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11 year update

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LostInTheDesert posted 4/9/2019 22:38 PM

... That psychologist was adamant that people donít change their basic values and personalities...

But Iíve definitely changed my mind. When push came to shove, he still had that same lack of a value system, moral character and strength to deal with his problems and reverted to reinventing himself rather than facing anything that was true.


I think it's worse than this. Before cheating for the first time, a person has to think "If I do this, I will have become a cheater. I cannot undo that. Is that who I want to be?" I think this is probably the single greatest mental barrier to infidelity.

After the first time, that barrier is not there anymore. The person has become a cheater - they are no longer walking through a door through which they cannot return, because they are on the other side of that door.

Where it is an affair, the person has repeatedly made the active choice to plan to be: a betrayer; a deceiver; empathy deficient; and selfish, over an extended period.

Given the demonstrable preparedness to become a less worthy person, and the fact that they no longer have that scary one-way door to go through, why should they be trusted when they say they will be a better person?

fareast posted 4/10/2019 00:15 AM

Well I may have to rethink my position on this thread given the heartfelt opinion of so many. I must admit I was skeptical of the logic from the OP who proclaimed he wants to help newbies understand that since his WW cheated and he had granted her the grace of R to save his family only to have it turn out to be a false R years later, that meant all WS have an irredeemable character flaw and R is impossible because people can never change, and the BS that attempts to R will always be resentful and live in doubt and anticipation of the next A. It seemed like a huge generalization of people, which is discouraged here, and a giant leap unsupported by any data other than anecdotal stuff. But I could be wrong. The beauty of this line of thinking is itís simplicity. You certainly donít need a reconciliation forum if this is true. You donít need an I Can Relate forum, and you sure donít need a Waywards forum since they can never change anyway, and Hell, you donít even need a JFO forum, just put a facing page on the website in big letters stating: if your spouse has an A, file for D, your M is over and your spouse has an irredeemable character flaw and will never change and so just file for D. Why has no one thought of this before? Simply brilliant.

Edie posted 4/10/2019 01:02 AM

Well I may have to rethink my position on this thread given the heartfelt opinion of so many. I must admit I was skeptical of the logic from the OP who proclaimed he wants to help newbies understand that since his WW cheated and he had granted her the grace of R to save his family only to have it turn out to be a false R years later, that meant all WS have an irredeemable character flaw and R is impossible because people can never change, and the BS that attempts to R will always be resentful and live in doubt and anticipation of the next A. It seemed like a huge generalization of people, which is discouraged here, and a giant leap unsupported by any data other than anecdotal stuff. But I could be wrong. The beauty of this line of thinking is itís simplicity. You certainly donít need a reconciliation forum if this is true. You donít need an I Can Relate forum, and you sure donít need a Waywards forum since they can never change anyway, and Hell, you donít even need a JFO forum, just put a facing page on the website in big letters stating: if your spouse has an A, file for D, your M is over and your spouse has an irredeemable character flaw and will never change and so just file for D. Why has no one thought of this before? Simply brilliant.

Quite.

This space of SI, which gave OP the support he acknowledges and which allows the forum now to debate the matter, was created by a BH and WW successfully long reconciled, They had experienced support and wisdom through their infidelity crisis and since then devoted themselves to creating a safe space to betrayed spouses and wayward spouses to help understand themselves and their spouses.

JFO is a place where people arrive afraid and confused, on the edge. It is good to get diverse perspectives and personal histories - itís how you can work out your own perspective. Itís also good for newbies to understand the risk they are taking.

Iím sorry OPís wife remained flaky and deceitful, and fraudulent. Really sorry. But to claim, against overwhelming evidence of the presence of so many reforming and former waywards here,of both sexes, that ďIf you stay sheíll cheat againď is in danger of frightening already traumatised and possibly susceptible people into not taking that risk. And yes, it is a generalised imperative, not qualified in any way as an opinion.

Deeply Scared not only didnít cheat again but she devoted her life to making this space a safe place of support and debate, and understanding. And many former wayward wives are here supporting BHs and BWs. The contention that Ďshe will cheat againí may be true in individual cases but as a general blanket prediction is not supported by the evidence here.

[This message edited by Edie at 1:12 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]

Scoobydoo posted 4/10/2019 02:45 AM

Newbies point of view here

I joined in March, I have read lots of posts in all the forums taken lots of advice from different opinions (including my own thread majorly) I have read over & over again ďtake what advice you want & leave the rest) not every story is the same & therefore has different endings.

