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Men, does the idea of a free pass turn you on?

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hikingout posted 6/3/2019 10:28 AM

Well, there are enough women on Tinder to qualify one out. I do know some single ladies that are looking for NSA, but the pool of women who would do that with a married man does decrease the pool.

Though, that's the truth with affairs too...to have one you have to find the other scuzzy person who is willing to do that with you. That's why it always seems we "affair down"...because we soooo do.

I do not advocate for a free pass at all. I actually believe it would lead to certain death of the relationship. It's not because I feel like I should be able to do it but he can't --more because after dday everything is hanging by a string and to inflict more trauma to the situation, you might as well get a divorce. (I know, ironic, as I could have asked to get a divorce before having an A). I also feel like having been the one who strayed that it did not make me feel better about myself, it made me feel worse and I can only imagine that would be the likely outcome for H. He might get that fun moment but the feeling of losing all sense of integrity is one that stays long after the fact.

Anyway, I just posted that about tender because I just chuckled because we are all old. Dating now is not what it was back then. And, I do believe some women do have NSA. I certainly did as a young person, as an older person I don't think I would be capable of it any longer if I ever returned to the dating pool.

I had dinner the other night with a friend of mine that is newly divorced. She said "I found the secret on how to get a guy interested". I was like "Okay, what?" She said "Tell them you don't want a relationship, they will follow you around like a puppy". I laughed because I found the same thing to be true in those NSA situations. So, it goes both genders btw.

Butforthegrace posted 6/3/2019 10:42 AM

Tinder. Lol. Of course. I have not dated anybody since before the internet, and therefore have zero experience with OLD.

Rideitout posted 6/3/2019 12:09 PM

Well, there are enough women on Tinder to qualify one out. I do know some single ladies that are looking for NSA, but the pool of women who would do that with a married man does decrease the pool.

Does it decrease the pool to 0? I'm curious, because, in my experience, it does. That's a very, very hard sell as a man (yes, I'm married, yes, I love my W, yes, you're just a F and if I'm honest, it's only to get back at my WW). That's going to be a real needle in a haystack unless you're exceptionally good looking.

I do not advocate for a free pass at all.

Me either. First off, because, as we've discussed, there's a massive difference between a male and female "free pass". My WW could line up 10 wildly good looking guys before the end of the day, it would take me weeks/months to line up NSA and, almost certainly, they would be less attractive than my WW (where she could have NSA with someone much more attractive than me easily). So, there's the inherit disparity that makes me say "no, this isn't a good idea", but also the idea of it just doesn't strike me right. It feels like "revenge" more than healing. And I'm all for revenge in some situations, but, not if you're trying to fix things. That's why a threesome is a much more attractive proposition to me, that's not revenge, it's experiencing something new with your partner.

hikingout posted 6/3/2019 12:17 PM

Does it decrease the pool to 0? I'm curious, because, in my experience, it does.

I have no way of knowing that, but I highly doubt it. And, you have no experience with Tinder, I presume. (Is it tinder or tender??? That's how old I am...LOL) It has changed the whole game. Where you might have spent a couple hours with a girl in a bar trying to feel her out on whether she would go home with you or not, a lot of these men or women will show up just for that.

I don't think it's great, I am not advocating it. I am just saying it's there, it's a tool we never used or had when we were dating (thank goodness) but I don't think it would be hard to find someone and I doubt unless you look like an Ogre or something that it matters much to some of them. It's a new world.

I feel like ending this with "In my day, sonny..."

SilverLinings55 posted 6/3/2019 12:31 PM

GoldenR said:

If she offered it to me, my reaction would be:
Ok....when did you cheat?

BINGO! (From experience.)

Rideitout posted 6/3/2019 12:43 PM

I have no way of knowing that, but I highly doubt it. And, you have no experience with Tinder, I presume. (Is it tinder or tender??? That's how old I am...LOL) It has changed the whole game. Where you might have spent a couple hours with a girl in a bar trying to feel her out on whether she would go home with you or not, a lot of these men or women will show up just for that.

