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Venting and Nightmares

Pages: 1 · 2

brokensavage posted 9/1/2019 20:46 PM

I've been gone for a while. My fiance didn't like me being on this website and the depression he attributed to it, but I've been down again anyway so I don't think it would be negative now. I'll ask him when he's awake.

So Nightmares. Does anyone else have nightmares of their OP either chasing them, attacking them, or raping them? What about anyone with experience in nightmares about You raping other people? Anyone have advice on dealing with that?

Okay now onto venting. It's been over two years and I'm still Angry. With a capital A. It's all illogical crap, but nothing makes it go away. Nothing makes anything worth it. I hate looking at my perfect fiance and he's not even worth living for anymore because I'm just too angry. Not at fiance of course. Well I mean a little, but it's not the source of the soul-burning magma that boils in my core day and night. I'm so selfish that nothing is good enough. My life is not worth living while being a cheater. It's just not worth it. This was a complete failure of the plan. When I finally gave up and agreed to cheat, it was based on the immediate plan to commit suicide afterward anyway. Now that I'm not dead... well now what? Anger. I'm not even suicidal or anything. Maybe that's the real problem here. I should be dead, but I'm just not suicidal at all. I'm just mad that I didn't know then what I know now. I'm mad I let myself be so vulnerable and couldn't even see it. I'm mad that there is Nothing, absolutely Nothing I can do to get back at OP while he lives his perfect life bragging about his conquest with all his money. And then I found out earlier this year it wasn't just him. No, my friend from my old job called because she was mad OP was spreading these 'false' rumors that he had sex with me. Turns out there was a bet at work between several guys to see who could have sex with me first. I didn't even know there were multiple people targeting me. I still don't know who I trusted that I shouldn't have. I don't think I'll ever not be angry until he's absolutely destroyed. I'll never be a good person. I have too much hate in my heart. I HATE OP. I daydream about beating him senseless. My fiance wants me to go to therapy and I'm not going. I'm just venting instead. Thanks for letting me get all this out.

S0leil posted 9/1/2019 21:21 PM

I have frequent nightmares about the AP. In many of them the AP rapes me or murders me. In others I consent to sex with the AP and then later in the dream kill myself. However, my A started off with rape so it probably makes sense that I have such dreams plus I have been sexually assaulted many times throughout my life from early childhood to adulthood. I am in therapy but it hasnít stopped the nightmares yet. I just had another nightmare last night.

I am sorry you are going through this pain. I think your fiance is right that you should seek therapy. It would help you and it would help him. If you get the right therapist it will help I mean. It has to be someone who specializes in these types of things.

I wish I could help you more. But I can think you should try the
therapy. You can do that and still vent. It never hurts to have multiple avenues to heal.

brokensavage posted 9/1/2019 21:36 PM

Thank you. Maybe I should go back to therapy. I've had 4 therapists so far and I can't say they were particularly helpful to my fiance. Two or three of them told me I should probably break up with him and that he was a problem. One told me I was manipulating him by letting him manipulate me.. (you know how complicated therapy sessions can get.) But maybe I just never found the right one. Multiple avenues do sound really good. Maybe a nightmare therapist. Again, thank you for the sound advice.

Justsomeguy posted 9/1/2019 21:50 PM

Ok. No stop sign so here I go. Why are you angry at your AP? I mmean, he's a piece of shit. It's like being angry at a leech forvsucking blood. It's basically What They do. Forgive me, but where is the anger at yourself. The POSOM did not have an agreement to be exclusive with your fiance, you did. My STBXWW did the whole "i was seduced" bullsit thing and it didn't wash with me. It's just outsourcing responsibility. I remember years ago reading Foxes Book of Martyrs. Really interesting read which basically illustrated stories where people voluntarily chose horrible torture and death over betraying their core beliefs. Your AP knocked on the door. You let him in.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/1/2019 22:45 PM

Two or three of them told me I should probably break up with him and that he was a problem. One told me I was manipulating him by letting him manipulate me.. (you know how complicated therapy sessions can get.)
Ok, I'll bite. That's a pretty loaded aside. It reads either like a legitimate red flag that you're trying to rugsweep or a convenient blameshift for why you won't go to therapy. Why do multiple ICs think you should end this relationship? And why did you choose to open your post by telling us he doesn't want you to come here, so you're sneaking on while he's asleep? Why didn't you just discuss it with him first?

