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Back 10 years after affair

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ChamomileTea posted 8/13/2020 23:42 PM

"I can see that you do whatever you want abdicate say literally nothing to me, then justify it to oblivion with any number of reasons why it's perfectly fine for you to just not for me"

I guess he's talking about me seeing my friends, who are married women and friends of the marriage. He's called me a hypocrite for that before.

So, he took the OW to dinner/shopping and you saw your friends, presumably in some sort of social situation. He's got a sexual history with the OW. You do not, I assume, have a sexual history with your friends... but YOU are the bad player here???

Are you starting to get see the picture yet?

If you're planning to do the 180, make sure you're doing it for YOU, so that you can start breaking through your emotional enmeshment. I suspect your WH already has what he wants, room to explore this affair without your prying eyes. I'd like to think I'm wrong about that, but he's barely out the door before he's on a date with her and implementing DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender).

Anyway, I don't believe the 180 is going to bring him back and I do think that no matter what you do, he's likely to try and twist it around to make you look like the bad guy. See above for case in point. He's got you in such a bind. His whole basis for separation seems to be his claim that you're jealous and emotional, so if you make demands that he not see the OW, you're playing into his hands, but if you don't, he can see her as much as he wants and then claim they aren't having sex. Of course, you can't prove he's lying because he's conveniently out of view, holed up in his own place.

Frankly, if I'm in a game I can't win, I'm just going to suit myself; decide what I want, compare it to what's actually achievable, and then go from there. I do think I'd see an attorney. From here, it looks like he's just easing his way out of the marriage, and I'd be damned if I'd just sit around waiting to get dumped. No matter what you do, he's going to turn it around to suit his own agenda anyway, so I'd be planning my own future and severing my emotional ties with my WH so that by the time he got around to making his break, I'd be living in the land of "meh, whatever dude".

This guy seems to LIVE for technicalities and splitting hairs, so you need to really prepare yourself for his gas-lighting and blame-shifting. He knows you well and he knows how to make you feel guilty. But you are NOT the bad guy this time. He is. Keep your eye on the big picture so he doesn't get you turned around on that. Intent matters, and I don't think he's being honest with his.

I'm sorry. I wish I could give you some more hopeful advice, but based on everything you've posted, it sure looks an "exit affair". Of course, he's doing it in the open so he can claim he's not cheating, but I hope you'll start seeing through all that and take steps to protect yourself.

On a side note, I have to wonder if this is new behavior for him or if he's always been this way... technicalities, gas-lighting, blame-shifting, and DARVO. Tell me you haven't been living your life like this???

hikingout posted 8/13/2020 23:42 PM

So let me get this straight...
You canít date for a month, but he took the OW to dinner and furniture shopping this evening?
And you canít go out with girlfriends? Do I have this right?

bewuzzled posted 8/14/2020 00:35 AM

Are you starting to get see the picture yet?[/quote

I'm still in a place where I'm the crazy one. I did not believe my IC when she suggested he may be gaslighting me. And has for the last 10 years. With my permission every step of the way. I'm trying to look at everything again, with your guidance too, as an objective person, outside friends and family. I mean I realize you only have my side, but I'd gladly show him anything I've written, its all the truth. That's why I came here. I think he's a different man than he's ever been before. I keep Thinking he's lost his damn mind.

meh, whatever dude"

How do I get here


On a side note, I have to wonder if this is new behavior for him or if he's always been this way... technicalities, gas-lighting, blame-shifting, and DARVO. Tell me you haven't been living your life like this???

Im honestly not sure anymore. I think maybe for the 10 years since original affair. But that's definitely the way he's been, without a doubt, since march and the end of the threesome.

bewuzzled posted 8/14/2020 00:38 AM

So let me get this straight...
You canít date for a month, but he took the OW to dinner and furniture shopping this evening?
And you canít go out with girlfriends? Do I have this right?

That's correct. I am completely unreasonable and wrong to have feelings about him spending time with her, when I have the nerve to see my own friends, who I've never slept with and are no threat to the marriage.

He just keeps telling me he hasn't done anything wrong, crossed any lines or been unfair or unfaithful to me.

gmc94 posted 8/14/2020 00:49 AM

taking a sexual partner to dinner and shopping - EVEN IF THERE IS NOT SEX - is still a "date" in my book (and I REALLY doubt that there was no sex).

