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Long Term Affairs Part 38

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LifeisCrazy posted 7/10/2018 07:19 AM

Good morning. I'll try to keep this somewhat brief although, on this topic, I feel like I could write a book.

As has been pointed out, one of the critical requirements for reconciliation is time. There really is no substitute. If you think about it, you probably had a girlfriend in high school and you thought she was the bomb (ok, if you didn't I'm sure that you will understand my analogy). Then (unless you married her), you broke up and you thought, "How will I ever get past this?" Well, you did. And if you're anything like me you probably look back on that time of your life and just shake your head and smile.

In a small way that experience is reflective of what you are going through now - though on a significantly smaller scale. The lesson to take is that as time moves along we are able to look at our emotional experiences more objectively. We can step back and see them without them altering our daily life or our interactions with others. And, unfortunately, two months past discovery is simply WAY too soon for that to have happened.

So... lesson one: how long does it take to get there? Well, here's the honest answer - 6+ years down the road and I STILL think about my wife's affair. It's still in my head and probably always will be. But it no longer encompasses me. It no longer affects my relationship. For me... it took a solid 3 years to begin truly moving forward. I'm sure that time frame varies but it certainly does not occur at 2 months. You're simply going to need to hang in there.

Second lesson: your healing will be directly tied to your wife's actions. Time alone will NOT heal this wound. Furthermore, ALL of the typical requirements for reconciliation - no contact, transparency, etc. - ALL the things that are recommended in the days/months after discovery are only the tip of the iceberg. Without them there can be no reconciliation... so, yes, they are an absolute requirement. However, a time will come when you realize that your wife is actually no longer cheating. She has, in fact, recommitted to the marriage. You will no longer feel worried every time she steps out of the house or when you see her texting from across the room.

Yet you will still hurt.

The "better marriage" of which I speak will only occur when she does something super important - and it's something that not every person (certainly not every WS) is capable of doing.... and that is putting you and the marriage above herself. Simple, huh?

There are a ton of people who do this naturally (I am one of them and it sounds like you are, too). There are also people who need to learn this critical skill - and still others who are simply incapable.

My wife actually needed a come-to-Jesus moment in which she FINALLY, after almost 25 years, realized that she had to put me first. Period. She had to come to me. Be an active "giver" in our marriage. Do things just because she knew it would make me feel good - even if she didn't want. And, yes, that includes sex in all its positions, frequency, and variations. Anything I wanted or needed, she needed to be in. That was a huge realization and transformation for her. In fact, I'm not sure that I ever recall her doing that in all the years I had known her. It required her to put away her selfishness... something that required introspection and therapy and time and, maybe, an internal awakening.

However, THAT realization was mission critical to ME. I needed to see this type of effort - and see it on a consistent basis.

So, in regard to this lesson, what I learned is that my wife didn't innately know how to heal me. In truth, she really didn't know how to be a good partner. And this became part of the lesson that we BOTH had to learn. I needed her to be a better partner and she needed me to help her become one.

I had to tell her - point blank - what I needed from her. I had to learn to communicate - the same thing that I had been so awful at for the first 20 years of my marriage. I had to sit her down at the kitchen table, look her right in the eyes, and say, "There are things I need. They are non-negotiable. The first one is ______." I had to lay it out to her, plain and simple. And guess what? It was embarrassing as hell for me - I was brought up in a way that suggested that you don't talk that way to girls. But I had to learn to talk to my wife so that she knew what I needed... after all, how else would she know? You see, I always thought that she simply SHOULD know... like she should somehow see through me (have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy????).

In essence, I realized that she needed to come around to me - and, yet, I needed to come around to her, too. I talk about this when I discuss couples moving TOWARD each other. When the time comes in your marriage when you realize that you're not leaving - and SHE'S not leaving - you're actually going to fight through this infidelity shit and try to come out the other side - you have to move TOWARD each other.

And that's really lesson number 3. You will have to learn (down the road, it's still too raw right now) that your wife - just like you - is not perfect. Not just because of the affair... that will be old hat by the time you learn this... but as a human. We all are. For example, I got upset the other night because after (finally) learning to initiate sex she turned me down. What?!? WTF!!! After she cheats on me she is now going to turn me, her husband, down?

