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Long Term Affairs Part 38

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deephurt posted 6/19/2018 07:03 AM

I think for me itís trusting that he is changed and that I could be safe that is the biggest issue.

When someone lies to you for so long, itís reakky hard to believe in a change that they say they have made. They have proven to be really good at lying so why believe now.
Sometimes it feels so real and other times the doubts are there. Doubts that he hasnít changed and that who I am seeing is a lie.

Through all the lying and betrayal, he has left me mot being able to trust my own judgement.

I agree sometimes this is a very difficult thread to follow. Itís a very painful spot to be. But we all understand what the others are going through.

I really wish none of us had a reason to be here. Itís so heartbreaking.

gmc94 posted 6/19/2018 10:15 AM

((((Deephurt))))

They have proven to be really good at lying so why believe now.

Yes. This is so hard.
Having a sense that I may NEVER trust anything he says often makes me wonder why Iím still here.

I will never trust the way I did... but will I trust at all?

And of course we donít trust our own judgment.... thatís what years of gaslighting does to a person.

I usually donít have faith in much, but Iím finding I must always have faith in myself.

donna3 posted 6/19/2018 16:26 PM


Hi all, good to be able to vent with y'all

Ah yes, the lies. So many, so often. And I found out that he has lied throughout our M. Because that was his defense: to lie. He told me it started in childhood. To get himself out of trouble he lied. And he got good at it. I used to catch his little white lies all the time. but those awful lies he gave me during the A? Why did I not see thru them. Was I so wrapped up in my life that I did not really focus on what he was doing? did I really give off the I don't care vibe that he complained about on dday? No matter, what he did was just plain wrong and he admits that.

And all the wonderful things he says to me now? He loves me, I am beautiful, sex is the best, he loves being with me, can't wait to see me. Not lies but how often did he say those very same things ( and mean them) to OW. That is a big hangup I can't get over. I am sure he meant them when he said them to her and now he says the same to me. How can I trust his words? And the fact that he said those same words to her just kills me when I hear them said to me. I know I need to separate from what was but man it is difficult.

I know he has changed, better than he has been in decades, in so many ways. I know he is remorseful and hates himself for what he did to me. He says knowing that I love him enough to stay in spite of what happened makes him work hard to earn that priveledge. I want to let go, I really do, but (deephurt) it is so very heartbreaking.

WhyAgainWhyHer posted 6/19/2018 21:33 PM

safe....after 8 years of lies, I can't see that ever happening.

gmc94 posted 6/19/2018 23:46 PM

Just noticed something funny - that the impact of words to BS or AP during the A are the same, whether it's a NSA cake eating or limerance A.

In the limerance A, the WS is telling AP the ILY and you're sexy, all that stuff. I can't imagine how I would handle that (tho it's possible my WH said those things too, he's destroyed all the evidence and I can never know for sure. I DO have evidence he used his corny lines with her, like "the world is on its proper axis" because she moved to our city )

In the cake eating A (or at least my WH's), the WS tells the BS all that stuff... while having an A. So I always got the ILY, and you're wonderful, and I'm so proud of you, I miss you, can't wait to see you.... all the gushy stuff. For the entire time he was in the EA, the PA, etc.

But the impact seems to be the same - we don't trust the very words we need to hear.
The BS of a limerance A doesn't trust bc those words were used with the fantasy AP. - if you said it to the AP and you didn't mean it - then how do I trust you mean it with me?

And in the cake eater A, the BS doesn't trust bc the relative "safety" of those words was not real - if you said it to me an hour before you screwed your AP, how could you mean it? How could that be real? Was it just to placate me so I didn't suspect anything?

And for those BS who got the gushy stuff while their WS was in a limerance A, seems like the double whammy.

Just an observation that struck me. I'm continually amazed how WS can do such destruction.... without thinking of any of the consequences.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 11:51 PM, June 19th, 2018 (Tuesday)]

MalibuBayBreeze posted 6/20/2018 08:42 AM

Deephurt

Trust.

One little word that holds so much meaning. It was the foundation of our relationships which grew into marriages. We trusted that we had a life partner, someone we would build a family with. We trusted that our hopes and dreams for the future were shared by them, that our plans were in sync. Most of all we trusted they would have our backs, and they didn't.

Epic failure.

Being this is a thread where all of us have experienced the special brand of hell known as a LTA, we all understand too well how deep the betrayal goes. Trust has left the building IMO.

Exactly, once shown the capability someone has for deceit, how on earth can you trust them again? I personally don't see a way. It almost has a feeling of keep your friends close, your enemies closer to it.

