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Different perspective

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woundedbear posted 11/15/2018 16:54 PM

I hear you. I got some of those too. It was the fantasy talking. I love you, but I am not in love with you....yadda yadda yadda. Now when she faces up to that crap, she has to deal with shame and embarrassment.

I guess what I am saying is that we can give perspective from our experiences and the brief glimpses we get from your posts. We get a small % of the story. And you only have small parts of the whole picture, which is excruciating as a BH. So advice here usually is more of a projection of our own experiences rather than a good game plan for your life. Only you can put the pieces together to figure out what to do, we can offer support.

As for Hopium, its not so bad, as long as it is dosed with reality too. Without hope what do we have? But hope is not enough, you have to see positive forward progress.

Have a great weekend, leave all this behind in your head for a while, and enjoy being you with your friends. It will help. Peace.

AFL1000 posted 11/15/2018 18:04 PM

ATG Glad you are getting time out with your friend in WA. I am sure your marital problems will come up at some time in your conversations. Knowing you for so long he will probably offer advice that can help you work through all this drama. I find long-term friends often have insights about us as individuals and our relationships and can see through any bullshit, and if he is a good friend will not sugar-coat his personal views about the situation you find yourself in.

I personally wouldn't read too much into your wife's actions when you left early in the morning. Perhaps she was tired, or even a bit pissed off that you were still going interstate and doing something for yourself that did not involve her!

For me the biggest indicator will be how she communicates with you while you are away. How much she initiates texts or calls and what is said in those conversations for me would say a lot about her mindset about you and the marriage. Failure by her to regularly contact you to see how you are going and updating you on what she is doing would very telling.

Enjoy your time with friends in Perth.

Buster123 posted 11/15/2018 21:59 PM

I donít think that she will catch up with the AP ; he is still blocked on all her social media . My wife will have the kids and she hasnít booked the nanny for the weekend.

As others have said, don't be so sure of this, she can easily unblock OM then block him back before you return, or simply create another profile and friend him (seen it here and other forums many times), she's known him for a while so she probably knows his phone number by heart, she can get a burner phone, she can meet him during the kids activities, she can call him at work, hire another nanny (ask your kids if she did), etc., I mean it looks like you haven't read enough here (understandable since you have a lot on your plate now), you won't believe how creative a WS can get when they want to break NC, if they want to do it, they will, it's up to you whether you want to put the effort to remain vigilant, (you may hire a PI over the phone if you want to catch them if they meet somewhere), TBH based on her previous breaks of NC, her reaction after DDay and slow "progress" I would give her chances of breaking it again versus not breaking NC a 75/25% chance she will do it again during your vacation or shortly after (again I hope I'm wrong), but anyway at the end of the day, if she does it will come up eventually so please enjoy your vacation with friends.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:09 PM, November 15th (Thursday)]

Atg100 posted 11/15/2018 22:51 PM

I have thought of all those options.
She would not be able to use another nanny- our daughter would not tolerate this. She is 4. She only allows my wife, occasionally me and the nanny to bring her to bed.
If there would be a new nanny, I would know about it.
My boy would tell me anyway.
I couldnít imagine that she invites the AP into our house.
But of course - all those things need to be considered based on past experiences and what other members have posted here.
I can check her email and Facebook but not her texts .

Whatever would happen, it would come out I think.

On that note - Iím off to the airport to forget about all this for 2 days.

Stevesn posted 11/16/2018 07:17 AM

Have a good trip. You deserve it.

Buster123 posted 11/16/2018 13:14 PM

Enjoy your weekend with friends.

Atg100 posted 11/19/2018 02:30 AM

I had a great weekend , catching up with my friend was good.
I discussed my situation with him and his wife and it was actually his wife who made an interesting comment:
ď in the end itís all hormonal and there isnít much you can do ď
She described her own life where she met another man who started texting her - and this affair took over all of her thinking . And when thinking back now, she can only admit to not thinking straight at that time ( my friend is her second husband, her first husband passed away . The affair happened in her first marriage ).
I guess that is another way of describing the fog.