But guess what? She was tired. And she's allowed to be tired. Just because (years ago) she jumped up to fuck some guy doesn't mean that she ALWAYS has to be on call for me. People can't live like that and my expectation of it was inappropriate, affair or no affair. And, yes, there was a time when I did demand it because I was still hurt. But healing means that we BOTH need to heal, and understand, and show empathy... and move toward one another. There comes a time when the WS can no longer live like a second class citizen in the marriage - your wife will have to regain her "status" and be on equal footing - despite her affair.

And that time will come - if you want it to come. If not, you will continue to play the game that so many on this site continue to play. A reconciled marriage that maintains the same shitty parameters that were present before the affair. A BS that continues to suffer.

Why be that person? You have an opportunity that very few people have in their marriage - you have a chance to hit the do-over button. You think you're going to get that with someone new? That person will have their OWN baggage. But here you get the chance to start fresh... to make new parameters and a new way for your marriage to proceed - in a way that makes you TRULY happy. And, if one of you isn't up for it, then end the marriage. Simple! But if you've decided to give it a go... then give it the very best shot you've got. But that's a lesson for two years from now

Wow - I have a lot to say on this matter but will end here. Please feel free to each out either here on via PM.

Good luck, brother.

[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 9:43 AM, July 10th (Tuesday)]

gmc94 posted 7/11/2018 16:02 PM

Thanks LifeIsCrazy - always good to remember how important time is....

steadychevy posted 7/11/2018 19:55 PM

I'm so glad you made this latest post on this thread of ICR.

Things like lesson 1 and 2 are so well stated. The few paragraphs on a better marriage WS coming to the table are such a good lesson. I do believe I've communicated my needs both before the adultery and after DDay. My WW couldn't or wouldn't work towards them. I think it was couldn't. I wonder what might happen if she came to me now. Probably too little too late. Probably wouldn't happen anyway.

Thanks for your post. A good read for all. LTA or not.

hopeandhealing posted 7/12/2018 01:04 AM

Thanks LifeisCrazy.
I agree with your post, I think as a BS, particularly one whose BS had multiple LTAs spanning essentially the lifespan of our relationship, it is difficult to allow yourself to be vulnerable, and put down the walls to move forward. We get stuck in the disbelief of what has occurred, the magnitude in the shift of what we thought was true, but clearly wasn't. We try to make sense of our pasts, what was reality, what was a lie. It seems like so much of it is now tainted. We question what was real, was any of the happiness real? Who really is this person in front of us? This was not a "blip" a "poor choice", this was repetitive behaviour, over years and lies over decades to cover it up...but lucky for my WH, I believe in the possibility of change and being better, so I wait.

My WH and I attended a MC session this week and she advised exactly what you have said, that we have to connect and move towards each other if we hope to have a positive R. I know this to be true, but yet I find myself at times volitionally choosing to hold myself back i.e. consciously choose not to hold his hand etc, I think there are a myriad of reasons for this behaviour i.e. he doesn't deserve my affection after what he has done, it is offering forgiveness, which I am not ready to do, it is "protecting" me, acting as armour by not showing I really care a (I know logically this is actually the opposite and works against R, but logic doesn't always apply in healing from an A).

I don't know if the expression "time heals all wounds" applies for infidelity, but I can say with each passing day, week and month, I feel stronger and able to move forward, to be vulnerable because my WH is showing me in his actions that it is safe to do so. I don't want to worry about his actions, I don't want to exert energy in that regard, life is too short. If this man has the capacity to hurt and betray me again after seeing how broken I was after dday, then so be it, I walk away with my head high knowing I was gracious enough to offer R and he was too broken of a soul to accept it. So far, all indications are this is not the case.