Well, you have me nailed.. :) No experience with these apps, but, I do wonder, why have they altered behavior so much? Now, let me be clear, I have no doubt I could go on Tinder and find someone to hook up with, I'm just not sure I could do it honestly. "Rio, male, 40's, looking to cheat on my W, swipe right for a meaningless f**k. Oh, and no, I won't call you in the morning". Perhaps I could soften that language a bit, but still, telling the truth of it (for a free pass/RA) seems like it'd be very, very difficult to get someone to agree to it. Now, if I went on Tinder and said "Male, in shape, good job, enjoy good books and even better meals", yeah, no doubt. I'm sure I could find someone to hook up with me, maybe even with "This is NSA" stated somewhere between the bullshit as a disclaimer.

I think your right, apps like Tinder have changed the game. But, I'll give you the counterpoint, prostitution is apparently at an all time high, both consumption and supply, in this country. And, as we know, the only real "consumer" of that service is male. If it's so easy to find NSA on Tinder, why on earth would men pay for it? I'd put forth, yes, it's easy to find on Tinder IF you're very good looking/wealthy/famous or, alternately, if you "lower your standards" a lot. A guy who's an 8 (on the 1-10 scale), can pretty easily get NSA from a woman who's a 3. But getting it from another 8? That's gonna be hard. Or at least it used to be! Maybe the situations has changed, I'm certainly not the right person to talk about it, I have no idea. But I find it hard to believe that those 2 things would happen at once, easily available NSA like ordering a pizza and an illegal and expensive way to get NSA both rising at the same time? I really think that Tinder just gave people "more reach". More ability to troll for partners and make yourself available, instead of to a bar, to an entire geographic area. But I can't imagine that woman's preferences have changed that much.

Actually, interesting question. Anyone happen to know if the number of partners a woman has at 25-30 has risen much/dramatically since Tinder? That'll tell you most of the story right there, if women are sleeping with more people, yes, sex might be easier to come by. If not, well; I suspect this is a funnel effect; sex is even more accessible to guys who could easily get it at the local bar, and still inaccessible to the guy who sits around and eats Cheetos all day long. :) Seems that no woman in history has even found orange fingers attractive.. Who knew!

stolenyears posted 6/3/2019 12:47 PM

unless you look like an Ogre or something

Ogres are people too...

Back in my day, we had to use this thing called a land line to communicate. No way to swipe through and find a suitable candidate...

(Sounding old again) There are no free lunches. Seems like the one that cashes in the 'free' pass will become guilt ridden which bears a heavy cost, so in reality it wasn't free at all. Or the one that issued the 'free' pass was just grandstanding and didn't really mean it, so there now is resentment for actually playing that card. Even open marriages can end in infidelity if one of the partners goes underground, so I am not sure how it ever works.

My reaction would be like GoldenR as well...when did you cheat?

hikingout posted 6/3/2019 12:52 PM

There are no free lunches. Seems like the one that cashes in the 'free' pass will become guilt ridden which bears a heavy cost, so in reality it wasn't free at all.


Stolen, this was exactly my first post on this thread. No such thing as free pass...everything we do has consequences - the good things, the bad things, and the indifferent things. I agree whole heartedly. I guess I got sidelined on the idea of "where would you find anyone do to this with", and to me, it just shows our age. You wanted to ask someone out? You had to know who they were first, they had to cross your path or at least someone you knew had to know them. Nowadays it's wide open as to how you can find people.


Btw - I don't mind ogres. I was mostly just responding to Rideitout's reasoning as to why that would be impossible. It's not impossible at all, but just because it's possible doesn't mean you should do it.

stolenyears posted 6/3/2019 13:01 PM

Btw - I don't mind ogres.

I know, it was a feeble attempt at some humor or sarcasm. But maybe Shrek wore the assless chaps and that's how he and Fiona hooked up...

