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In sickness and in health?

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cocoplus5nuts posted 4/17/2019 07:03 AM

Wow,silver! That's rough! I'm glad you and your son are not living with him. How horrible that he got raped! Why is he sent to jail instead of a mental health facility?

It's obvious that you care about him and want to help him. But, your and your son's safety comes first. Regardless of mental illness, DV should never be tolerated. That's where it ends.

deephurt posted 4/17/2019 08:45 AM

Youíve done more than enough to try to help him but he is the one thatís tanking his progress. He is responsible for that and you have no responsibility to stick around to try to help. Itís on him and always has been. He is dangerous and I would get my kid as far away as possible from him for both your safety.

Itís on him to fix himself and the way he is right now is dangerous for both you and your son. I would start the d process and full custody. Save yourself and your son.

cancuncrushed posted 4/17/2019 09:01 AM

This is my battle of 5 years..

We had been dealing with an A for 10 years...WH behavior was increasing worse...more women...in the most cruel way...taunting me...flaunting it...the damage to our marriage was not repairable...

Then we learned WH is alcoholic..and this had caused brain damage...which explains some of his bad behavior...I have had many roller coaster emotions...

I have tried to live with it...I stayed another 5 years...taking him to specialists...making all the appointments...I never missed one...he fought us...he cancelled appts...he stopped his meds...he relapsed many times...he was very angry and blamed me for his not being able to drink...HE WANTED TO DRINK

My story is about alcoholism...I called it many things....and this is what it is...it is his choice...it is his issues...I cant stop him...and he continues today...and we are DIngÖ

This is a common path in chronic alcoholism...Its still hard to recognize as its growing...WH left me for a new OW, 11.5 months ago...with no word...no conversation...I found him after 3 weeks...he chooses her...he chooses to continue drinking...he is able to work for now...His drs say he is safe to drive and continue on...

My conscience is clear...I made huge efforts...I cant save him...

You cant control everything...you cant make them...you cant change them...sometimes, you can only accept..and save yourself..this was hard to accept..after 35 years, I had to let him go...I couldn't fix this.....we really are two separate people...we are no longer one.

Its frustrating x1000... I have often said...I came here to SI, because my WH had an A....little did I know just how self destructive he was...NOw I know he is NPD, he is alcoholic, he has brain damage, he is serial cheater...and chronic liar...he is dishonest and hides money....it wasn't just an A.

PEople have to want to change...they have to accept and want help...and these things are way above my pay grade. When he does decide to seek help, its not me who can give it to him.

Another point: DR Phils says, You can be his caretaker, or you can be his lover...you can never be both....I truly believe this...when WH health became my entire life, I resented him...I stopped loving him for many reasons, and I was no longer attracted to him, for many reasons... I literally felt all of this...trying to help him...

and finally, what about the progression? things don't always improve...sometimes, they worsen...where is your line? what is safe? what is considerate of your mental health? nothing stays the same...you cant settle in and believe, ok, this is it...

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 9:34 AM, April 17th (Wednesday)]

Carissima posted 4/17/2019 09:55 AM

This man has put you through hell for years.

You have a responsibility to maintain a safe place to raise your son, somewhere he can be secure and happy. From what you've described this is not any place your husband is.

I think you've got to let him go. You'll be healthier and happier without him, he's a grown man - it's time for him to take responsibility for his own life!

silverhopes posted 4/18/2019 03:20 AM

The delivery messages "Do ya really want a piece of this?" and internally, it does the same thing as Anthony Hopkins' line in The Edge, "I will kill the bear!"

Thank you for the movie rec, NotTheManIWas! As an Anthony Hopkins fan, I know what I'm watching next! (Right after the Fantastic Beasts films, anyway, haven't seen those yet either).

Edie, thank you so much for your compassion. I wish there were a happy tears emoji... You make me feel safe and judge myself a little less harshly in all of this...

Do you or he know why he decompensated again?

I suspect it was a bunch of different factors happening at the same time. Part of it was him being irresponsible with his health - he refuses to see a doctor even when he has physical pains, as well as refuses to generally take better care of his health in terms of eating and sleeping right and going to the therapy center to retrieve his meds in a timely fashion. Also, he is still sometimes in denial about what he did and tries to foist responsibility on me, which I am guessing doesn't sit well with him deep down inside, because he keeps trying to apologize in between those times. Another huge part was that his doctor/psychiatrist approved his usage of medical marijuana - only for the judge to contradict that and say that he was no longer allowed to use it (which I agree with, considering the sheer cost of it, and that it seemed like more of a crutch than an aid). The trouble imo was that the courts did not offer him support in quitting his marijuana addiction - I firmly believe marijuana can be a mental addiction and needs just as much treatment as any other. That option wasn't offered to him. He has poor coping skills and I believe struggles with learning new and healthier ones (which should NOT be a deterrent to him trying to learn them anyway). Add in two more factors - the holidays are more difficult when he isn't allowed to spend it with his family, and he happened to get an inheritance of ~$12K at the end of November - and it was the perfect recipe for disaster. He wasn't acting responsibly, his symptoms were getting worse with stress, and the courts didn't have checks and balances in place when he needed them most. That's my guess, anyway.

