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11 year update

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LifeisCrazy posted 4/17/2019 12:18 PM

This is why many of us chose the uphill battle of R. The feet of being alone. Or the high possibility of making another bad choice and ending up in the same place.

Or... the possibility that our spouses deserve a chance to prove us wrong and are capable of change. That, too, is a perfectly valid reason for reconciliation.

Unfortunately, you never really know. And you can't beat yourself up over having made what you thought was, at the time, a solid decision. As I tell my kids, you have to make decisions based on the information you have at hand. Looking back in retrospect and saying, "I should have known, once a cheater, always a cheater" is a false narrative. It's never as easy, or as clear, as that.

A better recommendation for the newly betrayed is to understand what I said in my previous post. Most of us, if we think about reconciliation, are considering that road because we think our spouses are capable of change. What should be emphasized is that, even if it's 100% true, that acceptance comes with a HUGE price: an ongoing story of second-guessing and sadness. It is the price we pay for our acceptance.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/17/2019 17:24 PM

It is the price we pay for our acceptance.

Was
I think we can all agree that infidelity is unacceptible in marriage? That was clear to begin with. There should be no price to pay. And no acceptance.
He\She took a vow to forsake all others.
There is no bigger message a spouse can make to declare our marriage is over than than becoming intimate with someone else.

If youíd like to believe they can change because theyíve been caught and now realize how much pain they have caused. News flash!!!! They carefully thought it out and donít give a shit ! Itís all about them! Thatís who you married. If you believe you can forgive and forget what is essentialy a dagger in your back from the one who was your most trusted more power to you.

Hereís a reality check for those who JFO. When a Woman knows youíve found out sheís cheating and are willing to forgive she will take that as a sign of weakness and lose whatever little respect she had for you. And she had little to begin with. Take that into consideration.

This has been my experience and may not apply to your situation.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 6:32 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Western posted 4/17/2019 19:31 PM

I agree Wish, once they know you are weak, cheaters will capitalize. So many people go through this but are too conflicted or too weak to deal with it. Many ignore obvious
signs

wifehad5 posted 4/18/2019 06:03 AM

Wishiwasnthereto,

Once again, please read the Guidelines:

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

Speak to your own situation, not for everyone.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/18/2019 09:56 AM

Yes Maíam. Iíll be more careful.

Once again? I must have missed the first message.

fareast posted 4/18/2019 11:05 AM

The first warning was in the middle of page 7 of this thread. Apparently you missed it.

By the way wifehad5 is a male and the Administrator of this website. 🤪

[This message edited by fareast at 11:10 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/18/2019 11:26 AM

Yes Sir thatvis

sisoon posted 4/18/2019 12:18 PM

Divorce is divorce, finito, but there are so many variations on staying together. And for the vast majority of us, attempting reconciliation makes the infidelity a/the central theme of the marriage going forward. Even if you get to the point where you don't speak of it again. It's there.
The key isn't the action; it's the attitude.

A good D and a good R happen only if the BS is acting autonomously and authentically. That means accepting that the A(s) has/have occurred, getting out of Drama Triangles when they arise, expressing feelings effectively, resolving issues that come up, etc., etc., etc..

Bigger urges BSes to 'get out of infidelity.' I don't think he means 'D and bury the fact that you've been betrayed.' I think he means something more like, 'Embrace the A, learn that it's not about you, know that you have lots of options and are free to choose the one you think best, restore or build high self-esteem and self-love, figure out what you want, and go for it.'

Note to Bigger: Please correct me if you think I misunderstand what you mean.

*****

IMO, R works best if BS & WS agree on some observable behaviors that are requirements for R - requirements: if the aren't observed, they're not being done, and R has stopped.

One of the most important behaviors is raising and resolving issues when they occur.

Initially in R, the issues are almost all related to the A(s). As time goes on and R takes hold, day-to-day issues start to replace A issues. Eventually, the issues are almost all related to day-to-day life; A issues come up only occasionally, if at all.

*****

The A is and will always be part of my life, my W's life, and our M's history. That's true even if one or both of us chose/choose D.

But I've experienced other traumas in my life. At this point (and for the last few years), my W's A is just one of those traumas, and I'm not sure being betrayed was the worst. (It might have been; I'm just not sure. I really don't want to give any energy to comparing traumas.)

At this point - after a lot of time since d-day, and a lot of work - remembering the A is an infrequent annoyance, except for once in the last few years when it hit a level of grief.

