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Rideitout posted 6/24/2019 16:26 PM

And, no, I did not mean socialize more so you can meet women to pick up. I meant widen your circle to include women.

The question I'd pose, how? Do things I don't really enjoy with the intent of meeting women there (for friendship, not sex)? Because that's what it would take, an active effort to go out and meet women to socialize with. They just don't run in the hobbies/circles I run in.

I asked my H last night about being honest with women about NSA sex. He said it's not hard to find them. There's no need to lie or manipulate to get women to agree to it.

Maybe today they do. I haven't dated in a long time, so I really don't know. I know it was rare/difficult to find when I was dating. Also, I think your H might be really good looking, wealthy, or just good with women; that gives you a different perspective. But, and I say this cautiously, the market is telling us something else. The demand for prostitutes continues to grow (as does the supply). If NSA is "easy to find", that market will disappear, why pay for something that's freely available (hence the reason there's basically no market at all for a male prostitute servicing only women, why pay??).

I guess...If you have no conscience and/or are a complete and utter asshole.

Or, if you believe, as I was raised, that "men and women enjoy sex the same/equally". Well then, the only man I can tell you definitely about sexually is myself. And I wouldn't have cared a lick if a woman "talked me into bed" or "manipulated me into bed" because, well, I really enjoy sex. It would have been a win/win. And that's how I saw it, I had a "good product" to sell, I just had to convince the customer to buy it and they'd be happy with what they got. So I had to do a little song/dance to "close the deal", didn't matter, because I was confident what I was selling the woman "wanted to buy". Which would be true if we both enjoyed sex as much as one another, of course you'd want to buy it. It turns out, that's not true at all, and what I did was wrong and I was a complete and utter asshole. But I didn't realize it at the time, I really didn't. I was operating from a flawed basis.

DevastatedDee posted 6/24/2019 16:42 PM

But, and I say this cautiously, the market is telling us something else. The demand for prostitutes continues to grow (as does the supply). If NSA is "easy to find", that market will disappear, why pay for something that's freely available (hence the reason there's basically no market at all for a male prostitute servicing only women, why pay??).

So easy to answer that one. That's because when you're a 40+ year-old man and you want to have sex with 18-22-year-olds, you have to pay for it 99% of the time. Some guys aren't happy with NSA sex with women in their general age range.

Striver posted 6/24/2019 18:24 PM

So easy to answer that one. That's because when you're a 40+ year-old man and you want to have sex with 18-22-year-olds, you have to pay for it 99% of the time. Some guys aren't happy with NSA sex with women in their general age range.

I do not think even in this supposed millenial NSA sex paradise we supposedly live in that the average 18 to 22 year old male has bountiful sexual opportunities with the average 18 to 22 year old female.

Reality is that frequency of sex acts in the total population is going down. The more people in LTRs, the higher the frequency of sex acts, and there are fewer people in LTRs overall. Women tend to take their cues from society and other women as to what to do. So Brad Pitt and Sean Connery head the "sexiest men" lists for years and years, because women just always name the same men. Men will name a thousand different women.

Yes, young women are the most desirable to men. Successful men are the most desirable to women. So when women go out and have their NSA sexual experiences as they are encouraged to in today's world, they likely have them with a subset of the available men. Some of the men are shut out of these experiences.

I will point out that I do not judge either gender. There is no right or wrong in what anyone wants. Men have their desires, so do women. I just think that women take their cues from each other and flock to what is believed to be the best at that time. They may then decide that NSA sex isn't what it's cracked up to be and flock in another direction. Whereas any particular man going through the same times is just obsessed with his particular fetish while the women are chasing the trends.

And yes, there are a portion of men who figure out enough "game" to get by, or realize that twenty something women do not value relationships at this point in time, and adjust accordingly.

Me personally, as a young man I did not pursue NSA sex. I figured that any child born by NSA sex was 100% my responsibility, regardless of the actions of the women, so I didn't go down that road. So I'm maybe less sympathetic than RIO to these situations, since I never instigated them in the first place.

