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11 year update

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sisoon posted 4/6/2019 17:51 PM

Sew, I completely disagree that infidelity can improve a marriage.
No one in his/her right mind says an A improves an M. As marriageredux says, it's the work you put into the M that improves it.

Don't get caught up in the post hoc, propter hoc fallacy.

The idea that reconciling oneself to having sexually shared ones spouse somehow improves a marriage is to me, ludicrous.
People like sex. People are imperfect. Demanding perfection in this one thing smacks of unnecessary fear - fear of women and fear of other men. I know that's counter-intuitive, but it's how I see it, perhaps because I can't possibly compete with my W's ap.

Every Male BS needs to reconcile himself to having shared his WS/WSO sexually. It happened. There's no way around it. D doesn't erase that.

Reconciling with the WS is an entirely different matter.

Sometimes a post bears repeating. I think Bigger's post on 'D or R but stay out of limbo' is worth rereading.

*****

Yeah, a bad M can't be improved by infidelity, but infidelity happens in good Ms, too. Sometimes R is the best choice.

*****

Again, I'm sorry your W threw your M away, Wish.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:54 PM, April 6th (Saturday)]

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/6/2019 18:25 PM

Thank you notthemaniwas, itís very difficult to admit to ourselves itís over and that we picked the wrong Woman especially when we are in shock. Iím hoping the next generation will read this and consider their choice carefully.
Some here say that people can change so Iím crossing my fingers. I believe infidelity reveals a character flaw that is eri
Irreversible. The lack of moral character theyíve revieled cannot be treated by counciling. If they had the power to control themselves they would have done so when they were tempted to commit adultery.
Those who ate attempting reconciliation are still waiting for the other shoe to drop.although they may not admit it here. I slept with one eye open for years until the shoe dropped again.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 6:30 PM, April 6th (Saturday)]

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/6/2019 18:41 PM

Every Male BS needs to reconcile himself to having shared his WS/WSO sexually. It happened. There's no way around it. D doesn't erase that.

Complete and utter BS!

totallydumb posted 4/6/2019 19:02 PM

Wish, I believe that statement to be a profound truth. The idea that reconciling oneself to having sexually shared ones spouse somehow improves a marriage is to me, ludicrous.

AGREED!

fareast posted 4/6/2019 19:19 PM

Thanks sisoon.

Wishiwasnthereto:

I respect your opinion for you. This has been your journey. And you certainly have a right to your opinion that every WW who ever committed adultery has an irredeemable character flaw and R is impossible. I have lived the opposite reality for forty years with a woman who cheated, worked on herself, and became a better person and a great partner and a fantastic mother. I am so glad I eventually gave her a chance at R. We each have a right to our reality. For me, I am so glad I never allowed myself to believe as you do. I have slept extremely well for forty years

NotTheManIwas posted 4/6/2019 19:20 PM

I slept with one eye open for years until the shoe dropped again.

Good grief, man... you just said in one simple statement a summary of the state of R for so many of us. And I'm also betting many feel as I do that even though we've agreed to it, real R is a fool's errand.

amethyst0323 posted 4/6/2019 19:29 PM

Ame, not to minimize what youíve been through but my post was specifically about Women cheating. When Men cheat itís usually for sex. When a Woman cheats I believe itís more emotional and much more damaging to the marriage. Both are wrong of course. If I ever get married again there certainly wouldnít be an second chances. Best of luck to you.

I can understand what you are saying here. My husband's affair was more about emotion than sex though and there are a number of WW's (hiking out springs to mind immediately) on here that are putting the work in and fixing their marriage. So it can be done.

I hope you find happiness again, nobody deserves this to happen to them.

GotTheTshirtToo posted 4/6/2019 19:31 PM

I also saw my kids (3 and 5 years old at DDay) through to 16+.

My XW was a teacher, I travelled including overnight stays - who would they have lived with 80% of the time; the woman who cared so little for them that as she, under no pressure, announced had exposed them to the risk of abduction by being out of sight and earshot of her precious kids so that she could savour ten minutes on her back with her best friend's husband.

The marriage ended on DDay, attempts to start another relationship foundered fatally some 27 months later when our doctor asked me to tell him the full list of those I was having sex with - and didn't query my reply that my wife was my only sex partner. I assume she'd already been to see him.