Did it not occur to you to set any boundary about him seeing the OW during your separation? IOW, why wasn't that part of the agreement you two made?

bewuzzled posted 8/14/2020 01:06 AM

Did it not occur to you to set any boundary about him seeing the OW during your separation? IOW, why wasn't that part of the agreement you two made?

100% honesty. I knew he'd see her, I knew they'd keep talking, keep their friendship. He makes me feel like if I " take her away... As a friend" then it's yet another thing he loses to be married to me. And then I think, I can tolerate them having a friendhip with boundaries... I can do that. I've told them to be friends...the agreement was, no dating
( sleeping with anyone else) for at least the month we are supposed to be taking to get used to this and settle emotions a bit, and then talk again.
I told him when writing this agreement that he would have to be careful not to put himself in a compromising position. Guess he didn't hear me.

gmc94 posted 8/14/2020 01:35 AM

I know this is a tough time. I say this out of concern or something to try and take a bird's eye look at. It sounds as if you are compromising your needs/values for your husband.... negotiating your own boundaries with yourself.

And maybe not being honest with yourself about your needs or abilities? IOW, at the time of your 'agreement', did you really (like in your heart & bones really) think you could be OK if he continued this 'friendship' with a former lover?

OR

Did you agree to it in order to control/manipulate things, or to avoid your own uncomfortable feelings ("it's yet another thing he loses to be married to me" )?

Cuz you use the word "tolerate" - that sounds more like CoD or desperation than a boundary.

There's a whole lot of info about a BS exhibiting codependent behaviors after dday. Some therapists whom I really respect get PO'd about that, as they see it as pathologizing a BS at a traumatic time. I take the view that a BS may have some CoD behaviors as part of their trauma response, and try not to get bogged down into the label or Dx of CoD. The point is that regardless of how you came by these behaviors, it may be beneficial to learn about CoD and putting yourself first (common advice for a BS).

Do you read any of the BS threads?

ETA:

He makes me feel like
That is classic CoD thinking.


[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:36 AM, August 14th, 2020 (Friday)]

Dragonfly123 posted 8/14/2020 02:07 AM

Bewuzzled, Iím so sorry. This all sucks.

It may help to stop seeing this as a Ďfriendshipí, your husband has been involved with this women as a sexual partner and has prioritised his relationship with her over his marriage, he separated from you when you became unwilling to continue the involvement with her. This is not a friendship, she is the AP. This is an affair. Feelings are involved. They are going out and dating, despite your agreement. Not for the first time he has wilfully broken your boundaries and then used part hurts to justify his behaviour or actions.

You seem to be ingrained in defending him and laying the blame at your door. You can not wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of your life, while he uses that to manipulate and control this situation with the AP.

Drown out the voice that places you as the bad guy in this marriage and start to look objectively at this. Itís not acceptable that he broke yet another boundary you agreed. He knows damn well what having a dinner date with this woman would mean to you and went along regardless, then plays the victim, yet again.

ETA I just want to say I donít see your husband as a monster (jeez I wouldnít even say my own WH was a monster and he was awful to me). I see a situation built on the back of some very unhealthy dynamics.

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 2:31 AM, August 14th (Friday)]

ChamomileTea posted 8/14/2020 02:21 AM

"meh, whatever dude"

How do I get here

I think maybe what happened to you is that you haven't healed properly. What we're hoping for with WS's is that they identify and remediate the flaw in their character which was capable of saying "yes" to cheating. Essentially, what you would have looked for is why your core value of fidelity was weak and permeable. So, we say our vows and in so doing we state for the record that we BELIEVE in fidelity. The problem for the WS though, is that their belief has a "but..." in it. ie. "I believe in fidelity... but not if my spouse isn't paying enough attention to me," or "I believe in fidelity, but... not if someone comes along and makes me feel pretty and important". So, as a WS you dig in and find out why that "but..." was there and what it means in terms of becoming the person you want to be. Did it come from your FOO? Were you selfish or entitled? Did you have an undiagnosed personality disorder? Whatever. That's what you work with your therapist to find out, the what and the why you had this gap between your stated core values and what you actually did. Does that make sense to you?