Rideitout posted 6/24/2019 18:42 PM

I do not think even in this supposed millenial NSA sex paradise we supposedly live in that the average 18 to 22 year old male has bountiful sexual opportunities with the average 18 to 22 year old female.

Statistically speaking, the "younger generation" (than me) has less sexual opportunity than I did. As you said, frequency is down as is distribution. Now, in the group having sex is casual "I'd just like a F" now an effective/good pick up line? I don't know. Seems like it's better than it used to be, Tinder being presented as exhibit A, B and C in that list. However, I've read that there are certainly some (portrayed to be a lot) of women who are upset that their generation has become "Tinderfied". Where, if I was a man of that age, it would be the best thing since sliced bread (actually, a lot better than that, but, hey, that's the saying).

I'm not sure "bountiful" sex has ever really existed for the vast majority of 18-22 year old men. I was pretty good at getting it, and had more than most of my friends, but the effort required nearly consumed my life. Yes, it's doable, but man, you're gonna work for it. And I consider myself a good looking guy who had his act together at that age, had the right friends.. It was still a ton of work.

So when women go out and have their NSA sexual experiences as they are encouraged to in today's world, they likely have them with a subset of the available men.

Men, in general, live at the extremes. The smartest people to have lived were almost all men, the dumbest were too. The richest people in society are almost all men, the poorest living in the streets, almost all men. Men "deviate from the norm" much more strongly than women, some men sleep with 1000 women, some struggle to find one. The rewards are huge, but the pitfalls are also huge.

I think this applies to affairs too. My W has had one affair. Her AP has had several (discovered by his W, lord knows how many others). The men I know who cheat, with one exception, aren't "one and done", they cycle few at least a few, and some of them a lot of APs. Yes, the cheating rate between the sexes is similar, but, I'd bet my life that if you looked at the number of AP's per male vs female cheat, the number would be vastly different. Again, living a few standard deviations from the norm.

Whereas any particular man going through the same times is just obsessed with his particular fetish

I'd put it this way, speaking for myself. I wanted sex because I wanted sex. Not validation, not a girlfriend, not a wife, not someone to listen to me talk, not a new friend. Nope, I wanted sex because that's what I wanted. Not really a fetish, but the desire was aligned with the actions that I took. I wasn't trying to "fit in", or be the "big man on campus", quite the contrary, I'd sleep with women and lie about it to everyone "Nahh, she blew me off" to protect her reputation (which, selfishly, was good for sleeping with the woman again, too many guys bragged and made their hook ups look bad).

Justgetitoverwith posted 6/24/2019 18:51 PM

But, and I say this cautiously, the market is telling us something else. The demand for prostitutes continues to grow (as does the supply). If NSA is "easy to find", that market will disappear, why pay for something that's freely available

And I'm also thinking that there's a large number of men who go because they want something different than they are likely to easily get out of a one night stand. How many women would want to be encouraged to act out in a certain way the first (only?) time they are having sex with someone? Seems a bit demeaning.

[This message edited by Justgetitoverwith at 6:52 PM, June 24th (Monday)]

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 08:51 AM

Men, in general, live at the extremes. The smartest people to have lived were almost all men, the dumbest were too. The richest people in society are almost all men, the poorest living in the streets, almost all men.

You realize that the smartest person who ever lived could well have been a woman in the 15th century who was owned by her husband and pretty much stuck churning out babies and never attended school.

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 08:56 AM

I hereby officially announce my transgender status. It has become obvious to me that despite my previous assumptions I am not, in fact, a woman. It seems that I have very little in common with them.

Goodness...could we be more "us" vs "them" when it comes to gender??

hikingout posted 6/25/2019 09:02 AM

. Which would be true if we both enjoyed sex as much as one another, of course you'd want to buy it. It turns out, that's not true at all, and what I did was wrong and I was a complete and utter asshole. But I didn't realize it at the time, I really didn't. I was operating from a flawed basis.


I think that women do enjoy sex as much as men do. I don't know where that statement comes from.


I think some women may require a true connection for sex, but some men do as well. I think some women may be blindsided that you lied to get in their pants, but men do not like to be lied to either.