I realize that my questions don't address your inquiry about rape nightmares (which sound awful, and I'm so sorry to hear it; I went through that myself years ago, but they were nothing to do with infidelity or OM). I don't think I'm threadjacking, though, because I think you put those cues there for a reason, waiting to be unpacked.

Carissima posted 9/1/2019 22:49 PM

I think the nightmares are your way of processing the trauma you went through.

Have you come to terms with, or even just acknowledged you did not cheat but were raped? (As proven by your lie detector test). Has your F ever acknowledged you were sexually attacked?

IMO you won't move forward until you deal with this major issue. If you don't want to do IC then try calling a rape helpline, they have people who can help with the misplaced guilt you have been feeling for the past couple of years.

brokensavage posted 9/2/2019 00:48 AM

Welcome. Glad to hear from you. I'm mad because I didn't know he was a leach. I thought he was my friend. I didn't know he was making bets about having sex with me knowing that I had a fiance and having a girlfriend himself. I thought that because he had a girlfriend he was a trustworthy friend to be around and couldn't have any non-platonic interest in me. He knew I had a fiance and said he just wanted to be friends. All of my other friends seemed fine (Spoiler alert, my other friends weren't safe either, but I didn't know that until later.) And I was not seduced. I never had any sexual interest in him regardless of his actions. He didn't have an agreement to be exclusive to my fiance, he had an agreement with me that he was to obey my boundaries of no touching and no sexual conversation. He broke those. I'm angry as I have a right to be. My regrets are not having the balls to tell him to stop touching me (okay, I did say that, but I didn't physically back it up by beating his ass) and not to talk to me like that. I was (and still am) a terrified little girl inside.
Yes, he knocked on the door. He said he needed a friend to talk to and was having a breakdown. I was still mad at him for breaking my trust and touching me like 2 weeks prior. I should have known better. But I wanted to be the good friend, the good person (mirror ego kibbles) and be there for him. He started telling me I wasn't there for him like I'd promised to be, etc. and I fell for my own shame. I was a bad person if I didn't let him come over and talk about his troubles. And when he started yelling at me because I wouldn't let him touch me, I shut down instead of as you put it "people voluntarily chose horrible torture and death over betraying their core beliefs." I gave up my core beliefs instead of just standing up for myself. So yeah, I'm angry at myself and OP. But I wasn't the one yelling at me because I told him not to touch me so... am I not allowed to be more angry with him? I wish I'd been angry instead of scared them. Probably a defense mechanism from that and I'm not the least tempted to let it go.

Welcome BraveSirRobin. Multiple ICs think I should end the relationship because my fiance is very controlling, doesn't like to take responsibility for his actions, and wants me to take responsibility for the actions of others. I disagree with that because he was right to be controlling. I naturally rebelled against him being very controlling, but he was right the whole time and I was too naive to see it.
I did not discuss it with him first (though I have at this time) because he is overseas at a stressful job where he often goes without adequate sleep. His rest is very important and telling him could wait. He understood and appreciated the sleep. That particular opening was to explain why I've been gone so long. I wasn't stable enough to be here. If he notices I'm getting too emotional again, he may ask me to take another break from this site, though really he doesn't like ordering me around at all. It's against his principles unless it's for my safety. (He's a weird balance of controlling and avoiding giving opinions, ha ha).
I apologize to you on this, but I don't understand what you mean by not going to therapy being rugsweeping and blameshifting. I think therapy makes things worse. Specifically, I don't know how to deal with the therapists trying to convince me I am a r--- victim while my fiance is dealing with my cheating. How does that help? It's so confusing.
It's in the opening post, so I don't consider it threadjacking either, though that was really just a vent. I needed to clear my head without dumping on my fiance, but I understand no one can fix anything so I didn't have an expectation of replies, but I appreciate your time.

Welcome. Thank you for coming.
Stupid nightmares, it's been two years. How is it not processed by now? That was rhetorical; it's obvious I'm making zero progress on processing anything.
My F instead of acknowledging any sexual attack has acknowledged that the situation was "not
100% you're fault." Beyond that he demands that I clarify things, remember things from when I may or may not have been conscious, and if I was really attacked, I would have pressed charges regardless of the polygraphs, so I must be lying about something.