Once you know what went wrong, you can then align your values and actions so they're always in sync. You build boundaries around those core values so you're no longer putting yourself on any slippery slopes getting your needs met. You minister to your own needs in order to make sure you're a healthy human who's self-fruitful in terms of contentment.

Note that none of that has anything to do with sublimating yourself in a relationship so that you're always in the one-down position. And yes... ask some of our healthy fWS's here at SI, it's a hard balance to be supportive of a hurting BS while also focusing on the interior work a WS needs to do. That work doesn't get done when you're in a shame spiral, even though the BS wants to know that you're ashamed of your behavior. The work involves learning to love yourself enough to INVEST in yourself, and this can come off as "selfish" to a hurting BS. You begin to see the traps. You have to learn to love yourself while at the same time expressing remorse for the person you became when you cheated.

So, here you are ten years later, and from what you've said, I don't think your healing is complete. It's not a case so much of "rugsweeping", but rather you LIVING in the one-down without ever investing in yourself enough to become healthy. And it doesn't look like your WH has healed himself either. It looks like he's accepted guilt, shame, and pick-me dancing instead of real healing from you, and then you both got used to it.

What do you know about codependency? Maybe you and your therapist have talked about it, I don't know. But I think it's important to remember that the term "codependency" was coined in reference to the way spouse's often develop an unhealthy dynamic with an active alcoholic. Family life becomes centered on the alcoholic and his needs, moods, tantrums, poor decision-making, etc. The family walks on egg shells, doing everything possible to keep the peace. But rather than take the kids and leave this unhealthy environment, the codependent spouse is attached to the alcoholic in a way that other people can't understand. They've taken on a care-taking role, but they've also developed some controls and their self-esteem has become tied to the outcome. The codependent has learned to WORK for love and attention, to be indispensable to their mate.

Of course, today we see that dynamic played out in lots of unhealthy relationship, so it's not limited to alcoholism. There are many, many dynamics which can cause that one-down situation where one spouse has all the power and the other is working to get love. So, let's say maybe "people pleasing" was already a part of your damage. Maybe you learned it in childhood to get attention and validation. Now, let's say you've got a BS who's not healing... what do you think happens next??

I'm not saying that's for sure what's going on. No way I could do that. But you begin to see how important it is (and always was) that you invest in YOURSELF and in your own healing. As you make that investment, you become stronger. When you're strong enough, you won't accept a partner who isn't as healthy as you are. You'll know that you deserve more.

Someone posted a thread a few days ago about Trust. And of course I have a few thoughts on that ()... but chief among them is that I've learned to trust ME. And even though being in R means that I'm taking a risk on a former cheater, I know that no matter what happens, I'm strong enough now to handle it. I can't be broken again by infidelity, because I've learned that I AM ENOUGH. Getting to "meh" is about detaching, and I haven't had to completely detach to the point where I don't love my fWH anymore because I've fixed the codependent bits. He adds to my life, but he's NOT my life.

Anyway, those are some things to think about. Only you know what best describes you, but from here, it sure does look like investing in yourself couldn't hurt.

sisoon posted 8/14/2020 14:40 PM

Emotion doesn't get through the web very well. Are you OK with this double standard that you can't see friends, but he can date?

Double standards screw up relationships. Stuck agrees he hasn't healed, which is good, but how does he miss that spending time with his ap screws up his healing? Does he realize he is, in essence, a cake-eater? He defines his relationship with you the way he wants to define it, and he allows himself to continue to see his ap.

You KNOW that NC is essential. You KNOW it! Didn't you once post in mortal fear, 'He's in the building!'?

I want to put my arm around your shoulder and say, 'Sweetheart, you're a remorseful fWS. You're a good candidate for R. He's not remorseful, and he's not a good candidate for R.' I think my W would say the same thing.

I don't know if you're co-d or not, but I think you accept worse treatment than anyone deserves. I urge you to continue working on that with your IC. Treat yourself well. Realize it's better to be alone than to be with someone who takes life out of you.

Not so BTW, you sound a lot stronger as a person than you did 10 years ago. I think that's great!

waitedwaytoolong posted 8/14/2020 18:56 PM

I just wanted to say Iím sorry for the position you are in. I have semi defended your BS in that while he hasnít handled it great, he wasnít a monster. I still donít think he is a monster, but he really hasnít handled the separation great.
If he had taken her shopping and you didnít have the non dating pact, it might have been ok. This is what happens in a separation. But you did have a non dating pact, and what he had was a date. Very disappointing.