And RIO - I think you underestimate the ease of making this happen. YOU might feel guilt about it, but from the sounds of your friends that you always mention, it seems like it is done with relative ease, whether you are an 8 or a 4, or even an ogre. Even without apps, I think it is frighteningly easy to make it happen, and that is why lots of us are here on this site.

hikingout posted 6/3/2019 13:03 PM

Rideitout,

I think there have always been women who will have NSA. I think finding them was harder because just like I just said in my last post to Stolen - you had to encounter her somehow. I had my share of NSA's as a single woman, and most were ONS. In cases that I had to run into them again, or they had my number, I eventually would be told that I was cold hearted or some other thing because I wasn't interested in continuing anything with them. I have many girlfriends who have been single at different stages, and there are many that have NSA flings. Females do have and enjoy recreational sex, this is not from outer space. Many of the ladies here have said they did those things as single ladies too. I will however give you, that I would not have been interested in married guys. (I know the irony isn't lost on me that I did it later any way but it's the truth)


I don't know anything about prostitution or how much it's increased, or where the stats come from. (how do you get people to participate in such a survey? You don't) In Nevada alone it's become legal and I would think that might skew some of the stats to some degree.

I think many men tend to think it's a victimless crime. I know I have debated you about sex trafficking in America and you basically thought I was a conspirator theorist. Yet the very weekend that I mentioned it, there was a ring busted out at Atlanta when an investigative group targeted the Superbowl. There was a case in Michigan where they found something like 150 missing people in one sex traffic sting. Both instances these were Americans trafficking Americans. If you read anything about the sex industry - including and especially porn, it might really reduce the attractiveness of it. Many are drug addicts trying to support their habit, and those outnumber the "college girl paying for school" crap that men usually site.


I don't know, if I were a man I think I would probably rather find someone I don't have to pay and who may have less chance of being there against their will...but I am not a man and I can't even begin to guess.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:05 PM, June 3rd (Monday)]

Rideitout posted 6/3/2019 15:14 PM

And RIO - I think you underestimate the ease of making this happen. YOU might feel guilt about it, but from the sounds of your friends that you always mention, it seems like it is done with relative ease, whether you are an 8 or a 4, or even an ogre. Even without apps, I think it is frighteningly easy to make it happen, and that is why lots of us are here on this site.

Oh no, I don't underestimate the ease of making it happen. What I did is add a complication, "making it clear this is NSA". I have no doubt if I pulled the routine my friends do, took off my wedding ring, went to the hotel bar, acted like a single guy in town for a few nights who might be open to more, but who's really just a rolling stone and looking for a night of love... Yeah, I could make it happen, easily; I'm quite sure.

What I could not make happen is what I explained before. Being HONEST. Sure, I could lie, just like the AP did, and I'm sure I could find someone new to sleep with. But what I doubt I could do is put up my Tinder profile as "married, looking to cheat" (if there's even that classification), swipe right, and have someone take me up on that offer. I mean, I'm sure I could eventually, I think I'm a good looking guy and swiping right enough (and on enough women who are less attractive to me), eventually, I'm sure I'd get a taker. But if my dating experience is any guide, it would be 100's of women before I found someone. And she'd be way below "my standards". Because the vast majority of women I'd find attractive have better options. Hotter guys who'd happily give them NSA. Or guys as good looking as me who aren't married. Being married, and being honest about it, while I'll admit, I've never tried it, would seem to be quite a deathblow to my "NSA dating" prospects. Yes, I love my wife, nope, don't care about you at all but sure, let's f**k. Now, we've heard from other women that this DOES happen, so I'm not saying it's impossible. But I did a LOT of dating before getting married, and I only encountered women like this a few times; almost all recently D'ed, and all significantly older (at the time) than me. And I wasn't married, nor was I making it abundantly clear that they were just another "notch" in the bedpost.

Yet the very weekend that I mentioned it, there was a ring busted out at Atlanta when an investigative group targeted the Superbowl. There was a case in Michigan where they found something like 150 missing people in one sex traffic sting.

