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EllieKMAS posted 6/29/2020 16:10 PM

There's a book called 'Cheating in a Nutshell' that is really good for a BS, but has a really good chapter on how infidelity affects children. And it does in profound ways.

Just my 0.02, but maybe reading some stuff about how to help your own thoughts (which I am sure are all over the place right now) may help you to organize some thoughts about how to help your boys. Other than that - my advice is to not badmouth your ww to the kids no matter how angry you are at her. Keep anything about 'her' as factual and dry as possible. And be honest about your own feelings with your son. I think it may comfort him to know that you're hurting and unsure right now too.

Sending strength. This is likely gonna get bumpier for all of you before it gets better unfortunately.

ShutterHappy posted 6/29/2020 17:28 PM

I am going to let him know the facts... I love you. You are my son. I will always love you and be here for you. AND yes, we weren't happy, but the answer to that is not to cheat on your spouse.

This can help you: there’s a chance that your children will experience infidelity in their life. What are the odds? 10% ? 25% I don’t know.

But you are their role model. How should they handle something like this? Basically, stay calm, in control, state what is acceptable and what is not, and stick to your values.

Stay strong, you’ll get through this.

TheGuy123 posted 6/29/2020 21:50 PM

# 1 rule in exposure "you are looking for support"

Here is the point. You are not exposing to point fingers, be spiteful, or looking for revenge.....YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SUPPORT FOR THE MARRIAGE!!!

You can play it differently when exposing the A to your side by stating words like "self respect" and "emotional abuse" and even "health threatening".

Your team will always support you standing up for your self and protecting your self from all the aspects an A can bring.

But for the other team You need to make it sound like you are looking for support for the marriage. This way when you are exposing the A it doesn't look like spite or revenge.

So go ahead and talk to the SIL and the first words out of your mouth should be " I'm calling you for support for our marriage".... After that listen and once you hear the bull shyt side then you can set the SIL straight.

If your sister inlaw responds with a "what can I do?" then you tell SIL "you can't share her sister with [AP's first name] and looking for a friend/support for the marriage.

This way you don't look spiteful, and yet you still get to expose the A.

At the end of the day it goes one of two ways. The SIL wants details or cuts you off and hangs up.

BSHusbandWI posted 6/29/2020 22:38 PM

You need to make it sound like you are looking for support for the marriage.

I'm not sure talking to SIL and suggesting this is congruent with the letter I gave to WW earlier today... It had parts of what Stevesn suggested on June 28th.

Basically, it said we're going to move forward to divorce and gave options for her to begin to show that she's truly remorseful, if she is interested in that (I don't believe she is)

I think I will just get the support from where I can and let WW get her support from her clan and move forward.

I will be sharing the name of an mediator with her tomorrow and see if she is game for that. If not, then I guess we spend a lot of money to get to a better place. Not my first choice.

tushnurse posted 6/30/2020 07:18 AM

Dude ... You are very disillusioned.

You got into a nearly physical altercation w/ your wife. Your kids witnessed it.
She threatened to call the cops.

DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE A WS that does NOT want to own their SHIT. She will F you over. She will make a false DV claim if she feels wronged. And cheaters often feel wronged by nonsensical things.

YOU NEED TO KEEP A VAR ON YOU AT ALL TIMES!!! Stop recording her in the car. YOU DON"T NEED IT. You are in a no fault state, and it is probably illegal to record her unknowningly. What she does in her car is her business. Be polite, be calm, and only talk to her about finances, and the kids. Read up on the 180.

Oh and you still need to consult w/ an attorney all on your own. You need to understand all of your options, and get a good feel for how this will go if you go through mediation, or if you try mediation and it fails what is next. You need to know if you can make her leave or you can leave the home without calling it abandonment. In home separation is an experiment in insanity.

ExiledfromNY posted 6/30/2020 08:30 AM

Related to what tushnurse said, don’t underestimate what happened during that altercation.

I am a paralegal and we do a lot of family law. You’d better believe that once she retains an attorney, she will use that altercation for maximum effect. She will attempt to get restraining orders (or the equivalent in WI) and leverage that to get what she wants. She might use that to get custody. She can also use that altercation to further push her bullshit narrative of ‘poor abused neglected me’.

