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Does R depend on how 'bad' the A behavior was?

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The1stWife posted 4/20/2019 09:11 AM

It you have an remorseful Spouse or one who continues ďquestionableĒ behavior - you will continue to suffer, whether the Affair was one minute or one day or one decade.

That is the reality of it all.

What is the CS doing to help you heal and make amends?

Zamboni posted 4/20/2019 09:17 AM

I know everyone has their own opinions on this. Some BSs are capable of forgiving some pretty heinous things. I think those instances are more of the exception rather than the rule. Infidelity ends most marriages.

I think most of us agree that it isnít necessarily the affair itself, itís the horrendous behavior AFTER that many BSs experience that make R impossible. Blameshifting, continuing to LIE, breaking NC, taking the A underground. financial infidelity, etc. are really what kill the M.

Most waywards fail to fall on their sword. They donít always want to do the work to repair the M. It seems like many already had one foot out the door, so they donít want to put the effort into fixing the mess they created.

cancuncrushed posted 4/20/2019 09:33 AM

the affects of infidelity are widespread...you cant even begin to know how it affects the family or how long...

It is individual...its also about the work....what does the cheater do now?

It is long lasting...it leaves scars and will trigger for many many years...You have to know this..of couples R successfully.....they don't deny scars...or triggers...or relapses....they agree to try together regardless...They work together...they want to heal..they face the hurdles together...instead of BS doing it alone.

R is not a perfect fix...it doesn't go away completely forever. Its ongoing...are you clear on what R really is?

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 9:36 AM, April 20th (Saturday)]

hdybrh posted 4/20/2019 10:02 AM

For me there are aspects of her A that really hurt and others that are no big deal (either today or never were) and as stated thatís different for everyone. The more hurtful dynamics I think the harder to R.

This site and other groups have been so helpful both to put our own situations in perspective. Itís doesn't take long to see the wide range of what people are capable of, good and bad.

Hickoryapple posted 4/20/2019 10:07 AM

R is not a perfect fix...it doesn't go away completely forever. Its ongoing...are you clear on what R really is?

I am, thanks. I know things are not going back to how (I thought) they were before, and it will be constant.

What is the CS doing to help you heal and make amends?

So far, CS has supposedly read How to help your spouse heal from infidelity (not sure if that's the exact title), but obv didn't take much on board, as he was still hiding stuff. He answers q when asked, but can't remember some stuff, and gets argumentative and unpleasant when I keep on, or he thinks he's answered a q and I don't think he has. He gets pissed off when I point out that when he now tells me he is being honest and has told me everything, he actually was saying this *exact* thing way before I had confirmation of the A from the OW, which I had to go looking for, and also for 10 months after dday, when he told me about unrelated inappropriate behavior, some of which id actually directly asked about at the time, and since. Ie was lying about being honest, so I can't take anything at face value.

He's making an effort to keep me in the loop with his work activities, but not always as promptly as he could. He's finally arranged another IC which he doesn't intend lying to re the A, and read the book the guy suggested. (Seven principles of a successful marriage, or whatever, which annoys me, because it's not two way communication which has been our problem!) Due to work, he's only had one session about six weeks ago, his second is this week.

He's making more effort to suggest and arrange things for us to do together and as a family. He's not looked at porn solo for a while (a bit before dday), at least he says not.

I have a family locator app shared on phones, and can monitor his devices and email.

I'm not sure what else can be done from my side. He'll read things I send him (I think) but hasn't looked up anything else himself apart from the books mentioned above, and a couple of 'why men cheat' articles right after dday. He comes up with reasons which might have caused him to cheat, but can't answer why he felt it was OK to do so at the time, or why he didn't think certain things were inappropriate at the time (messaging and asking colleague he fantasized sexually about out for a drink alone), when he has said it would be inappropriate if I'd done it. He doesn't think that's what the IC can help with.?!?

He denied or lied about *everything* as far as he could, so when he told me about the other inappropriate behavior (visited a sex club, held hands with colleague which he only does with me/kids, messaging with other colleague, fantasising sexually about her and initiating drinks alone but insisting there was nothing in it) I have the distinct feeling that he has only admitted to the low level stuff in an attempt to 'prove' he's being honest about everything. When in fact there would be no benefit to him admitting anything more serious because he's lied so much about there being nothing else...

