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No More Rug Sweeping

Pages: 1 · 2 · 3

Neanderthal posted 1/21/2020 14:52 PM

If you aren't familiar with my story here are the cliff notes:

9 or so years ago I convinced my wife to try the swinging lifestyle. I constantly pushed through her rules and boundaries involving what I was allowed to do with other women.
I sexted a woman we had met through the lifestyle without my wife's knowledge. Happened 7 or 8 years ago. Disclosed in 2020
I had PinV intercourse with a woman in front of my wife, during a swinging night. This was very much against our agreed upon rules. Happened in 2013.
I later kissed that same woman at a Halloween party. This was against our agreed upon rules. My wife was also pregnant at the time. Happened in 2013. Disclosed in 2019
I was asked to go home with a woman at a bar while away on a work trip. I said yes. Then the woman remembered I was married and changed her mind. Happened in 2013. Disclosed in 2020
During the early part of swinging I joined but didn't use Ashley Madison. Around 8 or 9 years ago. Disclosed in 2020

Through all of this I was a verbally abusive drunk. I told her I wasn't in love with her anymore and that I wasn't attracted to her either.

We then rugswept what she knew and I kept the rest to myself with no intentions of ever telling her. I think the birth of my daughter forced me to work on being better. I stopped drinking in 2015.

Last July I found out my wife was having an affair (6 month EA/PA). It only stopped because I caught them. Her infidelity eventually prompted me to tell her the secrets I had been keeping from her.
This brought me to SI.
I am sorry to everyone here in this community for pretending I am something I am not. I am not Innocent

We are currently separated. She wants to R and I am in limbo.

What I do know:
We will be in each others lives for many years to come. Thanks to our beautiful daughter.
I don't want to hurt her anymore.
Regardless of R or D, I want to help her in anyway possible to deal with my cheating and wayward ways.
I want to continue to better myself. I don't believe I am the same man that did those terrible things years ago, but I still have plenty to fix.
I want to learn to love myself.

I am a madhatter but the purpose of this thread is to work on me while wearing my wayward hat.
Which is very hard because I still feel very much betrayed. Its maddening!

I have no contact with any of the women I was involved with. I shared everything I can remember. This all happened during a very heavy drinking period of my life. I say that not as an excuse but for why it's hard to recall all the details. As I remember details I offer to share them with my wife.

I have been reading all over SI for 6 months now. The whys......they bother me. When someone gives there whys, all I see are excuses. That applies to myself as well. Lots of people have FOO issues, low self worth, and resentments but don't cheat. I cheated because I chose to. I am a very selfish person.

I'm hoping something I do IRL, here, or in IC will jump start me back to life. Maybe fixing my shit is the goal I need.

MrCleanSlate posted 1/21/2020 15:15 PM

N,

Very well written and I can tell it took a lot to lay yourself out there like that.

I'm not going to start reading your entire thread, but are you in AA presently? It really does help.

Everyone's Why's are so varied, but the fact is it takes a lot of hard work to really get to the truth of who we are. It is hard to accept our faults. I drank too much. I never thought I was an alcoholic, mostly because I was a 'good drunk', this is until someone pointed out that I was drinking as much or more than some of the hardcore drunks. It was all about perspective.

When I was diagnosed with depression after my A I refused to accept that. It wasn't an excuse, it was another denial that I was not the super man I thought.

And so went my journey of self discovery.

hikingout posted 1/21/2020 15:29 PM

I want to continue to better myself. I don't believe I am the same man that did those terrible things years ago, but I still have plenty to fix.
I want to learn to love myself.

YES. Very good start.

I have been reading all over SI for 6 months now. The whys......they bother me. When someone gives there whys, all I see are excuses. That applies to myself as well. Lots of people have FOO issues, low self worth, and resentments but don't cheat. I cheated because I chose to. I am a very selfish person.

YES, I can understand what you mean here.

The truth is there is NO EXCUSE for infidelity. We did it because we wanted to do it. We were selfish and only were thinking of ourselves. But, we have to figure out why we are that way. Why would we want to choose these destructive paths. It can also give you a lot of self compassion because you can also identify the unhealed trauma you were carrying around and you can really see the impact that has had to your thoughts, behaviors, decision making, etc.