My wife texted me frequently throughout the weekend.
She bought a bottle of champagne which we drank when I came home Sunday night .
She spend all her free time in the evening reading the ď barefoot investor ď a book currently popular in Australia .
She did not read ď not just friends ď, which I thought was disappointing. She looked after the children well.
She did do a lot of work in the garden and as far as I can see from my surveillance , she didnít catch up or contact the AP.
The second disappointing thing is , that her IC session will be on Friday afternoon . So no chance this week for a joint MC session.
For me personally , the weekend was very good.
I gained some more perspective and it allowed me to see my own position as one of strength.
One of the things my friendís wife also said was ;ď you wonít stay single for long, if you should get divorced ď
Whilst other women are actually not on my mind at all at present, it was good to hear this from another female.
I have also been able to exercise more regularly again in the last two weeks, and kept this up whilst I was away.
I usually exercise a lot, but in particular in October , I just didnít do as much as I wanted to.
All this made me a little bit more calm , so I will watch and wait.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 2:40 AM, November 19th (Monday)]

Stevesn posted 11/19/2018 17:42 PM

Welcome home. Iím glad it appears she didnít contact the OM. Of course she still works with him occasionally.

The champagne was a nice touch.

Itís too bad she isnít telling you that youíre the love of her life because she might actually be a candidate for R.

But she wonít do that. Champagne aside she wonít commit to you forever.

At this point you really need that joint session. Itís too bad it wonít be before next week.

If sheís not willing to take the steps needed to repair a marriage fully, then you are either wasting your time or setting yourself up for a life In limbo.

Have you talked to the MC to co firm when you can come in together?

Since talking is so difficult then perhaps your WW should write each other letters about how you feel and what you want. It could make it easier to communicate and work thru issues.

Atg100 posted 11/19/2018 17:50 PM

Thanks
I made it clear to the marriage councillor, how difficult the current situation for me is. The councillor canít be in any doubt, yet, it appears to be my task to wait?
You are correct, superficially itís all quite nice - champagne , house in order , gardening , all this looks to me like carpet sweeping.
The counter argument is, that we canít spend all of our time talking about the affair and that just some pleasant time in a partnership will be useful .
Thatís surely true to some degree .
But I have so many unanswered questions, I have learned not to bring them up at home , given my wifeís immature reactions.
Also not reading ď not just friends ď is clearly avoiding confrontation with challenging issues.
But Iím not falling for it, these matters need to be discussed in counselling - by the sounds of it , next week.

Atg100 posted 11/20/2018 18:20 PM

The waiting and letting time pass is good and bad.
Nothing gets resolved and I have questions just as I had them since the 2nd of August.
The good thing about it is :
The emotional stress slowly resolved.
I exercise more, sleep better and perform better at work.
Whilst the affair occupied all my thinking , I can stop thinking about it and am more relaxed within myself.
However - I will not take part in a carpet sweep.
My questions are still not answered.
My wife is superficially happy but claims constant tiredness .
Today she has a day off to herself , both kids are in school or kindergarten . I will see if she feels better or if she even reads ď not just friends ď
I doubt it though.
Iíll let you know when we have MC , nothing on the radar.
I emailed the counsellor this morning .

NoOptTo posted 11/20/2018 19:21 PM

Keeping moving forward ATG. Watch your WW actions. Stand by your values. If she cant be a safe partner, your better off without her. Hope6you can start getting your questions answered soon. If not, you may have to take action into your own hands and start separating yourself from her.

AFL1000 posted 11/20/2018 20:02 PM

Hey ATG Pleased you had a great weekend with your friend and his wife. Did your friend's wife provide you with any other insights into the mind of a WW given her own affair history with her first husband.

Glad also that your wife texted you frequently while you were away ...any I love you; miss you in amongst the texts?