The trust issue has branched out for me and I can count on one hand the people I truly trust in this world. I look around and basically think most people are full of crap these days. I can deal with that. It's having to look at my own husband with a constant side eye that bothers me. Home should be the one place I should feel comfortable, relaxed. It shouldn't be a place where I look at him as he's talking trying to read his facial expressions or tone in his voice. It shouldn't be where I cringe when he has that phone in his hand.

It is what it is and his choices, his lack of boundaries put me here. Most infuriating? He acts as if nothing has happened. Life just goes on.

Mind blowing.

WhyAgainWhyHer posted 6/20/2018 09:04 AM

I haven;t figured out how to quote on here, but MalibuBayBreeze, your post just hit home. I find myself doubting everyone know. I'm suspicious of everything he does, and I wonder about our friends too.

hopeandhealing posted 6/20/2018 10:29 AM

I have always given my trust freely, to everyone. Historically, it has worked out well...with the massive exception of my WH. Because it is so ingrained in my nature, I find I remain trusting, potentially to my eventual detriment. Despite him being a serial cheater, I do trust he won't cheat again. Perhaps it is because he stopped on his own 5 years ago when I got too close to discovering, I don't know. Perhaps it is because to consider R, I had to trust again, believe he was in by his actions he shows me and the work he continues to do in IC. At some point, I have to look forward and leave my past in the rear view mirror.

I do believe my WH has always loved me and our children and I believe he was sincere when he said it. It took me a lot of work to understand the notion of emotionless sex. For me, it is the ultimate exposure of vulnerability and connection between two people. I would never had sex just to get off, so, it was beyond my comprehension.

My WH's capacity to get NSA sex I believe is based on a level of selfishness I will never know (and I am grateful for that), immaturity, a sense of entitlement and an incredible capacity to compartmentalize (a skill honed by his job as a first responder). All his APs knew it was NSA, they used each other. He never said I love you and I am grateful for the lack of the emotional piece. To be honest, with the magnitude of his LTAs if they had been emotional based, I am not sure I could R...it fascinates me how we all draw our lines in the sand for what behaviour we will tolerate and work through and what is a "deal breaker". When I started a thread (my only one I started), many opinions were to leave my WH, a serial cheater is a serial cheater period. If I were reading my story, our stories on this thread, before it becoming "my" story, my perceived line in the sand would have been different as well. No one can judge.

At the end of the day, I don't want the core of who I am to be changed by his selfishness. I want to still be authentic to myself. So I think I trust again, but I know I will never love him the same again...and that's why I remain on the fence, to see if what grows from this has enough love to make it worth it. I also know that if he lies again or steps over the boundaries I have created, that I am out of the relationship.

I lost a 23 year friendship last night over his infidelity when my friend betrayed my trust and told someone my story when I had confided in her early on and asked her to keep it to herself. I asked her to own that she betrayed me and she would not. She rationalized she was doing it to "protect" me, when really, she did it as a self serving maneuver because she knows the AP and wanted to cast her in a poor light. That's not protecting me. The irony is, the person to whom she disclosed it said they were surprised, but that people make mistakes and it was a long time ago and their opinion of the AP didn't result in the outcome my friend was looking for. That's the difference in who I am now after this. I am not really sad at this loss. I have no room or energy for people who can't or won't own their shit.

"When you say no to people who don't show up for you, you not only honour your value, you raise it" - Mark Groves.

[This message edited by hopeandhealing at 10:34 AM, June 20th (Wednesday)]

LifeisCrazy posted 6/20/2018 12:14 PM

Nobody seems like they are truly happy. I don't get the sense anyone has achieved R, rebuilt this amazing new marriage and are happier than before dday or even truly happy period, which I occsionally read in the reconciliation forum. Maybe success stories aren't posting in this thread anymore or maybe the LTA steals that possibility from us? I hope not.

Well, if it helps, I am one of them. I sometimes feel like a lone voice and often wonder if I'm posting enough, too much, in the wrong forum, etc. But I think that it's important that people see that reconciliation CAN happen - even in my unusual situation of being a guy, having a wife who had a 3 year affair, got pregnant by the OM (terminated), and took my daughter on vacation with the OM and his family (yup). So... my sitch is pretty ugly - and, yet, here I am.

The bad: You never get "over" an affair, especially a LTA. Someone posted here many years ago that affairs are like something you pass in your car. You will always see them in the rear view mirror but they get smaller and smaller as you get further along down the road. 6+ years out and, yes, I do still think about it. Sometimes daily. Almost always in fleeting moments. It never consumes me. I don't get upset about any aspect of the affair. I no longer wish to beat the shit out of the OM or contact his almost-18 year old children. But it's still "there." I assume, at this point, that it always will be.