The whys are not why did I cheat. I actually wish we would give it a different name. What we are looking for is a way to move forward with a list of things that must change.

In order to change things we must also understand where they came from. That's why we are always talking about FOO. In therapy, most anyone who is struggling they will help you look at your FOO. By understanding it you can help yourself recognize unhealthy patterns in thinking.

We all cheat due to character flaws. Your whys are more about that.

So, for example, a very easy couple that are pretty universal:

1. I felt entitled because _____. Often it's because you held resentments, felt you were supplying something more than what your partner was but it could be anything. So, I spent time debunking why I thought those things and learned a lot about the expectations I had on myself that were not realistic.

2. Often when we don't love ourselves we look for things to fill that hole to make us feel happier, validated, excited, whatever. Validated is most common. When we love ourselves we tend to have boundaries because we are clear what makes us happy/unhappy.

I also didn't know if you were still drinking? I don't think anything can change unless you get that part taken care of too. I can understand how hard that is in the middle of the storm you are in. Hope you are hitting some meetings?

There is a lot of love between you. I would like to see both of you learn to love yourselves, to learn to curate your own happiness, and as I have said in your other thread I am rooting for both of you. I think if you guys can get individually more healthy there is much to be salvaged here if you choose that path.

I am glad you decided to post over here too. I think there is a lot of knowledge over here that can help you understand yourself, and probably also lifedestroyer as well. Ultimately it will benefit your daughter which is a goal you both have.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:30 PM, January 21st (Tuesday)]

Neanderthal posted 1/21/2020 15:29 PM

I am an alcoholic. I went to AA regularly when I first quit. That tapered off and I stopped going. I was sober for over 4 years. I drank until I pissed myself on my DDay. I've only went back to AA once since July. I haven't drank since my DDay.

I am currently in IC.

I also recently confessed my infidelity to my sister as well. I didn't go into detail with her but she knows enough now. I felt this was needed since I've relied on her heavily over the last 6 months. I felt like a fraud.

numb&dumb posted 1/21/2020 15:34 PM

I want to learn to love myself.

Out of all of the things you've written about I think this is the most insightful and important one.

MrCleanSlate posted 1/21/2020 15:40 PM

You've been through the AA steps so you know the value of keeping it up, or not.
I found it helped me in a lot of other areas of past actions as well. Just my perspective.

I felt like a fraud

Starting to admit to yourself is a big step to healing.

Hikingout gave a lot of really good advice.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 3:40 PM, January 21st (Tuesday)]

hikingout posted 1/21/2020 15:42 PM

I am an alcoholic. I went to AA regularly when I first quit. That tapered off and I stopped going. I was sober for over 4 years. I drank until I pissed myself on my DDay. I've only went back to AA once since July. I haven't drank since my DDay.
I am currently in IC.
I also recently confessed my infidelity to my sister as well. I didn't go into detail with her but she knows enough now. I felt this was needed since I've relied on her heavily over the last 6 months. I felt like a fraud.

All good steps. It will be interesting to see how IC triages both the betrayal and the cheating. B

I am really glad you are in IC, I couldn't have done any of this without this site and IC.

DaddyDom posted 1/21/2020 17:09 PM

@Neanderthal,

There are some things you said, things which may feel rather small at the moment, or perhaps negated by other things you've said... but these are things that held me back for years in my recovery. So I'd like to point them out to you. Not to be mean to you, but in the hope that maybe I can save you and your spouse even a little pain.

I don't believe I am the same man that did those terrible things years ago

This one small phrase had me stuck with my head up my ass for years, and prevented me from making any "real" progress. I knew what to say, what to do, even what to think, but because I didn't "feel it" and "accept it" in my heart and soul, it negated everything else. The one thing I think we must all come to full terms with is who we are, and sadly, who we are is a combination of how we live our lives today, and how we lived our lives in our past. You said a lot of good things above, and as hikingout pointed out, things such as "I want to learn to love myself" show that you understand what's needed here, even if you are still on the path to getting there.