I am going to be with Dee on this, maybe I am transgender. LOL

Rideitout posted 6/25/2019 09:06 AM

You realize that the smartest person who ever lived could well have been a woman in the 15th century who was owned by her husband and pretty much stuck churning out babies and never attended school.

It's possible, but unlikely. Take a look at the distribution of IQ by sex. When you get to the outliers (very low and very high IQ) the numbers slant towards more men. By the time you get to Mensa status (top 2%), it's about a 2-1 ratio of men/women who either take the test or are granted admission based on previous test scores. And the higher you go, the more slanted it gets.

Same thing at lower IQs. The further you get from the norm (100) the more likely you are to find men, both really smart and very challenged.

I've read before that the best explanation for this is nature takes more risks with men. And, from an evolutionary perspective, that makes a lot of sense, men are less valuable and a really "high achiever" can impregnate a whole lot of women. If you're going to take risks with the genome, it makes a lot more sense to take it with the "y's" than the "x's". And statistics bear this out, as does just cursory examination of society. Homeless person, likely to be a man. Billionaire, also likely to be a man.

Goodness...could we be more "us" vs "them" when it comes to gender??

It doesn't need to be "vs". It's different. That's my point, not that one is better or worse, they are just different, very different in some areas, less so in others. Ignoring those differences when it comes to infidelity is missing the forest through the trees, IMHO.

I think that women do enjoy sex as much as men do. I don't know where that statement comes from.

I can't say "men". But I can speak for myself. And if you (or women in general) enjoy sex as much as I do, there's absolutely no harm in lying to get it. I wouldn't care at all if you lied to get into my pants because I enjoy sex. That was my point with that statement. I don't need context to make that statement, if it's consensual, I could care less if you're lying through your teeth about your "long term intentions" or "feelings for me". Sex, by itself, it a standalone good. And, I'll say that this obviously isn't entirely my viewpoint on it. Looking at the world around you and viewing the differences in behavior (masturbation frequency, use of prostitutes, sexual partner distribution, etc) tells the story much better than my personal perspective on it.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 9:11 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 09:11 AM

I think we're gonna need a little more time after women have had some standing in society and mattered to be making statements on which gender is more likely to be intelligent.

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 09:27 AM

It doesn't need to be "vs". It's different. That's my point, not that one is better or worse, they are just different, very different in some areas, less so in others.

Yet from a lot of what you post, I am a man. So I am quite confused. We aren't as different as you seem to think. We're all different from one another. We're all individuals. I grew up playing with Transformers and Star Wars toys and was obsessed with dinosaurs (my T-Rex often slaughtered my Barbies), and ooh I do love shopping for shoes. I hate sewing and I love painting my nails. I totally dig drinking a beer and watching football and I get excited about new brands of mascara. I freakin' love classic cars and I'm obsessed with sunflowers. I enjoy yard work and hate housecleaning. I'm more likely to have NSA sex than I am to look for a relationship and I like painting furniture. I loved being a mom of little babies and I love cutting stuff down with a chainsaw. I like perfume and gruesome horror movies.

There are lots of men here whose wives cheated on them with several men and lots of women here whose husbands "fell in love"/cheated with one other woman. Some of us left at the first sign of infidelity, some stayed and worked on the marriage, some of us were in the middle in our reactions. We're all individuals.

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 09:35 AM

I can't say "men". But I can speak for myself. And if you (or women in general) enjoy sex as much as I do, there's absolutely no harm in lying to get it. I wouldn't care at all if you lied to get into my pants because I enjoy sex. That was my point with that statement. I don't need context to make that statement, if it's consensual, I could care less if you're lying through your teeth about your "long term intentions" or "feelings for me". Sex, by itself, it a standalone good. And, I'll say that this obviously isn't entirely my viewpoint on it. Looking at the world around you and viewing the differences in behavior (masturbation frequency, use of prostitutes, sexual partner distribution, etc) tells the story much better than my personal perspective on it.