Yes, and of those arrested, how many were trafficked? Look at the Robert Kraft case, the headline was "Human trafficking ring busted!!" in bold print. But then, come to find out, in that particular case, it was actually 0. 0 of those women were forced to be there (other than by circumstance). Yes, I do think that, in America (and that's important, in other countries, 3rd world nations, I DO NOT think this) human trafficking is very rare compared to willingly prostituting yourself (again, because of bad circumstances and/or no other options in a lot of cases. And that is sad, but it's no sadder than a man singing up for the military because he has no other options, or working in an underground coal mine, or any other "bad job" out there. Yes, I wouldn't want my daughter to do that job, but I also wouldn't want my son to be a coal miner for very similar reasons, dangerous, dirty, get injuries and illnesses and die young, etc.).

I don't know, if I were a man I think I would probably rather find someone I don't have to pay and who may have less chance of being there against their will...but I am not a man and I can't even begin to guess.

No doubt that would be a better option. It would be more fulfilling too because, of course, you get the ego boost from seducing someone new. But in some ways, I kind of see that like saying "And I'd like to win the lottery too!". Yes, of course, that's better than working, no argument from me. But it's also unlikely. And you'll play many, many times before you win, either the lotto or the "NSA bang".


I think many men tend to think it's a victimless crime.

I don't think it's victimless, but I also don't think it's a crime. There's obvious victims, just like there are with other bad/dangerous jobs. People die. People get sick. People get beat up. Those people are victims, no doubt about it. But there are all kinds of jobs like that, it's not unique to prostitution at all; in fact, other than "street prostitution" (which is basically like strolling into a gas mine with a lit cigarette, about as dangerous as it gets), it's not as shockingly dangerous as the headlines would have you believe. But it is FAR more dangerous than almost any other job that lots of women do, and it's also done almost 100% by women, so, you wind up with skewed stats. If we had a lot of women mining underground, that would likely lead the death toll for females as well. But those jobs are almost entirely male dominated, so not many women wind up pulled through a bucket wheel excavator where a lot of women do wind up beat up by a John. That I do not dispute at all, it's a dangerous job that pays well; but there are a lot of them out there (some of which also don't pay very well).

If you read anything about the sex industry - including and especially porn, it might really reduce the attractiveness of it.

I don't find the sex industry attractive. I find is kind of grotesque and sad. But I find it less sad than "gaming" some innocent woman to sleep with me for my "free pass" and tearing her life up. What did she do to me to deserve that? Sure, as I said above, if I met someone who was honest and I honest with her about my intentions, yeah, that would be better, no doubt about it. But I wonder, even today, how many times did I say "this is casual" to a woman who agreed to it but in her heart, was hoping for something else? How many women did I hurt in my quest for NSA? If you start from the basis of "women want sex as much as men" what's the harm in lying, right? I wouldn't give a hoot if someone lied to me to get in my pants because I really enjoy sex for it's own sake. But, come to find out (after my W's A and much reading) that's not actually what many/most women are after. And yet, in the A, they often act like porn stars and I'm sure do plenty of "This is just for fun" talk with their AP to keep it from getting "too serious" and him running. IDK, as you can tell, I'm pretty twisted on this issue. Which is really sad, even my W today, when she says "I'd like to have sex" my radar starts to blip.. Why? Why me? What are you really after? Because of the A, I really struggle with the concept of "I'll have sex to keep the kibbles coming" the most common explanation for a female PA. It's almost never "for the sex", it's for other things. And that bothers me to no end, especially with my WW.

SisterMilkshake posted 6/3/2019 15:17 PM

Gosh, I know it is petty, but...ALL chaps are assless. It is redundant to say assless chaps.

stolenyears posted 6/3/2019 15:26 PM

Gosh, I know it is petty, but...ALL chaps are assless. It is redundant to say assless chaps.

Yes, straight from the Department of Redundancy Department. But it definitely emphasizes the visual aspect and leaves you with quite the mind picture for the most dramatic effect. Plus, the word assless just flows and you don't get to use it in a sentence very often.

Now, what were we talking about?

hikingout posted 6/3/2019 16:15 PM

Rideitout -


Last thread jack on this - you are very, very misinformed about sex trafficking in America. Watch In Plain Sight to start. It's truly an epidemic. Read more about it.

