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ibonnie posted 6/28/2019 10:31 AM

I know it's difficult to go no contact with someone you love and care about, BUT what I've never understood is how anyone can expect their WS to go NC with their AP, if they're not prepared to do the same.

No, I don’t thing a LTR or marriage is the same as an affair, but how many WS's think they've found twu wuv/their soulmate/the person they were *really* supposed to be with, but they're still deep in the affair fog (and I know this is a controversial theory) and think they can somehow have their cake and eat it, too?

Whether or not you believe their feelings are real, or that a four-month long PA with some really questionable AP can compare in any way with a 15-year marriage to you and a shared family doesn't matter. What matters is that you're giving your WS a choice -- NC with me or... what? I'll continue to let you sleep over/have dinner with the family/call me up and moan and groan about the situation you put us all in because you love us both, but you're so confused?

Or would it be more effective to say, NC with AP or NC with me. No concessions, no bargaining, no allowing slip ups, starting now. If they slip up once and break NC with their AP, you go NC with them immediately -- no sex, no phone calls, no texts, block them on social media. Communicate via email when it comes to kids and finances. Have the kids ready to go when WS comes to pick them up. Have a friend or family member stay with them for pickup/drop offs if you can. Talk to a lawyer and file to separate or divorce immediately.

If they're remorseful and serious about changing, they'll drop their AP, and move heaven and Earth to show you they're working on becoming a safe partner for you. If they're not remorseful, they can live happily ever after with their garbage AP, and you can use the space to work on detaching and healing yourself.

How can you expect your WS to have NC with an AP if you're not willing to do the same with your WS if they won't go NC with their AP?

pearlamici posted 6/28/2019 10:39 AM

Agreed - I think that is what the 180 is all about - WS has a choice, and if it takes them more than half a second to figure it out then it's NC (or hard 180 - excepting kids/finances etc). I use to get angry thinking how it only took my WH a year to go from "I'll never cheat on my wife" to a PA. Then it dawned on my one day - it took less than 12 hours for him to throw AP under the bus. He told her it was over the next morning and never said another word to her.

BluesPower posted 6/28/2019 10:47 AM

ibonnie, it is hard to understand exactly what your position or question is, or maybe I am not reading right.

However, in a marriage, if you consider reconciliation, how could it be any other way than NC with the AP?

How would anyone tolerate less? (and I know many have, but not me, ever)

Am I understanding your position right?

hcsv posted 6/28/2019 10:58 AM

This is why i am divorced after 40 years together. One of my stipulations for any type of reconciliation was NC with her. He told me she was his friend and always would be.

I told him he was going to have a friend and not a wife because I wasnt going to be the third person in my own marriage or 35 years. see ya

We have been NC since and his (girl)friend is still married to her husband. His three adult children wont speak to him.

so he lost everything for nothing, well, he does have a friend. LOL

ibonnie posted 6/28/2019 11:38 AM

BluePower, sorry if I wasn't clear. I know hindsight is 20/20, but it drives me nuts when new posters come here and they clearly want to R/save their marriage, but their WS isn't giving them anything to work with. Lots of words, no actions. They keep finding things that don't add up, but they listen to the excuses, or they use their children as an excuse as to why they haven't kicked their WS out yet, meanwhile none of the WS's actions show any concern for their children...

And then after months of being treated horribly and being in false R situations, they finally stand up for themselves. They could've saved themselves a whole lot of heartache and had a much better outcome if they took a firm stance post d-day.

And that's when their WS wakes up to reality and realizes what they're losing, but by then it's too late.

Regardless of whether someone decides to R or D, I think they're better off taking a firm -- AP or me, decide now, and if their WS breaks NC serious consequences/boundaries should be enforced immediately.

hdybrh posted 6/28/2019 11:50 AM

It's a fair point but regardless of how much good advice you get, the first couple months past dday nobody thinks straight. Firm stance? How about just not crying and actually eating something. Just saying it takes months to feel like you're on firm ground again.

Without a doubt NC is critical. But like an addict going cold turkey on the AP may not happen for some. There are examples of people who slip once or twice on NC, tell their spouse immediately and still R successfully or WS who just don't get it as you allude to. It takes a few months to see if the work is really being done.

And practically speaking, especially with kids, even if you D you can't go NC with a WS.

No doubt your overall point of the typical pattern of false R and unremorseful WS is quite true, as well as the absolute necessity of NC. But like most things YMMV and it depends.

[This message edited by hdybrh at 11:50 AM, June 28th (Friday)]

hcsv posted 6/28/2019 12:00 PM

We all find our voices at different times. I didnt find my voice until 9 months after DDAy. Once I found my voice, I stopped talking. LOL

Evertrying posted 6/28/2019 12:11 PM

But you have to remember you are dealing with an "addict". It's really easy to tell a drunk or a drug addict to stop now or else, but the reality is, most of the time they can't stop cold turkey. Especially those that "have feelings" for their AP.