The problem is, we ARE the same people who did all those terrible things years ago. And if we are really honest with ourselves, we've probably shown similar tendencies (lies of convenience, ignoring the truth, using others to make us feel special, manipulating others to get the outcomes we want) for many years before that. Moving forward, you may develop the love and patience of a saint and live your life with meaning and purpose. But you will still be the guy that cheated on his wife before he made those positive changes in his life. Again, I don't say this to hurt you in any way, rather, the acceptance of this fact is paramount. You said you need to learn to love yourself, and no truer words could be spoken. However, how can you learn to truly love yourself without accepting what you've done as a truth, as a reality, as part of the story of who you are today?

I will share a secret with you. There are two times in my life when dumping a lie felt like someone pulling a ball and chain off my leg. The first time was when I got caught cheating by my wife. After all the lies and sneaking around and coverups, and as much as it hurt to have the truth come out like that, it was actually a relief in many ways. I felt like I could breathe again. I no longer had to carry around the weight of the lies. As time went on, and my wife and I talked more and more (and yes, I did TT) each time the truth was told, I felt better. (And so did she.)

The other time I felt that kind of relief was when I finally allowed myself to accept that it was me who did those things, and that it will always have been me. It is very easy to say, or to imagine. But it is very, very hard to actually allow this belief to exist, if for no other reason, because it is the foundation of wayward thinking to begin with. It is the kernel from which so much bullshit grows. Once you can honestly accept that you are a human being, and have both moments of pride and regret in who you have chosen to be and how that manifested itself in your life, the sooner you can move forward towards accepting yourself, and then loving yourself.

The whys......they bother me. When someone gives there whys, all I see are excuses. That applies to myself as well. Lots of people have FOO issues, low self worth, and resentments but don't cheat. I cheated because I chose to.

Now, others may disagree with me here, and again, this is meant with love, not to hurt. However, when I read the words, "I cheated because I chose to", all I hear is someone who is unwilling to do the work, and choosing to avoid the reality of who they are. In the same way that a person who doesn't love themselves can't show love to others, a person who does not know who they and why, is doomed to be defined by others, and in so doing, will be incapable of loving themselves. How can you possibly love someone you don't even know? How can someone else love you if they can't know you?

hikingout started to point this out to you, but please allow me to join in. Figure out your whys.

Imagine a man walks into an auto-mechanic's shop and tells the mechanic that he has a flat tire.
Mechanic: Hey fella, how you get that flat tire?
Fella: I'm not sure really. I think the tire just wanted to go flat.
Mechanic: Uh-huh. Weird how that happens, eh? Let's just take a look... hey, is there some reason there's a bunch of nails in this tire?
Fella: Yeah, I saw those in the road just a few hundred feet back. I just ran over them, they looked harmless.
Mechanic: Uh-huh. And I see the treads on this tire are almost non-existent.
Fella: Yeah, I like to drive 'em until they are bald. Tread is so overrated.
Mechanic: Uh-huh. So let's see, what you're saying is that you were driving your car with treadless tires, saw a bunch of nails and decided to run over them anyway, and from all of this you deduced that the tire popped because it felt like it?
Fella: Yep.
Mechanic: Well fella, I got good news and bad news. The good news is I can fix the tire enough to get you home, but the bad news is that I can't fix what caused it to go flat in the first place.

I think you are on the right path. Probably the main thing holding you back right now is you.

cainsite posted 1/21/2020 17:53 PM

Boy, that is a lot of water under the bridge.
Sounds like you have your head screwed on straight now.
I have seen swinging pop up a number of times on the forum. Obviously since the posts are here they have not worked out great.

I think the only advice I can give you is if you do go through with R (contrary to many here a believe doing it for your kids can be a good reason). You will need to let the old marriage go and start building your new 2nd marriage.

That is the goal I am striving for, and I hope I get there.

survrus posted 1/21/2020 18:39 PM

Neander,

Thanks for the well written public service announcement not to start swinging. It really makes a mess out of lives.

Neanderthal posted 1/21/2020 18:48 PM

It will be interesting to see how IC triages both the betrayal and the cheating.
Right now she's just trying to help me see that i'm not worthless. Today session was a good one. She was the last person I needed to come clean too. She helped remind me what I was before my DDay. The progress I had made as a person, that it wasn't all for nothing.

What we are looking for is a way to move forward with a list of things that must change.
This is a much more appropriate description. I can and do get behind this way of thinking.

