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Madhatters Only Thread

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rachelc posted 11/13/2013 08:57 AM

who here cheated first and is staying because of what they did, knowing they would have left had they not cheated first?

Unagie posted 11/13/2013 19:51 PM

Rachelc is that how you're feeling? I can't say that's me, I thought I would leave, always did but I know enougb now to know I would not have. If that is how you're feeling then are you now thinking of leaving?

[This message edited by Unagie at 7:52 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]

rachelc posted 11/14/2013 08:02 AM

unagie - I think I would have left right away after his two affairs had I not had one. I would have never understood what lies behind an affair - an unhealthy way to solve pain or at least keep it at bay.
I would have assumed he just wanted to hurt me.

BUT.... he did see what one did to me and then he did it again. He was either in so much pain or just plain cruel. He said he didn't do it to punish me. But, he did justify his actions based on what I did.

I think forgiveness has a component to it that includes empathy. I get the first affair. I don't the 2nd. And that's why its so hard to FORGIVE MYSELF for staying....

JustAShadow posted 11/14/2013 08:05 AM

Rachelc - 90% of me says that yes, I do think I would *not* have stuck around as long as I have if I had not cheated first.

Justmiserable posted 11/14/2013 13:44 PM

Gotta raise my hand on this one. I know I would have left, had I not cheated first.

It's extremely hard as a mad hatter. After DDay, I felt like I deserved it. It was 10 years from the time I cheated and I thought my husband was a saint for staying with me. I thought he was my best friend and that no one on earth would ever be as worthy of my trust.

I'm 13 months from DDay but only 3 months from the full story. It was so much more than what I did. So much more sex, lies, and the relationship he had with her was much closer. I try not to compare, but it's like I'm not giving myself permission to feel the emotions that come with all these new details. I just can't wrap my brain around it sometimes.

rachelc posted 11/14/2013 16:06 PM

the question then becomes - are we here because we feel we deserved some payback? a gimme, so to speak....
or are we here because we know more about affairs and although we are the collateral damage, it's really not about us?

silverhopes posted 11/14/2013 17:06 PM

If it's OK for me to ask...

This question you are wondering, about whether you stay because you had an affair first instead of second - is this something you are going to work on? It seems like it's a way to punish yourself, or feeling like you "deserve it". That doesn't seem healthy. It seems like, if anything, you realize as you do the work that having boundaries against being mistreated are healthy, and that leaving is actually a viable option. What will you be learning from the punishment? When will the punishment end? It just doesn't seem healthy.

I know it's easier said than done. I've stayed (and still stay) in unhealthy relationships, from family to romantic. Saying no and walking away, one by one, has taken strength. It's not easy.

I am detaching again from my H. He has been yelling too much at our DS and me. It feels unsafe. No physical violence, but still, it sets a tone that I don't like and it upsets DS. His sister and brother-in-law will be visiting this weekend. He will meet her for the first time on Saturday. While it's possible that this is adding to his stress, he has ALWAYS had a temper. That, more than his infidelities, might be the real dealbreaker for me. Our son deserves better.

And that itself - it's hard to feel like we can and should have better, isn't it? That really should say DS and I deserve better, shouldn't it? Why am I so motivated to do well for my son, but not myself? We find ourselves doing for others before ourselves, either out of habit, or out of shame, or out of fear for being seen as selfish if we do for ourselves. After all, our A's were selfish. I think we need to learn a different kind of "selfish", a healthy version of "selfish". One that takes care of ourselves without compromising others. One that involves good boundaries.

rachelc posted 11/14/2013 18:14 PM

I think I've done enough work to realize that I'm staying because I realize what he did was about him. Sure, it might be because of what I did but I can't heal him, he had to do that himself and he didn't so... The wheels fell off the bus....
He's great now.
And I think I could forgive one affair. But I don't understand why he found another woman a couple months after the first, seeing what that one did to me. He must have teLly been angry and hurting. But he has no more strikes left. None. And even the crap he pulled after his affairs scream pain but should be deal breakers- he called my rape my 2nd affair, it took him 5 months to sell his affair car....
I can't handle any more. None. Afraid of I see either OW I'll run. And honestly, who wouldn't...