Fairness has nothing to do with a divorce once attorneys are involved. It’s all leverage to get whatever she wants. I’ve seen ridiculous tiny financial errors blown up into huge deals in order to get what that person wants in return.

Consult an attorney. ASAP. If she gets an attorney and you don’t, you’ll be at a huge disadvantage. Once retained, follow their instructions. It drives the attorneys nuts when the clients don’t listen to a word they say.

And document every single interaction with your wife. If there is a conversation, as soon as you can afterwards, type it up.

Send a text to the effect of, “this is what we talked about and what you agreed to”. Keep it civil. I know, it’s not easy at all. But focus on what your goal is. Getting out of this torturous situation and keeping the kids safe and happy.

Pretend that a judge is watching every interaction you have with your wife. Do your best to not have the children witness anything else. If you think there will be a situation, say if she comes by to dispute a mortgage statement, for example, try to arrange to have the children with a relative or neighbor.

Please stay safe and focus on the long term goal.

KingofNothing posted 6/30/2020 09:46 AM

the letter I gave to WW earlier today... It had parts of what Stevesn suggested on June 28th.

Stevesn writes a good summary letter. That's good advice. Did she respond to this at all?

BSHusbandWI posted 6/30/2020 10:45 AM

KingofNothing:

She did not respond to it. But her demeanor got more calm and civil.

It did have the line in it that said i did not expect a response.

I know she read it. It has magically disappeared from where I left it for her.

KingofNothing posted 6/30/2020 11:49 AM

She did not respond to it. But her demeanor got more calm and civil.

Excellent. If you can walk this thing back to calm and civil, vice reaction and confrontation, it will serve you well. She will not be able to goad you into doing something that works against your long term interests. You're a smart guy, you know she's trying to push your buttons on purpose.

Despite Stevesn's letter, I don't hold out a lot of hope for her to have her moment of clarity and reverse everything at the last second. It rarely works that way. However, if she can calm down and negotiate, instead of deliberately provoking you, you will be able to navigate out of this without too much damage.

I know, man, do I know... you want to yell and scream and call her names. At this stage it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Stoney silence, frosty reserve. Minimal conversation. Don't engage, except for practical things. Start to envision life without her, as a practical reality. Divest yourself of those emotions, find your own calm and clarity.

Wishing you strength. I've gone through exactly this.

BSHusbandWI posted 6/30/2020 15:24 PM

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the concern. And I'm on guard.

I will participate on dinners, taking the younger one to where he needs to go and even the home improvements we've agreed to, since we're likely selling the house. But I don't need to (and wont engage on anything else).

During a "discussion" yesterday, she goaded me into two arguments about our relationship back to back. Each time I said (after arguing a bit) it does no good to discuss any of this. Nothing good will come of it. She claimed that I did not want to talk about it and take my part of the responsibility for the state of our marriage <pre-adultery> and that by not talking about it, I'm being like I always have been - telling others how to act and what to think and if I don't talk about the relationship it only defines her the bad person and i (me) have a part in this too. So that's why you (me) don't want to talk about the relationship.

It almost pulled me back into the argument. But I just looked at her and didn't say anything. MAN, IS THAT HARD TO DO. She just doesn't understand (and doesn't want to hear). That the relationship we had is sooooo back seat to the adultery. She'll never understand because she gave herself permission to cheat a long time ago and she experienced all of that plus all of our home life. For me, it's a black hole - I see no chain of events, a series of decisions, how it might have taken shape and gotten deeper or the things she said and did with him (and what he said and did to her) and her feelings along the way... I also don't have the details of the lies she told me and the boys to cover everything up.

Since she wont be helping me heal, I have an IC appointment tomorrow. I really hope that helps.

BSHusbandWI posted 6/30/2020 15:25 PM

There's a book called 'Cheating in a Nutshell' that is really good for a BS, but has a really good chapter on how infidelity affects children. And it does in profound ways.

Thanks for that Ellie. I'm reading through it. While it's helpful, and interesting, it is actually hard to read because there are so many parallels to my situation.