I said to my WH early on in R that my biggest condition was for him to put me and our M first in his decision making. If whatever he was considering wasn't a win for me our our newly developing M, then it was a no go. He has had 22 years to be selfish and entitled and the next 22 years he was to think about me first. Like you said, this wasn't natural for him, but he has owned the tasks and has recently been the partner I have deserved (and been asking for) the last 22 years. Sustainability will be the key to our longevity. In return, I need to acknowledge his effort and put some in myself. I can't keep him wearing the asshole hat forever. Do I want him every to forget? Absolutely not, but he needs to move forward too if he is going to heal and be the partner I want and deserve.

In some ways, the possibilities of the new M are exciting. I am trying to keep this focus to stay out of the rabbit holes and get out of the hurt and anger.

GMC,
I can so relate to your feelings and am sorry for your pain. I know what it feels like to feel like the past 20 some odd years are a lie and therefore all that occurred is minimized/tainted. I am trying very hard not to let his selfish decisions change the beautiful memories I have. I will not give him or them that power. Those experiences and the emotions I felt were real and I believe they were to your WH as well. Your post to him was how you felt. Your words were beautiful and those feelings were real.

WS are innately selfish, entitled. As non wayward, we can't understand their thinking/behaviour (I am grateful) and in trying to do so, we often say things like "how did you not think about me, the kids etc?". The reality is, they didn't, at all. They thought about themselves and in my WH case, he thought exclusively about getting off...a lot. They compartmentalize, tell themselves they're entitled, or this is their soul mate or some other equally devoid of reality justification for their behaviour, which in most cases, is inconsistent with their own moral codes (unless they are sociopaths). This isn't about you and your memories are yours to keep and hold dear to you, they were very real and are meaningful.

My IC said, "your WH didn't do this to you, he did this to your M". That really resonated with me (I know I am part of the marriage, but it wasn't a direct act against me...it really isn't about or any other BS).

((())) to us all.

amanda123 posted 7/19/2018 16:21 PM

hopeandhealing I love what you write and how you express yourself. I read and reread your last post just the last comment doesnt sit well with me.

I have to say honestly that I do not agree with your IC. To say that our BSs did not do this to us, is a far cry from what my reality says to me. It is almost like your IC is saying dont take it personally. How can my H ruining my life for 16 years, at times being such a horrible bastard, mentally and verbally abusing me and someone say he didnt do it to me he did it to the marriage? Im sorry that kind of shit you take personally. He did do it to me and the marriage and himself. Not just the marriage.

I dont know the relative thinking of such a comment perhaps a one night stand but certainly not anything long term or someone having multiple affairs.

gmc94 posted 7/20/2018 15:15 PM

As to the "did it to the M" vs me or himself, I guess I'm kind of with Amanda on this one

WH absolutely did this to himself - first and foremost. What I used to think was a lapse of morals or integrity, I now wonder if he ever had them wrt love/women to begin with (long story - basically any "serious" relationship my WH has EVER had included infidelity whether he was the wayward, betrayed, or AP).

Me and the M were the "collateral damage", but the idea that one would drop a bomb and not realize that things get blown up just doesn't add up (tho, when it comes to wayward thinking, I am also grateful that it doesn't make sense to me).

CaliforniaNative posted 7/21/2018 08:53 AM

Hopeandhealing

“your WH didn't do this to you, he did this to your M”

You say he had multiple long term affairs... he saw how this hurt you time and time again and he continued to do it. Sorry, but ithat seems to be personal. After hurting someone once, many of us would stop, especially if it was someone we loved.

[This message edited by CaliforniaNative at 8:54 AM, July 21st (Saturday)]

Bestthing posted 7/22/2018 08:28 AM

I feel I can overcome all the pieces of his affairs except for the duration of the last one. It was 3 years and the last year was only occasional text/phone calls. I know many of you unfortunately are going through storms more harrowing. I am sorry, truly sorry for the unnecessary pain we were dealt.

My question is what is it about the duration that hurt so much for you? I feel like if I break it down, I can process one piece of pain at a time. For now, I can start to feel good. Wow today is a gorgeous summer day and then the thought “yeah but it was 3 years!” would hit me, my heart would cramp up and I want to cry. There is no progress after that thought, just a wall that bounces me back on my butt. I want to slowly chip away at that wall.