silverhopes posted 11/14/2013 18:31 PM

he called my rape my 2nd affair

I remember this. I remember you posting about telling about it in counseling, and how it sounded like it had hit him and he was beginning to understand what had happened to you... And then later part of his "why" was "You got to have 2, so I got to have 2". Sickening and heartless. What happened to you was NOT an affair; it wasn't even remotely consensual. And I find his attitude that it was to be very disturbing.


Unagie posted 11/15/2013 06:32 AM

Rachelc I think you need to examine why you're staying. Correct me here if I am remembering incorrectly but didn't you recently say the 2 of you are staying in shape and trying to keep attractive to make sure you can still attract someone in case it doesn't work? I really feel like you no longer want to be there 100%. The comments he's made about your rape, have you 2 fully discussed how they made you feel? I think a lot of what pisses me off as well is that after my confessions I could never imagine hurting my xSO that way again, but he had no issues continuously hurting me over and over and his need to compare to minimize his actions cut deeply as well. If we had stayed together there is no telling how much that would have impacted me. I hope you think on all this and keep talking to us.

rachelc posted 11/15/2013 07:56 AM

the 2 of you are staying in shape and trying to keep attractive to make sure you can still attract someone in case it doesn't work

I think we are both SUBCONSCIOUSLY doing this. He would never admit to it. I do because I do not feel 100% like I can jump in this marriage. plus, it makes me feel better about myself.

at any rate - I think we are clear about the rape/affair comment but there are some things you just can't unhear. Our MC set him straight on that.

We have good days. He's being great now. But, the hurt fog lasted a long time with him. I am still in limbo. I am here because I'm kind of waiting it out to see what happens. I'm giving what I can, trying to get myself healed.
But part of me feels like he doesnt' deserve this new me. There has been too much hurt.

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:15 AM, November 15th (Friday)]

silverhopes posted 11/16/2013 23:40 PM

Hi there you all.

Just so you know, I might not be on here as much for a while. I reached the final straw tonight with Mr Silver.

His sister and brother-in-law are in town, which is wonderful. Of course I know my H is struggling with his own feelings on that.

The thing is, that's not an excuse to yell and curse at us. And that's something that's never gone away. It's time to be honest with myself and admit that this has ALWAYS been a problem and has absolutely no signs of changing on his part.

Tonight I was trying to change my son's diaper. He's sick right now, so he's even moodier and more resistant than usual, which I understand. But my H decided to help me change him. As my son struggled, my H began to yell at me for taking too long, and the cursewords began, even though I was fumbling as fast as I could. When I had wiped up son mostly, I was trying to calm him down, and apparently I did the wrong thing from H's perspective. He yelled at me about not using a baby wipe fast enough, a bunch of sarcasm about "do we know how to use a baby wipe?" and then slammed the door after himself. All things he does ordinarily. All things that are NOT OK when they happen several times a day.

When he came back, I told him that him cursing at me and yelling at me just now had really hurt me, and that it was not OK, that I had been trying my best with our son, and he tore me down. He turned it around on me to say that I was just trying to say he couldn't do anything right and that I was always trying to call him on something, always trying to make him feel bad about something, yelled and cursed at me some more, said more sarcastic and cruel things, then pulled the blanket over his head. I tried to call him on shutting me down when I tell him my feelings, said it wasn't fair to turn that around on me. And that was it. That will be the last time he has the privilege of knowing how I feel. That will be the last time I try to share my feelings and be open with him.