Your wife at the moment still seems fairly intent on rug sweeping the issues and this just adds to your ongoing frustration with her, although I take encouragement in your statements that your emotional stress has slowly lessened, you are back into better exercise and sleep patterns and that you can have periods where your thoughts are not occupied by the affair. These are all very positive outcomes for you and I'm very glad to see it. Your personal physical and psychological health is paramount at this time.

You mentioned in your last post that your wife is superficially happy but claims constant tiredness. Like millions of others I have had clinical depression and one of my abiding memories of it was the constant feeling of tiredness. Is it possible in reflecting on her actions during the affair it could be leading her into a depression episode. As a med practitioner I should be the last to tell you about depression but when my wife developed depression I missed all the obvious signs because it was 'too close to home'. At times she would be a flurry of activity and at other times could hardly get off the couch claiming she was just too tired.

Hope your wife's IC is productive this week and we are all hanging out for how the MC session goes next week.

Atg100 posted 11/20/2018 21:57 PM

My wife is on antidepressants but also had a mild sinus infection .
Our kids are a handful , so she had other good reasons to be tired .
I think she says she is tired to avoid talking to me in the evening ; and thatís ok - none of our discussions late in the evening have led to anything positive.
Next time we talk about the affair will hopefully during daytime in a MC session.
My wife had today off and she trained quite hard for her triathlon, by combining all 3 disciplines today.
She felt great afterwards and called me quite happy during my lunch break.
No ď I love you ď messages .
She was grateful that I encouraged her to sign up for the event.
So no tiredness during the day, but Iím guessing she will be exhausted tonight ....

Atg100 posted 11/20/2018 23:28 PM

Somewhat unrelated but some food for thought .
Iím listening to the Joe Rogan podcast, where he talks to William von Hippel, a behavioural psychologist , who talks about evolutionary changes from our early ancestors to todayís Homo sapiens.
Joe challenges him by quoting the book ď sex at dawnĒ, stating that humans are not meant to be monogamous and that promiscuity used to be the norm.
I have thought about this recently a lot - because itís not what I think is correct for me. But even in modern media, you read a lot of articles about the ď awakening of womenĒ who become sexually more confident. You read of polyarmory and swinging couples . ( I guess that swinging may be ok for some couples but the first step for that would be honesty amongst partners , not the lying and deception which happens in an affair ).
Neither polyarmory or swinging would be for me, I have got to say.

Anyway - Van Hippel states that this theory is ď bullshit ď.
He argues that human behaviour has got a well established jealousy response, which is not accidental .
Also - he argues that animals who are promiscues such as bonobo monkeys , have got much larger testicle sizes .
A high sperm volume is required to compete in an promiscues society . Humans have much smaller testicles , suggesting that monogamy is the evolutionary norm.

It was good to hear him say that with such confidence .
For me , monogamy is normal and what I want to stick to within my marriage .

Atg100 posted 11/21/2018 22:42 PM

As expected, my wife was too tired to talk much last night.
We did however discuss that she would take my car today as her car needs a repair - and the dealer is right next to my work.
I drive a Ford Ranger and she mentioned that she hates parking this car at her work place.
The car is big, and the multi story car park where she works quite narrow.
She said " other guys at work also have a Ranger, so I should be ok"
Oddly enough, her AP also has a Ranger - and I knew that, but she wasn't aware that I know what car he drives.
I said " yes, the AP has the same car"

Deadly silence .

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it, but I felt I give her just a snapshot of what I know, as this topic had never been discussed.
It's not a game but at this stage she will be wondering what else do I know.

( The AP has a number plate stating " ACE", which makes me nauseous straight away)

She has IC tomorrow, again,I don't expect her to open up and discuss things afterwards.
But I hope it will finally open the path for MC next week.

AFL1000 posted 11/21/2018 23:07 PM

Nice one ATG

"Yes the AP has the same car". Now her mind wheels are spinning ...How the f*** did he know that and what else does he know. Given the deadly silence you may have struck a nerve ...esp if it was a means for them to hookup. Really his licence plate is ACE!!!!