MalibuBayBreeze posted 7/22/2018 09:28 AM

I'm with Amanda. Long term infidelity is very personal, and yes it was done to us. I don't care what any therapist or WS says, that it was about them, their selfishness, their issues. Bullshit. They knew what they were doing, month after month, year after year. Sneaking around behind our backs, making plans, forming relationships, giving their all to someone else who is just as shitty a person as they are. All while depriving the BS of time, effort, emotion, sex, and often treating the BS like the red headed step child.

It is personal. Very personal. This isn't a casual friend, it is our spouse making choices that they knew full well would destroy us if discovered. They just don't care. They demonize us to themselves and especially the AP so they can sleep at night. Taking the marital history and rewriting it to benefit them. The amount of deceit and work put into sustaining a LTA is an attack against the spouse and the marriage. Fog, FOO issues, narcissism, and all the other excuses be damned. That's all they are, excuses, made for simply abhorrent behavior against someone they supposedly love.

Bestthing,
The duration is I think the biggest wound. Years. Years with some shadowy figure lurking in your own marriage. Sharing your spouse and building a relationship with them. No affair season in a LTA, the entire calendar year encompasses the A. Every holiday, birthday, vacation, anniversary. Everything.

My WH's LTA was at least 4 years. No, I do not have a definitive time line, and have no idea exactly when it began. I can surmise strongly though based on his behavior towards me, my DS and DD, our marriage, his detachment, and red flags everywhere.

It's the length of the betrayal that hurts the most. It is my biggest hurdle and I do not know that I can get past it. It has changed me forever, and I will never look at or feel about him the same way. He has shown me his capability for living a dual life. Of being able to look me in the eye after coming home from fucking her. That he was able to have good times with me while cheating, so when we have them now I am not at all lulled into the belief that it means anything because it doesn't. Planning vacations, talks about future plans. Now I just sit here and listen and it's all white noise to me. My inner soul screams in pain as he talks about our future together as if it's a given. The fact that I am in limbo, very unsure of what path to take and considering taking one that no longer includes him isn't even on his radar. I guess I am that good of an actress because my inner turmoil is unknown to him.

Years of our lives. Years. What we have had stolen from us is indescribable. There aren't enough words.

[This message edited by MalibuBayBreeze at 9:32 AM, July 22nd (Sunday)]

Bestthing posted 7/22/2018 09:59 AM

Malibubaybreeze,

Two things you pointed out especially resonated with me. I feel he invited the shadowy figure into my life and home. Some thing that bothers me terribly is that for 3 years, she could have snooped around my Facebook posts. I am not a vain person, so I don’t stage perfect selfies. I just lived life, make up and mostly with no make up. She probably looked at these photos of me and thought I was below her for 3 years. I feel invaded and my WH didn’t protect me. Now I can’t simply be myself on FB anymore. In the back of my mind, a rival is lurking. The second thing is how to handle the GOOD times in the past. I really thought we were not bad for a couple in our 40s. I felt his devotion to me. I am not sure how to own the good memories in travel photos anymore. I want to take them off the wall. Instead of Takal in the background, I see “this is around their 5th hotel tryst together.” I think I will take those frames down today.

CaliforniaNative posted 7/22/2018 12:06 PM

Bestthing,

The double life he lead is the worst. I would come home and share everything about my day and he would only share snapshots and lie about his. The amount of disrespect he had for me, our marriage and our son. The lying and manipulation to my face every day. He asked me to stay home with our son while he planned a get away to my favorite restaurant. He spent my money! Too many to list. I am getting angry thinking about it all lol. This is why I filed for D.

Speaking of vacations, I know on our last family vacation he slipped away to call her and let her know he was thinking about her. Vomit.

[This message edited by CaliforniaNative at 12:12 PM, July 22nd (Sunday)]

MalibuBayBreeze posted 7/22/2018 13:23 PM

Bestthing
FB was their little world. I wanted no part of social media, it reeked of trouble to me. He of course signed right up and would not let me have access to it. Told me to join and send him a friend request, knowing I wouldn't. I should have. That bitch was "liking" photos of my husband, son, dog, cats, even my 10th anniversary bouquet he bought me from our wedding florist. I didn't exist, nor did my DD (he is not her biological dad) and you would have thought he was a single dad looking at it. They both knew I wasn't on it and it was a cesspool for them to communicate. I joined less than 2 years ago at the behest of friends and after DDay. I wanted her to see me, see who I am if she was lurking. I blocked her once a mutual friend requested me and I've noticed she immediately backed off and hasn't liked or commented on that friends page since. Yeah, I'll count the number of likes. Bitch saw I was now a mutual friend and ran and hid like the waste of space she is.

