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N P D Thread - Part 14

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jjct posted 12/12/2014 18:20 PM

Here's the 90
http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=533065
hope it helps

futurehoper posted 12/13/2014 15:05 PM

Thank you for the 90 JJ. I am going to try it. What I am dealing with now, from WH, is just a difficulty coparenting. If I bring up an issue with the kids, He avoids that issue, but rants about finances/insurance, his AP's husband and me 'collaborating' and says many times 'leave me alone' and 'you keep pushing me'. I don't get it; it's like a total disconnect.

Wiserallthetime posted 12/13/2014 16:24 PM

It is difficult, and aggravating, but he is baiting you to be his supply. He will take it, even if he can only get negative supply (your anger); it still "feeds" him. Mine does the same type thing, only at least mine usually will include the information I need from him, even if he does not follow up with the action also required.
My advice is ignore everything that does not address the issue at hand. If that means every single thing in the email can be eliminated, then simply re-state your initial question, perhaps trying re-wording it a bit; repeat until he finally answers. Also, don't be afraid to put down a deadline boundary, such as, "I need to know your answer by X date and time, or else I will have to decide on my own in order to be sure our child receives the care/item he/she needs." Then, don't be afraid to do so; if you have joint custody legally, whether formal or informal, you are obligated to try to work together, but you cannot work together with someone who refuses to give you an answer, so you only need to show proof you tried. A record of the written communication will show you did. (I am not a lawyer in any way, so be sure this is legal in your state before relying upon it.)

phmh posted 12/13/2014 19:25 PM

Then he started calling the gym phone over and over, I have him blocked on cell. Then the emails started, asking me to call him. I finally responded and simply said "I can".... His response was "'okay then, I tried"

First, (((Josey))) Huge, huge hugs. This is so tough, and I'm trying to find the right words so that this comes across with the caring that I have, but I know text can be tough.

Prior to D-Day, I had done significant work in animal behavior. I volunteer at a rescue, helping people to keep difficult parrots in their homes, and to help modify behavior. Obviously, I couldn't modify the parrots' behavior, but I could help their owners to modify their own behavior, which modified the parrots' reactions.

What you did up there (my quote) made things much worse, because now you've taught him that if he contacts you 20 times, you'll respond. That means next time, he's going to try 30, or 40, or 50. He may even escalate, because it worked last time! You can google "extinction burst" if you want to read about it.

What you need to do is maintain strict NC in the ways that you don't want him to contact you, NO MATTER WHAT. If you do need to maintain some contact for some reason (kids and finances? I'm not up to speed on your situation), figure out a way that he can contact you, like e-mail or through your lawyer. Communicate the acceptable method to him ONCE in writing, and then ignore all other contact attempts.

He's probably not as smart as the parrots I worked with, so it may take a little longer, but if you maintain NC and only respond when he contacts you using the acceptable method on a subject you want to respond to him about, he'll finally get it. Usually took the parrots a few weeks if the owner followed exactly what they were supposed to do, so maybe a few months for him? But every single slip-up sets you way back.

Hang in there. I really recommend anyone interested in trying to figure out ways to behave to modify others' behavior (animals, or PD-people) to read "Don't Shoot the Dog."

cantaccept posted 12/14/2014 07:32 AM

I have done all I can to eliminate contact. Blocked phone, blocked email.

Everything I can think of.

I get a book in the mail yesterday. "all about love".

I didn't order it. I hoped that I did and forgot, . I even checked through my bank statement to make sure. Of course I didn't.

It creeped me out. I was out last night and everytime a pick up was behind me I got anxious. Walking to the house, I was looking over my shoulder. I am safe at home, I have my son, an alarm, 3 dogs.

I unblocked his email last night. It felt kind of scary knowing he is thinking something??? and I don't know what.

So, sure enough about midnight I see an email from him, just another one liner. Along with emails from the last several weeks, they all came through. All just the one liners about how much he is hurting and the one that is sticking, "we are not done".

Okay, so I blocked it again. It did me no good, I still cannot know what he is capable of. I can never know what is really in his head.

All it did was ramp up my anxiety. So, blocked it again. NOw I guess all I can do is be very careful.

I really thought that he would move on more quickly. I really thought that he would have found someone already and forgotten about me. I guess it isn't so easy for him now.

