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User Topic: Drastic times call for drastic measures
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)

Well, over 6 years out and things are still pretty bad. My BS and I are at the verge of divorce.
She's said she still hasn't seen any remorse from me. Our MC agrees with my wife,
I'm clueless, inconsiderate, but he does think I have the desire to change and thinks I'm truly sorry for the pain and suffering I've caused. The hard part is to show my BS that

Today, my wife gave me an ultimatum, a challenge or an opportunity depending on how you look at it.

1. You put your job on hold (no income) and fix yourself.
2. You post each day on SI as a log.

The minimum time for you to fix yourself is 100 days.

It's harsh, but I agreed. This is my first post, we'll see how it goes.

Comments, please...

And to all a good night.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)

(((Wario))) It sounds like you're in a tough spot. I'm sorry you're still struggling.

What does remorse look and feel like to you? Are you and your wife speaking the same "language" about what it is?


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8857 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)

Hey wario. Without knowing your entire back story, I'm curious about a few things. For now I'll start with something basic...

Are you in IC? Do you feel like you're working on things, but because your BW and MC disagree you're trying MORE?

My FWH could have written your post right about now... but I think he's honestly clueless as to how his behavior affects people - always has been. His IC thinks he registers on the Asperger's spectrum but he hasn't been officially diagnosed. If you are truly clueless as to what your BW is going through - is it possible that there is a chemical/psychological disconnect? I ask because your post sounds very aspie.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17862 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
JustWow
Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)

Empathy.

Study it. Own it. Invest in it.

After 6 years, if you think a 100 day allowance is harsh, when your wife and MC say you are not remorseful, then something in you is failing to empathize, I am guessing. Don't defend, Don't inimize. Don't justify. Don't re-write. Own it. Be sorry, or don't be sorry, but be honest. Don't manipulate.

If your BS does not think you are remorseful, she WILL NOT be able to trust you again. If you are not remorseful, quit trying to pretend you are. If you ARE - kiss your pride goodbye, Get humble, walk for 6 years or so in her shoes, Find your empathy.

The damage my H did after d-day by trying to preserve his self image instead of owning his bad decisions did FFFAAAARRRR more damage than the A. Like the A wasn't bad enough, but compounding the pain with empty promises, half efforts and baloney to keep him comfortable while our marraige and I suffered...worse than the A, in my book.

You have a gift. A freaking generous gift of 100 days, sir. Generous beyond my capacity, for sure. Seize the opportunity. Or get out today. Quit the half-in torture. All-in or all out.

Good luck, choose honestly.

[This message edited by JustWow at 8:42 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)]


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3631 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, December 24th (Tuesday)

Has your BS been willing to "specifically" share what she needs from at any point during these past 6 years? Or are you clairvoyant, expected to read her mind?

Over these past 6 years you've really done nothing? If this is true, your wife is 5 and 3/4 years late on this ultimatum.

And this idea that you will just 'fix yourself" in 100 days is ridiculous. It's like telling an alcoholic; "go to your room and don't come out until you're fixed". It is an irrational request.
There must be a plan with specifics addressed; like boundaries, precautions, specific behavioral changes, speaking pattern changes, needs being met, etc. There must be specific ways to measure these changes on a scale that can show improvement or backsliding for accountability. I know I'm being very general, but have you sat down and considered any of these with your wife?


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Scorpio2310
Member
Member # 41561
Default  Posted: 12:23 AM, December 25th (Wednesday)

Wario

Don't defend, Don't inimize. Don't justify. Don't re-write. Own it. Be sorry, or don't be sorry, but be honest. Don't manipulate.

This is gold. I couldn't agree more. I'm two weeks out from D-day and I answer my BSO's every question. If I can't answer right away I tell her that I need some time to think about it. I struggle with the getting defensive still but I'm catching myself more and more each time it happens. When I do catch myself I apologize and ask to take a break, when I don't my BSO calls me on it.

There must be a plan with specifics addressed; like boundaries, precautions, specific behavioral changes, speaking pattern changes, needs being met, etc.

I am also working on building boundaries. It is hard but I am constantly working on it. I text my BSO any time I have contact with a female and it goes close to my boundaries.

My BSO also has me at least read SI once a day. I post whenever I have a question and/or when I have some support or advice to give.