The good times. I don't know what to make of them. Were they really or was it all just an act? And now, I don't trust shit. Yes we can laugh together, go out, have an active sex life but none of it means anything anymore. It's just gone. All the mushy feelings of love, my hopeless romantic idiot self, my trust, gone. Looking back on photos or thinking of memories hurts. No one has ever betrayed me on such an off the hook level, boyfriends cheating were child's play in comparison. And I have never stayed with a cheater before. That's the other hard part, living with someone who now seems to care (who knows) but felt comfortable treating me like shit for years in favor of a married whore.

There is no coming back from this. D or R, life will never be the same.

steadychevy posted 7/22/2018 15:29 PM

Very descriptive and well said this morning, MBB.

gmc94 posted 7/23/2018 00:00 AM

YES to all MBB said

Years with some shadowy figure lurking in your own marriage. Sharing your spouse and building a relationship with them. No affair season in a LTA, the entire calendar year encompasses the A. Every holiday, birthday, vacation, anniversary. Everything.

And the FB shit too.
I tagged my WH in all my photos - every vacation, good time, dinner with DD/DS, every fucking ANNIVERSARY for nearly decade (tho that's only the PA - the EA? probably the entire M). She saw them. She saw me publicly saying what a swell guy my WH is. It kills me. And that he did not PROTECT me from it is so unbelievably hurtful - he could have had his frigging cake w/o letting his mistress see MY life, w/o sharing MY story with her. But he didn't see a damned thing wrong with it - the ONLY thing he's ever said about it (and only in response to a question I had to ask) was her saying she didn't like looking at his FB bc his profile pic was one of the two of us together, on a gondola in Venice. He thinks he should get brownie points bc he didn't "change" anything after his mistress made that comment. The hurt is palpable on that front.

And honestly, the duration is THE thing I don't know if I can ever overcome.

Just Friday night I asked about the movie Moonstruck. One of my favs, but has a thread thru the entire film of a wife asking everyone "why do men cheat" bc she knows her long term husband is having an A.
So I ask my WH, how can he sit with me and watch that film probably 20+ times (I watch it 2-4 times/yr) since the PA began and never, not once, think to himself: I'm a cheater - I am sleeping with another woman?
his response? Compartmentalization. He says he never once thought about what he was up to while watching that film. Or while he'd watch the tv show Cheaters at 3am when he couldn't sleep (sometimes I'd come to the living room and watch with him!). I don't know if/when I'll be able to watch that film again. I used to think WH and I were like the Cher/Nick Cage characters.... now I realize I'm Olympia Dukakis (who also could not cheat - because she's a "grown woman").

Its intellectually astounding, but emotionally scary as hell. He can live a double life - for a very very long time. Not sure how to make that "safe" ever.

Oh - and this:

That he was able to have good times with me while cheating, so when we have them now I am not at all lulled into the belief that it means anything because it doesn't.

Nail on the head. Others on SI have reminded me that there is no more "normal". It's a good thing to remember, esp with an LTA

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:09 AM, July 23rd (Monday)]

MalibuBayBreeze posted 7/23/2018 12:49 PM

Thanks Steady......

GMC94,
I had suspected for years, too afraid to dig. I know MAJOR denial and idiocy on my part. Anyway, I discovered by chance the crumbs that led me on a 3 month journey to him finally admitting what I had suspected for so long. In the beginning of December 2015. The same week my eldest estranged brother passed away. Liver disease. When I told my WH he had passed, he didn't even so much as offer a condolence. He is completely estranged from everyone in his family, long story, and he hates his older brother. But you can bet that if he or any other family member of his passed away, I would have the common decency to say I was sorry.