No real home, no real job, not a whole lot to offer for a man in his 50's. Those kinds of things would be red flags to me now. Of course, he could always just lie. He could give a sob story of why he is in this position, milk it for sympathy from a stranger.

Just shaking my head in total WTFness. He really is "one of those".

I have no desire to respond. That is such a relief! I get that I will never have a real conversation with him. Now I really understand word salad. The further out I am, I see the circular conversations, the manipulation. It is a sad relief.

I hope that this is the extent of it and nothing more. Then I remember that I thought I knew him before, that he would never hit me, he would never cheat on me, he had so much pain in his life. All I thought was true was only pretend. Now that makes me a little nervous because now, how do I know, "he would never". I cannot, all I can do is be aware.

jjct posted 12/14/2014 08:20 AM

(((CAN)))
(((TRIBE)))

He's probably not as smart as the parrots I worked with, so it may take a little longer

cayc posted 12/14/2014 08:24 AM

Hmmm phmh, no Kindle version. You've talked me into buying my first hardback book in years!

I find stuff like this super helpful in terms of learning how to not take things so personally, how to have stronger boundaries. I find that I can't ever relax totally from making that a focus of my own personal growth. A lot of negative things about myself I just shrug and say, I refuse to kill myself in search of perfection, sort of embracing my flaws as it were.

But when it comes to not internalizing the shit of others, and being firm about who I am and where the line in the sand is ... you can't ever slack off there. Life is a constantly daily assault against yourself, it isn't just NPD exes that are trying to worm their way in.

phmh posted 12/14/2014 08:51 AM

I hear you, cayc. The most helpful thing I found when dealing with challenging people was never to JADE:

To JADE is to Justify, Argue (and/or Apologize), Defend, and Explain. You never, ever, EVER want to JADE. JADEing is self-defeating behavior, because it allows the toxic individuals in your life an "in" to beating you into submission. To JADE is to hand over your power to someone else.

By "justifying" your decisions, you hand over your power by giving the other party the right to judge you. Nobody has the right to judge you for your needs.

By "arguing" with the other party, you hand over your power by making their desire to argue with you legitimate. Your needs aren't going to change no matter how much someone argues with you about them.

By "apologizing" to the other party, you hand over your power by admitting you're doing something wrong. You have every right to protect yourself and make sure your own needs are met.

By "defending" your position, you hand over your power by making the other party an authority figure. You're an adult, and fully capable of deciding what you do with your life. Nobody else has a right to tell you how to live.

By "explaining" the reasons for your boundaries, you hand over your power by giving the other party a chance to nullify your own experience. Your experience is your own. It is precious. Nobody else can know whether it's true or not.

I know it can be really really hard to learn new responses to situations, especially situations people have spent years grooming you to react to in specific ways. Fortunately, the script for avoiding a JADE moment is both brief and adaptable. It's something Nancy Regan taught us decades ago: JUST SAY NO!

"No, that won't work for me."
"No, I can't do that."
"No, thank you."

"No" is a complete sentence.

And when the "but whyyyyyyyyy?"s start, break all the grammatical rules with another one-word answer: "Because."

"Because that won't work for me."
"Because I can't do that."
"Because I said no."

The third and final step is the really brilliant one. Change the subject.

"No, I told you I won't be doing that. So how's the weather been where you are? Are the azaleas blooming yet?"

Now, there is a difference between JADEing to toxic people who don't have your best interests at heart, and exploring your own reasoning and reactions with people who are trying to help. You have to learn where that line is for yourself, from situation to situation. It takes practice--and that's okay. If you keep at it, it will become second nature, and you'll find your life is a great deal simpler.

It's something that I still work at, though it has started to become closer to second nature since I've been working on it since I first heard about it in 2009.


Of course, I've cut as many toxic people out of my life as I could, but you still have to occasionally deal with some at work or other unavoidable situations. It's so tough, because I do have the tendency to take things personally and internalize the mean things people say. Another thing I'm working on is to not care what others think about me.

Compartmented posted 12/14/2014 21:50 PM

I must confess, Tribe, I've been avoiding this forum. I'm now caught up reading. I know this is where I belong so I can learn to deal with the aftereffects of being married to FT. I want so much to just BE DONE. I wish he'd leave me alone. I wish he'd leave my children alone. He lives for manipulation, so that is what he will do. I have to accept what I can't change, change what I can and learn the difference. (sorry for the serenity prayer butchering there)

This:

His methods are covert, so it doesn't always seem like he's involved. It has come out on many things, his hand was working his retribution magic behind the scenes.
This is much of the problem right now.