I do not care for being lied to in any scenario. I found it offensive and belittling for a man to lie to me to get sex. It reduces me in his eyes to a pawn and not a person and therefore reduces my attraction towards him. If a man required my lies to have sex with me, I couldn't do it. I would not disrespect a man that way. What you don't get about women and NSA sex is that the risk we take to get that does have an effect on how willing we are to just drop our pants wherever. We bear the brunt of the risk. We have to hope that you aren't going to use superior muscles to do bad things to us. We have to hope that we can "make" you wear a condom. We risk pregnancy, and that is no minor thing. It is more challenging for us to reach orgasm and the odds of us finding a guy who gives a fuck about helping us get there aren't that great. Scenario: I'm really horny. I can A. Go find a guy to have casual sex with, hope that he's a decent human, and I may or may not orgasm or B. Go home and say hello to my vibrator and have 10 orgasms and no risk. That kinda does factor in, you know?

As for paying for sex, oh please. I paid enough for my sex toys and I have an imagination if no one is interested in touching me. I would not lower myself to pay someone to pretend to find me attractive. That's not sexy.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:36 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

OwningItNow posted 6/25/2019 10:44 AM

I think that women do enjoy sex as much as men do. I don't know where that statement comes from.

If we are generalizing based on what we have seen and read (and we seem to be), I do not agree. Women seem to have a lot of mental and emotional sexual needs, while men seem to be able to function on a purely physical response level. To me and my reading, research, irl conversations, this is a biological difference.

Women can enjoy sex as much as men but often do not.

OwningItNow posted 6/25/2019 10:48 AM

Just as an informal poll, if we asked women and men the three most important needs and most satisfying needs in their life, I feel sex would make the top three for men 98% of the time, but I think the percentage for women would be much lower.

1. Time with my children.
2. Accomplishment and a sense of contributing in the world.
3. Personal leisure like exercise and nature.

Sex does not make my top three, not even my top five. Food and sleep or time with friends would round out my top five. Sex and affection would be six or seven.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:49 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

ibonnie posted 6/25/2019 10:54 AM

Just as an informal poll, if we asked women and men the three most important needs and most satisfying needs in their life, I feel sex would make the top three for men 98% of the time, but I think the percentage for women would be much lower.

Everyone’s different. I didn't have sex for three months when my WH and I were separated, and I felt like I was constantly on edge. Taking care of myself was only a stopgap solution.

Edited to add: Since I had sex for the first time as a teen, and aside from when I had my period, and then later on after having babies and taking a break from PIV sex for 6-8 weeks, I don't think I've ever voluntarily gone more than a week without having sex.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 11:03 AM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 10:57 AM

If we are generalizing based on what we have seen and read (and we seem to be), I do not agree. Women seem to have a lot of mental and emotional sexual needs, while men seem to be able to function on a purely physical response level. To me and my reading, research, irl conversations, this is a biological difference.

Women can enjoy sex as much as men but often do not.

Bear with me on this...I think that this has as much or more to do with how women are viewed in society as anything biological. I don't have to have emotions involved in sex, but emotions will put me off it with particular people. RIO says he doesn't care if he's lied to if it results in sex. I say that I do care that I'm lied to even if I was totally down for the sex. For me, I am going to be offended that another human being treated me in a way that I wouldn't treat another human being and therefore sex with him is diminished in it's attraction. If a man is okay with being lied to as long as it involved sex, could that be because the woman in question isn't really a human being that he's interacting with but a living breathing sex toy?

If women are commodities, you can lie to them or purchase them to use. I don't view men as commodities. I've had my share of ONS and I viewed those as occurring with other human beings with whom I would do something fun and pleasurable and treat him with respect for his autonomy, make sure he had a great time too, and not lie to him about my intentions. Men are people to me. Women aren't people to everyone. Some women (moms, daughters, wives) are people to some men, but other women are to be used for their own gain. This is a societal problem.

I would rather have sex with an average looking guy who is happy to be there than to pay a really hot guy to pretend to be happy to be there because sex is worth more than that and people are worth more than that. I don't want to treat a man like he's nothing but an object. That doesn't do anything for me at all. Even if I know I'm never talking to the man again, he's still worthy of my respect and honesty. There doesn't have to be anything crass about a ONS.