Have you come to terms with, or even just acknowledged you did not cheat but were raped?
That's the thing though. It's not that I did NOT cheat, but was raped. It's that I did Both at the SAME TIME. My fiance told me explicitly to never have any men over at the apartment because he didn't feel like he could trust them. I brushed him off as a paranoid, overprotective mother bear and completely ignored his concerns and feelings. The moment I put my conflicting personal beliefs (wanting to be a good person and good friend) above his needs (me being safe and keeping his boundaries), I had Already cheated. I had already broken his trust. That was the cheating right there. And Then OP went and ignored My boundaries (ha ha, karma is so quick, huh?) and everything I said, and then I gave up in a suicidal fit and gave consent. So I cheated twice here and was taken advantage of in the middle. I don't even blame my brain for the nightmares. I can't process **** even in two years. On the bright side, I don't trust anyone and no one will ever get to be in a position to hurt me like that ever again. Also, I keep a sword by my bed now. I'll stab you if you don't leave me alone.
Does a sword count as dealing with it? I tried calling a rape hotline, but I was too scared to go to the meetings. How can I, a cheater, go in with the real rape victims? I can't show my face there. No one beat me in a dark alley. No one hit me, or threw me. He was completely gentle while he held me down and even asked if he was hurting me. I couldn't even punch him. It's not misplaced guilt. Would you not feel guilty if you had the power to stop the worst thing that had happened in your life and you were too scared to do it? If all you had to do was stand up and scream: DON'T YOU F***** TOUCH ME! And instead all you did was quietly say, "Stop. I don't want any of this." You just needed to punch one A-hole and instead you just quietly, sedately, politely, asked him to stop. If you had EVERY power in your hand to stop a bad situation and you were too chicken-sh** to do it. You wouldn't feel guilty over that your whole life? It's not like wearing a short skirt in a dark alley. I just literally lied down and gave up. I couldn't even go through with killing myself. It's the ultimate failure. Sorry for the long reply, but there's a reason for this guilt and a reason I'm here.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/2/2019 01:24 AM

Oh, hon. ((hug))

It took me a while to piece together your backstory, and I'm still a little confused. Please don't take any of this as judging; I just want to be sure I understand. A male friend came to your place. Your fiance didn't want you to have men over. You let him in anyway, trying to be supportive even though he had previously attempted unwanted sexual contact. The friend once again made a pass that he knew you didn't want. You said no. He didn't listen and intimidated you. Eventually, you gave up and gave some kind of consent (verbal? nonverbal?). The friend interpreted the conclusion of this interaction as consensual. Therefore, you see it as cheating because you let the guy in the door, but rape because you said no, but cheating again because you said yes, or because you feel like you just didn't fight hard enough. Your fiance sees it as cheating, though "not 100% your fault."

Do I have this right?

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 8:15 AM, September 2nd (Monday)]

ibonnie posted 9/2/2019 07:47 AM

I'm a BS. About two years or so out, and I still have horrible nightmares. Another poster on here suggested searching sleep music on YouTube. There are like 8 or 10 hour long videos of music that's supposed to be healing, or help you sleep deeply. To help your body heal or your mind cleanse itself or to help your chakras align.

It sounds hippy dippy, but since listening to them, I sleep much deeper and don't notice or remember my dreams as much. Maybe that will help you, too?

Also, melatonin? Although for some people, I've heard it causes very vivid dreams. For me, it makes me sleep very, very, very deeply, but I need to get exactly 8 hours of sleep or I wake up incredibly groggy the next day.