I don't believe I am the same man that did those terrible things years ago
This one small phrase had me stuck with my head up my ass for years, and prevented me from making any "real" progress.
I should have rephrased that but I definitely understand what you are saying. I am the same man, that cheated on my wife. I feel that I had made strides to become a better man. I do worry though. Am I a better man? or are my terrible ways just dormant until the next hard part of my life happens.

However, when I read the words, "I cheated because I chose to", all I hear is someone who is unwilling to do the work, and choosing to avoid the reality of who they are.
I hope to prove you wrong. I want to become a better person.

Your car/tire analogy. I completely disagree with it. There is an actual failure. The tire failed because they had absolutely no other choice based on the elements around it. Choosing to cheat has no such smoking gun or guns. There is no cause and effect here. I do a root cause analysis (RCA) often in my current job. I fix things for a living. RCA's don't explain cheating. As long as there is free will, there is no smoking gun.

There are things that mold us into who we are, and these things make it easier to chose to do bad things (FOO issues,resentments,bad coping skills, etc). Focusing on how to fix the things that made it easier to be bad people. That's work I can get behind. Otherwise everyone with FOO issues are destined for failure. Obviously that's not the case.

Boy, that is a lot of water under the bridge.
Sounds like you have your head screwed on straight now.
I'm not sure what you meant exactly. Water under the bridge to me almost seems like a term used to rugsweep. I do not want to do that. My head isn't on straight either. I don't have my shit together.

Thanks for the well written public service announcement not to start swinging. It really makes a mess out of lives.
I didn't mean to imply that swinging caused all this. It was a tool I used to continue being a bad person.

[This message edited by Neanderthal at 6:48 PM, January 21st (Tuesday)]

Neanderthal posted 1/21/2020 18:52 PM

I also wanted to say my wife LD is more than welcome to post here. If I say something that is obviously incorrect, or if I remember something wrong. Please correct me. Or any other input you have. If you'd prefer to talk to me privately, I am available anytime.

IHatePickingName posted 1/21/2020 19:22 PM

Hi Neanderthal, i am glad you jumped in here. I know how hard it is to deal with your wayward hat while the betrayed one is still dominating your mind.

DaddyDom posted 1/21/2020 19:26 PM

The tire failed because they had absolutely no other choice based on the elements around it.

True. We, as humans, always have a choice. That being said however, our choices can be limited by things beyond our control. I work in the corporate world, and have seen thousands of people lose their jobs overnight because of a business merger or such. They did nothing wrong. They didn't deserve it. And they certainly didn't choose it. It chose them. They can only choose how to respond.

Let's go back to the self-love thing. As we've already said, you cannot love someone else if you cannot love yourself, if but for the simple fact that you cannot give what you do not possess. Do you agree?

So, if we lack self-love, then... can we choose to love? Or is that simply not an option? Are the choices we have... limited? I believe they are. Sometimes this is obvious. I wouldn't expect someone who never learned to swim, to jump out of a boat and swim to shore. He lacks the neccessary skills and stamina. That doesn't mean he can't learn to swim. But until that happens, his choices are limited. He had better hope for a life raft.

At the time you had your affair, you lacked some things. You lacked boundaries for one. You lacked empathy. You lacked compassion. You lacked healthy coping skills. And since you lacked self-love, that must of had an effect on your self-worth, dignity, and accountability.

And you missed the main (between the lines) point of the story. It wasn't the tire. It wasn't the nails. It wasn't the tread. It was the dumbass behind the wheel who made the decision, knowing what the likely given outcome would be, to plow ahead and drive through those damn nails in the first place.

The legal system often uses a rule of thumb called "If not for" when deciding causation in a case. If not for the guy driving through the nails, knowing he had bald tires and not caring or not thinking it through, then the tire would not have popped.

Here is my argument to you. I believe, firmly, that if you had self-love, if you had healthy boundaries, if you had healthy coping skills... you would have chosen to NOT cheat. And it's a sucker bet, because honestly, anyone with those skills would NEVER allow themselves to cheat in the first place. My wife is an example of such a person.