I didn't mean to say you found the sex industry attractive - I was referencing porn use, of which you have written many things about. I don't expect people will stop watching porn, but you have to wonder sometimes what that person on screen has had to endure, and how much of it she is really okay with. Especially when you become educated about trafficking. Which is real and a growing problem.

I really struggle with the concept of "I'll have sex to keep the kibbles coming" the most common explanation for a female PA. It's almost never "for the sex", it's for other things. And that bothers me to no end, especially with my WW.


I can understand what you are saying here. What I am about to say could be very triggering for some.
Sex likely was not the motivation for the affair, I agree. It wasn't for mine either. In fact, I doubt she was even aware at all of a motivation. I didn't say "Hey, you know I will have sex to keep ego kibbles coming". I realized later it could be boiled down to that. At the time the sex occurred, I wanted to have it. I had allowed myself to get to such a state of isolation/sadness - I was disconnected from myself. Getting swept up in a "relationship" with the AP made me feel good. But, it was like playing out a role sort of. To be found sexy and desireable, you have to act it in the role.

It's hard for you to understand because that's not how you cope. It's not normal. So, you keep asking the wrong question. It's not how can you do that for ego kibbles - it's how does someone like your wife - beautiful and smart - (from your own description) feel so poorly about herself that she needed this fantasyland she was living out to feel good? And, what has she done to increase her self worth and abilities to cope since then? Why did she seek out a KISA to make her feel better?


Or if you need to surround it by ego kibbles --- WHY did a beautiful and smart woman need that outside validation? And, what has she done to be more self-validating?


still-living posted 6/3/2019 17:32 PM

My wife offered me a free pass, and I had plenty of opportunities to use it. The thing is, I see it as abuse, using another woman, and I could not see myself doing this. At that time, I would have been more interested in receiving free pass to find another wife, rather than to have a one night stand.

Notthevictem posted 6/3/2019 21:56 PM

I see it as abuse, using another woman

Eurythmics!

Rideitout posted 6/4/2019 04:50 AM

The thing is, I see it as abuse, using another woman, and I could not see myself doing this.

I never did before, but I do now. This is exactly how I see it today. But, in the past, I saw it entirely differently; I used to have NSA regularly and I didn't see it as abusing anyone at all.

Let me explain a bit. When I was younger, I came at sex from the "feminist" perspective. Growing up, I was taught men and women enjoyed sex the same, and just as much and, for the time, a "sex positive" household. Now, I'm sure this was an unintended side effect, but I internalized that message and it guided by behavior dating and sleeping with women.

See, if "we enjoy it the same", what is the harm in talking a woman out of her panties for a ONS? Or, in this example, lying to a woman about my M status to have sex, then not calling again? I wouldn't be upset about that, I had sex, sex is something I enjoy, so, while I might be sad I won't have sex with that person again, it's not like I regret the sex I had with them. It's like traveling to another country and having a great meal, no, I'll never be back here again, but, yes, I'm glad I had the experience.

Thing is, it seems that whole line of thinking was flawed. I'll speak to my personal experience, but, when my W and I talk about our past sexual experiences, she has nothing but negative. She didn't enjoy sex with other people very much, she has a ton of shame for what she did, and, if she could, she'd take it all back. 100X for the sex from the affair, it makes her sick today and she'd do anything (her words) to make it go away.

For me, it's very different. I have mostly (almost all) positive experiences with sex. I look back on people I had sex with in the past with a smile, I enjoyed spending that time with them and enjoyed having sex with them. Yes, like everyone, I have a few regrettable sexual experiences, but, even racking my brain right now, I'm having trouble remembering more than 2 (both alcohol induced, good reason to quit drinking, right RIO!). I don't regret the sex I had with other people, if anything, I have fond memories of it.

So, back to the beginning, if we start from the basis of "men and women enjoy sex the same/equally" and, given how I personally enjoy sex, it follows that there's "no harm" in a ONS or NSA sex. Talking someone out of their panties makes us both happier (this is what I believed, misguided as it may have been), so, in effect, lying or misconstruing my long term intentions is doing both of us a favor because, if you believe it, we both get to have sex.