It's impossible to believe that this time he's actually telling the truth about there being nothing else to know, as he said it so any times before. He'll be working away abroad for four months straight again soon. I'll never know what he's doing. I feel in limbo, just waiting to see how I make it through that.

[This message edited by Hickoryapple at 10:08 AM, April 20th (Saturday)]

BraveSirRobin posted 4/20/2019 10:21 AM

It's just so hard to define "average" here. Some affairs adhere closer to the cheater's handbook than others, but there are consistent elements through almost all of them. It seems to me that the only universal characteristics of successful/happy R are a genuinely remorseful WS who is willing to do the work and a BS whose personal deal breakers (which vary enormously on this site) were never triggered. If both those elements aren't in place, R becomes a truce where the BS is able to stay and live in the M with some level of permanent detachment.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 10:23 AM, April 20th (Saturday)]

Perchy posted 4/20/2019 10:44 AM

Hickoryapple, I feel like you are describing that you still feel a reluctance from your WH, and that is standing in the way of R for you both. No matter how bad the A was, if one party is reluctant, or dragging feet or not all in, thatís going to shed doubts on your confidence in R. Do you think thatís what you are feeling?

sisoon posted 4/20/2019 10:52 AM

Gently, Hickoryapple, I think at least some of your discomfort(?) is due to your H's lack of total participation in R.

*****

I guess one could say I've been happily in R, but it took at least 4 years, and even the, that 'happily' has a lot of irony attached to it. My W may have been an 'ideal WS' ... but she still was a WS (or, 'is an fWS'). We'd both prefer she had stayed faithful.

*****

** posting as a member **

The more one is authentic, the better for the person and for the people around that person. The more one goes after what s/he genuinely wants (instead of what authority figures say s/he should want), the better for that person and for the people around that person.

It's incontrovertible that some people have gotten authentic only after d-day. That's 'after,' not 'because of.'

If you think getting authentic requires gratitude for the A, you don't understand this yet.

*****

** posting as a member **

What do you mean by 'happily in R'?

Really? This is a real question of one having spent the amount of time that you have on this site?
It's best to keep in mind that we're all individuals here, and we're not all the same. Each of us has the right to and must decide what he wants from R and what he wants his M to be.

Further, some of us - including me - believe that R works best if the partners agree on what it will be and how they'll recognize progress or lack thereof. Believe me, the key indicators may not be the same for everybody.

So, yeah, that's a real question.

idissent posted 4/20/2019 17:19 PM

I think most of us agree that it isnít necessarily the affair itself, itís the horrendous behavior AFTER that many BSs experience that make R impossible. Blameshifting, continuing to LIE, breaking NC, taking the A underground. financial infidelity, etc. are really what kill the M.

^^^ THIIIIISSS

I think this is what youíre experiencing. So sorry heís putting you through this.

Hickoryapple posted 4/20/2019 19:22 PM

I feel like you are describing that you still feel a reluctance from your WH, and that is standing in the way of R for you both. No matter how bad the A was, if one party is reluctant, or dragging feet or not all in, thatís going to shed doubts on your confidence in R. Do you think thatís what you are feeling?

Very likely. I'm not sure if *reluctance* is the word. Possibly *disinterest*? Around dday he spoke of having carried the guilt around for a long, long time, and being relieved to have it out, in a way. But he's also said on a number of occasions since that after he ghosted her he didn't think of her again, hence why it hadn't occurred to him how some of his subsequent behaviour was inappropriate or potentially dodgy. I don't get that.

I'm immersed in this daily, he only has to confront it when I bring it up. Apart from that, it's pretty much out of his mind from what I can see.

DevastatedDee posted 4/20/2019 19:25 PM

He denied or lied about *everything* as far as he could, so when he told me about the other inappropriate behavior (visited a sex club, held hands with colleague which he only does with me/kids, messaging with other colleague, fantasising sexually about her and initiating drinks alone but insisting there was nothing in it) I have the distinct feeling that he has only admitted to the low level stuff in an attempt to 'prove' he's being honest about everything. When in fact there would be no benefit to him admitting anything more serious because he's lied so much about there being nothing else...

It's impossible to believe that this time he's actually telling the truth about there being nothing else to know, as he said it so any times before. He'll be working away abroad for four months straight again soon. I'll never know what he's doing. I feel in limbo, just waiting to see how I make it through that.