I'm thankful to be reading it though.

Westway posted 6/30/2020 15:47 PM

It almost pulled me back into the argument. But I just looked at her and didn't say anything. MAN, IS THAT HARD TO DO. She just doesn't understand (and doesn't want to hear). That the relationship we had is sooooo back seat to the adultery. She'll never understand because she gave herself permission to cheat a long time ago and she experienced all of that plus all of our home life. For me, it's a black hole - I see no chain of events, a series of decisions, how it might have taken shape and gotten deeper or the things she said and did with him (and what he said and did to her) and her feelings along the way... I also don't have the details of the lies she told me and the boys to cover everything up.

The best thing to do is juts let her shut up, then quietly say "I disagree with everything you just said, and that's unfortunate. But I'm through talking about the marriage. There is no marriage anymore. If we aren't going to talk about the divorce, then we are not talking." Then you turn around and walk away.

You may have to do this four or five times before it sinks in that you are not going there anymore. That's the way I had to do it with my STBXWW.

EllieKMAS posted 6/30/2020 15:48 PM

Since she wont be helping me heal, I have an IC appointment tomorrow. I really hope that helps.
Me too for your sake. I find it really helpful just to be able to barf it all up on an objective outsider.

As for grey rocking/180. It is SO hard. So so hard. But just like all difficult tasks, it gets easier with practice. Remember that scene in Fight Club, where the narrator is just doing mundane things while Tyler and Marla are together? "I am a zen master.' Go for that. no matter what manner of shenanigans are going on, be zen.

Stinger posted 6/30/2020 16:50 PM

Yes, and keep your cool. No need to talk to her about anything. Just walk the fuck away. You've got a nasty one on your hands.

ChamomileTea posted 6/30/2020 16:59 PM

During a "discussion" yesterday, she goaded me into two arguments about our relationship back to back. Each time I said (after arguing a bit) it does no good to discuss any of this. Nothing good will come of it. She claimed that I did not want to talk about it and take my part of the responsibility for the state of our marriage <pre-adultery> and that by not talking about it, I'm being like I always have been - telling others how to act and what to think and if I don't talk about the relationship it only defines her the bad person and i (me) have a part in this too. So that's why you (me) don't want to talk about the relationship.

Consider what it means that she's "right" fighting about the state of the relationship. She thinks she's right. She thinks her actions are mitigated by whatever issues there were in the marriage. What that means is that in her book, sometimes it's okay to cheat. There's a loophole that YOU weren't informed of.

Cheating is ALWAYS a character issue. Somewhere inside the cheater's core values, there's a "but" when it comes to fidelity. All she's doing is confirming that this flaw is still in humming along, alive and well-protected, without a jot of introspective scrutiny being applied. YOU were in that same marriage, but cheating isn't an option in your decision tree. It is in hers.

Stevesn posted 6/30/2020 21:15 PM

Just to ensure everyone understands the purpose of the letter I suggested. It is not asking for R.

It is more likely to lead to D than provide an opportunity to R.

But what it does is give the BS an opportunity to clearly state what is needed if an attempt to rebuild will be possible. Once stated, the BS can move on. In fact I recommend at that point he or she start the process to detach and separate. The BS cannot control what the WS does with that information. It is out of their control.

But by honestly stating what they would need to see over the months and years, the WS can consider what would be required and decide to try and do those things ... or not.

The only thing I put on the BS after that is not to be fooled into thinking that the WS “saying” they will do those things is the same as the WS “ACTUALLY DOING” them. Until they have taken major steps in working on themselves and really acknowledging and even feeling themselves the pain they caused the BS .... and taking the steps requested to heart and truly working them.... there is nothing left for the BS except to heal themselves and find happiness on their own away from the WS.

That’s the purpose of the letter. I absolutely agree that BSH’s WW is no where near the point to even turn in his direction, let alone take positive steps toward rebuilding.

Keep up what you are doing BSH. If you are worth it to her, she’ll realize what she needs to do. If that happens, we’ll be here to help guide you through it.