We kept the facade well enough that my kids (now in their 40s) say that they had no idea of the situation. XW continued to lie and cheat - I found emotional and physical solace with the most beautiful woman I ever met (think Sgt Pepper Anderson).

Eventually the financial and social benefits of staying together waned, the kids were mid-teens and needing us less and less and I decided that the balance had moved to being better for me and the kids if I terminated the farce. So I did.

Looking back - it worked for me, and, as far as I can tell, for my kids. Probably effectively screwed my X's life but I can't find it in me to consider that a downside.

Now I'm content, retired, comfortably active, financially stable and sharing my life with a woman better than I deserve and a glorious mutt. And my conscience is clear. My kids were protected, they were loved (at least by their father) and they had a good childhood with finance enough for foreign holidays etc.etc..

B implies that marriage is more important than parenting there is IMHO a LOT wrong in sacrificing your most limited and prized asset Ė TIME Ė to a dead-end relationship that you donít have any intent or belief in improving.- I disagree. But I didn't see the (in my case 12) years as sacrificial - they were sometimes unhappy, but there was much fun with the kids, I had a successful career, we lived well, the bad elements were always finite and I achieved the goals I had.

As I see it

My marriage was my choice - you can argue a very bad choice but my choice and it lead me, eventually, to "sunny uplands".
Being born was not my kids choice - having children is always, ultimately, a selfish (which may be good or bad) choice made by the parents.

I believe that all our actions carry consequences - I owed my kids protection, care, love and the best start I could provide. They owe me nothing.

And please - nothing above says that anyone else should make the choices I made - every situation is unique. But sometimes not opting for D or R immediately works.


GotTheTshirtToo posted 4/6/2019 19:56 PM

As to whether Ws can change.

Some can - some can't. Unfortunately the only way to find out for sure is to hang around until the second shoe drops or life expires.

My XW's behaviour over c. thirty years, together with information about family background that I learnt once we were married, fits, and only fits, the professional determination of psychopathy. There is no way known to science by which a useless amygdala can be made to function as it does in the "normal" 99% of the population. And there are other situations which are effectively untreatable.

AIUI - Some people do have the ability to change. We make our decisions in our subconscious (and then fib to ourselves about "free will") but those decisions are made based on our inherited genes (nature) and our lifetime experiences (nurture). Imagine, if you will, a road - the limits are defined by our inheritance but our position within the kerbs results from our experiences. (Somewhat oversimplified but go with it). Sometimes additional experiences can alter our perception so that we travel on the correct side of the road where previously we had crossed the central line. These experiences may include consequences, counselling, fear of being alone, poverty etc. etc..

So what, IMO, every BS has to weigh up is whether they are prepared to live with one ear cocked for the sound of footwear on floorboard. Some can, some can't - I didn't but I discharged what I saw as my overwhelming responsibilities (in my extreme situation) before acting.

Hurtbeyondtime posted 4/6/2019 20:30 PM

WIWH
I donít think this is worse for BH.. it doesnít matter if you were betrayed by a woman or man...
itís gut wrenching destruction of the marriage no matter what.

My BF in college cheated on me and lots of our friends knew. It was traumatic that I thought I would never be in a relationship much less get married. I had lots of trust issues because of my FFO and CSA abuse. When I met my fWH I was cautious and didnít want to get married because I didnít want to be destroyed.
So when I finally gave in and offered my heart and soul to my fWH and he promised to love and protect me I was loving and loyal to the end. His EAs were devastating but I tried to move past it. He promised it was nothing and since he hadnít had sex I agreed to make our marriage better. Once I found out about his PA... it killed me and the marriage. I stuck around for our kid and I was partially dead.. walking zombie 🧟‍♀️ for years.
So I donít think you can say itís worse for you because a WW causes more pain than a WH.

LostInTheDesert posted 4/7/2019 02:30 AM

I donít think this is worse for BH.. it doesnít matter if you were betrayed by a woman or man...

