her honesty vs. lying thing. I'm certainly no expert on Asperger's Syndrome, but I do have a certain knack for empathy and gut instinct now and then, however. Here's that link:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=612419&AP=141&HL=

[This message edited by Cephastion at 9:33 PM, January 25th (Thursday)]

What a journey of self discovery... If only we could all face the issues that make us who we are ...in the very depth of our hearts...

With that being said, I don't have any profound advice (maybe a little :)) but just a simple summary of how i see it...

1. Immediate and long term - continue in the path you mention in recent posts. your words seem so sincere and how could you not live a more purposeful life and tons of self respect to boost.

2. Currently, you will need to convince your DH that you want to be with him him, not because he is the comfortable convenient choice.. but that you prefer him over anyone else sexually, that you want him over anyone else, he is the king of his castle and the man that your heart yearns for.

You can focus on no.1 together. but don't also lose focus on no.2

If I equate life to sport...

If you practice- you build confidence to play those difficult plays ... you get better at them, and the more you practice, these moves become instinctive ... and thus your husband would see your behaviour as reactive, unrehearsed, natural. If anything you practice who you really are. Your husband surely sees it, hence you get a second chance at his love.

Cephastion is so right when he talks about building a legacy for your child. A verse in the Bible implies that kids do what they see the parents doing... teach your son that it is normal to live in a home where you are accountable, honest, and loving. I sincerely wish you all the best on your date night.

I CERTAINLY am looking forward to hear how ya'll's date went! How ya doing out there, Mrs. (and Mr.) Life?

Hi everyone!

I am relieved to share that my husband wasn’t upset about the items from the AP that I threw away. I was honest and explained to him that I had been advised here not to keep secrets, even unintentional secrets, from him.

I also mentioned that some couples have found it therapeutic to dispose of such items by burning them - kind of a symbolic cleansing. I asked him if he thought it would have been helpful him if we had a bonfire with the AP’s things. He responded, “Yes - if the AP was at the top of the fire.” Then he laughed a bit. (He has NEVER laughed about anything related to the A before.)

Our Friday night date ended up turning into another weekend; he asked me to stay. The first night my son was with my brother, so we - my husband and I - were at our home together alone for the first time since the day I had to move out over a month ago.

We were actually supposed to go bowling (we flipped a coin to pick between two activities and bowling won). But my husband was really tired from work. I think he would have still pushed himself to go if I insisted, but I told him - truthfully - that being with him was enjoyable enough; I would be happy doing anything at all. So we stayed in. I made us dinner while he hung out in the kitchen with me keeping me company and putting together a Lego set he had purchased as a surprise for our son (our son doesn’t have the fine motor control to put such things together, but LOVES to see them).

We ate dinner in the living room while watching DVDs. He put in my favorite movies, A Walk to Remember and Ever After (I’ve probably seen both over a hundred times each). We finished the first one, but halfway through the second one he picked me up and carried me to the bedroom. We spent a beautiful, passionate night in one another’s arms and got very little sleep!

The next morning my brother brought our son home early (he has weekly Saturday morning therapy at the pediatric rehabilitation center where he gets his care). While I was getting ready to head out with our son, my husband suggested to my brother that they go shoot hoops! My brother changed it to coffee (lol - he’s like me, more nerd than athlete), and off they went! They were still gone when we returned. :)

Things are going so well that I’m a little bit scared. I don’t really know what is different now. I know I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning that derailed our progress, and I know depression and frustration overwhelmed him afterward and that also kept things at a standstill. But I don’t really know what “clicked” to have us go from the brink of divorce to getting along so well. All I can do is thank God. I can’t think that it’s anything in particular that I have done above and beyond what any other wayward who wakes up has done. But he tells me that he appreciates my honesty and the fact that I am facing my mistakes. And he tells me he has never stopped loving me and he wants our family to make it.

I wonder if I do indeed have somewhat of a controlling nature where I feel like I’m trying to be helpful yet I am making things worse unintentionally. (It’s strange, because at the same time I am very much a people pleaser too.) What made me think of this is that when I was still working, even though I was technically in a supervisory capacity, I still met personally with clients sometimes rather than just delegating my staff to do all of the outreach, intake, and case management. That made extra work for me, but I felt it kept me grounded in that I was still personally involved in the heart of our work, not just executive duties.

But a few times when we were short-staffed I also still tried to list myself on the overnight “on call” schedule I created for my staff (when you work with trafficking victims, sometimes emergencies happen in the middle of the night). I did so (added myself) on two occasions and informed him after the fact. And my husband didn’t like that. He said that equity only goes so far, and in trying to reduce my employees’ load I was failing to prioritize my safety. He actually got really mad about this to the point that the second, and last, time I did it he raised his voice at me (I then removed myself from the list).