My caseworker is not going to help me find the applications. In spite of being in the mental health system, where a caseworker's job is to help the clients with their paperwork, which is something I've struggled massively with ever since I had to start doing paperwork at age 14 (my first job), she's going to leave me to figure it out for myself. OK then. I am going to find the paperwork for a new place to live, no matter how long it takes. I have no idea how or where to start, but I'm going to figure it out.

I am going to flense down every single possession in the basement until I can carry it out of here with my own two hands. I've already started tonight. If I can help it, son and I will be spending as little time as possible around either my H or my godmother, or really as little time as possible around anyone who is either manipulative or emotionally abusive. Who cares if we're alone, at least we'll be safe. I am leaving this asshole who cannot even bother to treat us with respect and who cannot even take responsibility when he hurts our feelings. He has not been a responsible father. He has not taken care of our son. And he tears me down.

I've got a lot to do now. Take care everyone.

Unagie posted 11/18/2013 07:23 AM

Oh silver please take care.

JustAShadow posted 11/18/2013 09:36 AM


Sending hugs and mojo your way. Take care of you and your little one!

LosferWords posted 11/18/2013 09:41 AM


Ultimately, you have to do what is best for you and for your son. That can't be an easy choice. Sending you strength, and please know that we are here for any support that you might need.

silverhopes posted 11/18/2013 21:47 PM

Thank you everyone. I'm feeling completely nuts. Not well. The verbal abuse has got to stop. Even if that means son and I leaving.

silverhopes posted 11/22/2013 20:32 PM

How is everyone doing now? Are you all doing OK with the holidays coming up?

LosferWords posted 11/23/2013 10:00 AM

Hi Silver - We're doing pretty good. We've got Thanksgiving, which is a trigger holiday, and the 3rd antiversary of d-day #1 coming up next week. All in all, I feel like things have been remarkably calm this year compared to the last two years.

I did have a dream about the OM last night, though. I dreamed that my wife and I were at some sort of event where OM's band was playing. He was there, along with all of his band mates, and all of their family and friends, many who were privy to some level of knowledge about the affair in real life.

I saw him strutting around getting ready for the show, and in my dream I could feel my anger rising. I started to feel that sense of murder that was familiar to me during the first two years past d-day. Then I turned to my wife and said firmly, "I need to go for a walk".

She said, "Good for you", and we both walked out of there, and ended up having a nice walk on the beach as I calmed down, and the dream got happier from there.

Pretty intense dream, and very symbolic of letting go, if you ask me!

Hope everyone is hanging in there as we come up on this holiday season.

notsosureanymore posted 11/23/2013 12:24 PM

I have been reading here from time to time. i belong here too. best wishes.

silverhopes posted 11/27/2013 13:49 PM

Hope everything will go well for your this week, Losfer. Thanksgiving must definitely be a very triggery time of year for you guys. That is such an interesting dream. I agree - it sounds very symbolic of letting go. What did your wife think about the dream? It is so neat that in the dream you were able to say what you needed, she was able to hear you, and you two left as a united front and things got better from there. Definitely healing!

notsureanymore and all other lurkers - feel free to post whenever you need! Or read. Sometimes the forum might go through some quiet periods, but someone will always eventually respond. We're still here.

It's weird, this season ought to be triggery for me. It was when my H was carrying on with main OW, after I'd been kicked out of the house (but H and I were still together) and she was yet another housemate. But for some reason, I could care less about my H and his wimmenz. This time of year is completely about someone special in my family for me now. Her birthday would have been last week. My thoughts have been on her completely. A much better way to spend this time of year, I think, thinking about her.

Otherwise, struggling. Having trouble getting everything done to get life in order. Mostly mental health related, and it's frustrating and kinda scary sometimes. With Mr Silver, he ridiculed me again while his family was visiting, and I went off on him. He actually apologized. And he's drastically reduced having the outbursts because I called him on it. I'm a royal bitch at the moment. I hope I temper it so I can be firm without being mean or rude.

Take care everyone, and Happy Thanksgiving!

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