That is why the Why's are so important. If nothing changes, then nothing changes. If change is to be pursued, it makes no sense to shoot in the dark or with a blindfold on. We have to know WHY we made the choices we did if we are to remove the factors that led us to that point. How can we ever be safe again, for ourselves or our spouses, if we cannot even explain why we did what we did? Why should you be trusted again? Here is a much shorter conversation:

Wife: Why did you cheat on me?
Husband: Because I wanted to.
Wife: And how do I know you won't ever cheat on me again?
Husband: Because I'll choose not to.
Wife: I thought you wouldn't choose to in the first place. How can I trust you?

The answer to that question lies in removing the factors that lead to the infidelity in the first place. When you can demonstrate that self-loathing has turned into self-love. When your lack of boundaries turns into self-respect and dignity. When the selfishness turns into empathy. That is how your spouse, or anyone else, especially you, can trust you won't cheat again. And the only way you can know how to do that, is to know how it got so out of whack in the first place. Which goes back to our Why's.

Neanderthal posted 1/21/2020 20:35 PM

I understand your tire analogy better now. It makes more sense. I get in trouble on forums for trying to read between the lines. thank you.
I also think we are much closer to agreeing than not. I want to continue fixing the issues I ignored years ago when I was cheating.

Here is my argument to you. I believe, firmly, that if you had self-love, if you had healthy boundaries, if you had healthy coping skills... you would have chosen to NOT cheat. And it's a sucker bet, because honestly, anyone with those skills would NEVER allow themselves to cheat in the first place.
I 100% agree with this.

If nothing changes, then nothing changes. If change is to be pursued, it makes no sense to shoot in the dark or with a blindfold on. We have to know WHY we made the choices we did if we are to remove the factors that led us to that point.
I agree with this as well.

I also believe I have worked on some of those issues before my Dday, maybe by getting lucky and shooting in the dark, IDK.

For example my coping skills were terrible. During my cheater years I was dealing with a lot of stress. Most of it was self induced. I had no friends, no hobbies, new job I hated that I felt inept at, and new marriage I was terrible at, and FOO issues. Add in some seriously stupid resentments, a dash of selfishness, and a whole lot of alcohol, and you get a perfect storm. In that storm I chose to cheat and be a terrible husband.

I'd say finding out my wife cheating on me, was far worse than anything I was going through during my cheating years. Even though I fell apart, I didn't fall back to my old ways completely. I only drank once. I'm proud of that. I tried to support my wife anyway I could. Whether it was helping her buy a car, talking with her old job, getting through our daughters first day of school. I didn't feel enabled to cheat or harm my wife in retaliation. I had the opportunities but I had the strength to do the right thing. 6,8,10 years ago....I would have fucked anything moving, drank myself to death, lost my job, ruined anything good I had left. I'm not looking for a pat on the back for that. I did what most good people would do. I didn't excuse myself from "acting" like a good person.

I put "acting" in quotes because I originally had "being" in its place. I don't think its fair to say I am a good person. I'm still just acting like one.

But I did fail. I came here looking for help, and proceeded to lie and omit who I really was. I lied to my wife, IC, family, etc.

Organic2003 posted 1/22/2020 00:34 AM

Hi Neanderthal

As your name suggests I think you are a soft great man who is hard to understand like your ancient predecessors.

I also, like LD suggests, you are being too hard on yourself. I have read the heart wrenching posts of yours and LD's.

The swinging has been gone over ad nauseam. Your other revelations IMO do not compare well to LDs but needed to be brought out to your best friend.

LD was so hard to read with her defensiveness and anger I almost had to stop. Then she got it! ya it was a long time coming and awful (Polly) but she became a woman I could feel for. She even advised others to not be her WW self.

I am going to tell a story I hope it is short enough to read.

Years ago my teenage daughter and her best friend got into a rough and tumble fight on the best friends front yard with three feet of snow. They were in full winter dress, no real possibility of injuries.
The mother called the sheriff and due to her desire to have my daughter jailed for the altercation the sheriff had little choice but to issue disorderly conduct charges to both girls.
After arguing the foolishness of the whole situation to no avail with the DA the matter ended in the circuit court!
After the states evidence was presented, the judge just sat in dismay. He asked the DA "what the hell is this case in my courtroom for?". Then turned to the girls and asked if they still wanted to be friends? When they enthusiastically said, "yes", the judge simply called them to the bench! Two scared girls walked up to the bench and he issued his order! "Give each other a hug"
The gavel went down "Case dismissed"

I know this is simplistic but somehow I hope the two people I have read and developed a love for find away to become best friends and lovers again.