I have slowed down the job searching because my husband has mentioned wanting to support me in going back to school. I don’t know if this is something logistically that makes sense. I had a career that I was good at and that I loved. But truth be told I “lucked up” into that role. I was an unpaid volunteer in that ministry for a long time and got pulled in as part-time staff when they had an unexpected staff shortage. And then I just happened to excel and kept “moving up the chain.”

I know it was God’s doing because even my interns had graduate degrees - yet here I was... a woman of color with Asperger’s with nothing but my (homeschool) high school diploma...serving in a leadership capacity over dozens of people in a thriving ministry humanitarian program. I worked hard, but I wasn’t initially qualified to get my “foot in the door”; it just worked out favorably for me. Unfortunately, that lack of education is a “thorn in my side” now. It’s a huge disadvantage for me.

I am praying over what to do. I love learning and there’s a part of me that would be thrilled to go back to school. But I don’t even know what I would want to “be.” For so long my path was set. I had a fulfilling career in the ministry and I was content in that capacity. Now I don’t know who or what I want to be.

There’s a part of me that feels uncertain of my contribution as a mom and wife because I don’t have a job for the first time ever and my son goes to school during the day (even though my son does have several private PT, OT, and ST sessions outside of school during the week that I transport him to). My father worked full-time from home AND homeschooled two kids, so I wonder if I am inadequate. But being in school my son benefits from so much. He gets additional special education services provided free of charge during the school day by the school, and he has support outside of the family. And he has friends (not a lot, but more than I had growing up). Even though there is a part of me that wishes I could homeschool him so I could feel like I am giving my all as his mother, he has thrived being in school.

Speaking of my son...he has fared so well through this horrible ordeal over the past year. All the changes and ups and downs. He has a great IC and has somehow managed to escape this infidelity nightmare mostly unscathed. Not completely...he’s the one who has to be shuffled from house to house while his father and I are living apart; he’s the one that had to lose his grandfather and his godfather in the span of time of less than a year; he doesn’t sleep soundly any longer ever since his father’s hospitalization. He has also had some recurring struggles with enuresis lately that could be part of his disability...but could also be stress related given everything that’s going on. It’s hard to tell right now.

My brother has said that I can stay with him indefinitely, so I am not in a vulnerable position without a job. Where he lives is not exactly convenient in that it’s pretty far from our son’s school and not that close to our home. But it’s a clean, safe, free place for me to be with someone who cares for me and who is a true friend of the marriage, so I am grateful. My brother’s area is not the most diverse neighborhood though, nor is it very child-friendly.

It’s a big change for me. It’s very important to my husband that our son know his roots; where we live there are more South Asian families in the general area than there are in the area where my brother lives. But that’s a blessing and a curse. Because by now people in the community have to have noticed or at least suspected that we (my husband and I) are living apart. And people talk.

I am concerned because my husband is now working (in business) with a member of his family and yet he still seems to be intent on keeping his family as a whole at a distance. That is very unlike him. Most of our marriage his family has been around (once they eventually came around...he was estranged from them in the early years). They’re a big, close-knit extended family. I fear that he has kept them at arm’s length all these months in order to keep them from knowing what we are going through. Because if they knew what happened they would have told him to divorce me, I’m sure of it. And I couldn’t even blame them...I understand. But it’s like in order to keep our business private he has shut them out. He used to see his parents on a weekly basis and his siblings and other relatives frequently too.

Since the A he has skipped a lot of their family functions and tries to engage with them mostly by text or telephone. He does know they want to spend time with their grandchild, so he brings my son to visit them and I’m sure they have interrogated my son about what’s going on at home...they’re not stupid. When I try to bring up the family issue my husband just tells me to pray, to trust him to handle it, and that we need to focus on ourselves right now. I’m not saying he’s wrong, but I fear we might be “kicking the can down the road” right now and might be unequipped when we will have to deal with it later.

My IC lately has been trying to get me to consider a lawsuit against my former employer. But the idea of thar freaks me out. First, he’s much wealthier and much more connected and influential than I. There’s absolutely no comparison. He would destroy me. But then there’s my husband’s pride and his psyche. I can’t imagine him being comfortable with a painful, invasive, emotionally charged lawsuit. And I think an out-of-court financial settlement from my former employer would humiliate and emasculate my husband. He has said on more than one occasion that no amount of “blood money” would excuse what happened. And even though my husband is very Americanized and is a law-abiding citizen, he has openly lamented more than once that this didn’t happen in India; my husband says if we were there, he and his family would have easily “handled” my former employer years ago without the need for police...I’m pretty sure my husband hates that man more than he hates the AP, which is saying a LOT.