Right after dday, I heard every excuse in the book about how he had to "wean" himself off of the A. Yes, all bullshit but in reality I am sure a lot of BS's hear this from their WW spouses. And/or they lie and tell them there is NC but they are still engaged in the A.

My H was also dealing with the fact that he involved someone else in our lives, though she knew damn well he was married and was a willing participant, he couldn't figure out how to get his ass out of the mess he made and come out looking like a saint.

He was caught. He didn't confess so he wasn't prepared to completely go NC right after he was busted. He wanted to, but knew it was going to be hard to give up the "groovy feelings" he got from the A.

My H tried to be a cake eater for 2 weeks after dday. He tried to control and maintain the two relationships long enough to get quit his job (AP was a married COW. He had already been looking for another job months before he caught him) and then he was going to ghost her. Another chicken shit move, but that's how he was going to get away from it. He said the A "had run it's course".

I had finally had enough and deep down he knew he needed to go NC and end it. He did and that was the end of his A.

Anyway, we are almost 2 yrs from dday and working on R. We still have a long way to go, but he has pulled his head out of his butt and cleaned the shit out of his eyes and can finally see the A for what it was.

[This message edited by Evertrying at 12:13 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

Luna10 posted 6/28/2019 12:38 PM

I agree. Hence I told my WH me or her. He said “you” and implemented NC with the AP. Or so he said. He was a remorseful (although foggy at times) WH from what I read here. He didn’t waver. He didn’t pine for his AP. He didn’t look undecided. He only looked like a WH who wanted his marriage but couldn’t understand my pain. Only to find out 4 months later that he kept in contact (hence why he didn’t pine for the AP). He actually confessed to it himself not knowing how to actually get out of the situation by himself without me finding out.

I very rarely see BSes here (maybe I’m not reading the same threads) that they are accepting the A to continue. The majority are saying “stop” and the majority of WH follow the same path: they say they stopped only to break NC later.

Unfortunately if you go and read the ow posts on other forums I’m still to find out a case where dday happened and they truly went NC.

But you are right, a BS needs to demand “me or her/him” and shouldn’t accept any less. Weather true NC happens... that’s a different story.

You didn’t have false R because you went NC with your WH (I believe he was undecided? I forgot the reason for it). However his affair still played out before he committed to R just like in my WH’s case. The difference was the level of deceit. My WH wasn’t willing to lose neither me nor his AP hence he continued his deceit. In your case your WH was honest, if they would all be I believe there would be less cases of false R. But we’re expecting a liar to be honest on dday.

OwningItNow posted 6/28/2019 12:44 PM

But you have to remember you are dealing with an "addict". It's really easy to tell a drunk or a drug addict to stop now or else, but the reality is, most of the time they can't stop cold turkey.

When I first read this, I thought you were talking about the betrayed spouse as they often come across as addicted to their WS, hysterical bonding being just one example.

Sometimes I cannot tell who is more addicted to whom: the WS to the AP or the BS to the WS. I assume that is ibonnie's point as I am faced with the same frustration as I read here. Lately I have realized that I am going to need to take a long break from SI because I simply cannot read case after case after case of unhealthy BS attachment (I cannot call it love). Yes, I walked the path and I remember, but I am losing my ability to stomach the--can I say "self-inflicted"?--pain of the BS by remaining with an obviously unremorseful or abusive WS. I know it's me. I know that I need to step away. I come here and try to triage whatever I find, whoever is hurting badly. But seeing that many BS are their own worst enemy as they fight for love instead of against abuse is more than my heart can sometimes take.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:50 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

OwningItNow posted 6/28/2019 12:49 PM

Also, it is extremely counterintuitive to leave a relationship you want. Most if not all BS find that logic absolutely absurd, and yet we all eventually understand the truth of it. The other counter reality? He who cares least controls the R.

Crazy how much we learn about healthy relationships here.

Evertrying posted 6/28/2019 13:13 PM

Sometimes I cannot tell who is more addicted to whom: the WS to the AP or the BS to the WS

I wouldn't call it addicted (BS to WS) I would call it complete shock and then the BS scrambles to hold on to the life they had always known.

In the beginning I didn't know all the right things to do. I WAS IN SHOCK. And then I came here, completely broken hearted and though I read through what I should be doing, (IC, 180, NC, etc...) When you can barely get out of bed and function, the last thing you want or can do is all the things you should do!

It takes time. You have to process and get out of "Holy shit what just happened" mode, and then you may be dealing with a WS that "wuvs their AP"? Jesus. that's a lot of SHIT to eat in one sitting.