You can either let it play out with this other woman, and decide if you can forgive him, or just cut bait right now.

Sometimes the train goes to far off the rails to ever get it back on the track. This is probably one of those situations.

Itís just sad. You should be enjoying your empty nest and growing old together. Itís sad. The same thing happened to me.

bewuzzled posted 8/14/2020 20:26 PM

I think maybe what happened to you is that you haven't healed properly.

agreed, I've begun to see that. I didn't finish the process. I worked hard and I became safe for him but in the end, I became subordinate to him, and thought that I should be. I became less than him, I was bad and he was good and I think it's affected me much more than I ever believed. I am starting to see that not forgiving myself and then learning how to love and trust myself was detrimental.


What do you know about codependency?

I haven't talked alot about this in IC yet, but I am currently reading a book she recommended on it. I've just had sooo much big stuff going on..it hasn't been addressed yet.

He adds to my life, but he's NOT my life.

Yea, I can't say this right now. He's been my whole life and it feels impossible to imagine by life without him. It makes me nauseated. It makes me want to compromise my boundaries, needs, wants and anything else that stands in the way of him coming home. And then I think..I am not this weak, scared, dependent woman, I don't want to be that. It's like I have to fight my own self all the time, it's no good. It's exhausting.

I still donít think he is a monster, but he really hasnít handled the separation great.

I don't think he is either, but I don't think he sees the ways he hurts me either. He is 100% justified in his ways. He's gotten really far from what we learned here and what we read in
" Not just friends"

Double standards screw up relationships. Stuck agrees he hasn't healed, which is good, but how does he miss that spending time with his ap screws up his healing? Does he realize he is, in essence, a cake-eater? He defines his relationship with you the way he wants to define it, and he allows himself to continue to see his ap.

Absolutely not, He does not see himself as wayward at all, not even a little. She is his friend and he's done nothing wrong. I'm the problem here, I'm too jealous and emotional and I caused him to lose her as GF, so I definitely shouldn't cause him to lose her as a friend. I can't seem to make the decision to draw a line in the sand, because I feel like I'll lose him and I feel a bit stuck in the pick me dance that started in March.

you sound a lot stronger as a person than you did 10 years ago. I think that's great!

Thank you for this, I'm struggling right now but I am definitely stronger that I was 10 years ago. 10 years ago I couldn't have/wouldn't have stood up for myself or my boundaries at all.

bewuzzled posted 8/22/2020 14:15 PM

I don't really know where I belong anymore. Wayward is my most comfortable place, but I also belong in D/seperation. I'm feeling more like a BS than a wayward these days, I guess I'm a madhatter, in a way.
We are 10 days into formal seperation and 5 months into seperation, which was in house since the beginning of March. Since H moved out, I've done work everyday to figure out my thoughts and feelings. It has helped so much that he's not here everyday. His presence was a constant reminder of the hurt and rejection I was feeling.. I couldn't get out from under that to really process anything. ( it IS though a whole other thing to wonder what he's doing outside this house, but I've actually done it very well).
So I have come a long way in accepting what's going on here, and that the M may be over. I spent soooo long in denial, fighting as hard as I could to make it not true.
I accept that I have no control over his feelings
I accept thay I have no control over the outcome here.
I accept that H feels the way he does.
I accept that letting GF into our marriage was a mistake that may cost me the life I loved.
I accept that a D may be what has to happen.
I accept that he may choose to be with OW and that I will be ok in spite of that.
I accept me, who I am as a person and how I feel.
Ive spent 5 months being told I'm too emotional, not reasonable, unable to communicate, and that the only thing I care about is me and my feelings. I know that isn't true and that he may never see it that way.
This has been one of the hardest things I've ever attempted to get through. It's been worse than the reconciliation after my A 10 years ago. We did that together. Now I'm told he felt all alone and that I've never been a partner to him. So I've done this alone, and I'm going to be ok. I am capable and I am loveable. I've spent 5 months believing I'm hard to love, selfish and frankly, stupid. I am not those things. I am strong and independent and I don't need a relationship where we are codependent and not happy together.
Its been a difficult thing to accept. Its always been him. I thought after we got through the affair, nothing could tear us apart. We would be together forever. I was so, so wrong. We are apart, we may stay apart. And it's going to be ok.
Thank you to everyone here, I'm so glad I came back. Perhaps I wouldn't have been able to arrive at this more peaceful place if I hadn't come back. I hope Stuck will come back too, but he said he isn't ready. He certainly doesn't see himself as a wayward. And that's ok, his stuff is his to deal with.

survrus posted 8/22/2020 16:38 PM

Bewuz,

Get checked for STDs you have no idea what the OW had and some STDs like HPV can silently kill you.

