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11 year update

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NotTheManIwas posted 4/24/2019 11:47 AM

I'll say for myself as a BH that chose to stay with his cheater that her worthiness has little to do with my decision. If not for other compelling reasons, I'd have kicked her to the curb. And I do believe there are many Betrayed's like me. Our choice to stay is less an affirmation of our Cheater and certainly doesn't put us in a position to be riled when Cheaters are negatively characterized.

Perhaps we need a new forum called something like 'No Way Out.'

No need for another forum. This is a wholly pedestrian option for whom many in the "General" forum resonates. And its comforting to share, doncha know. Too bad for those whom it frustrates because of their "superior" decisions in life.

Beware the narcs and cake eaters ye who find yourselves in the worst club you never wanted to join.

Effing brilliant...

NotTheManIwas posted 4/24/2019 11:58 AM

Examples:

1) Divorce is always the right way.

2) Divorce is always a right way.

The first statement says that everyone who doesn't D is handling infidelity in a wrong way. Even some people who don't seem to believe R is possible stay married after infidelity, and they say not divorcing the the right way for them. Statement 1 is a vast over-generalization; that's why it was confronted.

So we get this tutorial, and yet, a post or two later we get this...

I think, as sisoon said, it's important to not read into the words that are written. Just take the words at face value.

I'm getting that one's command of the language had better damn well be superior to participate here. Else, bolster your armor.

crazyblindsided posted 4/24/2019 11:59 AM

Some of you who put on the cloak of being offended that not everyone is glorifying your superior life decisions will get your comeuppance because the final chapters of your lives haven't been written yet. I sincerely hope they stay wonderful because I wouldn't wish my pain on anyone.

Cheaters can change, and many in this forum have, but the ones who don't want to or possibly can't even do so are grossly underrepresented here, and they exist. These are the real shit shows, and they don't always abandon you. Some seek cake. Beware the narcs and cake eaters ye who find yourselves in the worst club you never wanted to join.

Exactly. It's great that many have R'd and are in happy M's now, but for those of us who were not dealt a good hand and are not ready to D... well that's why I'm here so that others can see the dark side of infidelity. I don't plan on this being a forever thing that's for sure!

cocoplus5nuts posted 4/24/2019 12:36 PM

I really don't understand why so many people are so defensive. If that's what you got out of my post, you completely misunderstood. I said nothing about anyone's command of the English language. It's trying to read between the lines that's the problem.

Darkness Falls posted 4/24/2019 12:41 PM

I don’t even understand why this is even an argument. If you want to try to R, try to R. If you want to D right away, then D. If you try to R but for whatever reason it doesn’t work out, then D. If, like me and my H, you D but want to R later, then do that. I don’t understand why any of it has to be a snarky fight—just do what works for your situation. Nobody has to justify their choice to anyone else.

sewardak posted 4/24/2019 12:54 PM

"Some of you who put on the cloak of being offended that not everyone is glorifying your superior life decisions will get your comeuppance because the final chapters of your lives haven't been written yet. I sincerely hope they stay wonderful because I wouldn't wish my pain on anyone."

ya know, I give more advice to D than R, so I take offense to this. My decision is not fucking superior, it's what worked for me and one I wouldn't advise unless the R had all the ingredients mine did. I would have given us a 3% chance. But that chance made all the difference. So why in the hell shouldn't I share this with someone?
IF a doctor said there was a 3% chance of surviving a disease should someone say "always" or "never" to that patient? it's not false hope.. the odds aren't good, but you have odds.
so what the hell?

hikingout posted 4/24/2019 12:56 PM

Amen, Darkness Falls. Sometimes these posts are an us against them, and I don't see what purpose it really serves anyone. At least not one that is greater than respecting one another - to me that would be far greater because doesn't everyone pretty much come to this site in the most painful stages of their life? Why make that worse for anyone?

And, this:

Is a murderer not a murderer just because they stopped killing?
Is a rapist not a rapist because they stopped raping?
If you have committed the act, you get the label.


I am calling this out, not because I mind that people in this forum call me a cheater. I cheated, I am a cheater. Okay, it doesn't bother me, it makes sense.

But, in real life where is this used? And to what end? So, my husband could always call me that if he wanted to. And, if we D'ed, maybe he would or wouldn't. But, we are at this stage together and with intents on that continuing. What purpose does this serve him in his healing? I get the grief having the anger component, I get that I caused this, and that really he's at liberty to do anything at all he wants. I just don't see how it helps him to really heal?


HellFire posted 4/24/2019 14:08 PM

Rubix, you hit on something that has always bothered me about this site.

So many waywards compare their affair(s) to addiction. So much so that they say they've been sober(NC) for X amount of time.