It's almost certain that he has not told you everything and that this is the tip of the iceberg. I think a BS usually knows it when that's the case. We feel it. My WH swore up and down that I knew "everything", even admitting stuff I hadn't found on my own. I tried to tell myself that he didn't have to tell me that stuff if he wasn't telling me everything, so surely he was? Of course, after we split, I found out from a close friend that he had tried to hook up with another friend's young adult daughter. I knew that friendship had broken down, but I had believed lies about why. So no, I didn't know everything. I am 100% positive that I still don't and never will. He was probably cheating the whole relationship. It's hard to wrap my head around how this crap could have gone on under my nose for so long.

So yeah, trust your gut on this. You don't know everything and you probably never will. And this makes true R absolutely impossible.

OwningItNow posted 4/20/2019 23:22 PM

It is like you are the unhappy one and he puts up with you. I would not tolerate that dynamic. He acts this way because you do not demand better. How do you demand better?

You have to be willing to lose the M to save it. Ask me how I know.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:22 PM, April 20th (Saturday)]

dancin-gal posted 4/20/2019 23:40 PM

I donít think there is any time line on A recovery .. some of the authorities have said after 3 year things are much better .. the first year you have the movies in your head. .. the lies to deal with , the anger rage ., the second year you have a better time not such deep triggers ..3 year you have triggers but they last a short time and much easier to deal with .. the 3 rd year you can function ..

Barregirl posted 4/21/2019 06:41 AM

I think R depends more on the WS owning their shit and doing the work following dday and the BS willingness to extend grace than how crappy the A behavior was. Any A is awful and the worst pain is the one that is happening to you. So whether your WH had an LTA or a ONS, it's all bad and all about him. The key is going to be if he is willing to put in the effort to figure our how to be a safe partner and make you and your M his priority. And how willing you are to accept his work and safety.
In my own situation, I wasn't particularly foggy, went NC on dday, gave my BH access to everything, went to IC, and started researching healing from an affair. I had a purely PA, but never did anything with AP that my BH wasn't given. I gave my BH any detail that he wanted (no TT). I did blameshift for a couple of weeks, but after reading here, realized that I was wrong and apologized for that. My BH and our M are my #1 priority now, and I truly think that this is why my BH and I are working toward R in our second year.

As the BS, you get to set your boundaries and requirements for R. If you feel that you can never extend grace to your WH for his A behaviors, then you have your answer. But overall, I think that all A behavior is horrific and R is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

Northerngal posted 4/21/2019 09:18 AM

Dday 1 was New Yearís Eve 2013/14. That was the EA confession. We had a year of pure hell. Why? Because he was lying, it was a pa, and he said ea so he wouldnít have to fire her, deal with shit that was fallout. He acted like such a hero because had confessed. Smh. So after the second confession, which was because he realized we were not doing well and maybe the lies were the reason, he told me everything. Reset the clock to zero. Horrible thing, truly.

So that was fall of 2014, coming up on 5 years. And we are just out of the weeds in the last few months. Years of projecting, silly lies, image control, insecurities were hard to change. But with therapy and a total acceptance that every choice he made was his stupid choice and that each one had made his life worse, the shit finally lifted.

I should have filed for divorce immediately after dday 1, because we might have gotten here quicker. I was basically emotionally tortured for 2 years (from when the affair started until full disclosure) and I still get angry. He talked himself up that whole time about how great he was - that he would never fuck a coworker, that he ended the ea, that he confessed to me, all these noble things, but always skirting around the truth.. And it manipulated me and fucked with me and truly screwed with my decision making and broke me completely. Another shoe always dropped, just as my gut told me. I really resent that still.

But he is a different person now. So am I. Heís a better person. Iím not sure about me, but I tolerate nothing anymore and I refuse to indulge his neediness.

OwningItNow posted 4/21/2019 09:43 AM

Hickoryapple, I saw on another thread that you do not believe in IC and feel you can look at advice and see what fits instead. In my experience, most people are not very good at that, but maybe it will work for you.