ChamomileTea posted 8/22/2020 22:48 PM

Ive spent 5 months being told I'm too emotional, not reasonable, unable to communicate, and that the only thing I care about is me and my feelings. I know that isn't true...

{snip}

I've spent 5 months believing I'm hard to love, selfish and frankly, stupid. I am not those things. I am strong and independent...

This is just more proof of waywardness. It's the marital re-write, the mental gymnastics a WS performs in order to give himself permission to behave in a way which he knows is wrong. And it's not about your previous infidelity because it's a new dynamic which occurred many years after DDay.
You're right though. I don't think your WH is ever going to admit he cheated. But as you well know, the first person a WS lies to is themselves.

What are you doing to move yourself forward? You sound pretty good, all things considered, but are you actively building on your life? Have you given thought to where you want to be a year from now, or five years from now? I hate to think you're just waiting in limbo.

bewuzzled posted 8/23/2020 03:03 AM

It's the marital re-write, the mental gymnastics a WS performs in order to give himself permission to behave in a way which he knows is wrong

It's crazy you say this. He has literally said the same to me, since the break up of the threesome.

it's not about your previous infidelity because it's a new dynamic which occurred many years after DDay.

To hear him tell it, this is simply another thing he lost because of my feelings.

Because I couldn't figure out how to do that relationship as well as he did, he had to reevaluate our marriage. Everything I do now, is too little too late for him.

I hate to think you're just waiting in limbo.

No, not at all. I work on acceptance and detachment every day. I feel better and stronger everyday. I am lookkng into plans to sell the house and move, starting to discuss financial issues with my trusted advisors, and getting my thoughts together for our one month discussion. I want to be able to communicate to him logically and as unemotionally as I can manage. Will look into attorneys soon and what I need to start over and be ok.

I played the pick me dance for too long. Damaging to the self esteem. I'm back in the gym and losing weight at a much too rapid pace. But I'm gonna be ok. Couldn't have said that with any conviction three weeks ago.


[This message edited by bewuzzled at 3:04 AM, August 23rd (Sunday)]

ChamomileTea posted 8/23/2020 14:24 PM

Because I couldn't figure out how to do that relationship as well as he did, he had to reevaluate our marriage.

He makes it sound so logical, doesn't he? ...like he's a rational thinker when what he's actually doing is throwing a childish tantrum because he can't have his toy. He's thrown his marriage and his values away over his own grandiose sense of ENTITLEMENT.

You realize, of course, that at the end of this 30-day trial, you're not at any obligation to take him back. Even if we set aside whatever might be going on with the OW during this period of NC, his treatment of you has been unacceptable. When push came to shove, you didn't have equal rights in that marriage. And I know you came here unable to imagine a life without him, but IME, there's nothing harder to deal with than a person who desperately needs to get their shit together but won't admit they've got an effing problem. Every time I get a reminder about how this guy twists words to serve himself, I shudder on your behalf.

It's not right to take a WS back, refuse to do your own work as a BS, and then keep them in the one-down for the remainder of the relationship. BS's ask all the time, "why does my WS want to come back if they were so unhappy in the marriage?". But that question goes both ways. Why take a WS back if you're going to hold them down and punish them forever. Ten years out, the things he's said to you aren't about you anymore. They're about HIM. When he tells you "this is just another thing I've lost because of you", he's shifting the blame for the fact that he hasn't done his work and he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding his demands for a thruple. He hasn't taken ownership of his choice to R and he hasn't acted in good faith, then or now.