S0leil posted 9/2/2019 10:01 AM

brokensavage, I can relate a great deal to your anger at yourself and at the AP as in some ways it is similar to mine. I too thought I was being a good friend to the AP. I had previously been with the AP for 13 years (from middle school sweethearts to marriage). It went from what I thought was a real life fairy tale of soulmates to emotional and physical abuse as well as infidelity (I was a BS who went through many DDays, a lot of gaslighting, and even an OC while with him). When I finally left, I didnít look back. I severed all ties and started a new life. Almost 15 years passed before the AP reached out and by this time I was married to a good man (my BH) and had children. The AP claimed to have ďfound GodĒ and seemed to have fully transformed from who he used to be. It seemed believable to me. I was glad that he had turned himself around, and if I am being honest with myself, I was also glad that he had apologized. Not because I had any desire to be with him (I didnít at all), but because I felt that him acknowledging and apologizing for the pain heíd put me through in the past gave me closure. I had no boundaries with him those first three weeks of messaging and talking because I saw no need. Even the thought of anything romantic with him after all he had done to me in the past was laughable. Flirting? Sex talk? Impossible. There was not an inkling of interest in any of that, so it didnít even enter my mind.

My BH didnít trust the AP because of how badly I had been treated in the past and asked me to stop communicating with the AP. I complied willingly. But one day the AP called me out of the blue with a dire ďfamily emergencyĒ he needed my help with. Iím a people pleaser and a fixer, so without even thinking I flung into action. I went straight there despite my BH having asked me to cut contact. I left work and everything and drove to the address the AP gave me. Face to face with him for the first time in years, I felt no sense of love or attraction. He was just a person I used to know. But he was noticeably moved when he saw me. I ignored it though, because I was there to support him.

Long story short, he slipped a drug into my drink, and later, when I was unable to speak clearly or move my limbs, he proceeded to rape me. Like your AP, I wasnít in a dark alley. He didnít choke or slap me. He was gentle. But I didnít want it.

After it was over I too planned to commit suicide. But then I couldnít face the fact that I had been raped AGAIN. I had been raped many times as a child and Iíd also been raped as a teen and an adult. But it had been many, many years since I had been a victim. I had been safe for a long time. I couldnít go back to being that scared, helpless girl any longer. So I had to take it back. Take control. By choosing to have sex with the AP after the rape, I felt like I was taking my power back. You canít take it from me if Iím giving it to you. Iím in charge.

As you can see, I have a lot of issues, which is why Iím in therapy.

My BH also has to deal with the fact that I was raped AND that I cheated. But my therapist says that while he is entitled to his hurt and anger over the cheating part, I am entitled to support and being believed about the rape part. My BH had me take a polygraph and I passed it, so he knows Iím not lying about anything. But he is still hurt that I betrayed him and he is hurt that he couldnít protect me.

Your fiance needs to support you as a rape survivor. I realize being both an individual who was raped and who defied your fianceís boundaries and trust puts you in a different position than many other waywards. I understand. But that doesnít negate your rape. Itís NOT your fault. You MUST get help and support for what happened to you. You ARE a ďrealĒ rape victim/survivor regardless of the circumstances of the rape. You deserve to be in whatever group and access whatever services that can help you heal. Youíre no less a person who experienced rape than anyone else in that room. You deserve an opportunity to heal yourself. Itís not just about your fianceís pain. Yours matters too.

Iamtrash posted 9/2/2019 10:21 AM

My dreams have shifted. But at the start of this (right after d-day), I used to have frequent dreams about AP and other involved parties showing up in my life. Iíd try to avoid them and get away but they were always there. Always finding me. I was afraid BH would think I invited them. That we were still involved. I was almost being stalked and there was no escape.

My dreams have now shifted. No more AP, but frequent dreams that BH is plotting revenge. That he is going to harm me for all the harm Iíve caused him.

Idk what your current relationship is with your BS, but it helps me to talk to him about the dreams. He gives good feedback and itís helpful to me. Itís just a dream, but sometimes he can help me sort through other meanings. Or reassure the falseness of the dream.

I also detest the thought of my AP. I used him for the emotional piece I felt I was lacking (complete bullshit. I would have had it in my marriage the whole time. I didnít try or communicate.). In hindsight, he used me for much more. I was a solution to his life problems. When he realized he was never going to have the same meaning to me that I had to him, he turned quickly. He put on a good show. Hardworking. Capable. Good father. He can paint a picture that anyone would believe. I believed him. Once he turned, I started reaching out to those closest to him. It was lies. All lies. Heís completely dependent on others to survive. 10 month long distance affair, knew him before all of this. Had no reason to believe he wasnít the person he made himself out to be. The point of me saying this, donít always believe what you think you know about AP. Just because it seems like he has this great life doesnít mean that he does. Also, even if he has money, clearly his life is lacking something if he actively participated in an affair. As a WS, you did wrong. That doesnít mean the AP is without blame.