I think society makes it worse for the man, for a number of reasons, but that does not mean the betrayal is worse. The fallout will be worse for a number of reasons:

1. When a man cheats, it is assumed he is deficient. When a woman cheats, it is assumed the man is deficient.

2. There are loads of support services for female victims, that are not available to men.

3. Women have better support networks.

4. A man is expected to "be a man" and shake it off.

5. It appears women are more likely to have exit affairs. A person who has an exit affair has prepared for the end of the marriage for a long time in secret, perhaps years. The innocent partner is blindsided and just starts to process things on D-Day. They are simply not as well prepared to deal with the things that need to be processed and to act rationally to protect their own interests. This is no accident as the betrayer has conducted themselves for the whole time in a manner calculated to give them an advantage at the expense of the loyal spouse.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/7/2019 04:20 AM

Lost, I completely agree. Again Iím not trying to minimize what any betrayed BW has gone through here.

1.

When a man cheats, it is assumed he is deficient. When a woman cheats, it is assumed the man is deficient.

This.


A generation ago woman who committed adultery were shamed and shunned. My BWís side of the family and friends circled around her. Their point of view was Well you should have treated her better then she wouldnít have to go out and tuck other married men. Based on assumptions.
When I went to the book store or searched the Internet 99% of the information was about Men cheating.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 4:57 AM, April 7th (Sunday)]

amethyst0323 posted 4/7/2019 04:42 AM

Double post

[This message edited by amethyst0323 at 6:13 AM, April 7th (Sunday)]

amethyst0323 posted 4/7/2019 04:42 AM

A

I think society makes it worse for the man, for a number of reasons, but that does not mean the betrayal is worse. The fallout will be worse for a number of reasons:
1. When a man cheats, it is assumed he is deficient. When a woman cheats, it is assumed the man is deficient.

2. There are loads of support services for female victims, that are not available to men.

3. Women have better support networks.

4. A man is expected to "be a man" and shake it off.

5. It appears women are more likely to have exit affairs. A person who has an exit affair has prepared for the end of the marriage for a long time in secret, perhaps years. The innocent partner is blindsided and just starts to process things on D-Day. They are simply not as well prepared to deal with the things that need to be processed and to act rationally to protect their own interests. This is no accident as the betrayer has conducted themselves for the whole time in a manner calculated to give them an advantage at the expense of the loyal spouse.

I disagree with your post completely. I think society puts things on men and women that make it difficult. I also think your post hits on some of the stereotypes that society puts out there.

1. When a man cheats, women are met by "well you obviously weren't....." insert anything in here that you think a good wife should do..... sex, cooking, stroking ego etc.
Men an women assume that the marriage was lacking because of the wife.

2. I'm not sure what support services are available that different. I use websites, books etc. All available to both as is counselling if you go there. What can women access that men can't?

3. This is a generalisation. I have no support network. I'm overseas. I don't want to worry family or have them hate my WH long after we have hopefully reconciled. I've told 3 friends - two pretty much ditched me after they got the gossip and the other one is dealing with her own problems.

4. A women is expected to get over it too. "Men do this", " boys will be boys" etc.

5. I think this is possibly your only valid point. Research does show that women are more likely to have exit affairs and men traditionally don't want to end their marriage.

However, some men do have exit affair and numerous women do want to save their marriages.

Why does it have to be a competition as to who hurts most or who struggles most? Affairs are shit, everybody hurts from them. People deal with differently and repair themselves differently but we all hurt.

I think all individuals struggle with different things. Mine at the moment is forgiving myself because I let so much go. I could have caught him after he got his first two blowjobs as I saw a message from her telling him she missed him too. I chose not to snoop on his Facebook and instead asked him about it and began a cycle of gas lighting and me naively trusting.

I would imagine for some men the "shame" of being cheated on is difficult to deal with. It is a huge hit to self esteem for men and women. How we deal with things is the only thing we have control of and I think it easy to slip in to "it is worse because" or " it would be better if". God knows I do this all the time but in truth whatever his affair had bbeen it would have been awful.

The truth is it wouldn't. Affairs suck, affairs damage and affairs hurt everyone. It doesn't' matter if you are male or female, your hurt is yours. It is no greater or no less than anyone else's, it is just what it is. The only thing we can control is how we repair ourselves and how we move forward.

[This message edited by amethyst0323 at 6:12 AM, April 7th (Sunday)]

Edie posted 4/7/2019 05:04 AM

I donít think this is worse for BH.. it doesnít matter if you were betrayed by a woman or man...