My own DDay was well over five years ago. Do you know how many times I berate my fWH over his adultery today? ...zero. I haven't even mentioned it in years. It's not that I never think about it. But I made a choice, I take ownership of that choice, and as long as he honors his vows so will I. Ultimately, I'm here because I decided to be here, and when I made that decision, it was with the full intent of allowing him to return to equal partnership. Now I'm not saying that I didn't secretly have my doubts for the first couple of years, but my actions always supported full restoration. The things your WH has been saying to you indicate that he's never done the work in good faith. Your equality in the marriage only stands when you're in agreement with him. When you disagree, you're back to being a WW again instead of a fWW. That's not acceptable. It's an excuse to manipulate you into compliance.

ETA: If you had never cheated but had somehow made this mistake of inviting another person into your marriage, what would your reaction be to the way your WH has behaved?

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 2:29 PM, August 23rd (Sunday)]

bewuzzled posted 8/23/2020 19:17 PM

He makes it sound so logical, doesn't he?

Always. It's his thing.

You realize, of course, that at the end of this 30-day trial, you're not at any obligation to take him back. Even if we set aside whatever might be going on with the OW during this period of NC, his treatment of you has been unacceptable. When push came to shove, you didn't have equal rights in that marriage. And I know you came here unable to imagine a life without him, but IME, there's nothing harder to deal with than a person who desperately needs to get their shit together but won't admit they've got an effing problem. Every time I get a reminder about how this guy twists words to serve himself, I shudder on your behalf.

I do. I can now honestly say that I'm as much deciding if I want to be with him as mjch as he's deciding the same. Although these days, I feel like he's made his choice. I'm curious where he will say his feelings are at in a couple weeks, but I know that mine are becoming clear and solid and strong. I am Worth more than this behavior and I must treat myself like it.

When he tells you "this is just another thing I've lost because of you", he's shifting the blame for the fact that he hasn't done his work and he doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding his demands for a thruple. He hasn't taken ownership of his choice to R and he hasn't acted in good faith, then or now.

It's been so hard to see him in a different light than I have for 10 years, but I'm starting to. I 100% wholeheartedly believed that this is all my fault and that I'm selfish and terrible to him. And have been for 10 years. He had me totally convinced I'm the worst. Its been like pulling teeth without novacaine to change that for myself. You have been instrumental.

If you had never cheated but had somehow made this mistake of inviting another person into your marriage, what would your reaction be to the way your WH has behaved?

It would be absolutely unacceptable. I would feel totally betrayed by his protection of her feelings over mine. I would never have accepted this from him if I hadn't made myself unworthy of tbe treatment a wife deserves. He broke my heart, and I've told him so. Only to be told I need to learn how to control my emotions, how to communicate and not be so selfish.

ChamomileTea posted 8/24/2020 03:02 AM

It would be absolutely unacceptable. I would feel totally betrayed by his protection of her feelings over mine. I would never have accepted this from him if I hadn't made myself unworthy of tbe treatment a wife deserves. He broke my heart, and I've told him so. Only to be told I need to learn how to control my emotions, how to communicate and not be so selfish.

And it's totally unacceptable now. I mean, think about it... if he had told you ten years ago after DDay that your affair would always be held against you and that you'd never be a truly equal partner, it's unlikely you'd have invested another ten years with him, right? You spent those years in good faith but he's been holding back all this time. Otherwise, how can he say "another thing you've made him lose"?

I think it's okay for YOU to "reevaluate" too.

((big hugs))

DoinBettr posted 8/24/2020 09:46 AM

So, lets go to a different angle. This 3 some woman(3SW), has actually pulled apart some of your couple issues. She sounds like she might have wanted to help, but I could be reading into this too much.
How has 3SW acted towards you?
Remove your husband from the picture, do you think she cares about your feelings?
Perhaps you should talk to her and have her help you communicate about your husband. I think he is fence sitting because he liked the threesome arrangement. Who wouldn't?
The thing is, sooner or later this 3rd girl either steps it up or sets boundaries, because she wants a future too.
So, where do you think 3SW wants to be? Does she want your husband or was she there for the 3 somes?
She left, then came back, so she chose this setup. Does she click more with you or him?
Did you have an emotional connection with her at all?
Trying to help see if you going 180 will just drive him into the arms of the 3SW more or if an alternative is to have her around for a good communication session because she will call you both on your BS and help you stay together.
Is she friend or foe?

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