Please consider therapy. I hated the thought of going, but it really has helped. Itís too much to work through your anger with only your BS as support.

brokensavage posted 9/2/2019 15:25 PM

No, that about sums it up. Much better than my attempt to explain it really. And it was verbal consent when I gave up. I remember that part rather clearly while a lot of that night was fuzzy (sleep deprivation) and it was the moment I had decided I was going to commit suicide. I told him nothing mattered anymore and he could do whatever he wanted, in just about those words. He actually hesitated at that point (maybe he was confused I'd stopped arguing?) and asked if I was sure and started acting concerned. And I just lied there and kept repeating nothing matters anymore. Oh, and don't forget I was completely aroused the whole time even though I didn't want to have sex. That's an important part of cheating. Even if I didn't want to have sex mentally, my body was telling OP the opposite and he would know because he held me down and checked. That's an important part of my fiance's understanding. Arousal = wanted sex regardless of what you say. What I say is not as important as what other people Think I want.
Now you have it perfect.

Welcome; thank you for being here. I don't care how hippy it sounds, I'd try it. I might even try yoga on that note.

I offered to take a polygraph and passed it. Then I took another and passed it, but the second was for my personal vendetta. The first one I took I refused to give OP's name because I had some illogical fear that if he somehow found out I'd taken a polygraph about him, he would come after me. So I took a second one with his name on it to get over that fear. My fiance doesn't care. He knew I was telling the truth about everything on the polygraph before I took it. It just doesn't help things make sense to him. If I didn't want to have sex, why didn't I stop him? Why didn't I hit him? Why did I let him in the door if I already knew he had sexual intentions? (Fiance's questions; I made OP swear on his father's grave that he was only coming over because he genuinely needed support. I thought I was being soooo cautious. Fiance would have known better.)

Fiance's right though. It IS MY FAULT. I hate that, but it's true. I trusted myself and my own judgement more than my fiance's and I was dead wrong. And I should have known that since I already knew he grew up being a creep himself while I was milking goats in the middle of nowhere. I knew I didn't have his capacity to judge people's character and I decided my judgement was better anyway. I got what I deserved really.
I don't belong in a room with rape victims. I belong in a boxing ring with OP because I don't feel like I can ever move past this without facing him the way I was scared to back then. I'm still scared now, but that's why I need to. I can't walk away and leave him thinking he's dominated me and won everything. I want him to walk back in with a broken nose too ashamed to talk about what really happened. I want him fired so I know he's not harassing or targeting anyone else over there. I want things I can never have, but I don't think a rape help group is gonna help unless they offer martial arts. I'd go to a boxing coach for therapy.


Welcome. I'm more concerned about being stalked IRL. I reported someone yesterday at work after they came up to me to complain about how I do my job, demand I make special concessions for them, and tell me they would be back to talk to me again. They're now banned from the premises when I'm there. My bus driver grabbed me, put his arm around my shoulder, and wanted to know where I lived while he tried to walk home with me. I called my fiance, gave him our emergency phrase ('don't forget to check on the dog' -- obviously we don't have one), and made up a story about how I'm not actually going home because I need something from the store. Even knowing my fiance was coming to pick me up and take me to the alleged store, he waited, but let me go. My fiance showed up, armed, and demanded to know what the guy was doing. That bus driver barely speaks to me now, thank God, but Fiance was mad that I still couldn't stand up for myself. That was several months ago and I couldn't even tell That guy to let go of me and get lost.
My fiance and I are in a relationship where we pretend to be engaged, but have no actual plans for marriage and aren't sure we want to be married at all. It's a matter of pride for Fiance to call me his fiancee. I told him about the most recent dreams. He had no comment and changed the subject.
I hope OP doesn't have a great life. I hope his girlfriend dumped him and that he gets fired soon if he isn't already. I hope he finds no rest until he really understands how horrible the things he's done are and he pays penance for every single one. I might do therapy when my fiance gets back from overseas. Right now making it to the only therapist who is safe would be nearly impossible and expensive. I need that money so I can visit my fiance. Therapy is not as important as getting to see him. I might try going to the free yoga sessions in my city. I have heard yoga is therapeutic.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/2/2019 18:13 PM