I think society makes it worse for the man, for a number of reasons, but that does not mean the betrayal is worse. The fallout will be worse for a number of reasons:
1. When a man cheats, it is assumed he is deficient. When a woman cheats, it is assumed the man is deficient.

2. There are loads of support services for female victims, that are not available to men.

3. Women have better support networks.

4. A man is expected to "be a man" and shake it off.

5. It appears women are more likely to have exit affairs. A person who has an exit affair has prepared for the end of the marriage for a long time in secret, perhaps years. The innocent partner is blindsided and just starts to process things on D-Day. They are simply not as well prepared to deal with the things that need to be processed and to act rationally to protect their own interests. This is no accident as the betrayer has conducted themselves for the whole time in a manner calculated to give them an advantage at the expense of the loyal spouse.

There is a betrayed menís thread in I Can Relate where there you might get some sympathy for such unsubstantiated generalisations. Theyíre not really helpful here in Just Found Out, quite divisive and unnecessary. And thereís enough of that happening in the General Forum already.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/7/2019 05:23 AM

Theyíre not really helpful here in Just Found Out, quite divisive and unnecessary. And thereís enough of that happening in the General Forum already.

Men are not the only ones generalizing here. You might take a gander at the post immediately preceding yours for an example of it. I see no evidence of you policing what women have to say. Really quite one sided in your critique.

amethyst0323 posted 4/7/2019 06:08 AM

Notthemaniwas apologies if you thought my post was generalising. I was trying to show that some of the points made by lostinthedesert could be turned around and said about women i.e. The point about society thinking a man should just get over it, I was trying to show a woman hears the same. Likewise the same about it being the betrayed fault.

I don't actually fall into society having any effect on anything. People will believe what they want/ say what they want. As I said the only thing I can control is how I heal myself, what other people think or say has little relevance on that.

I'm not sure what actually you feel I was generalising to be honest. My whole post was trying to show that men and women hear the same things and receive the same treatment. My whole post was about affairs hurting everyone and everyone's pain being their own as oppose to


society makes it worse for the man,

And

The fallout will be worse

Which iare massive generalisations

And

When a Woman cheats I believe itís more emotional and much more damaging to the marriage

Which is again a massive generalisation and appears to be saying women have it easier!

I have never said (and certainly do not believe) women have it harder than men. Just the same as I would never claim that someone who had a WS who had an ons or short affair had less claim to their hurt because it wasn't as long as mine.

So again our hurt is our own. Nobody has it easier or harder regardless of their gender because it is only ours

[This message edited by amethyst0323 at 6:11 AM, April 7th (Sunday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/7/2019 06:19 AM

amethyst0323, no apology necessary. I actually wasn't taking issue with your post because what you had to say comes from your perspective which is how you feel. In fact, I don't police generalizations because they come from anecdotal experience which, I think, counts for something.

When you say...

1. When a man cheats, women are met by "well you obviously weren't....." insert anything in here that you think a good wife should do..... sex, cooking, stroking ego etc.
Men an women assume that the marriage was lacking because of the wife.

I'm just not going to call you out on it because its a generalization based on your experience. Who am I to say that you're wrong. Not my place.

I simply take issue with the contingent here hell bent on exclusively policing the male POV.

amethyst0323 posted 4/7/2019 06:48 AM

It wasn't actually a generalisation from my experience. Nobody has said it to probably because not many people know. But it is said, comments on newspaper articles etc.

I think what happens is the BS is unfairly seen as being to blame. Male or female it doesn't matter because unless you have been through it that is what people are seemingly conditioned to believe that people will only cheat because their spouse did something wrong not because they as a person are flawed.

I'm not sure why this thread struck me to be honest. I haven't posted much here probably because the last year has been hell at points. I know when you are trying to reconcile you desperately want hope.

I think reconciliation can only ever be successful if the WS is remorseful and does the work tbh. I do believe that both WW's and wh's can repair the damage and rebuild a marriage though.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/7/2019 06:57 AM

I know when you are trying to reconcile you desperately want hope.

My take: hopium

I do believe that both WW's and wh's can repair the damage and rebuild a marriage though.

My take: hopium

Can it work? yes
Probability of it working? very slim

The math does not favor R. And if you believe that, you have to reconcile with the prospect of protracted discomfort.

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