Thanks for the JADE quote. I am going to print it out for my son. He's heading in to the Bowels Of Chaos for awhile.

Sorry to see so many new people here. Why can't the NPD's / Socio's just move on?? They weren't happy with us, so get lost already.

sadone29 posted 12/14/2014 22:15 PM

Hey tribe, it's been a while!

Having a tough day. I wish with all my heart that I could get away from him and go no contact. But no, I'm stuck here with him for now. I usually try not to think about him so I can make it through the day with my sanity intact.

I went to his church today. It's one of those evangelical ones where everyone's singing and raising their hands in praise. I went because my kids were going to sing a song with the kids group there.

It was creepy. Formerly atheist H was clapping his hands like a madman. It's a good thing it was dark, because I started crying. A few around me were crying from their worshiping. I was crying because of everything I'm losing. I don't know if he's truly lost his mind or if this is his clever way of using the kids against me. I wouldn't put anything past him.

I can't even fight him on it. The kids like going because they get free toys. I've been told that a court battle over this would be ugly and I don't have that good of a chance (plus I have no money). I'm also afraid that making them stop will push them away.

I stand a real chance of becoming an outsider in my own family. I don't even know where to begin to deal with that.

Compartmented posted 12/15/2014 05:44 AM

I stand a real chance of becoming an outsider in my own family. I don't even know where to begin to deal with that.
I was warned that this might happen with my children, so I wasn't surprised when alienation was attempted. It still hurt like hell. What I did was practice radical acceptance. (Acceptance of the parts you can't change.) Then keep living and speaking your truth, as calmly as you can. I was told my children would eventually come around, and they have.

Kajem posted 12/15/2014 07:56 AM

((((((sadone))))))

My xh was married to me, he was dragged to church by myself. (ask him) he was raised catholic, me too. We raised our kids catholic. Since he left, he's been Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian and some other smaller independent churches.

My kids have remained catholic and been involved in several youth groups in different denominations. I didn't fight their involvement, because my faith is important to me. I want my kids to have a relationship with God. If that's thru a different religion, I'm ok with that.

My xh going to church, is laughable. If hr changes and actually believes inn someone higher than himself. That would be a good thing. I have heard of oeople finding Jesus, I know it happens. I can't imagine my xh being one.

If your kids enjoy going there, and are developing a relationship with God and others who care about them. Try to look at it through your kids eyes, cropping your xh out of the frame. And enjoy your kids interest.

Its hard to put your love for your kids ahead of your anger at xh, especially when you're fighting for your sanity ATM. Keep your chin up... Your kids love you.

Hugs,
K

sadone29 posted 12/15/2014 14:00 PM

Thank you both! I've also been trying to practice radical acceptance. Some days are definitely easier than others. I think I'm doing pretty damn good, too. I have no choice when we're doing in house S and I refuse to have the kids live in tense household.

We saw our mediators today and they recognized that I do need an outlet. They are going to be setting me up with counselling I can afford. Most of the time, I can bury feelings and pretend, but sometimes the anger bubbles up.

The religion thing has been really difficult for me. We agreed to not bring religion in their lives, other than to teach them about it in an academic way if they asked. We were on the same page for so long and didn't expect infidelity to change this part of our lives. It's interesting how him changing has also made me look at myself.

I kept my beliefs to myself most of the time. I would say that I believed in god when asked. But that wasn't exactly accurate. I've really examined my beliefs, which I categorized as natural pantheism. So basically, Atheism. I slowly lost faith in any supreme being over the years, but didn't really care to do much reflection about it. But I feel like I've regained the person I used to be. The girl who had dreams of going into astrophysics and loved all things science. Instead I followed the advice of a high school counselor to pursue the things that came easier to me instead of trying to improve my science grades.

Anyway, it explains why I got along better with Atheist NPD (even though his type was the really annoying angry type) than the born again NPD.

I did well at the church. No one saw my tears. I loved seeing the kids on the stage and I was excited with them after. Even if I do think they are being indoctrinated and it drives me crazy, their happiness will always come first.

I know most of this isn't about NPD H; just have a lot on my mind lately.