*****

In objective terms, d-day doesn't change the BS - s/he's the same person s/he was a day earlier. Same strengths. Same weaknesses.

But the opportunities and threats are different, and confirmation that one has been betrayed does a lot of damage.

D-day provides opportunities to take control of and responsibility for oneself and one's life. There's no guarantee that one can better one's life, but d-day provides an opportunity to reset your hopes and dreams.

You can't avail yourself of that opportunity, though, unless you process out of your body the anger, grief, fear, and shame that come with d-day.

If you do that work, though, I think our emotional lives get good. If you do the necessary work, you will be different from before d-day - more strengths, fewer weaknesses, irrespective of the D/R outcome.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:24 PM, April 18th (Thursday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/18/2019 13:44 PM

The key isn't the action; it's the attitude.

Were this in the General Forum, I don't think I'd respond. However, the OP made clear that he put his original post in JFO as a cautionary tale to the uninitiated. Hence, I'm not letting this go.

Second, I'll preface everything I'm about to say by saying that I speak as a male. I'm betting my opinion reflects that of many males. (maybe not; certainly wouldn't want to get sideways with the generalizations crowd)

Posting the quote above is beyond the pale. As a JFO responsive actions are everything. In fact, because of the psychological vulnerability of the Betrayed, acting in spite of the paralyzing effects of the betrayal is paramount to getting back some semblance of self esteem and personal autonomy. The hard 180 is the easiest accessible example of this where the Betrayed puts themself in the position of driving the new narrative AND serving notice to the cheater what's what. Its upon having DONE something that the Betrayed begins to experience the necessary change in attitude. Attitude follows action. Its a kind of fake it 'til you make it. And its absolutely essential for the Betrayed to begin personal recovery.

IMO, R works best if BS & WS agree on some observable behaviors that are requirements for R - requirements: if they aren't observed, they're not being done, and R has stopped.

On this we can agree. However, because the poster has what he considers, at minimum, a satisfactory R, he doesn't dwell on what so many here actually experience. This is JFO, and the stories of false R are legend. Simply saying...

if they aren't observed, they're not being done, and R has stopped.

...doesn't, in the least, prepare one for the commonly experienced attempt at R. Look, folks, whats common is to get the emotionally satisfying affirmative nod of the head from the Cheater when you say your piece regarding what you want and need. This happens with nauseating consistency. However, what's your Cheater doing in the aftermath of whatever satisfying conversation you've had with them? This is what distinguishes the common Cheater from the poster's unicorn. Most of us are left with our hands thrown up in the air asking "wait, didn't we discuss that behavior? do I not speak perfectly understandable English? WTF about what we recently talked about did you not get?"

Its not that they didn't get it. Its that they pacified your verbal expressions and then went on to satisfy their own selfish impulses and indulgences fully confident that at the next discussion they'd, once again, be able to appear empathetic and apply the fake salve to the wound that is your vulnerability. And they'll keep doing that until you drop a hammer of some kind.

Think about managing teenagers. They are faux adults, yes? That's what you are dealing with. Intelligent enough to engage you at your level, and immaturely conniving enough to passive aggressively fuck you at every turn. Ignore this paragraph at your emotional peril.

Next...

The A is and will always be part of my life, my W's life, and our M's history. That's true even if one or both of us chose/choose D.

But I've experienced other traumas in my life. At this point (and for the last few years), my W's A is just one of those traumas, and I'm not sure being betrayed was the worst. (It might have been; I'm just not sure. I really don't want to give any energy to comparing traumas.)

I counter with this...

"Are you prepared, really prepared, to live with this betrayal for the rest of your life? Are you the sort of person who is capable of doing that?"

My wife appears to have done it... to be that odd WW who has truly done the work. But has she? Is it conceivable that, down the road, I could find out (like the OP) that she's just been another woman who couldn't change her character?

I've thought about that for years.

I believe this last example of a solid Reconciliation applies more accurately to the lot of us.

And lastly, this...

In objective terms, d-day doesn't change the BS - s/he's the same person s/he was a day earlier. Same strengths. Same weaknesses.

Could not disagree more heartily. To the JFO's following this thread, the number of posts from the Betrayed that intimate how their belief system has been turned upside down by the betrayal is beyond my count. You are changed, period.