The good: My wife is a new person. In almost every way she has stepped up. However, and this is important to hear, at first she didn't know "how." I say this a lot - a WS doesn't get into an affair and, during that time, start doing counseling and reading books about how to recover once the affair is discovered. We want our WS to spin around on a dime and do all the hard work - but that isn't realistic. It takes a long time for a WS to understand the true consequences of his/her actions... and to begin acting in a way that is TRULY remorseful. At this point my wife has changed so much from her former self - in particular, from during her affair - that one cannot help to recognize why I'm still in the marriage.

The lesson: I have learned so many valuable things about myself and about relationships over these past 6 years. First off, I've come to realize that a BS and a WS have to make a decision to stay. That's paramount. It can't just because it's easier or the financial stuff is better without divorcing - it needs to be a mutual decision to commit to the marriage. Then, in my humble opinion, it is the BS who has to work through the affair and recognize that it actually IS over - and it's time to work. Once THAT occurs then the marriage can progress to a wonderful new place.

Unfortunately, so many people do not TRULY reconcile... they just "reconcile." What do I mean by that? It's easy to stay together. Just decide that the affair is over and move forward. The only problem is that you return to the same shitty dynamics that were present BEFORE the affair. Why do this? Why put yourself in the same boat... only this time with the knowledge of their having been an AP???

So don't! Think about what it is that you NEED to be happy - to have a really rocking marriage. More communication? More compassion? More sex? More fun? Then... COMMUNICATE this to your spouse. And I don't mean that you make a small comment before a tv show. Tell your spouse to sit down at the kitchen table and make sure that he understands the gravity of the conversation. Then... tell him. Directly and forcefully. "Honey, I love you... but if you don't start telling me when you're going to be late to work, the marriage is over." Or whatever. Make sure that your spouse KNOWS.

Then... follow through. Don't stay in a marriage with shitty dynamics if your spouse is unable to be the type of partner you need! Period.

Look, after my wife's affair, I needed her to be more sexual. I simply couldn't handle the mind movies and the sadness that came with her having given that to him. So I finally laid down the law... this is how you're going to be - or the marriage is over. She didn't HAVE to, of course. But you want to know what she discovered? That when I was getting this from her... I was a million times happier. The pain subsided. I stopped treating her poorly. And that made HER happier. Which made her want to reinforce this again.

Long term affairs are really tough to get over. But, as I often say, if you're going to go for it - then go for it! Lay down what you need - make it perfectly clear. Crystal clear. Be ready to leave the marriage if need be. But you and your spouse need to make the marriage the priority... or not bother. So do it.

I am a million times happier than I was pre-Affair. My marriage is a million times better. I hate the affair - don't get me wrong. But I do recognize that it was a wake up call for my wife to start working harder (and, in fairness, for me to be a better husband).

It can be done. Each of you can have it - but only if you BOTH are ready to fight for it. Is your spouse ready? Are you?

gmc94 posted 6/20/2018 16:11 PM

Thank you LifeIsCrazy. I needed to hear that it's possible.

It takes a long time for a WS to understand the true consequences of his/her actions... and to begin acting in a way that is TRULY remorseful.

Not sure I'll have the patience for this - for my WH to figure out "how" to do the things I've clearly said I need (so far, even with IC/MC, a lot of "trying" but not really following through... and as my needs change, his inability to get the "how" to respond becomes increasingly exacerbated... and all of this seems to put acting TRULY remorseful further out of reach).

Recovery alone is killing me, and I'm petrified that when I'm in a place to decide about committing to R, the post-A behaviors will not be enough to stay. I guess the good news is I don't have to make that decision now... the bad news is that I can't seem to keep from thinking/being anxious about it.

Curious how you were able to "keep the faith" so to speak during that "long time" for your WS to understand the true consequences and begin acting truly remorseful?

But I'm grateful to read your story. Truly grateful to hear of the possibility with a LTA.

amanda123 posted 6/20/2018 16:47 PM

LifeisCrazy Thank you for your great post. It is nice to hear someone truly is happy after a LTA. I know there are quite a few couples that have had successful R. We live in hope.