Most BS's don't know what or how to do anything right after dday accept continue to breathe in and out. It took me MONTHS, and I mean MONTHS to learn to function again and then knew (though he didn't do it in front of me) that my H was going through A withdrawls. It was a shit show of Epic proportion for awhile. And for me, my H had never been an asshole in all the years we have been married. I woke up to a man I no longer knew.

In the end my H knew his A was not what he wanted and his AP wasn't his "soul mate". She was simply a "casualty" of his brokenness. I don't feel sorry for her as she knew what she was getting into and she was just as fucked up as he was.

I am in MUCH better head space now and so is my H and our marriage. Still working on it, but there is hope I feel.

DevastatedDee posted 6/28/2019 13:24 PM

I wouldn't call it addicted (BS to WS) I would call it complete shock and then the BS scrambles to hold on to the life they had always known.

I agree, it's especially true when you really and truly thought that you had a good marriage with a good person before DDay. The brain doesn't rewire itself overnight to see the person you thought you were with as the person they just showed you they actually are. It eats at your sanity. You aren't capable of knowing up from down for a while. It takes time.

For me, it really was like waking up one day and finding that my dog was a cat and had always been a cat even though I remember him barking and walking him on a leash and doing all the dog things. One day I wake up and notice the litterbox and he's meowing and I have to make my brain understand that he has always been a cat and that my memories are false. I think all BSs are mentally ill for a period of time and it isn't our fault. We've suffered reality-altering brain damage. We are the least likely to be rational and measured than at any other time in our lives. Most of us have come out on the other side of that insanity, so yes, it's easy to look at someone who is clearly in a situation that they should leave and get frustrated about that. I remember what it was like, though. It was the closest thing to hell that I've ever experienced.

Evertrying posted 6/28/2019 13:38 PM

The brain doesn't rewire itself overnight to see the person you thought you were with as the person they just showed you they actually are

I agree with this to a point. Yes, my H did a shitty thing, made horrible choices and decisions that were wrong, but I don't believe that is the person he ACTUALLY is. It was something he was actually capable of doing.

We are all human and sometimes do the wrong thing, but I think we are also capable of change. I try not to let something bad define us as a bad person for the rest of our lives. Lord knows I have made my own bad choices but I also know I learned from them and would never make them again.

I think with WS's, if they are truly remorseful, stay NC and change, I can't see labeling them as a shit-bag forever. It's called forgiveness. BUT, with that said, there are some out there that do not change, are serial cheaters, and show no remorse. That is who THEY are.

KingRat posted 6/28/2019 14:01 PM

Or would it be more effective to say, NC with AP or NC with me. No concessions, no bargaining, no allowing slip ups, starting now.

I agree. I don't draw lines in the sand; I only draw them in wet concrete. Honestly, I really believe its best to not issue any ultimatums unless you are 110% sure you can follow through.

I know it's cliche, however, being fair, firm, and consistent is essential to being a strong leader. The BS must lead the R. Leading doesn't mean being controlling or making your spouse feel inferior. Leading is simply, "Hey, I'm going this way. You can follow me, but this is where I am going." Here's the catch: You have to accept that they may not follow you, and if you change your course to follow them, you risk arriving at a destination you do not want to be.

[This message edited by KingRat at 2:03 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

BluesPower posted 6/28/2019 14:23 PM

BluePower, sorry if I wasn't clear. I know hindsight is 20/20, but it drives me nuts when new posters come here and they clearly want to R/save their marriage, but their WS isn't giving them anything to work with. Lots of words, no actions. They keep finding things that don't add up, but they listen to the excuses, or they use their children as an excuse as to why they haven't kicked their WS out yet, meanwhile none of the WS's actions show any concern for their children...
And then after months of being treated horribly and being in false R situations, they finally stand up for themselves. They could've saved themselves a whole lot of heartache and had a much better outcome if they took a firm stance post d-day.

And that's when their WS wakes up to reality and realizes what they're losing, but by then it's too late.

Regardless of whether someone decides to R or D, I think they're better off taking a firm -- AP or me, decide now, and if their WS breaks NC serious consequences/boundaries should be enforced immediately.

I get you. And as you can see with several posts after the one you just wrote me, that is the reason why.

I guess that some people are in shock, and I can go with that reason to an extent.

However, lots of people are just inexperienced and kind of insecure. Plus, to an extent they think they have it in the bag, kids, husband/wife, what could go wrong.

For the record, I would not try reconciliation but that is after having some experience with it failing.

For me, if it ever happens again, well, to bad, so sad, see you later...

Adaira posted 6/28/2019 14:26 PM

I *wish* I had issued a more firm “NC with her or NC with me - your choice” ultimatum after d-day, but I wasn’t thinking clearly. I was in complete shock, trying to keep my life together. I look back now on the bullshit I was willing to accept from him (pining over the AP, breaking NC, fence-sitting) and I’m like “WTF WAS I THINKING?” I wasn’t. I was out of my mind with grief and confusion.