We’re going to have a standing date night every Friday and a family dinner together with our son every Tuesday night. We continue to check in daily by text and I still see my husband each morning when I bring him his breakfast and lunch on my way to coming to pick up my son and take him to school. I typically don’t see my husband in the evenings; I do prepare and drop off dinner for him and my son each day but sometimes he is still at work and I end up leaving my son for me my husband to pick up at the after-school program my son attends.

I’m working on trying to take better care of myself. I still don’t have much of an appetite. But I have bought some packs of Ensure and if I miss meals I make sure to drink some of those and nibble on a protein bar just to stop myself from losing any more weight.

I hated to leave them tonight. But I kept my composure. And now, although it is late, I am having difficulty sleeping. I wish I was with him, with them. I keep picturing his arms around me; his smile; feeling his kisses. Wishing he was touching me. For a long time we were intimate once or twice a week, kind of like maintenance sex I guess. Now we are together multiple times (various sex acts) in one night...I can’t believe we lost so much time when it could have always been like this. I don’t know what internal passion “switch” flipped inside of us but whatever it is, it’s blazing brightly. I want him so badly...all the time. Like right now even. I feel like a silly teenage girl, tempted to text him and tell him that I’m literally tossing and turning in my bed missing him. But I don’t want him to think it’s all about the sex. I don’t want him to feel like I’m just in physical withdrawal from him when I have to leave. I do very much enjoy our renewed sense of lovemaking and that I no longer feel shackled or stifled in bed with my husband. But it’s so much more than just sex. I just want to be near him. I just want to stare at him while he sleeps and watch his chest rise and fall as he breathes and I want to gently twirl my fingers in his straight, dark hair and tuck my feet underneath him to feel his body warmth...I just wish I could have what I so stupidly took for granted. The simple pleasures of being next to my husband, the father of my child, in my own home.

But I will count my blessings. I had a lovely weekend with my two favorite men and I got to come home to tell my other favorite man (my brother) all about it...

I should be grateful, not acting mopey. (This might be a good time to hum Mandisa and Toby Mac’s “Good Morning” song, along with “Overcomer.”)

Thank you to all of you who have given me suggestions, encouragement, tough love, pointers, and prayers, and who have helped my family. I am (cautiously) hopeful.

Can I ask a question? For anyone who has followed some of our story, does this seem like “rugsweeping” that we’re doing? I pray that it is not. Things are going well, but for months and months they were not. It’s not like we just had D Day and nothing has been faced. I realize that nothing is promised but that we both want the same thing, which is to work toward repairing our marriage and making it stronger.

My husband is a strong man, but I know this isn’t easy for him. I know he struggles; I know he triggers even if he doesn’t always share them with me. (I suspect that he carried me to the bedroom to make love the other day because he can’t stand the thought of being intimate on a couch with me because the AP and I were together on a couch, for example.) He has periods where he seems a little melancholy. I’m sure this is a mental battle like one he has never encountered. But I know God made my husband out of special stuff.

Not a lot of people could have endured a lot of what my husband did growing up. They had nothing when they came to this country and had to struggle hard find a way to build their lives without any help or support. I think that’s part of the reason my dad and my husband hit it off so well; they shared a strong work ethic and deep love for their families.

My husband has worked so hard in life and he doesn’t complain about the life he was dealt. So I don’t personally think that the way he is dealing with things related to our attempt to reconcile is bad. He communicates with me. He goes to IC. He is being intimate with me again, not shutting me out nor just having impersonal, distant sex to have a release.

I know there will be challenges, but I am hopeful for us. Reconciliation isn’t linear. It isn’t wrong to be hopeful, right? Things might seem to be moving fast, but for the longest time we were stagnant. And he is still maintaining physical and emotional distance and still taking his time. At least it seems like that to me?

Some of you have been at this longer than I...some even longer than I have been on this planet! I realize I have so much to learn still. I know there are no guarantees. But...does it seem like we’re still on track? Because to me it does. In my heart of hearts it does.

Hey ASCL

I am supposed to be working, but when I saw your post I just had to stop by.

I have to share with you, again from a still wounded BH perspective;

I asked him if he thought it would have been helpful him if we had a bonfire with the AP’s things. He responded, “Yes - if the AP was at the top of the fire.” Then he laughed a bit.

ASCL, that is a BH in healing.

I only found my laughter again when I got to a place of healing.

And then, all the rest of your post is just as perfect.

Thanks for allowing us all to be part of this story of hope and healing.

Love to your wonderful family ASCL.

[This message edited by ohforanewme at 5:14 AM, January 29th (Monday)]