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 10:59 AM

Everyone’s different. I didn't have sex for three months when my WH and I were separated, and I felt like I was constantly on edge. Taking care of myself was only a stopgap solution.

Thank you. Exactly.

DevastatedDee posted 6/25/2019 11:02 AM

Just as an informal poll, if we asked women and men the three most important needs and most satisfying needs in their life, I feel sex would make the top three for men 98% of the time, but I think the percentage for women would be much lower.
1. Time with my children.
2. Accomplishment and a sense of contributing in the world.
3. Personal leisure like exercise and nature.

Sex does not make my top three, not even my top five. Food and sleep or time with friends would round out my top five. Sex and affection would be six or seven.

If I don't have sufficent orgasms, I am not going to have the ability to do the other things without being distracted and edgy. So sex has to come higher on the list. Food, sex, sleep are all necessary for me to perform my other life things with any competency.

ibonnie posted 6/25/2019 11:25 AM

Not all guys are into ONS/casual sex, either. My WH was a serial monogamist. When he broke up with his last gf, I thought it was just a fun/FWB situation, meanwhile he was constantly trying to cuddle, hold my hand when we were hanging out in a group, make plans together... I was kind of ambivalent at first, but he was persistent and grew on me.

As for lying to get sex/men and women liking sex equally, RIO, I think you fail to consider that even if a woman (and not all do -- I have girlfriends that don't masturbate! ) enjoy sex as much as the average guy, society slut shames women in ways it doesn't with men. Also, non-consenual sex practicings/stealthing (removing a condom mid-sex act without the woman's consent/pregnancy are all VERY SERIOUS concerns a woman has to consider.

Also, if I was considering buying a used car, and the saleman was telling me the AC feels like artic winds and it stops on a dime... and then the next day the next day it's blowing hot air because there's a leak in the AC system, I find out it needs pads AND rotors, and the check engine light is on and it's misfiring, I'm gonna be pissed, because I wasn't looking for a cheap clunker.

But if you were advertising the car "as is, needs work, $500/OBO," that would be a different story.

Lying is never cool, and if you're dropping "ILYs" to get a girl in bed, you're being a manipulative ass, because you know you don't, you're toying with her feelings.

And this works both ways. There have been guys that I thought we were clear, we were FWB. They seem cool with it at first, because that means they can date or hook up with whomever they want, and then they get jealous and weird when they realize, "oh, she's actually got plans with another guy? She's not just waiting around for my call when we're not together?"

WornDown posted 6/25/2019 12:40 PM

Or, if you believe, as I was raised, that "men and women enjoy sex the same/equally". Well then, the only man I can tell you definitely about sexually is myself. And I wouldn't have cared a lick if a woman "talked me into bed" or "manipulated me into bed" because, well, I really enjoy sex. It would have been a win/win. And that's how I saw it, I had a "good product" to sell, I just had to convince the customer to buy it and they'd be happy with what they got. So I had to do a little song/dance to "close the deal", didn't matter, because I was confident what I was selling the woman "wanted to buy". Which would be true if we both enjoyed sex as much as one another, of course you'd want to buy it. It turns out, that's not true at all, and what I did was wrong and I was a complete and utter asshole. But I didn't realize it at the time, I really didn't. I was operating from a flawed basis.

Jesus man...I don't know how you "was raised," but your moral compass is all fucked up.

I enjoy having money a lot. So do most (all) people.

By your measurement, if I lie and con them out of their money, I'm golden, because, well, we both like money.

What your logic fails to add into account is that most people don't like getting lied to or used and taken advantage of. THAT, makes everything else you said about people "liking X" irrelevant. You're lying to someone else to get what you want, and that is just wrong.

You do this often in these threads - Your logic paths are a bit off. You make logical statements then at the end take them to some extreme, generalized conclusion by ignoring a key input to the logic, and then say, "See, it's ok. I'm right."

[This message edited by WornDown at 12:42 PM, June 25th (Tuesday)]

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