In that case, I hope you notice that almost everyone on this thread has told you that a WS and his/her remorseful or unremorseful actions have the biggest impact on R. Your WH does not seem remorseful; instead, he seems to have agreed to stop cheating. When someone tries to stay married to an unremorseful spouse, things don't ever get better.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:44 AM, April 21st (Sunday)]

StillLivin posted 4/21/2019 13:03 PM

While I believe that the initial pain is still the same sometimes for various types of affairs, how long it takes to process can depend on different factors as well as the individual. Initially, divorce seemed harder, but I healed faster once the divorce was final. For the most part I was ok after about a year and a few months. The timeline for friends who went through reconcile has taken longer for friends who didn't divorce. While they are still occasionally triggering 6 years out, I haven't triggered in years. Some of them had spouses who were pretty great pre-A, some are with POS (in my opinion), that weren't worth being married to even before their A. So I get it, reconciliation, when you had a relationship worth allowing the WS to try and salvage.

Hickoryapple posted 4/21/2019 19:55 PM

Your WH does not seem remorseful; instead, he seems to have agreed to stop cheating. When someone tries to stay married to an unremorseful spouse, things don't ever get better.

I don't know what remorseful looks like then. How would I be able to tell? He's doing what is asked of him, but doesn't take any initiative in trying to find out why he felt it was OK for him to make that decision. "Because I was selfish." is his endpoint explanation. But to me that's not an actual explanation. Is that it?

He makes more effort to suggest things as a family, but that doesn't change the core values which allowed him to cheat, does it?

The only time I've seen him with tears in his eyes are early on before dday when ppl on another forum were telling me he'd cheated, based on circumstantial evidence I had at the time, and one time near dday when I was unraveling the lies he was telling me about his communication with the whore. At no other time has he looked upset. He says he has been, and is remorseful, but I haven't seen it.

I mentioned this to him and asked why he doesn't read around, ask q etc. He said it's because he knows why (he was selfish) and it's me who needs to set the boundaries as its me who was hurt. (I set a bunch before dday, one of which was 'no lying' - he was obviously still lying, so what's the point?)

I don't know what to say. Is 'I was selfish' an answer? Do the best recovering fWS read up on stuff to understand their previous mindset, or just change their ways moving forward?

cocoplus5nuts posted 4/21/2019 20:13 PM

Infidelity ends most marriages.

I don't think this is true. I have read that most Ms remain after infidelity. Now, whether or not true R happens is something else.

A remorseful CP does everything he can to help his P heal. He tells the truth about everything. He takes full responsibility for what he did. He listens to and answers the same questions over and over without anger or defensiveness or dismissiveness or blameshifting. He goes to IC and really works on himself, figuring out the deep down whys. He works on himself to change that he has better coping skills and boundaries. Doing more around the house, being more loving and attentive, planning family time isn't part of it. That's all superficial.

Being selfish is a good start, maybe, but it's too simple. I can be very selfish. I don't cheat. He needs to dig deeper.

gmc94 posted 4/21/2019 20:30 PM

Agree with everyone on the "it's what happens AFTER dday that kills the M". Of course, this assumes the BS (or the WS for that matter) don't immediately decide to D.

I have the distinct feeling that he has only admitted to the low level stuff in an attempt to 'prove' he's being honest about everything. When in fact there would be no benefit to him admitting anything more serious because he's lied so much

He's doing what is asked of him, but doesn't take any initiative
Mine too. And, as much as I may love him, my sense is that we will ultimately end up divorcing.
Someone recently had a thread about superficial R... I don't recall the details of the thread w/o looking at it again, but the phrase really struck me.

"Doing more around the house, being more loving and attentive, planning family time isn't part of it. That's all superficial."

I think superficial R is when the WH stops cheating (at least for the time being), but doesn't do any deep deep digging. My WH will dig on the surface (sometimes), but anything that goes beyond that is just not done. He takes ZERO initiative. Example: Thursday I get a text that he's looking forward to me coming home for the weekend, as he's has some revelations he'd like to share. Guess what. It's after 8pm on Sunday.... not one word from him about any of it. The A, the M, his "revelation", etc. - this, IMO, is "superficial R" (which is funny in that I have not yet committed to R). Before the PA, during the PA, and after the dday, my WH has always been great around the house - but he still cheated and lied and I had no idea. The fact that he still does the dishes is irrelevant...

Sometimes reading SI can really get me down. Seeing the other WS who are on a journey and sharing it (both WW and WH) and then I compare to my own WH and think What the everloving frack?

I think Cocoplus5 (and other posters) have given good examples of what R (or "R material" looks like. My WH is NOT doing those things... and it sounds like your WH is not either.

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