BSHusbandWI posted 6/30/2020 22:30 PM

Stevesn (and others):

I was with you as I read your "sample letter" I borrowed quite a bit from it for my letter. I understood the intent. I think if I had been a few weeks earlier, I would not have been able to write that, let alone give it to her... Way too much pain, anger, disgust etc. But right now it made sense for me to write it and give it to her.

Printing it felt good to me. More final and carried more weight for me than something purely 1's and zero's. Perhaps that's a bit old school, but I wanted to do that. It felt right to me. It felt right for me at this point for a number of reasons.

First, right under the surface of all of this bluster and self assurance I'm dong my best to show (more on that in a bit) is a mess of a man. I have no confidence, doubt myself and my manliness, feel ashamed, out of control with an amount of rage, anger and aggression that I never thought I was capable of. On top of that I have an extreme need to catch her and that POS, find out who he is and bring his life as he knows it to a crumbling halt by exposing him.

That rage takes me to places I never thought I could ever go in terms of my wife... I now think of her as a whore who spreads her legs for anyone because that's who she is and I'm ashamed for her and that perhaps I was a part of that transformation (maybe) and that it took this long for me figure that out.

I know that I will have a very hard time trusting many that I encounter in my life and that scar and ability to actively give trust is something that I feel is no longer in my nature (and while you all don't know me, I gave trust away pretty freely during my life - and now I don't think I can expose my soul like that any longer). I have to find some way to rebuild myself because I don't feel like the same person anymore. I feel like I already need to apologize for the first 2 or 3 future relationships that come my way, because I think they will be shit shows. I have no idea how I'm going to treat those women - but I don't think it will be healthy for them or me. I just want to be me again, but I honestly don't know how to do that because I think he's gone. And all that is left is the wreckage from this adultery .

About my apparent self-confidence... I did give her the letter the other day - when i saved it I named it simply "Goodbye". I had already seen a lawyer and we discussed mediation, and that lawyer being my lawyer if WW was not interested in mediation. Today, I went to see another lawyer to rule her out for WW. I also gave WW the card to the mediator - encouraged her to call, ask about how things work, the process, fees, etc. On at least occasions today, I dismissed snappy or passive aggressive comments to engage me an an argument (with many of the suggestions from all of you - thank you).

She has complained angrily that "my letter that was full of blame, and written to make her the bad person to my family and the kids will be answered point by point in writing" that's basically what she said.

Also in interactions today were her saying that she was listening to a self-help book. To which I replied, "That's great" without trying to sound sarcastic or like I didn't care. But she accused me of saying in a tone that wasn't nice. I reminded her that, I said "That's great" and I have no control how she takes that in and interprets it.

I sit here typing this, having wiped tears from my eyes multiple times - alone - and realizing that the journey that I have ahead of me is mostly alone. Yes, i have all of you for support, and my friends and family and I hope my two boys, but the struggles, and personal and emotional growth are mine to own and I am hoping I am up to the task so I can be whole again... some day. I don't know how that is going to happen.

I think I'm doing the right things, but most things do not feel right. Especially me.

Sorry to ramble, I don't think I have ever been so unsure of myself at any point in my life.

Stinger posted 7/1/2020 06:00 AM

This initial phase is really tough. I went through this many years ago. Lost over 40 lbs in 2 months and was a mess. I was fit already and looked like a corpse.

Your wife has zero remorse and takes zero responsibility. She is pure evil and is sadistically trying to bait you. Avoid her at allmcosts. Never take the bait.

I was 42 when this happened to me. Took a while but life improved dramatically after I got out. But, I was never the same.

Freeme posted 7/1/2020 06:31 AM

I did not want to talk about it and take my part of the responsibility for the state of our marriage

You sound like you did great in both conversations with your WW. I wanted to add a line I've seen her mulitple times that speaks to your situation.

"I will take %50 persent of the blame for problems in the marriage but the affair is %100 on you. You chose to have the affair rather work on the problems."

Buffer posted 7/1/2020 06:33 AM

Brother, it isn’t rambling it is a way to convey what your thoughts are and where your head space is.
It is beneficial to get it off your chest as well as for others to provide advice from their perspective of what you could anticipate or expect as well as dealing with some issues.
One day and strength to you, respect ✊
Buffer

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