After 6 years it sounds like your W is being very generous. If you are very sorry and have the desire to change then take the plunge. You are starting on the right path by posting here and looking for help. Don't give up.


Posts: 61 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Indiana
Tesseract
Member
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 12:49 AM, December 25th (Wednesday)

I think I'm in a somewhat similar situation. While I'm not six years out from DDay, there have been issues in my behavior that come from the same place that have hurt my wife and damaged my marriage for our entire relationship. I believe my wife would very strongly agree with JustWow.

I struggle with empathy and being defensive, not just over things to do with the A, but over feelings in general. I just started IC, and setting up those specific goals that Card mentioned is something I want to work on with the counselor in great detail and then share with my wife.

What I will tell you is that I'm not sure about this 100 days thing. It seems like a good first step, but comes across as fairly, gimmicky rather than sincere. But as my wife says, you get out of it what you put into it. So I wish you luck.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:21 AM, December 25th (Wednesday)

I agree with Card here. Has she told you what she needs? Has your IC told you how you are lacking or did she/he just say you're lacking? I also agree the time limit is ridiculous. Perhaps its her last straw or her line in yhe sand but I've had a year and a half and I'm not "fixed" and thats with IC, psych ward vists, introspection and over 2000 posts here on SI. IMHO there is no such thing as fixed. We are constantly changing and I hope improving but no one is ever fixed. So what is she looking for in you? Remorse takes many forms and R is different for each couple.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2762 | Registered: Oct 2012
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, December 25th (Wednesday)

I also have a question about the time limit. Who decides if you're "fixed"? Her? Your MC/IC? You? The cynic in me says she's setting you up to fail. Admittedly that may be unfair on my part. Depending on how entrenched your issues are, it could take *much* longer - years, in fact - to fix yourself. It's been five years post Dday for me and, while I'm much better, I'm not completely fixed. I know I still have work to do.

I agree that if she hasn't *told* you what she needs then you can't be expected to know. And it's unfair of her to just assume that you would. If we could read minds, a lot of this pain and heartbreak would have been avoided.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5892 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

Well, let me, as a BW, give another perspective.

It''s been 6 years already. 6 very long, long years. That''s more than enough time to have worked on and "gotten" remorse, consideration, and an appreciation of how to help heal yourself and to have become empathetic towards your BW. That''s 6 years of her life that she will never get back. That''s 6 years of healing that didn''t happen.

So, how much longer is "enough?"

I would turn this around. You are being given a gift of 100 days. A last-attempt gift to try to save your marriage. She didn''t have to give this to you. She could have filed, divorced, and tried to put the last 6+ years in her rearview mirror. But she didn''t.

This is, in my opinion, a really great gift. A statement that there is something there, on her end, and that if you can step up to the plate and show her, and an impartial observer, your MC, that you can grow, then you may have the chance to save your marriage. Of course, if that''s not your wish or if you feel that being granted a mere 100 days is in some way an insult, then you can call an end to this right now and let her know that it''s time to give up hope.

This is your choice, and your opportunity. What will you do with it?


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
Daisy1967
Member
Member # 41627
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

[This message edited by Daisy1967 at 11:50 AM, January 6th (Monday)]


Posts: 70 | Registered: Dec 2013
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

Let me clarify this. WE will not have an income, that is me, my wife and my baby daughter. 100 hundred days is a ballpark in which we start eating into our savings uncomfortably. For me, this is a f*&king serious decision. She puts her comfort on the line along with my daughter's.
Its not a gift, its not a gimmick, it's f&*king serious. of course its going to take longer, but that's how much time it takes before we really feel the pinch.

I'm not exactly a freaking neurosurgeon, but my work is extremely difficult and demanding, so putting it aside is a very "High Cost" behavior (I'm referencing Janis Springs).

That being said, I can honestly say I didn't really hesitate when she came up with this. The only hesitation comes from figuring out how I'm going to explain this to my Employers so that I do not completely screw them.