3 years out from DD2 I am still very angry, I feel as though I have been robbed. The emotion side of it runs much deeper there is still so much pain, the things he said the things he did. Amongst all of that is the big TRUST issue we all speak of so often. I dont know how to get passed it all. I have developed OCD since discovering the LTA and am now dealing with that as well. How do we forget who that person was during the LTA how do we forget that? During the LTA the man I married was like a total stranger, he may have been laying in the bed next to me, but I swear I did not know him, his personality changed so much, to me it is not comprehendable. So the LTA is over now and what ok he is back to the way he was before the LTA, all those years of trying to work out why he said things, why he did certain things, now knowing he lied right to my face, he deceived me, he cheated on me, he betrayed me, he told OW he loved her and wanted her to be his wife, I cant wrap my head around all of that. I dont know that it is possible. I wish I had amnesia.

We all want to be happy. None of us asked for this crap.


MalibuBayBreeze posted 6/20/2018 18:30 PM

WhyAgainWhyHer

If you want to quote, copy the section and paste it in your reply. Highlight it, hit select and then the quote tab next to the reply box.

Amanda123

I was talking to someone today and he told me I have to let go of the anger. That it will destroy me. The thing is the anger towards my WH hasn't manifested yet despite being over 2 years out. What I feel is the hurt. The hurt that he could disregard me so easily, lie to my face probably thousands of times, had no problem stabbing me in the back, and that he has obliterated my belief in love and marriage.

I have never done anything to hurt him, and I sure as shit don't believe I could have carried on a LTA and been able to look him in the face and treat him the way he did me.

My anger, and I know it's misplaced, is still on the bitch. There is a fury within me towards her that is like a churning tornado. If she has any sense, and that's doubtful, she'll stay the fuck out of my life or else she'll learn first hand what hell hath no fury really looks like.

During the LTA the man I married was like a total stranger

Not only that, mine was a total prick. How do you forget that? The way they acted, the things they did, the things they said. I'm not at that point. Don't know if I'll ever be but my acting is so good I really do deserve an award.

I think we all do.

Just for surviving hell.

deephurt posted 6/21/2018 07:51 AM

Lifeiscrazy-Iím really happy for you. For me, I would change my name to lifeispainful-cause thatís how I feel.

Maybe at 6 years out, I will feel like you do. I really hope so.

My wh has made many changes. I believe that he believes that he would never hurt me again. I would love to feel confident if that myself but itís hard because he never has any plans to hurt me when we married and yet he did.

I know he was not in a good place. I know him being in wrong meds for aplrox15 years contributed. I know he is in proper meds now and I can see the difference in him.

He says he doesnít understand why he It. He feels completely different now. He wants us to be happy. He lives to make me happier. He helps out more. We have sex more. We are together all the time now. We work together now and Iím. It so sure itís a good idea. There is now work friction between us aimetumes and if it doesnít get better, Iím not sure this will be a good idea but time will tell. Iím worried that working together will/is changing both our opinions of each other. It certainly helps with me worrying about where he is though.

Did the most part, I am much happier than I ever was even before a. I donít trust the changes. I donít trust that he isnít happy he had those years with someone else as well as me. I donít trust that his selfishness wonít return. I donít trust that if the opportunity cane up again that he would say no. I donít trust that he is grateful that I stayed.

I feel like there are two things happening. The happier me in a terrific m and the other me that is sad, angry, still hurting.

Things happen during the day sometimes. We discuss my anxiety right now and he will say he understands and try to help me with it but all I think about is that he had someone else Jen eas talking to and having sex with to alleviate his anxiety. He told me that when the thoughts in his head got too much for him, he would call her and her babbling would distract him. He could just listen about what she was saying and it would help a little. So I say something about that and I get the eye roll and he will say something like-not this again.

I tell him itís not okay to dismiss what Iím feeling and saying but he avoids it like the plague. He gets nervous and finds any reason to get away from me or change the subject. I understand that it makes him feel awful. I get that he gets nervous about both me getting angrier and I k ow he just doesnít like being reminded about how much of a horrid person her was. Itís hard to look at how horrible you were to someone. I get that BUT to me itís selfish. I still see the selfishness where protecting his feelings over mine or anyone else is still the most important thing to him and it makes me nervous about the future.

At this point, I do t know how to put it in the past. So much if my day to day can trigger. So many triggers. So many times he will say something that has me needing to bite my tongue so as not to have to bring it up again.

There have been a few things I have had to say and his response is that I am bringing it up so much lately. Why not listen to me and understand what his choices have done to my thought process. Why not understand how I have anxiety now and itís all because of how he destroyed my world. Why not allow yourself to be open in a situation that is really uncomfortable for him so that he can really discuss what my issues are?

