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11 year update

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NotTheManIwas posted 4/19/2019 16:10 PM

and in general

oh, oh

Charity411 posted 4/19/2019 16:37 PM

This has been an interesting thread. I can't blame anyone who walks away from a WS. I did after briefly trying R. I was the only one trying. The agony of one DD, much less multiple DDs is hard to imagine. And without question there is a good possibility that there will be more than one. Especially if you have been gas lighted and subjected to trickle truth.

That being said, how do any of us tell someone who's been married 50 years that they're stupid for staying? That there is no good reason to stay, or that they are weak, or not taking charge of their lives? Figuring what their age is doing the math, 80 or 90 percent of their lives have been intertwined with someone financially, and it's kind of insensitive to suggest they should just get a job in their retirement and move on alone.

How helpful is it to tell a single stay at home mom with 4 or 6 kids that they should just buck up and figure it out? Yeah, in their own time they should. But the fact that they might stay while they are figuring out how to get a strong enough footing in life to be self sufficient with multiple kids, doesn't make them stupid and asking for trouble, or indecisive. It means they are facing a stark and difficult reality. And it's one they had no hand in making.

For this reason, although I think this is a great debate with a lot of collective wisdom, l don't think it ever belonged on JFO. Imagine that single mom or woman who has just celebrated a milestone anniversary who comes here after DD to be faced with posts about how their fools if they think they can save their marriage. You might be right. But here? Really?

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 17:41 PM

You might be right. But here? Really?

Yes here. Where else? I wish I had this perspective When I JFO. Honestly, I probably wouldnít have listened. Iíd have insisted that my WW is different. She will change. Youíll see! No youíre not a fool for choosing to attempt R but I will say this again. If he/she has had an affair YOUR MARRIAGE Is OVER! You can try to begin a new Marriage but the old one is DEAD! Personally Iíd cut my losses if I could do it all over again. For me betrayal of that level is unforgivable. Believe me I tried.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 5:49 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/19/2019 17:47 PM

Charity411, opinions like the one below from earlier in the thread are exactly why this is perfect for JFO.

I appreciate both sides of the conversation... but I really do believe that there remains a conversation that needs to be had... particularly for the JFO crowd.

That conversation supercedes the "they'll cheat again" discussion AND the "give them their due chance to change" argument. And THAT discussion is centered around this... what the REALITY of reconciliation looks like.

ETA: In fact, this discussion got heated enuf that a JFO reading here received an "all sides" perspective of what their next move might/ought be.

Also wanted to say that the following has much merit and addresses decisions made outside the binary D or R...

That being said, how do any of us tell someone who's been married 50 years that they're stupid for staying? That there is no good reason to stay, or that they are weak, or not taking charge of their lives? Figuring what their age is doing the math, 80 or 90 percent of their lives have been intertwined with someone financially, and it's kind of insensitive to suggest they should just get a job in their retirement and move on alone.

How helpful is it to tell a single stay at home mom with 4 or 6 kids that they should just buck up and figure it out? Yeah, in their own time they should. But the fact that they might stay while they are figuring out how to get a strong enough footing in life to be self sufficient with multiple kids, doesn't make them stupid and asking for trouble, or indecisive. It means they are facing a stark and difficult reality.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 6:03 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

Svon posted 4/19/2019 17:55 PM

Wishiwasnthereto, I completely yet respectfully disagree that my marriage, affair scarred as it is, was ever over. It was never over in my heart, his, or the eyes of the law. Yes. Promises were broken, but infidelity, albeit the worst, was not the only broken promise. A marriage is a complicated agreement made by two imperfect humans. He broke vows, yes, but he was always my husband. He came home to me. He supported me. He supported our family. He had a problem. It was his problem and his to fix, but saying our marriage ended the day the affair started is essentially playing second fiddle to the affair. The affair was the illegitimate relationship. Not me. If his problem
Had been gambling, would the marriage have ended when he gambled away a fortune? You may feel your marriage ended with the cheating, and in your heart, it may have, but that is not everyoneís truth as you so vehemently declare as fact.

sleepylove posted 4/19/2019 18:17 PM

Nicely said Svon. There is beauty in remorse and redemption. Some people are able to fully experience these things and change their lives and some are not. Both paths are acceptable. We have to find the path that brings us the most peace.

fareast posted 4/19/2019 18:25 PM

Nicely said Svon. And sleepylove, I agree some people are able to change their lives and some are not. Some BH sleep with one eye open and others donít. Both paths are completely acceptable. If you can not find peace in R donít do it. If you suffered the unfairness of suffering a false it is horrible. But to tell all newbies that their fate is false R is of course well, false on its face. Even if all those false Rís are ďlegendĒ donít you know.

HouseOfPlane posted 4/19/2019 18:31 PM

Yeah,same here...they learned how to not get caught better.
No, thatís not what happened, sorry.

But upon further review..yea...some of the WS (a fellow pilot, an uncle) were the proverbial scorpion on the frogís back, incapable of not cheating. True to their nature. But they never ďgot betterĒ at cheating either.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 18:33 PM

Svon, we can respectfully agree to disagree.

marriage is a complicated agreement

What is complicated about promising to for forsake all others?
Itís clear as day to me. Pretty simple really.