Wiwht has given a lot of food for thought in his opinion & surely this is the point of this site...even if you eventually end up helping 1 person isnít that enough?

Tbh I havenít taken any generalisations from this post just personal opinions to their own circumstances!

I donít know why I joined originally I just needed something or someone to hear me, believe me I have received that in spades,

Maybe rambling to some but I just want to get my point across that i have appreciated this thread more than anything
😊

Edie posted 4/10/2019 03:02 AM

Thatís useful to hear, Scooby. Maybe Iím being overprotective 😊

RocketRaccoon posted 4/10/2019 03:57 AM

WIWHT,

Going to sidestep the T/J.

Just wanted to wish you well on your life ahead.

You did what you needed to do for YOU, and for YOUR own reasons.

Kudos on taking the step out of infidelity. It may have taken you a long time, but well done on taking the step.

GoldenR posted 4/10/2019 04:52 AM

My XWW put me thru a year + of false R. But I'm not anti R bc of it, I'm just very anti My XWW.

Wishiwasnthereto posted 4/10/2019 05:37 AM

Thank you. Divorce sucks it was very painful but necessary in my case. I believe my exís brokenness stems from her childhood. Can someone change in their 50ís? I had lost hope for that.

Lost in desert, well put. Very intuitive.

[This message edited by Wishiwasnthereto at 6:52 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]

Marz posted 4/10/2019 06:52 AM

IMO if you want to R take a good hard look. Are the conditions and signs there to make it worthwhile?

Most BS's upfront just want them back and ignore everything else. Some don't even think to determine if it is a deal breaker or not.

If you don't have transparency, true remourse (regret at getting caught doesn't mean shit), a wayward that is willing to put in the time and effort, exposure to make sure the affair is over you stand a big chance of getting a repeat.

The BS should take the responsibility in granting R if they don't want a repeat and have a chance at success. You see a large amount just jumping right in with no thought on what it takes to do it right.

How often do you see a betrayed ignore good solid advice?

NotTheManIwas posted 4/10/2019 08:07 AM

It occurs to me that the outrage over the generalizations made in this thread have less to do with SI's rules of engagement, and more to do with taking what's said personally. If generalizations are policed, then lets dispense with references to the "Cheaters' Playbook." Afterall, that is a generalization about Waywards commonly used here, and nobody seems incensed when that's used.

No, the outrage here appears far more personal of the "me thinks thou dost protest" variety. I'm imagining that the generalizations shared here strike a nerve for individuals who dearly love their xWayward. Heads up, folks. We don't know your loved one and aren't talking about them. Good on ya that you have one of those.

A poster spoke on a another thread about someone they know who was the Wayward, and couldn't relate to the excruciating and volatile emotions of the Betrayed until they themselves became one. And this really gets to the crux of it all. The wayward doesn't even have to have a character flaw to be a liability because until they've experienced it, they are clueless of the carnage they've wrought. How then do you trust them to be safe?

As for keeping within known statistical guidelines, that's a fool's errand, too. Fine, you say the known data says more couples experiencing infidelity don't divorce than not. But, I'll refer back to the OP's comment "there's a difference between staying together and happily married." Is there data for that? And are you going to generalize and say that balance tilts more to "happily married" after the trauma?

Look, about 50% of marriages end in divorce. About 50% of marriages experience infidelity. I'm imagining there's a large intersect there. Throw in the "staying together vs. happily now married" component and it's not a stretch to say that the math doesn't favor a "happily now married R."

These are opinions that newbies ought consider. They should go into R eyes wide open, not listening to their Waywards' words, and sans hopium. They are helped going into it with a critical eye, a guarded heart, and the full context of SI as a backdrop.

I know, I know. No amount of reasoning moves the entrenched off of their position. Good on ya for believing so staunchly in something...

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 8:17 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]

timespent posted 4/10/2019 08:08 AM

WIWHT, I feel that your post ,while contentious, is an important reminder to me as a BS to ask myself everyday if this relationship is worth the price I pay in reconciliation. Perhaps its a bitter pill to take that you could be anyone of us. I live with this uncertainty and it's important to consider all sides. So for that thank you.
The problem with generalization, for me, on this post is the under current that women cheating on men is worse than a man cheating on a woman however I do truly wish you the best and hope things get much better for you quickly.

nofeelings posted 4/10/2019 08:21 AM

I think we need more threads like this to show the other side of R - success stories are nice, but I think there are a lot more stories of R ending up in D eventually.