Itís because he is still selfish at his core and while the day to day appears that he has changed and isnít selfish anymore, when push comes to shove, he will protect himself first and if I get hurt in the process, itís the price I have to pay because he isnít capable of putting anyone before himself when it comes to the really tough stuff. Therefore, it leaves me feeling like it could very easily come full circle again. Like the work is just on the surface and down deep, that guy will surface again.

That probably means that I need more therapy. I have felt for quite some time that I am in a very successful r and that I am having trouble putting it in my last and itís all my issue but itís not just my issue. Maybe itís all because he canít tell me a real reason he did it.

He recently said that he was mentally ill during that time. No he wasnít. Yes, the wrong drugs helped because they made the anxiety much worse but he was not mentally ill and blaming anything in mental illness isnít a good reason for me. He did it because it was offered and because he could. He didnít believe I would ever find out because he is so much smarter than me. He just wanted to.

hopeandhealing posted 6/21/2018 17:01 PM

Thanks for sharing life is crazy. It is nice to read a R story on the LTA thread, it gives those of us living this nightmare hope of what might be possible.

I agree that both parties need to make the commitment. Admittedly, I wax and wane on my effort level/commitment to R based on how hurt I am, how much rage I feel. I am still shocked that he could cause me this much pain and live in a world believing he would never be caught.

Sometimes I can put it in a box and say, that is the past, it is not my future, I choose to live in the now, but other times, when I dive headfirst into the rabbit hole, I always end up feeling awful with no hope and no desire to even try.

Thanks again for sharing. I am glad you have a better M now than before, demanded better for yourself and she stepped up.

Thanksgiving2016 posted 6/21/2018 22:10 PM

DeepHurt I feel the same way. I worry it is all improvement on the surface. He doesn't like to talk about the details, and I get it but I bet he didn't have a hard time giving her the intimate details of our life together. Sometimes i think would it be so bad to just try to forget it and move forward-like i could-but I wonder if I read about it less and quit looking at the skank's facebook-which i started because she started a fake facebook in my name-maybe the pain would diminish, sometimes I'm so tired and exhausted and on the surface he is being so sweet I just want to sweep it under the rug. It is fear that stops me.

[This message edited by Thanksgiving2016 at 10:12 PM, June 21st (Thursday)]

amanda123 posted 6/24/2018 05:23 AM

Feeling pretty shitty today. H and I were going out to the Mall. H apart from complaining about things doesnt talk about feelings or anything else. I told him I have been reading about depression and I think I have it. His reply, stop reading. I also told him that I feel sad, I very rarely feel happy and he said I heard you laugh yesterday. I told him Im worried about us and our relationship. He squeezed my leg as a gesture that he heard but he said nothing!! Just makes me want to cry.

steadychevy posted 6/24/2018 08:29 AM

Well, that was very supportive wasn't it, Amanda. NOT. Doesn't seem much like empathy to me. More like defensiveness. I'm sorry he can't seem to understand that to be supportive it might look like "I know I've done this to you and us. I'm so sorry. I will try the rest of my life to make it up to you".

I told my WW more than once in the 4 years after the first DDay that she needs to show me that the only rational decision I can make is to R. She didn't/couldn't/wouldn't, whatever.

I'm sorry the pain and sadness continues, Amanda. You've been heard.

WhyAgainWhyHer posted 6/24/2018 15:16 PM

Its been a crappy weekend all around. He won;t explain the facebook post and is now ignoring me because he has to "work". That's code for "I'm going to shut myself off from you and do what I want. I;m sure she's had time with him this weekend.

amanda123 posted 6/25/2018 04:13 AM

Thank you Steady, sometimes I think Im going to go crazy. How can I not be angry with him.

WhyAgainWhyHer, oh my blood would be boiling.

hopeandhealing posted 6/25/2018 09:35 AM

Amanda,

I agree with Steady - I think the shit of LTAs needs extra attention from our WS to help us heal. I would be irate if those were my BH's responses! Stop reading? I heard you laugh? Wow, I am sorry. Those are not validating or empathetic replies to you being vulnerable and communicating how YOU are feeling because of his selfish actions. He needs to own those and support you through them, hear you and respond accordingly.

Why again,

I hope you are able to find your voice and demand better. You seem to be waiting for the shoe to drop and are not exerting your power in the situation. You have a voice in how you are treated, what you tolerate, what boundaries you set. It seems as though you suspect the A is ongoing, but your suspicions are not yet confirmed, perhaps out of fear? A desire for things to stay the same? Is your current day to day and the associated feelings you experience good enough for you?

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