Part of me was actually relieved that now there is a concrete action that shows my willingness to change, to repair and heal my very broken relationship with my wife. You see, I think I did a lot of Low Cost Actions (again, I'm referencing Janis Springs) but they are not enough to help my wife heal. According to my MC, I really didn't have a clue what the High Cost Actions were, they are different for each case and
each BS and it's not the job of the BS to spell out what these actions are. She probably told me but I didn't even identify them as
High Cost Trust Building behaviors, it just didn't click. So much of the past 6 years has been spent, trying to figure out how to deal with fall-out. Navigate through all the negative emotions (mine and hers), and trying to stay calm when the shit is hitting the fan (Yes the Triggers).

Of course there is no roadmap, but I do have something I didn't have in the past six years.
A very professional MC that seems to care to know both of us and is willing to help me find my sense of empathy and to fix things with my wife that I have hurt so much. Yes I did IC but he was not in the business of helping me fix my marriage, that's why you pay for an MC.

I do see this as an opportunity, a chance for something different, but it comes at a price and is an extremely difficult situation.

Thanks for the comments.

Wario

P.S. To be honest, some of your comments really pissed me off, but I know that every comment at its core is good. That is one of my new things is to try to be honest with my feelings, thanks for letting this be the forum for it.



Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

willing to help me find my sense of empathy

BS here. If you haven't found this in nearly 6 years, I don't understand how not working for 100 days is going to drag this out of you.

You say you haven't been doing enough. What have you been doing over the last 6 years?

Thanks.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

P.S. To be honest, some of your comments really pissed me off, but I know that every comment at its core is good. That is one of my new things is to try to be honest with my feelings, thanks for letting this be the forum for it.

Which ones pissed you off the most? It might be interesting to look into why they pissed you off.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37421 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
hitbyatruck
Member
Member # 23769
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, December 25th (Wednesday)

I don't see how taking roughly 100 days off from work is going to help that much. I know for me it would cause more stress to an already stressful situation.

I think it is great that you are willing to do what your wife asks. Do you fully understand why you need to but your work on hold for 3+ months? Will your job still be there at the end of this hiatus?


Married 1998, 2 kids
D-day3/27/09,he left 5/23/09
WH wants to rebuild 3/21/10
He moved back in 9/25/10,
Dec, 2011-finally putting it all together, H had multiple affairs.
Possible porn addict for 15 yrs.
01/2014- in house separation

Posts: 3280 | Registered: Apr 2009
dana1234
New Member
Member # 40952
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, December 26th (Thursday)

BS here another thing I wanted to point out is everything about affairs are "fantasy" not "reality..... Working for your family is not fantasy but reality! Don't we need to find our "way back" being realistic? I would love for my WH to drop everything and cater to my needs everyday with no other stress to worry about but..... Is that reality? Just a thought...

I do agree it's good after 6 years she wants u to be the man she needs, deserves😀 good luck in this journey and looking forward to hearing how it works out


Me40 BS
Him 43 WH
Married 16 years, together 24 high school sweethearts
3 Beautiful Children 12,8,8

Posts: 33 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Jersey
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, December 26th (Thursday)

Of course there is no roadmap, but I do have something I didn't have in the past six years.
A very professional MC that seems to care to know both of us and is willing to help me find my sense of empathy and to fix things with my wife that I have hurt so much. Yes I did IC but he was not in the business of helping me fix my marriage, that's why you pay for an MC.

I do see this as an opportunity, a chance for something different, but it comes at a price and is an extremely difficult situation.

No Roadmap? So you have no plan, and no goals? - That "is" what no roadmap means....
You cannot just do "plan whatever"....

Someone else is searching for your empathy with you? So where are you both looking? What's the plan?

What's the High price behavior? Is it taking a leave of absence from your job? Or was it the six years of doing nothing? Or is it something else?

Wario, you are so vague in your posts that they almost seem cryptic at times.
You're sharing that you got angry about responses, yet you ask no questions about any of the things other posters mention, nor do you ask for more clarity. In most cases you don't even answer the questions.... In a sense, you just blow each of us off as if we are your enemy, and we are not the enemy. Everyone taking the time to post wants to see you succeed.

I think most of us understand how serious your situation really is.
The question is, do you?
Taking a leave of absence is an action, but it's not what will determine the outcome of your marital recovery.
It just means you are clearing your calendar.

So, What SPECIFICALLY are you going to be doing with this open calendar?

Please share more details....