Just be cautious with accidentally revealing any other little gems that may give Mrs ATG a clue on how and where you are getting your information.

[This message edited by AFL1000 at 11:30 PM, November 21st (Wednesday)]

Atg100 posted 11/21/2018 23:35 PM

The number plate is ď ACEĒ
He is bold, looks unfit , lies about his own marital status to the nurses in the hospital and lied about his affair to his wife and daughter.


Occasionally I catch myself thinking ď if my wife thinks that she is better off with this guy, then she should just leave and be with himĒ
This guy is a disgrace.

My councillor explained this differently :
My wife apparently is a ď giver ď
I am also a ď giver ď and that makes my wife unfulfilled.
This guy is a ď taker ď and that makes my wife happy.
I think itís bullshit.
This guy is a rep and must have the gift of the gab.

[This message edited by Atg100 at 11:37 PM, November 21st (Wednesday)]

Carissima posted 11/22/2018 02:30 AM

Hi ATG

I've just read through your thread and was wondering if the reason your wife's progress was so slow was because she's had no real consequences.

I mean she still lives in the same house, has the same job, goes out with her friends, has been on vacations, goes on dates with you. I bet there's been no restrictions put on her finances either? What reason does she have to make choices? She probably doesn't think you'll progress with the divorce, if for no other reason than to protect your boys.

With regards to NC, I would just say that it's easy to use work resources to contact him the 2 days she's there and it also gives them ample places to meet. If you're going to R she needs to get a new job and this should'nt be met with any resistance.

Lastly, can I ask do you share an IC? I'm unsure, at times it seemed like you are both seeing your MC for IC. The way you write it's almost as if your IC is sharing what your WW is telling them.

Atg100 posted 11/22/2018 03:20 AM

We started with MC first, our counsellor quickly decided that it was far too early and split us into individual sessions.
She disclosed some of the things my wife told her and vice versa. She said she would only disclose certain things which she thought was helpful.

After I saw the divorce lawyer, my wife and I thought for nearly a fortnight that D is the only solution.
So she had some time to think about being a single mum.
The holiday happened before the final betrayal - when my wife met the AP right after we came back.

We then decided to give counseling a go and see if things may work out.
We felt it would be best for the kids if we live together until we have more clarity .

My wife hasnít gone out and come home drunk now for weeks.
She has hardly had any alcohol and only has met with friends who I would think are friends of the marriage.

Our counsellor fell sick for nearly two weeks ; that didnít help.

But summarising : she hasnít had a good hard dose of reality , which would have helped.

Atg100 posted 11/22/2018 16:38 PM

a very difficult discussion with my wife .
This discussion took place after we talked about plans for Christmas and after we chose a new mirror for our bedroom.
She stated that she has no feelings for me and that I deserve better. She described herself as mentally unstable and she chose those exact words.
I said that it would be a shame to give up now, after we hadnít seen the counselor for weeks.
I felt that we hadnít really given it a chance to see if MC is for us.
Also - and I was frank : I told her that she may be depressed. She agreed to see her psychiatrist .
I told her that if she still feels the same way after seeing the counselor and the psychiatrist , then I will respect her wishes and that she should then move out.
She said a few other things which made me think that she is really not well.
Now the other option is that she saw the AP yesterday at work and that this shit is still going on.
But I reinforced : she doesnít need to leave me because she feels I deserve better . I would tell her when I had enough, but with these long gaps in between seeing the counsellor and her not seeing a psychiatrist , I know I would regret if we hadnít explored this option .
She didnít say much .

Of course - this could be the old ď itís not you , itís me ď of someone who is too cowardish to admit that she has feelings for the AP .
But I have this doubt that she maybe depressed and confuses the anhedonia with lack of love.
I think itís worth exploring before we go on the very painful and expensive path of separation. But it sounds like clarity will come soon, one way or the other .

[This message edited by Atg100 at 4:40 PM, November 22nd (Thursday)]

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