He said nothing. A month later when I found the password to our cell account, I saw he called his married bitch right after I told him and had gone to another room to talk to my other brother on the phone.

After DDay I screamed at him, asking why the fuck that bitch needed to know my brother had died. What fucking business was it of hers? Then I said "Oh, let me guess, you had plans to meet up that week and were calling to say you wouldn't be able to make it right?" Again he said nothing so I know I was right. Thing is my deceased brother wanted no service, so 2 weeks later we scattered his ashes at sea as was his wish, since my dad's are there as well. So after saying that to him I followed with "Oh but since there were no services for you to be caught up in you probably called her back and said you were free to fuck, right?" Again crickets.

The coldness, the heartlessness, the flat out fuckery of it all will never cease to amaze me. It just is so far beyond my realm of understanding.

Sorry for the potty mouth, that's how I roll when I'm pissed off.

[This message edited by MalibuBayBreeze at 12:51 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]

hopefull77 posted 7/23/2018 15:51 PM

It still burns me that my H showed AP our daughters wedding pictures ...
He chastised me for showing my BFF her wedding dress ...and yes my daughter didn't want anyone to see it...so I felt bad... guess what our daughter asked us not to share the pics either since her in-laws hadn't seen them yet...
It's this kind of shit that really did INFURIATE me...now I just shake my head
They lived a total separate life...the thing I have learned though I will NEVER tolerate that treatment ... Ever...
I know that Reconciling is going to be a life long part of our marriage now...and that the "before" and "after" is also a new way of looking at myself and him...
Peace everyone

gmc94 posted 7/24/2018 11:05 AM

The "before" and "after" is a mindf*ck for me.

Thee kind of was no "before"..... in one way or another (secret friend then EA, then PA) it's all "during".

One day at a time here, one day at a frigging time.

Chaos posted 7/24/2018 11:06 AM

HI all!

I just survived what I call my Year of Firsts. I had looked at every little thing my "first _____ since DDay".

Since I am starting Year 2, it is affair season, and I'm having a dip in the Roller Coaster from Hell...

My mind gets stuck on the L in LTA. 3 years. THREE (3) bleeping years. ~1095 days, 26,280 hours of lies. A double life.

How? How could you do this to me? To us? To our family? Repeatedly for 3 years.

To be fair, R is going well. Communication has been enhanced. He came out of the fog about 6 months post DDay and has been stepping up in doing his work.

But at the end of the day, when I dip down in the roller coaster, that's where my hang up is. Not just the A, but the length of the A. To repeat the horrific behavior over and over and over again. Lies on top of lies on top of lies.

That's my biggest fear.

WhyAgainWhyHer posted 7/24/2018 11:07 AM

The length of the affair kills me. Its either 9 or 4, depends on if you count the years she was with another guy, who apparently dumped her sorry ass. Sometimes I get so angry at that guy, why didn't he keep her. She wouldn't have reached out to my WBF and this wouldn't have restarted. Misplaced anger I know. Today is a bad day.

I know what you mean about the good times too. Our vacations together, when I now know not only was he involved with her, but sending pictures of places we visited! That is just sick.

4yearsoflies posted 7/24/2018 22:51 PM

Warning-Venting and reaffirming items from above that show we are all experiencing this together.

The walls I am working to break down when it comes to us as a couple- are consistently going back up. Not a day goes by when I don't think about four years of lies. Betrayal. The day after he finally confessed, my wedding ring came off. Every photograph of us came down from the walls. All the photo albums from that time are tucked away.

All of my memories are tainted.

Well before DD, I had made plans to spend three weeks of the summer with family and friends on the other side of the country. I'm presently away from him for the last 12 days. I have no other choice but to stuff any suspicion, worry, uncertainty - put it aside.

If he's doing it again, I just won't know. How could I know now?
He hid it for over four years.

To live with that kind of doubt all of the time, is what is so hard.

It's what makes me question everything even more.

Although I know we're working to reconcile, I'm still on the fence about what long-term will bring for me.

Thanks for letting me get it off my chest.
This is a lonely, lonely journey.

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