Josey01 posted 12/15/2014 18:23 PM

So it's escalated again. Family Xmas yesterday on his side. I if course did not go this year. Was a tough day on me for my kids and my huge extended family to be celebrating without me, but I out my strong face on and occupied my time. After party he started grilling my boys about where I was and who I was with. All day!!! Then he came to my apartment with sad notes and well wishes for me and my new " boyfriend" , who doesn't exist. Brought our wedding pictures as well, left it outside door after knocking for ever and throwing crap at my window. 10 emails throughout. Ive remained nc. Today his email says " sorry wring kind if whiskey yesterday" . Which is just unsult to injury!!! This is the hardest thing I've ever done!!!! Where's the 24 year old girlfriend???????? Wtf!!!

phmh posted 12/15/2014 21:24 PM

(((Josey)))

Are your kids in counseling so that they can learn techniques to deal with his behavior?

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I'm proud of you for staying NC. I would have had a hard time not correcting his illiterate text. Chin up -- you're doing great!

Kajem posted 12/15/2014 22:49 PM

Sad one,

It is about him, just indirectly. Hijack away. It's why we have this room.

I never thought that my kids could be being indoctrinated by him into another religion. I thought he was indoctrinating them into other things..he was. It all had to do with ego kibbles. My kids started on his choice of path, and as they continue are one by one changing the direction of that path.

There is hope, my xh did all he could to alienate them from me. I have 4 daughters, all over 18. 1 has no relationship with him, 1 barely has a relationship, 1 is a bit more involved, 1 is very involved with him (youngest).

I found at around junior/senior year of high school they found him out.

Hugs,
K

Kajem posted 12/15/2014 22:52 PM

Josey,

I'd be hard pressed not to call the police. You did really well.

Hugs,
K

sadone29 posted 12/16/2014 08:52 AM

Thanks Kajem. Reading your posts definitely helps me to see that there is life on the other side of this mess.

As parents, all we can do sometimes is love them through all of their stages in life.

On another note, my resolve over the holidays has weakened, and was made worse by our good mediation session. He has picked up on that and is trying to love bomb me. He wants me to spend x-mas at his family's. We talked about it last night. I had my first sleepless night in months. It goes to show how S really is helping me heal. It's difficult to see sometimes.

mom23boys posted 12/16/2014 23:58 PM

Hi Tribe! I find myself lurking here a lot and I have had so much on my mind. Since we are apparently all in the club of "Trying to function normally in life with an abnormal person", I'd like to ask some questions that have been stewing and some recent revelations as well.

I now definitely suspect that my STBX has major NPD as well as PAD. I didn't even know what NPD was until this all happened, but he matches more than 5 of the signs of the disorder and on the extreme end. I'm going to list some of the things he would do, would you all mind letting me know what you think??

In the beginning of our relationship, he was always awkward in social situations, people were constantly says how he comes off cocky. I just thought he was confident in himself.

He always made me feel inferior. I was never a priority to him and neither were our kids. He would always say" I do everything for this family."

He critiqued and criticized me from my cooking, to how many times he thought I should shower in one day

He would just blatantly ignore me for no reason. Like pretend I wasn't even there when I would sit next to him and ask him a regular question like " Did you get that car part you were needing?" He frequently did it to our kids as well.

He could never sincerely apologize. It would be "yeah, that wasn't good what I did, but if you hadn't done X, I wouldn't have done that."

Anytime I did not whole heartily agree with him, he would start an argument, then when I would defend myself, he would leave, for like hours. Then I felt like it was my fault and I would mend it to just get I over with and move on.

He was verbally abusive

He was never supportive, but would call me selfish if I did anything that didn't let him do what he wanted.

He made all the important decisions and I had absolutely no say.

Now he is acting sadistic with the way he is flaunting his A and damaging his kids with his crazy behaviors, with no regard to them.

So I think he may be a sociopathic narc with PAD. What do you all think??

Kajem posted 12/17/2014 06:54 AM

Sadone,

NC is the only way I know to see and get what you're dealing with. Dealing with a narc is like being a bug trapped in a spider web. The more you struggle, the more attention the spider gives you (and eats you!). If you're quiet, don't shake the web too much trying to escape. You get to plan your exit path out of the web. Once you get away, there are still pieces of the web stuck to you. Some silk may be tied directly to the spider.

Keep cutting the ties that bind. Emotionally and physically.... One by one.

Oh and also keep avoiding new webs by the same spider.
Hugs,
K

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