I guess I’m “lucky” that I only wasted six months in that state.

ibonnie posted 6/28/2019 14:31 PM

Sometimes I cannot tell who is more addicted to whom: the WS to the AP or the BS to the WS. I assume that is ibonnie's point as I am faced with the same frustration as I read here. Lately I have realized that I am going to need to take a long break from SI because I simply cannot read case after case after case of unhealthy BS attachment (I cannot call it love). Yes, I walked the path and I remember, but I am losing my ability to stomach the--can I say "self-inflicted"?--pain of the BS by remaining with an obviously unremorseful or abusive WS. I know it's me. I know that I need to step away. I come here and try to triage whatever I find, whoever is hurting badly. But seeing that many BS are their own worst enemy as they fight for love instead of against abuse is more than my heart can sometimes take.

OIN nailed what I was trying to say. When posters come back, post after post, saying their WS stayed out all night without returning their calls, or they found more facebook messages to people, or they're found a website on their computer's history.

Then the BS's twist and turn trying to come up with plausible reasons or excuses, and it's just painful. There's your answer. That's how much they care about you and R.

I know it's cliche, however, being fair, firm, and consistent is essential to being a strong leader. The BS must lead the R. Leading doesn't mean being controlling or making your spouse feel inferior. Leading is simply, "Hey, I'm going this way. You can follow me, but this is where I am going." Here's the catch: You have to accept that they may not follow you, and if you change your course to follow them, you risk arriving at a destination you do not want to be.

And this! The WS isn't changing. The dynamic in the marriage isn't changing. And the BS is listening to some pretty words and wondering why things aren't different, but the actions are the same.

It's just... frustrating. I've been there.

To change DD's analogy slightly, it's like having a cat for ten years, and coming home one day to a dog that bites. And telling the dog, if you bite again, you're gonna be a in a kennel, but then the dog bites again and you wonder what happened to your cat.

Yes, it's traumatic and confusing and mind boggling. But deal with the biting issue, mourn the loss of your cat, and move forward with your life.

It just... it's frustrating and sad to see posters say things like, "my dog just bit the mail person, what should I do?" The answers they get are things like expose your dog's bad behavior and get some lessons from a trainer, and the poster comes back and is like, "I gave my dog more treats and I don't understand why they're still biting people."

I know the saying is, "take what you need and leave the rest," but it just... it gets frustrating to see people ignore good advice and wonder why they're getting the same results over and over again.

Evertrying posted 6/28/2019 15:12 PM

it gets frustrating to see people ignore good advice and wonder why they're getting the same results over and over again

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome,,,,,

I don't think it's as much as ignoring good advice as it is being able to ACCEPT it.

When you are fresh in shock with a broken heart and a broken life, you are not in a position to accept the good advice and turn it into actions. So you keep banging your head against the wall in hopes your WS will see the pain you are in and they will stop being a jackass.

Until you are in a space in your head and strong enough to say "This is bullshit and I am done accepting it", you will continue to bang your head.

I am no longer in that shitty spot. I am healing (though I still HATE the AP and haven't forgiven her and still deal with those feelings) my H and I are working through OUR new relationship together. But he is doing the work. He isn't worried about himself and worries about me and what his poor choices did to our marriage. At this point, only time will tell, but I am ready to kick his ass to the curb if he ever breaks NC.

I think the key is (and we have seen this on SI before) is to get to indifference. I hope to get there about his AP someday and let go of the hate I feel for her. I think all truly remorseful WS's get there about there AP's and don't give a crap. My H has said in the past (about his AP) "She has her own shit to fix with her H. She needs to work on herself. I just know I don't feel anything one way or another about her".

Time does heal all wounds. It may leave a gigantic scar, but life does go on.

J707 posted 6/28/2019 15:14 PM

In my case we seperated first, I couldn't figure out for the life of me why, other then a bunch of lame things she told me. Dday 2 months later. I was so heart broken just being away from all that I knew, wife family kids etc. Dday hit 2 months later and my head was spinning out of control. Looking back I have a better understanding about mental illness, even if it was temporary. It's so crazy how the mind reacts to infidelity. To have the one person that should have your back through thick and thin is the same person who purposely bought a knife, stabbed you in the back, as you turn around to see who it was, it was your WS, they rip it out and jab it in your heart, guess you won't be needing that anymore. But they happened to bring a bucket of salt to dust the fresh wounds and continue to tell you it's all your fault, you made me buy this knife. What a mind altering, traumatic event. It took me months and months to see which way was up and down while being the stable parent. Shock, disbelief, wanting what you were so used to in life, what you thought was real, all gone in a blink of an eye. It's a lot to take in at first so you try and hold on. Luckily my stbxww never snapped out of it and still denies any wrong doing. That made my decision for D a lot easier to go forward but I didn't see clearly for months after Dday.

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