Another sibling is an alcoholic, and again there is the trying to work out which is the condition and which is the person. Here it is more clear cut- like your WH, there is more of a Jekyll and Hyde differentiation.

YES! This is a perfect descriptor of what it's like! One side of him will completely contradict the other, and he acts as though he has gaps in his memory at times (I don't know if this is manipulation, true brain trauma, or both). I am sorry you've been dealing with this too. It's not easy.

I tend to now only ever agree to deal with the Jekyll persona, and tell the Hyde one Iíll speak to them when sober.

I love this boundary. I might adopt it as well, more consciously. It seems like the safest for everyone. How do you reinforce this boundary, if the Hyde persona tries to push it?

Iím glad you and your son are safe and donít have to negotiate the condition on a daily basis, but how very worrying the jail conditions sound.

Yes indeed. I am happy that I can keep my son safe, and I know positively that I am doing the right thing by him. I *can't* let my husband come home the way he is, because of the negative impact it would have on Lil Silver. At the same time, jail isn't safe, and I feel like as a family member I should be telling someone this so that they can keep Mr Silver (and other inmates who might become victims to this rapist) safer.

Are you getting support from such groups or other external means? Somewhere where you can discuss your experiences and concerns?

At the moment no, but I'm thinking about starting to attend Al-Anon meetings and see if that helps me go the direction of finding appropriate support for this situation. I'm terrified of asking for help again, but it's time, I think.

Thank you Edie and everyone else who wrote to offer support or compassion. I'll write more tomorrow. Gotta rest now. Hope you all are doing the same and taking good care of yourselves. Thank you for helping me again.

OrdinaryDude posted 4/18/2019 09:35 AM

As a BS, I no longer constrain myself to our vows, I can D at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

Those vows were null and void the very moment she crossed that line (too bad it took me years to realize this), and thatís something that no amount of R (or mental illness) will ever change.

If my WW were to go off the rails so to speak, I would see that she got the treatment she needs, but I would not allow any abusive or wayward behavior at all, that would be a fast D, no matter what the root cause.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 9:57 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

silverhopes posted 4/20/2019 13:34 PM

Itís also hard if you are not sure if his behaviours are solely schizophrenia related (not that youíve said that).

I agree, it's difficult to separate the two, especially when they're occurring at the same time. My former therapist used to say that I needed to look through everything he did with the lens of his mental illness and ascribed a lot of responsibility to it. I disagree (and I'm saying this as a person with mental illness myself) - while his mental illness is very significant, it does not control everything about him. Lundy Bancroft was the one who convinced me that mental illness and abusiveness are two separate things - when he's in a bad place, it can certainly exacerbate the abusiveness, but his underlying attitudes and beliefs are where his abusiveness comes from. So his behaviors are a huge mix of different factors. I figure - I can encourage his health w.r.t. his schizophrenia, encourage therapy and working through his burdens w.r.t. the abuse he himself suffered throughout his life, AND call out the abuses he inflicts upon me. I can do each of these things.

Iíve read somewhere that they are having significant success in the latest schizophrenia treatment programmes, is he getting the best help around ? Is the burden of concern for his care and wellbeing shared by a wider family circle?

Sadly no. I'm thinking it's not something we have access to, as we're both on MediCal. But what I can do is work with his network of support (his caseworker, his psychiatrist, and the court attorneys) to try to improve the care he's receiving, if they'll be willing to work with me. At the moment I've been unsuccessful in making any sort of headway, but I'm not going to stop calling and leaving messages of ideas, requests, and information about him. This is how I'll use my voice.

His network of support includes one of my family members and none of his.

Find ways of limiting his contact with you. Donít be so available. Perhaps itís like dealing with a toddler- pay attention (reward) to the good behaviour, withdraw from the bad behaviour.

Yes! Very yes!

Might it be possible to seek IC to help you understand, position and reinforce your boundaries?

I don't feel safe sharing with my IC. I have been slowly opening up to my psychiatrist, though. On Thursday, I finally got to share some of the anger I've been dealing with and ask if I was playing the victim or being unreasonable to be so angry. I can hardly wait until our next appointment - she makes me feel safe as no health professional ever has. I will definitely ask her for help on reinforcing my boundaries at our next appointment.