I've also noticed several BS do the same thing. Compare it to an addiction, one that,often, they had to help their WS pull out of.

An addiction.
An addict.

An addict is always going to be an addict. They can become clean and sober, for decades,but they remain an addict. That craving is always there, they just learn to manage it. Many will never use again. But they still refer to themselves as an addict.

So it's ok to call the affair,and the feelings one gets from the affair, an addiction. And when they talk about missing their AP,wanting to break NC, the waywards here refer to it as withdrawal. That they are withdrawing from their addiction. But, once cheaters become "sober" suddenly an addict is no longer an addict? They're former addicts?


Having read this forum for years, I think the decision to R or D is painful,no matter which way you choose to go. I do think the pro R crowd could have a bit more empathy for those who didn't have a perfect remorseful WS. Not all of us got that lucky. I also dont think the pro D crowd should tell new betrayed spouses that divorce is the only option.

There are several positive reconciliation stories here. And there are some former waywards that post here that I believe will never cheat again. But there are also a lot more people here who are struggling in reconciliation, in MY opinion, than happy in reconciliation. Again. MY opinion based on MY observations. And there have been several BS pop up in jfo, thinking they had been reconciled for years,only to discover that wasnt the case. It's a crap shoot. Each individual has to figure out for themselves if their WS, and the chance of a happy future is worth the risk.

timespent posted 4/24/2019 14:11 PM

I suspect that those with the strongest reactions to this dilemma are responding more to their own personal situations. Validation is a powerful thing, especially to those of us trying to wade through infidelity. I don't know how anyone can be certain about anything, ever, after betrayal.

josiep posted 4/24/2019 14:58 PM

May I ask what point you are disagreeing with?
She said divorce is always a right choice and R can also be a valid choice.

Actually what was said was 'D is always the right choice....'
I don't think 'D is always a right choice' would have gotten much comment.

No, you can't get away with that. For starters, you're taking her words out of context because that statement was followed immediately by "R can also be the right choice." (paraphrased - don't have it handy).

Secondly, what basis do you have to claim that a divorce is NOT always the right choice? How could it possibly be the wrong choice? Based on what?


So I still believe that we need to continue to air all voices because some people NEED to be told that D is an option and that they don't have to fix this.

Absolutely. At the same time, some people come here with the idea that they must D, and I think most of them need to hear that they have several options.

To go back to the quote above, the fact that the word "choice" is in the sentence pretty much makes it clear there are options. And of course people need to hear all sides. That's what I'm saying. Let those who think D is the only option speak their peace. I'm having trouble understanding why this is such an issue and why so many are trying to shut these guys down. When a newly betrayed posts and gets 37 responses that say 37 different things, I don't understand how they could possibly think that the posts are anything more than suggestions and opinions from a wide variety of people.


Examples:

1) Divorce is always the right way.

2) Divorce is always a right way.

The first statement says that everyone who doesn't D is handling infidelity in a wrong way. Even some people who don't seem to believe R is possible stay married after infidelity, and they say not divorcing the the right way for them. Statement 1 is a vast over-generalization; that's why it was confronted.

But no one said THAT. The OP's original point was that the cheater would cheat again. He didn't actually address the topic of D or R.

And one who did say Divorce is always the right choice followed by R can also be a right choice (or words to that effect) did not say it was the only right way. And this is the part I have trouble with because to me it was clear that she was saying Divorce is never the wrong choice, not that Divorce is the ONLY choice.

And to me, her words were clear as could be and yet some of you are reading it differently.

josiep posted 4/24/2019 15:08 PM

"Some of you who put on the cloak of being offended that not everyone is glorifying your superior life decisions will get your comeuppance because the final chapters of your lives haven't been written yet. I sincerely hope they stay wonderful because I wouldn't wish my pain on anyone."

ya know, I give more advice to D than R, so I take offense to this. My decision is not fucking superior, it's what worked for me and one I wouldn't advise unless the R had all the ingredients mine did. I would have given us a 3% chance. But that chance made all the difference. So why in the hell shouldn't I share this with someone?
IF a doctor said there was a 3% chance of surviving a disease should someone say "always" or "never" to that patient? it's not false hope.. the odds aren't good, but you have odds.
so what the hell?

Were you one of the ones offended by the ones who advocate BS's should cut and run right away and not expect true R from a WS? Cuz that's what I was referring to.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/24/2019 15:10 PM

josiep, I'm pretty sure that you're trying to chop wood that has petrified.

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 4/24/2019 15:10 PM

An addict is always going to be an addict. They can become clean and sober, for decades,but they remain an addict. That craving is always there, they just learn to manage it. Many will never use again. But they still refer to themselves as an addict.