I want to note, I'm not advancing that last statement as a fact, I'm putting it out there to expose how I used to think and how I viewed sex as pretty much a "universal good" for both men and women. A night having sex with someone is better than a night alone, so, why not "kick some game" and try to get that girl into bed, right?

Well.. I was wrong. This site and others proved that to me without any shadow of doubt at all. I'm sure in my carousing days I talked a few married women into bed (I didn't know, didn't ask, and didn't care; no, this is also NOT right, but, it's who I was), and, if those women are anything like the WW's here, they deeply regret that decision. I made the world a much crappier place by what I was doing, yes, it made me happy, but, if I'd known what I was doing to other people it wouldn't have, not at all! Looking back on it, the entire thing makes me upset with myself and sad for the women. And, with my WW as the model, married or not, at least some women wind up regretting most of the sex they have. And the kind of sex I was having (ONS/NSA) seems to be the highest on the "wish I didn't do that" list for most.

Let's make this a little more personal. Before I met my W, I was NSA with a girl named Jane. We had a pretty electric sex life and it was obvious that she wanted to be "more", but I was dancing around and not committing. But, even a few years ago, a decade after I last say her, I'd think back and smile, "Wow, Jane and I had a great time together" (almost all of which was between the sheets). I smiled not out of a smug "I got mine", but because I thought we really both enjoyed that time together. I imagined Jane married with 2 kids thinking the same, "Man, I'm glad I met RIO, he was a fun guy". And I believed that right up until the A and the mountain of reading I did to the "why's". Now, I don't believe it at all. She probably thinks, much like my W does about her past partners, in short "I wish I'd never met him/had sex with him". My W had sex with about 10 people before we got together, she regrets every single one of them, why would Jane be any different?

It's a total mind f**k. And looping this all around to the topic at hand, I struggle to see how that same mind f**k wouldn't drastically impact my enjoyment or willingness to participate in a "free pass" type of sexual encounter. Is this person sleeping with me simply because they are like I am, horny and want a lay, or because they feel something emotional, want something more, are hoping for a connection/love/etc? How the heck could I ever figure that out? I know my W very well, I struggle every day with sex because of these very thoughts, "She had A sex to keep the kibbles coming, not because she wanted sex; how is this any different?". IDK. But I do know that it would be very, very hard to believe a woman in the "free pass" situation would really be OK with what that "relationship" would entail.

Closing it off, my grandfather always used to say "There's no free lunch". Well, a "free pass" is basically permission to use someone else as you would a prostitute but not pay. Seems like a free lunch to me, right! Well, no, see above, there's no free lunch. There's a reason you have to pay women to act like a prostitute (and do not have to pay men to do the same), because it's not something that fulfills or is desirable to most women. My grandfather was mostly right, but he missed an important point, there is a "free lunch", we all have it available to us. All you have to do it steal your coworkers sandwich, or dine and dash at your local eatery. Except that both of those actions, while, yes, they do lead to a "free lunch" are decidedly immoral and injure other people. I'm not paying for lunch, someone ELSE is. And that's how I've come to view NSA sex, someone is going to "pay" for this, either the woman via regret and disgust with herself for sleeping with me or me, via cash to a professional. I have plenty of cash, I'd rather pay than "steal" someone else's lunch.

The final thing I'll say, I'm well aware that there are really women out there who are offering a "real" free lunch. We see some women post about it here, where they have no reason to lie. It seems that some posters here have had good experiences with NSA/ONS type sex. The problem is, I have no idea how to identify these women. My W certainly appeared to be one of them during her A and in past relationships too. But she wasn't, she was offering a free lunch with the hopes that you'd give a really good tip after dining. And was deeply hurt, both in the A and in her pre-marriage relationships when guys came, ate the food, and then left without leaving a tip. But if lots of people put out the "free lunch" sign, but some (most of, IMHO) those people are doing that in hopes of getting a great tip for that lunch, how do you know when you see the sign if this lunch is actually free and given as an act of kindness or if it's a ploy to get a big tip? I have no idea. And that's a very fundamental problem I see with any NSA type relationship for a man, doubly so if he's married.