At the risk of scaring you off, I have to say that your fiance rings all kinds of alarm bells for me. He has you convinced that you have no personal judgment, so you believe you need to rely on his. When you do stand up for yourself, or implement your "safe" plan as you did with the bus driver, he is unhappy that you needed the plan. He, a man, needs to be armed to tell the bus driver to step off, but you were supposed to handle the guy alone? Your fiance cultivates fear in you and then gets angry at your timidity. I think there's a reason, many reasons, that a series of counselors have concluded he's not a healthy partner for you, while you describe him as "perfect."

Now. No means no. Your rapist -- not "friend," rapist -- knew you didn't consent, and pressured you. Intimidating someone into agreement is not gaining consent. Your arousal is a reaction of your physical body, not consent. For your own healing, you need to understand this. Letting the guy in the door wasn't the smartest thing you ever did, but it was not an invitation to rape, and it deeply disturbs me that you put so much value on the opinion of someone who believes it does.

A mixed martial arts program may help you feel powerful, which I think is something you deeply need. It would be good for you to feel physically strong and capable of self defense. It's not going to fix your nightmares, though. That's your subconscious screaming its unhealed pain and self-loathing at you. The part of you that feels violated by the rapist is at war with the part that believes you aided and abetted him. Gently, you need so much help.

Finally, there's this:

I've had 4 therapists so far and I can't say they were particularly helpful to my fiance.
Your therapist isn't there to help your fiance. They are there to help you. Step 1 is understanding that there's a difference.

brokensavage posted 9/2/2019 23:02 PM

Thank you for coming back. If I may say, it's not that I don't Have personal judgement, just that mine sucks. I don't think Fiance has done anything to 'convince' me of that, I proved it to myself with my own stupidity. I seriously thought it was a good idea, in fact the only acceptable reaction, to invite a man over who had already tried to get me to have sex with him before, because not taking care of him would make me a bad person. How can I ever trust my judgement after that? It's obvious I brushed off my Fiance's judgement Before that; and often, but he was right and I was wrong. And he proved it with another "friend" I would have never guessed. My fiance has very keen perception of people that I doubt I'll ever have. I have to trust him. It would make more sense if you could meet him, but he honestly just wants to keep me safe. He was mad I couldn't stand up for myself because he knew he was getting deployed and couldn't be there to protect me. He asked me what I would have done if he had been gone and I had no answer. He was just reacting out of fear for me. What if someone tries to follow me home from work tomorrow? No one is here to save me. And yes, my fiance was armed, but I'm the more dangerous of the two of us. Technically, I'm the one with better martial training in self-defense and I'm actually the better shooter. I KNEW in my mind how to defend myself; my whole problem is that I just shut down when the moment comes to DO something.
No one is perfect, but despite knowing I'm a cheater, my Fiance still loves me and sees all the good in the world in me when I feel diminished. He doesn't understand how I can even see anything negative about myself at all except being a cheater. He still stands firm that other than that I'm the most perfect person he's met. Forgive me if I still don't want to give up on him. When he talks about me being a cheater, it makes a lot more sense than when I do. I boiled it down to those two moments of actual cheating, but there is a lot of background in my previous interactions with OP that make it illogical for me to have ever trusted him again, so Fiance's understanding makes sense and I really do value his opinion. In fact, I'm tied to it. I can't change my opinion if he doesn't change his, ha ha.
I worry nothing will help though. I'm looking at a kickboxing class in my city now. It has very difficult hours, but it might be worth it. I have been back to working out after a back problem (also from working out) for a week now, and I want to do more.
Maybe if I could just fight back in my nightmares instead of running away, that would be enough for me. I like dreams where I'm fighting. Those are my favorite. I wonder why my subconscious and conscious mind are so different.

The part of you that feels violated by the rapist is at war with the part that believes you aided and abetted him.
I did aid and abet him, so of course I'm at war. The question is how I win! My forces are scattered and at odds with each other while I have enemy troops on two sides. I want to destroy the enemies. How do I do it? I can't find any peace to heal myself while OP's still roaming free of consequence! How do real rape victims deal with that? I can't imagine. I'm so angry and I'm the one who got myself into it all.