So it's ok to call the affair,and the feelings one gets from the affair, an addiction. And when they talk about missing their AP,wanting to break NC, the waywards here refer to it as withdrawal. That they are withdrawing from their addiction. But, once cheaters become "sober" suddenly an addict is no longer an addict? They're former addicts?

My BH is an alcoholic. It’s funny because I always insist on calling him a “recovering alcoholic” because I want to make sure that when I say he’s an alcoholic nobody pictures him as a drunk. If you ask him, he’s an alcoholic.

Him being an alcoholic has given him a lot of insight into my own dysfunctions. He has been able see some parallels in the line of thinking. Once we began talking about his addiction, I was finally able to offer him empathy in his own struggles.

There are definitely differences though. Whenever either I or my husband say that he has been sober for almost 9 years, everyone congratulates him. People talk about how great it is that he is doing so well, how proud we all are of him. He actually laughs it off and says “yeah, it’s great that I stopped acting like an asshole”.

WS’s do not get congratulated for finally acting like decent human beings. Don’t misunderstand, I wouldn’t want that. It’s just interesting to me.

If you feel the need to label me a cheater, that’s fine. I cheated. There was a time that the “F” in FWS was very important to me. Now? The only people anything matters to now is HT and myself. We are the only two that the status of our M should matter to. I consider our story a success. There are no guarantees, however. I’m just glad that he chose to the leap of faith to get here. He’s said himself that had he D’d there was still no guarantee that he wouldn’t get hurt again.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/24/2019 15:19 PM

It seems to me that we're arguing the nature of hope, which (depending on the circumstances) is either the most restorative or the most toxic substance on SI. It's the key ingredient in both the happiest, most successful Rs and the most devastating failed Rs. People who have been burned by hopium believe their blanket warnings will spare others the worst possible pain, that of "fool me twice, shame on me." Those who have achieved R probably aren't as sure of themselves as the pro-D crowd seems to think. Extending trust again is terrifying, so of course it's a trigger if someone asserts that R is literally impossible, and that hope is just a fool's paradise for the deluded and the weak.

The sad truth is that for many here, the odds are stacked against a happy R. The objective truth is that it can and does happen; we have living examples of it. The agonizing truth is that there is no way to guarantee which of these futures applies to you, unless you are in the category where your unremorseful cheater makes it obvious. Hope makes that uncertainty exponentially more painful, because if you knew the outcome, you could start to move on. So some posters feel there's a universality here: abandon hope, and at least the uncertainty no longer hurts you.

I choose hope, as does my BH, but both of us are aware of the enormous effort and emotional risk of R. I can assure you that we are not smirking on some mountaintop, gloating in our moral superiority over people in desperate pain. It's just a different kind of pain.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/24/2019 15:31 PM

BraveSirRobin, a very reasoned and thoughtful post. It should sate both sides of the debate. Although, I'm not confident it will.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 3:32 PM, April 24th (Wednesday)]

sewardak posted 4/24/2019 15:32 PM

josiep yes.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/24/2019 16:43 PM

I choose hope

Excellent. This hits right to the heart of the discussion.
Why do we choose to get married? Or stay together when the promise is broken? We know it’s a 50/50 chance of succeeding. If I gave you a parachute to jump out of an airplane with those odds would you jump? And for one proven capable of sticking a knife in your back? The odds diminish on the second attempt at M so why jump? Its why Las Vagas was built.
Hope, and the diluted fantasy that we’ll beat the odds. And some do. Good for them. But for those who JFO and are likely in complete shock as I was, they need to know what they are up against at a time when they aren’t capable of a life changing decisions. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING says our marriage is OVER than Adultery. The Wayward spouse made a clear with a premeditated choice that the bond is BROKEN !

Proceed accordingly.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 5:23 PM, April 24th (Wednesday)]

steadychevy posted 4/24/2019 17:12 PM

Who gets to decide what's incompetent thinking? If we need to be careful about what words we use because we can't see the non-verbal cues that statement would be an example to use for illustration purposes. Who gets to decide?

sewardak posted 4/24/2019 18:31 PM

"Nothing, and I mean NOTHING says our marriage is OVER than Adultery. The Wayward spouse made a clear with a premeditated choice that the bond is BROKEN !"

I guess I just don't see it like that. You can interpret your marriage as you wish. But you can't put your own morality stamp on mine.
Our bond wasn't broken, just bent.
Our marriage wasn't over, it was a really bad, like the worst, chapter in a book of us.

And if i divorced him it would have been a bad chapter in a good marriage.
I get to decide that though.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/24/2019 19:27 PM

I interpret forsaking all others as discontinuing the search for the one I vow to be my one and only. I see only broken promises. Not bent ones. That’s just me though. No judgment.

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