Neanderthal posted 1/22/2020 10:19 AM

Let's go back to the self-love thing. As we've already said, you cannot love someone else if you cannot love yourself, if but for the simple fact that you cannot give what you do not possess. Do you agree?
Yes and No. I feel like I am pushing back on everything you are saying, but only to document my current beliefs. Maybe in time I'll see things differently. I think it's possible to love others without loving yourself. I don't think its possible to love others correctly, without loving yourself first.

Before my DDay I believe I was learning to love myself. I felt confident in my abilities. I felt successful in most aspects of my life. I was comfortable in my own skin. I didn't rely on others to build me up. I didn't need my wife. Which was not always the case. The problem was I wasn't showing love correctly, or in a way my wife could see and feel it. I also may have needed her too little or it appeared that way. I absolutely took her for granted. She was much more than a person to make dinner, watch our daughter, and split responsibilities with.

The self hate came back with a vengeance after her affair. I was the villain, I caused this, I'm responsible. I could have done better. All things most BS's feel after dday, the problem is in my case its partially true. As much as her FOO issues may have affected her, so has everything I've put her through. If/when she does her WHYS, I know I'm one of them. That's a dynamic most people just cant understand. So the choice was easy. I love her, so hate myself instead. I know that's flawed thinking. I cannot hate myself, I have value. My IC session yesterday really helped me remember that.

I will share a secret with you. There are two times in my life when dumping a lie felt like someone pulling a ball and chain off my leg
I too felt relief after confessing to her. I immediately felt guilty for feeling relief. Here I am giving her a DDay and I feel better? Infidelity is a mind fuck. I also don't know if my intentions were pure or self centered. Did I confess just to ease my conscience or to help her? Why didn't I feel the need to do the right thing before she had an affair?

Organic2003, Thank you for your support. For the purpose of this thread, I do not want to compare her and my infidelities. Your daughters story is also a good read and pertinent. SI has been a gift to me. My wife and I have dumped our lives out for strangers to see. Some take sides, some then switch sides, some genuinely feel a connection to our story, some pour gasoline on us, then sit back and enjoy the show with the popcorn. I can handle the gasoline a lot better then the support and genuine connections. I guess its because I don't want to let anyone down, or hurt anyone anymore. People being invested in me, and my story, scares me. I've even purposely pushed away great people on SI, just to avoid letting them down. That's a pressure I applied to myself, and I know its wrong. But I don't know how else to handle it.

I guess that's my way of saying root for me, root for my wife, root for a great outcome. Just don't let me know you are doing it.

EllieKMAS posted 1/22/2020 10:35 AM

N, nothing I can really add except to say that it must have been really hard for you posting this. And that it takes a lot of courage to do that.

I am quietly rooting for you two. Not even necessarily for R... but just that I think both of you had a lot of anger at each other, but way more with yourselves. And I sense that both of you have started the very hard journey of forgiving yourselves. That cannot help but lead to better and healthier days for you both as individuals, and by extension happier days for your daughter.

Speaking as an adult child of an alcoholic - I get that it is not for everyone, but AA truly saved my mother's life. And by the grace of the program and her own stubbornness, she got her 7 year chip 5 days ago. Her getting and staying sober was the absolute best gift to our family. Most of all to her, but for me and my sister too. Maybe think about giving AA another shot eh?

Sending good thoughts to you and yours N.

Lostgirl410 posted 1/22/2020 10:35 AM

I can handle the gasoline a lot better then the support and genuine connections. I guess its because I don't want to let anyone down, or hurt anyone anymore. People being invested in me, and my story, scares me. I've even purposely pushed away great people on SI, just to avoid letting them down.

Is this a pattern you are working on with your IC?

Neanderthal posted 1/22/2020 10:53 AM

Is this a pattern you are working on with your IC?
It's on a list with about 50 other fucked up things I need to address lol. I also think its due to circumstance. This place is full of very hurt people that are probably more susceptible to depression and pain. I just don't want to add to it. Any other forum I've been on....I could not care less what others thought.

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