DevastatedDee posted 6/4/2019 08:44 AM

I only regret the sex I had with men who turned out to be assholes. Yes, pretending you want to date me and actually like me just to get laid is an asshole move. Particularly because I would have been totally okay with it being a casual relationship and instead I got the bonus of looking foolish to make the sex regrettable in hindsight. Pretending you're a single man to hook up with me when in fact you are married/dating someone and making me an unwilling accessory in your crimes is an asshole move. Women don't regret sex. They regret sex with an asshole who lied to them. Sex isn't the problem. Sex is a wonderful thing. Sex with no strings is still a wonderful thing. Lies will ruin the best of things.

Rideitout posted 6/4/2019 09:36 AM

I only regret the sex I had with men who turned out to be assholes.

OK, germane to this thread then. Would a man who approached you for NSA who told you "I'm married" and "this is my "free pass" because my wife cheated on you" be an asshole? And would you take him up on the offer?

Particularly because I would have been totally okay with it being a casual relationship and instead I got the bonus of looking foolish to make the sex regrettable in hindsight.

And I did have this happen very, very occasionally in my dating days. Typically a woman would "make it known" she was DTF and good with just that from me and, wow.. No lying/pretending. However, in the few times it happened, all but two of those times, the woman was, in fact, looking for something more and thought that "DTF" was the right way to go about getting it (and I can't fault her logic, that is a good way to get it).

I just have no idea how to discern anymore, looking at my past, between the "Dee version, yes, I'm good with a casual relationship" and the other version "Yes, I'm good with a casual relationship, but only because I'm willing to endure that to possibly get into something else with you".

And, like it or not, I really do believe that this problem is shared between the sexes.

Women don't regret sex. They regret sex with an asshole who lied to them.

And the corollary to that, speaking for myself, I didn't want to lie to you. Telling you the truth was just wildly ineffective. So I learned to lie instead because it worked dramatically better. Men don't want to lie to women to get them in bed, at least I didn't. I did it because it worked, just like AP's do it "because it works".

I don't for one second think that my WW's AP "wanted" to sit around and write love songs and e-mails about their boundless romance for one another. In fact, I can near promise you, he was scouring the Internet for something to "borrow" to send over. What he wanted was a call girl that he didn't have to pay. The "payment" was the lie. But if he could have dispensed with all that and said "I just would love to have more sex than I do today and you're hot, let's bang", I have no doubt that's exactly what he would have done. And the idea of free pass would turn me on a lot more if I could be that honest with a woman; what turns me off the most about it is the fact that someone innocent (hypothetical AP) is just caught in the crossfire between me and my WW. That's not fair, and, unless she's just looking for more sex (which, as we see here, is doubtful, especially "more sex" from a married man), well.. Not to attractive anymore.

hikingout posted 6/4/2019 09:54 AM

Rideitout - no one would try and convince you to take a free pass. We aren't trying to provide merit to that argument. Really, just trying to correct you on a few pointed things.

Like Dee, there is very little in my sexual history I really regret - the only exception to that was the affair. I can't really even think about details of what happened there without my stomach physically hurting.

I think the difference is what I did in my youth, as a single woman, I was free to do in my eyes. The affair was not like that at all - I hurt my husband, the AP's wife, myself...it went against my values as a human and I humiliated and shamed myself as a woman.

But, sexual experimentation, even one guy that I dates that it ended super badly, nah...those were just experiences. Maybe it's because a lot of time passed and I feel emotionally removed from them.

I think you have it all lumped into one thing. I do think there are a lot of young women who will sleep with married men knowingly, and yeah some of them are hot. But, isn't that really a moot point for you? There is no real reason to explore that as a topic in a serious way. I know I took it there with throwing out tinder, but I was just pointing out that landscape has changed and was laughing that we are all so old it hasn't really occurred to us. But, as a serious topic, I don't think it's needed.

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