If youíve started again with a second promise to forsake all others I wish you well.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 6:41 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

timespent posted 4/19/2019 18:36 PM

Hey WIWHT, not sure but I think the generalization problem is about referencing women only in your "they won't respect you" theory. I would respectfully suggest that it could be either gender who might do this. This might give a slight misogynistic tone to your posts. Otherwise I agree with you in many ways fwiw. Cheers.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 18:40 PM

Time, I can only speak from a Male perspective. If I get the misogynist label so be it. Iíll add that to Racist and Homophobe accusations.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 6:50 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/19/2019 18:45 PM

Even if all those false Rís are ďlegendĒ donít you know

Snarky is as snarky does.

timespent posted 4/19/2019 18:48 PM

I get that. Just food for thought.

Svon posted 4/19/2019 19:42 PM

Wishiwasnthereto, no need to wish me well. I didnít start again or a new marriage. I continued in my imperfect one that never ended. Humans are imperfect. I recognize that to many, infidelity is an unforgivable sin. I begrudge no one that. For me, there are far greater sins than infidelity, even in a marriage. If my husband had verbally, physically, or financially abused me I donít know if I could have stuck it out. We all have our deal killers. Do you consider infidelity as the only thing that equates a marriage as null and void or is it other broken promises as well? Furthermore, I have read your rants for a week now and I donít believe you to be a cheater, I have my suspicions that you arenít the next coming of Jesus Christ either so I suspect you are as
Imperfect as the rest of us. I wish you and your next relationship well too. I do hope you find your perfect human match.

fareast posted 4/19/2019 20:00 PM

NotTheManIWas:

You are correct and I do apologize. My remark was snarky and it did not advance the discussion. The pickings were just too easy, but I need to not engage in that manner. Itís no excuse but when I retired from the bench I promised myself to let peopleís words speak for themselves. Anyone reading this thread will get it without my snarky remarks. I do sincerely apologize.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 20:23 PM

Do you consider infidelity as the only thing that equates a marriage as null and void or is it other broken promises as well?

I believe Adultery is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a marriage. Far beyond verbal abuse and other broken promises. I do recognize that financial infidelity is the number one cause for divorce statically however.
The answer to your question is no. If you read my post, what ended my 27 year marriage was my request to her laptop password. She vehemently refused. It didnít matter to me what she was hiding. The fact that she had something to hide was enough to contact my attorney. Iíll never know. And frankly I donít give a shit. Iím thankful Iím no longer an investigator.
I dont claim to be Jesus and Iím not looking for the perfect Woman. Just one who has moral values. Rant over.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 8:30 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/19/2019 20:38 PM

Ya know, fareast, if you'd just limited it to

You are correct and I do apologize. My remark was snarky and it did not advance the discussion

...I might well have been gracious about this, but adding...

The pickings were just too easy

and...

Anyone reading this thread will get it without my snarky remarks

...really is a faux-Apology.

Ironically...

when I retired from the bench I promised myself to let peopleís words speak for themselves

...I could have relied on your own words to make my case and showcase your hubris, but, nah, more fun to be clear, concise, and to the point.

ETA: Look at you so good at baiting me into a response. Ain't it fun...

And I'll add that...

I do sincerely apologize.

...was a very nice touch.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 8:43 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

Charity411 posted 4/19/2019 23:17 PM

NotTheManIWas....What is binary D or R? Is there such a sure definition that fits all in relationships of any kind? If there is, where do we order the manual?

josiep posted 4/19/2019 23:39 PM

If my husband had verbally, physically, or financially abused me I donít know if I could have stuck it out.

I guess we can all put our own spin on what the marriage vows stipulate but I would consider lying to me about where he was and what hw was doing to be a form of verbal abuse. I think Iíd have preferred to be yelled at. I would consider him exposing me to STDs to be a form of physical abuse. And I definitely consider him using our money for his sordid and wicked activities to be financial abuse.

I agree with OP that the marriage is over once additional parties have been added to the contract and I would never want to continue that one. If we could find a path to move forward together, I think heís right and we need to forge a new marriage that starts fresh and clean.

But to each his own, as they say.

Svon posted 4/20/2019 00:42 AM

JosieP, I tend to agree with your premise of abuses, but I do find distinct differences between the person who chooses to rape, beat, or even murder a fellow human vs. an idiotic selfish asshole who lacks the intelligence and foresight to see the pain cheating on someone will eventually cause. Itís kind of like the drunk driver who plows into an innocent family... had they had the sober intelligence to understand that they would inflict sick pain on innocents, I suspect many would stop before they get behind the wheel. If the cheater had the foresight to see the devastation their selfishness would cause, I have to believe many would at least take pause. This is not excusing their behavior at all, but I know I personally have picked up my phone for a second while driving to send a quick text. Wrong? Absolutely! Dangerous? Without a doubt. Potentially devastating? I canít not deny it and I am ashamed. I could have caused a traumatic accident and even a death. Am I as guilty as a murderer or immoral as a murderer? Did I just get lucky? Or did I make a selfish choice that I luckily got away with? What if I hadnít got away with it? Would I be worse than a cheater? Just as bad? The behavior all stems from selfish behavior.

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