RocketRaccoon posted 9/3/2019 02:44 AM

Hey BSavage,

'Good' to see that you are back. Good in that you are trying to work things out, rather than rugsweep. Kudos for that.

knowing I'm a cheater

Okay, you recognise this. Yes, our past defines us, but the main thing is, did you learn from it? If you did learn from it, and are taking steps for it not to happen again, then embrace the label, but not to let it take over the entire definition of yourself. It has become a piece of you, and you are the only person who can decided how big a piece that is.

From what you have written, it seems that you have a 'flight' response, regardless of your technical skills. This is reinforced by the negative self-image you have. The flight/freeze response becomes stronger with every negative self-though you have.

The question is how I win!

You know your forces are scattered, so what do you do about it? Gather your forces! That cannot be done if you are unsure of yourself. Who would follow an unsure leader into a battle? Who would heed the clarion call to muster the forces if the leader has no self-confidence?

I can't find any peace to heal myself while OP's still roaming free of consequence!

..... and here is one of the issues you need to resolve. Why are you letting the OM stop you from healing? Why give any more thought to the OM? You are looking in the wrong direction if you want to heal for both yourself and your Fiance. Please 'let go' (for now) of the OM.

You are angry/frustrated at yourself, we get that. You might be playing the 'what if' game in your head (e.g. what if I stalk the OM and do major harm to him, what if I had kicked the OM in the gonads and see him squirm, etc etc etc). The 'what if' game can be entertaining, but it does not help you solve your current issue. In fact, it is holding you back.

Heal yourself first....

brokensavage posted 9/3/2019 09:35 AM

Yes, our past defines us, but the main thing is, did you learn from it?

Of course. I want to keep believing that people aren't out to get me, but now I know better. You can't trust people without taking risks, which I knew. And now I know that the risk often isn't worth it.
then embrace the label, but not to let it take over the entire definition of yourself

There is no point in that. Like you said, only I can define how big that part is, and to me it is Everything. There is no worth to a life as a cheater. There is nothing I can do in a life as a cheater that will make anything better. If I become a doctor and cure cancer my life would not be worth living--to me. To other people I can still have value, but to myself I will be useless. My value of myself was based largely on being a good person. That is gone. I can't have value because it would be unbalanced. There isn't a value equal to cheating. If I save all of humanity, cure AIDS, end poverty, and eradicate discrimination, it wouldn't be enough. One negative would undo all of that and it's already here. That's something my fiance can't understand, but it's vastly more important that I Not do bad things, than that I do good things.
flight/freeze response becomes stronger with every negative self-though you have

Good to know. I will expect freeze responses to continue until morale improves. I will endeavor to avoid all situations that could cause this since I know I have no defense. I don't hope for any positive self-thoughts, so I will avoid situations that require them.
Gather your forces! That cannot be done if you are unsure of yourself.

Thank you. Now that I know it cannot be done, I should stop trying.
Why are you letting the OM stop you from healing?
Because trying to ignore his role and move forward without addressing it hasn't worked so far. Ignoring the core of rage burning inside me doesn't make it go away. Also, he's not OM. I said OP for a reason. Please don't call him a 'man' he's not one.
You are looking in the wrong direction if you want to heal for both yourself and your Fiance.

I see now. You misunderstood my intent. I am not quite looking for healing for myself, and certainly not for my fiance. I want revenge. Healing is impossible, so why would I pursue that? At least, what I imagine healing to be: being okay with yourself, having value, finding worth in helping other people, finding things worth living for, recognizing you can become a better person, actually wanting to be a better person. I already know I don't care about becoming a better person because it's not worth it. I don't care to be a better person if I'm a cheater. It won't undo it, and so it has no value. I already know I don't have the heart to heal because I don't want to. I'm not willing to pursue empty goals I don't even want. I pursue empty goals I do want. I get nothing from destroying OP, but it's something I want. It won't help me heal, but what would help anyway? At least I might be able to die in peace. That could perhaps be worth it.
Heal yourself first....
With what? For what? There's nothing in this life that is worth healing. I would rather get rid of the rage. Peace could be better than healing. It would be nice to just find out.