Now go out there and make this shit happen. (Chris Rock quote)

steadychevy posted 4/18/2019 15:11 PM

Thank God my WW committed adultery. If she hadn't I never would have known to take control about my life, aspirations, goals and dreams. Had I not had a DDay I would never have realized I needed to work on myself, be a life long learner, set and achieve life goals. I wouldn't have known to be responsible and take responsibility for my actions and life and new goals and aspirations.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/18/2019 15:23 PM

Ok,steadychevy, yours was a better response. Simple is better. Tip of the cap to you, sir.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/18/2019 17:02 PM

Thank God my WW committed adultery.

Now Thatís looking at ithe glass half full. Good for you!
Iím sure thereís something good that came from WWs Adultery. Iím drawing a blank. Thereís something though.
Iíll post when it comes to me.

HouseOfPlane posted 4/18/2019 19:04 PM

I've heard some people can change their character. I've never seen it.
Really?

That completely dismisses the idea that surroundings influence people, leadership influences people, that running with a bad crowd can be different from running with a good crowd, that people can mature. I spent 30 years in the military, and leadership, organizational culture, and growth and maturing are enduring facts.

For every WS I know who had a D-day, it was a grabbing a hot pot off the stove moment. They learned.

But f character is the fundamental matter, and speaking of military, the cheating rate and divorce rate are far higher from the general population. Either military are naturally drawn to whores or man-whores, or the environment matters. If it doesnít matter and there isnít a natural affinity to whore spouses, then that means a lot of non-military are married to latent whores, which is just as bad as being married to one who has acted. So spouses should hire man-whores to test their wives, tell them to make lots of male friends, etc., and reveal the truth, otherwise....better to find out as soon as possible.

Which reminds me of the joke about the difference between theory and reality, which the kid asked his dad about. Dad says to go ask mom if and sis if they would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars. He did, they both said yes...for the family. Dad says, ďin theory weíre millionaires, in reality weíre living with a couple of whores.Ē

Sorry, Iíve had a couple beers.

steadychevy posted 4/19/2019 06:07 AM

Just to be clear, Wishiwasnt, that was sarcasm so don't think to long or hard on coming up with something positive.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 07:24 AM

that was sarcasm

And so was my response

steadychevy posted 4/19/2019 10:08 AM

Gotcha!

Marauder posted 4/19/2019 15:15 PM

Or... the possibility that our spouses deserve a chance to prove us wrong and are capable of change. That, too, is a perfectly valid reason for reconciliation.

They have already done so. You thought you were soul mates, you thought you belonged together, you thought you could trust them, love them and count on them no matter what.

They've proven you wrong in all those beliefs. I guess if you think that they will prove you wrong in that it is a good idea to try R, then that's a valid point too and the most likely.

This is why many of us chose the uphill battle of R. The feet of being alone. Or the high possibility of making another bad choice and ending up in the same place. Itís not like there are
lots of great singles lined up on the street just to be scooped up at this age. Nearly all of them, including myself have been severely wounded from previous relationships.

May I be absolutely brutally honest? Most of the time I read people's justification for wanting to fix things, they seem to come from a place of fear.

Fear of "losing" what they never had but thought they did. Fear of being alone. Fear of having to go out alone into the unknown once more.

And while "other people have been wounded too", there's a big difference between someone being wounded, having undergone hardships and bringing in baggage and someone having caused those wounds, having put that hardship onto other and heaped that baggage onto them. Because a WS is the latter the two type, they did all of this to someone else, knowingly, willingly, on purpose, to fulfill their own selfish desires and indulge themselves. This is not at all the same as someone having suffered at the hands of someone else.

GoldenR posted 4/19/2019 15:25 PM

For every WS I know who had a D-day, it was a grabbing a hot pot off the stove moment. They learned.

Yeah,same here...they learned how to not get caught better.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/19/2019 15:40 PM

Yeah,same here...they learned how to not get caught better.

Thatís be my experience. Iíll be careful not to generalize since Iím tha only one who gets yelled at for doing so.
Upon discovery XWW said she would end it. They just took it under ground. Months later it was Dday #2. Iíve read countless similar stories here. Evidently the pot wasnít hot enough.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 3:41 PM, April 19th (Friday)]

Marauder posted 4/19/2019 15:55 PM

Cheaters most of the time don't stop because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They just learn from it and get smarter about it, hide it better and in general improve how they conduct their skullduggery.

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