Why is he sent to jail instead of a mental health facility?

Initially, he was. During the holidays, we called the police twice, and the first time we specifically requested that they take him to the psych ward at the general hospital, which they did. But he had them discharge him into an ADU the very next day, rather than stay and reach baseline on his meds, and when he symptoms acted up and he became suspicious of the people at the ADU, he checked himself out. The entire thing, from hospital to ADU to out again, was under two days. Where we live, it is a huge struggle to get someone committed for a stay longer than 3 days. So the next time we called the police, we didn't advocate for him to go back to the hospital.

Within the jail, he was in the psych pod, or the place for inmates with mental illnesses. That was where he was raped. I heard from him earlier this week that he's back in that same pod, and the rapist was there too, but was transferred two or three days ago to a different facility, to general population. It sounds like he had been stealing from the other inmates. It hurts to imagine how many other inmates he might have assaulted too.

Youíve done more than enough to try to help him but he is the one thatís tanking his progress.

You're right. He's the one who ignores suggestions meant to help him. He needs to decide for himself to fully commit to the process of getting healthy.

You cant control everything...you cant make them...you cant change them...sometimes, you can only accept..and save yourself..this was hard to accept..

This is true. In the quieter moments, in the absence of my abusers, I feel a great relief that I can heal in peace.

I'm sorry that your husband abused you for so long, in so many different ways. I can't even imagine how much pain he brought into your life. How are you doing now, cancuncrushed? How are you healing?

You have a responsibility to maintain a safe place to raise your son, somewhere he can be secure and happy.

I completely agree. I think this is the thought, more than any other, that keeps me strong enough to enforce my boundaries. My son deserves better.

If my husband continues to push my boundaries and be abusive, I won't be shy about telling him that. Right before I hang up. I will remind him of the reality that his son deserves to live a healthier life. I don't know how he'll respond to reality, but I will acknowledge it and not let it be ignored.

As for leaving my husband, at this point I am waiting for the inevitable time when he'll meet another girl and start skirting boundaries with her. As long as I ignore it and don't try to stop it, he'll probably wind up choosing her. It's so strange - I came here years ago because his infidelities were hurting me, and now I consider that the lesser evil to his abusiveness (it wasn't always that way). Now, it might well be the way to freedom. If he chooses someone else again, then I'm betting he'll find some way of blaming me, like he always does, and then he'll leave with his ego intact. If he feels like he "won" by leaving me, and more importantly feels that addictive happy flush of "new love", then he'll be less likely to come back to bother me again.

StillLivin posted 4/20/2019 15:46 PM

I don't know your particular circumstances , so I'll speak on my own. Even though I didn't directly divorce because of my Xs personality disorder.
Just because a person has a mental illness, doesnt automatically mean they will abuse/cheat. So my first point is that if they are cheating and/or abusing, that is not definitively part of the mental illness, that's a choice. However, some mental illnesses trump the above, such as severe schizophrenia. So I'd have to reassess. Again, talking about my situation.
My X had the indicators for almost all the marks as being a passive aggressive. So, obviously he could have changed his behavior if he'd wanted to.
I divorced my X because he was becoming physically abusive, and he cheated. Though I might have divorced him, he broke the original covenant by breaking several vows which do not have anything to do with his personality disorder.
Had he been forthright about his disorder, I'd have dropped his ass right after that date and never looked back, so he also married me under false pretenses, thus a situation where an annulment definitu could have been pursued.
Alzheimers is one mental issue that could be construed under "in sickness and in health", but any form of abuse and any mental health issue be damned, I'm out of there too. Neglect, cheating, mental abuse, verbal abuse, financially infidelity, all fall under abuse.

[This message edited by StillLivin at 3:53 PM, April 20th (Saturday)]

Charlie99 posted 4/20/2019 23:39 PM

Iím going to weigh in here and say-mental illness does not give someone else the right to abuse another person. Yes, there are shades of grey, but cheating is lying, on a daily basis. Those ill, really mentally ill, do not have the capacity to keep up the facade of daily lies to those who know them best, when they cannot even think straight enough to take their meds, or are having delusions. I have a mental illness, a couple actually, they are no longer debilitating, but even when they were, there is no way I could have maintained a tangled web of lies to deceive another person. And just because I have a mental illness, it doesnt give me the right to abuse people in other ways, such as verbally, physically or financially.

Alzheimers, schizophrenia and even bipolar are all chronic conditions, and realistically a person severely suffering these has limited capacity to perpetrate the harm that infidelity does.