BraveSirRobin posted 9/3/2019 21:46 PM

Can you explore why you come to a forum that's populated by cheaters to say that in your view, there is nothing a cheater can do in any aspect of our lives that will heal or redeem the fact that we cheated? That trying is utterly pointless? Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended; I'm a combination of nonplussed and genuinely curious. The whole premise of this site, which was founded by a BS and a WS, is that healing is possible for both. If you don't believe that, why on earth would you be interested in our advice?

RocketRaccoon posted 9/3/2019 22:10 PM

There is nothing I can do in a life as a cheater that will make anything better. If I become a doctor and cure cancer my life would not be worth living--to me. To other people I can still have value, but to myself I will be useless. My value of myself was based largely on being a good person. That is gone. I can't have value because it would be unbalanced. There isn't a value equal to cheating. If I save all of humanity, cure AIDS, end poverty, and eradicate discrimination, it wouldn't be enough. One negative would undo all of that and it's already here. That's something my fiance can't understand, but it's vastly more important that I Not do bad things, than that I do good things.

Why do you feel this way? is it because you feel that you let yourself down? That you betrayed yourself also?

Thank you. Now that I know it cannot be done, I should stop trying.

Why do you say that? You may not be able to do it by yourself right this moment, so let others help you.

With what? For what? There's nothing in this life that is worth healing. I would rather get rid of the rage. Peace could be better than healing. It would be nice to just find out.

By first getting yourself a good counsellor. The pain that you are keeping inside you will only destroy you on the long run.

On the long run, you will need to learn how to forgive yourself. You do not have to forgive yourself right this minute, but you will need it to find the peace you are looking for.

Am not too sure how open you are to it, but if you are, it might be good to try doing some meditation. It can help clear the mind. From what you have been posting, it looks like your mind is in a whirlwind right now. Everything is jumbled, and that is making you more anxious. You will need to calm down, and you will find your thoughts will settle better.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 10:11 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]

brokensavage posted 9/3/2019 23:45 PM

I can certainly explain. I came here to vent as explained in the opening post. I made a clear distinction in categories of things I think I could get advice for here (nightmares) and things that I know none of you can fix (venting). It is not that I think there is nothing A cheater can do in their lives to heal. There are plenty of people who can live with that. Just like there are people who can live with a cheater. And for some betrayed spouses, cheating is just a dealbreaker no matter what. For me, cheating is a dealbreaker with myself. May you all go on to find healing and live happy lives. I'm not interested. If I find healing, it's because I tripped over something and fell on it. My goals are still focused on the anger.

I do not know if it is Because I let myself down though that in itself is an accurate assumption. Indeed, I care more that I betrayed myself than about my betrayal of Fiance. Not that I don't care at all, but I acknowledge my perverse priorities.
Let others help me become sure of myself? In what way? Despite being a simple suggestion, I sense there is more than I can glean at first glance in that. How do you even know if you are sure of yourself? I'm sure I'm a cheater if that counts?
The pain I'm keeping inside will destroy me in the long run? I'm pretty sure I'm just languishing in prior ruin really. It is not as though anything has caused further damage.
If forgiving me is the only way to peace, then peace can keep its distance and mind its own business. I want nothing to do with forgiveness and I've never bothered asking my fiance for any either. I am disgusted by the idea. It is against my battered, mangled principles.
I meditate regularly. It frequently culminates in boundless anger while breathing slowly.

In other news, no nightmares last night. Hurray!

Chaos posted 9/5/2019 09:36 AM

BS here - I have nightmares about AP a lot. Various forms. In my dreams - she's doing one of the following.

* stalking me
* Being mistaken for me
* I'm being called her name
* She's always someplace I am
* I see her car everywhere
* She's my nurse, waitress, employee, check out girl at Target, etc.
* She's in pictures around the house instead of me
* She's still calling/messaging WH
* She is at my daughter's events

I could go on but you all get the picture.

These come and go in frequency. But I still have them. At times I wake up crying. At times, I reach to WH and other's I roll away from him. Some times, I get up and search his phone. Sometimes I weep silently. I'm always out of sorts for a while every time I have one.

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