8 years ago I was desperate to fix it, desperate to make this work, my world was crumbling, I wanted pain to stop, was afraid and all the rest of rollercoaster that BS life is.

Looking back I wished somebody would have punched me in the face repeatedly until I woke up and realize this is not for me to fix and WS has to have desire and capacity to do all the work for R to have a chance. I think 99% of R happens because BS just wants this to be over and their M to work. They ignore most of the advice on this site and go all into R desperately holding on to hopium.

I am forever grateful to this community for healing and understanding it provided to me. It helped me more than IC or any other resource I can think about. I just wished I have followed all the advice in R forum and did not rush into it.

My WW seemed to be good candidate for R, but it was all just me taking the good and ignoring the bad. Just yesterday she told me she "checked out of the M 8 years ago" and pretty much thinks now that she is a hero for "pursuing her happiness" by having another A. I understand now that my WW did not want to do any work on real reasons why she had A and will continue to chase unicorns and rainbows for rest of her life.

[This message edited by nofeelings at 8:30 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]

sewardak posted 4/10/2019 08:33 AM

"I think we need more threads like this to show the other side of R - success stories are nice, but I think there are a lot more stories of R ending up in D eventually."

I agree with this.

But to say if you stay she'll cheat again to ALL men is not helpful in JFO.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/10/2019 08:57 AM

But to say if you stay she'll cheat again to ALL men is not helpful in JFO.

By making this comment you imply this was said. How about you find where any male poster actually said this on Wish's thread.

fareast posted 4/10/2019 09:06 AM

NotTheManIWas:

I disagree. But let me see if I understand your point. A poster comes on and says from his PERSONAL experience with infidelity he has deduced that every WW out there has a character flaw that can never change and as people they are incapable of changing and will inevitably cheat again, and any BS that tries to R will always harbor resentment and forever be plagued by doubts. And when someone points out the absurdity of someone using their PERSONAL experience to make such a massive overgeneralization, you attack them as only doing so not out of a legitimate concern that such generalizations are ludicrous on their face and do nothing to actually address getting out of infidelity, but they are only objecting to it because of their own personal situation. Hilarious. Deflect all you like. I took none of this massive overgeneralization personally. I could care less whether people R or D. No one objecting is arguing about being happily married while in R or just staying together. Deflect all you like from the point made. Such oversimplification and overgeneralization about human behavior in millions of cases of infidelity is ludicrous and deserves to be challenged.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/10/2019 09:14 AM

And when someone points out the absurdity of someone using their PERSONAL experience to make such a massive overgeneralization

fareast,

And you just made my point. If you'd countered with a message of hope based on your own experience instead of attacking by "pointing out their absurdity," then you'd have avoided the counter punch. But when you emotionally attack the poster, tensions will rise.

And I'm also left curious as to why you have to counter with an emotional outburst that includes language like "absurdity." Something said striking too close to home?

sewardak posted 4/10/2019 09:18 AM

I'm not implying it was said, it was said:

"This is for the Men who have just found out. I came to this site 11 years ago in completely traumatized and still remember the amazing feedback I received. Hereís what Iíd like to pass on now that Iíve been through it and survived.
Know this. Is she cheated your marriage is OVER period.
If you have children and can stay and be polite to your wife until theyíre 18 and not bring up the affair I would encourage you to do so. MNo kids. Leave immediately no matter what the cost. But donít kid yourself. If you stay sheíll cheat again."

Read the first sentence and the last sentence.

NotTheManIwas posted 4/10/2019 09:27 AM

Hmmm... point taken. Good on ya for ferreting that one out. Now then, let's abolish the use of "the Cheaters' Playbook" because that's a massive generalization, too.

fareast posted 4/10/2019 09:32 AM

Nothing emotional about a generalization being absurd. Wifehad5 described it as well. I have already posted my thoughts and support for the OPís efforts at R. Why did you feel the need to delve into anyoneís motivation to point out the fallacy of such oversimplification? It seems like an easy thing to see. There is no need of you to defensive. If you want to support his generalization so be it. But others have the right to point out the fallacy without having their motivations questioned. Pretty simple.

And that certainly is enough of my t/j.😎

[This message edited by fareast at 9:34 AM, April 10th (Wednesday)]

NotTheManIwas posted 4/10/2019 09:37 AM

And that certainly is enough of my t/j

nice recovery...

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