Addiction and personality disorders are a whole other ball game, which I am coming to terms with. Are they seeking treatment, or going thru the motions? Are you finding yourself doing things you would never normally do, just to keep them happy?
In regards to sickness and in health, if love is no longer being served at the table, walk away. His needing treatment cannot come at the cost to your own(or your sons) safety. Just because someone is mentally ill it does not mean they have the right to abuse you in any way, shape or form. Excluding the above chronic illness , where the person is completely unaware of what they are doing and/or lost touch with reality- harm is not a sign of love.

You have every right to walk away. You have done everything you can.

[This message edited by Charlie99 at 11:43 PM, April 20th (Saturday)]

Carissima posted 4/21/2019 08:53 AM

silverhopes, you are a obviously a warm, caring, intelligent, highly articulate, funny person, this is clearly obvious from your many posts here in all the forums.

You have written very clearly of your personal struggles with mental health. It was me who wrote about providing a safe place for your son to live and be secure, to be happy. In order for your son to feel this way you also have to feel good about yourself. Therefore you have to prioritise your own mental health, whatever that looks like for you just now. You need to be strong and healthy.

Your husband is a grown man, it may sound harsh but he makes his own choices and has to face the consequences. No-one can make him take his meds every day unless he lives the rest of his life in some kind of an institution. I know you still care about him but he is not your responsibility!

cocoplus5nuts posted 4/21/2019 19:42 PM

When I was in Cali, it seemed to me to be pretty easy to get someone committed for more than 3 days. Does it matter where in Cali?

devotedman posted 4/22/2019 10:55 AM

silverhopes, hello! I have read (almost?) all of your past posts. I have one thing to suggest:

1. Leave.

Some other suggestions follow:

2. Let him find someone else and leave with his ego intact. This option isn't so great because if he gets dumped you'll find him right back at your door.3. It is okay to feel badly for him, but he's making his own mess and having to deal with it.

And, mostly:

4. His health, mental or otherwise, is neither your fault nor your responsibility.
5. Your son's health _is_ your responsibility. He's watching and learning what is okay and not okay behavior in a M.

You've given this a good shot. I know that you have. I am also aware that you have some mental health issues yourself. Like in an airplane, where they tell you to put on your own oxygen mask and then help others, you need to do the same. Look to your own mental, physical, and emotional health, then look to your son's, and finally, others. _If_ you can. In this case I think that you cannot.

Wanting to help him is admirable, it really is. It shows commitment and a whole host of other good impulses. But, he neither wants nor respects that help.

I could go on, but it would just be more ways of saying the same thing, so I won't.

One question, though. Your said:

My own symptoms have worsened too during this period, but I'm not allowed to talk about that.

You need not answer this publicly, but who "allows" you to talk about something or not? And, is that person qualified and justified and _able_ to tell you what to talk about or not? Again, no public answer needed but you should answer these questions _to_ _yourself_.

Just saying that your own symptoms are worsening during this time is enough, for me, to say that you need to get away from these "bad" stimuli and get yourself healthy, and stay that way, for yourself and your son.

Good luck, silverhopes.

Justsomeguy posted 4/22/2019 18:08 PM

Ok.i am going to weigh in on this one, but I may be way off base. My STBXWW did not give me or my health a second thought when she repeatedly had unprotected sex with her POSOM. she even told me that she weighed the risks and thought it was ok. Note: he chested on her multiple times while she cheated on me. She even told me that it was no big deal since people didn't die of AIDS anymore. BTW I'm good to go. Now add another layer to this. She has never once nursed me nor taken care of mevwhrn I was in need. On the contrary she has treated me with contempt when I have been sick, FOO issues. So what loyalty do I owe exactly? Mental illness is just another illness. How codependant would I be if I sacrificed yet again for someone completely unworthy?

Justsomeguy posted 4/22/2019 18:08 PM

Ok.i am going to weigh in on this one, but I may be way off base. My STBXWW did not give me or my health a second thought when she repeatedly had unprotected sex with her POSOM. she even told me that she weighed the risks and thought it was ok. Note: he chested on her multiple times while she cheated on me. She even told me that it was no big deal since people didn't die of AIDS anymore. BTW I'm good to go. Now add another layer to this. She has never once nursed me nor taken care of mevwhrn I was in need. On the contrary she has treated me with contempt when I have been sick, FOO issues. So what loyalty do I owe exactly? Mental illness is just another illness. How codependant would I be if I sacrificed yet again for someone completely unworthy?

DevastatedDee posted 4/22/2019 21:52 PM

She even told me that it was no big deal since people didn't die of AIDS anymore.

WOW. I am SO glad you're away from that person.

silverhopes posted 4/26/2019 00:00 AM

I want to leave

Edie posted 4/26/2019 00:47 AM

It sounds like it is time, Silver. Time to look after you.

Weíre here to support.

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