[This message edited by Card at 10:02 AM, December 26th (Thursday)]


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, December 26th (Thursday)

I don't understand the need to quit your job? Or maybe you will just take a sabbatical and your job will still be intact when you return?

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 9:55 PM, December 28th (Saturday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

I think that the whole point of this thread, like I said was for ME, to express my thoughts and feelings as I go through this difficult journey. I thank you for the comments, some positive, some negative. I don't want this thread to become some ground for aggression. I think I have enough in me.

Now back to ME and my BS. I had a chance to discuss some of this with my BS today. I realized, I have compartmentalized throughout my life to survive my FOO and to excel at what I do. The cheating was part of that compartmentalization. After disclosing my cheating to my BS, I compartmentalized this troublesome bastard and wanted to never let him see the light of day. Metaphorically speaking,
I also locked my BS in with this bastard and was pissed off at her for bringing him out into the light.

Using a computer metaphor. It like the whole architecture of my OS is counter-productive to me having a decent relationship with anyone, including myself. It was meant to survive a very neglectful childhood and allowed me to excel at school and work. But that's not a life, that's just survival and work. Love is not part of this OS. Hell, this doesn't even make a likable person.

So what am I going to do? I'm going to have to unlearn a lot and reprogram me so I can even stand me. How can I expect my BS to even like me if I find myself so completely aggressive and unkind. That is the change and it begins with stopping how I normally do things, and trying to be honest with myself, for REAL.

Once again, thanks for the comments and encouragement. Thanks wifehad5 for asking about which posts pissed me off. It forced me to reread them and really work through some anger and defensiveness, it was a good exercise.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

Hmmm. So your goal is to use a message board as a personal journal, ignore all other members that can support you and offer suggestions, and post once per day as instructed.

I'm sorry - but it doesn't make sense that this is what your wife wanted. If all she wanted was for you to express your feelings, wouldn't she have just purchased a writing journal for you?

Also, I believe there is an option to have your own journal in your members profile section. If you don't want comments from others, perhaps that's a better option? It seems you just want to get your feelings out but you aren't interested in any comments or in digging deeper by having any 'back and forth' with the experienced members her.That's fine if that is what you want, truly. I'm just mentioning the private journal as another option if you don't want to deal with other members.

Good luck with your journey.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 6:15 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

I think that the whole point of this thread, like I said was for ME, to express my thoughts and feelings as I go through this difficult journey.

oh, sorry. I guess I focused more on the "comments, please" part of your original post.

I get it now.


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

I don't want this thread to become some ground for aggression. I think I have enough in me.

Reading this thread, I did not get the impression that you were being bullied or the posters have been aggressive. I think they have been asking very valid questions based on the information that you have provided. That being said, sometimes things people say can make is angry. It's up to you to figure why. It's an excellent place to start. When reading a post you can take a step back and self examine before making an opinion or knee jerk reaction. It can allow for some introspection before replying. It can be a great exercise in changing defensive behavior.

I honestly think that if you can take the time to engage with the other members here that you can work out many issues. What other place can you talk to other people that have been in similar situations or that can understand what you are going through?

Tough questions are asked here for a reason. These really are people who care and want to help you. But you have to really want that help. Six years in should tell you that there is no quick fix or magic pill. You have to dig deep and examine all the dirty. The only way to clean it is to understand it and slowly make the changes so they stick.

Find out where that aggression is coming from. Then ask yourself if the situation truly warrants it.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 738 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

I think it's unlikely that any BS or MC has suddenly arrived at an arbitrary, "You've got 100 days, or else!" ultimatum.

Over the course of several years, Wario has not shown the changes necessary to support a healthy marriage. He's described this quite well.

If I've interpreted it correctly, he can relatively comfortably take 100 days' leave before dipping into savings uncomfortably. He plans to use this time---with the help of a counselor and his BS---to focus more intently on the marriage. Something his job would not permit.

No, it's not sustainable.

But it might very well provide the momentum needed to do just enough to get himself more fully invested in the marriage.

I find it disconcerting that the go-to is "how unreasonable of your BS!" and "What good will 100 days do?!"

His WS is LONG suffering. She is offering a gift, still. And 100 days may be just enough to give her hope that her investment will pay off.

It's not all about unreasonable BSs for whom "nothing is ever good enough."

And not all WSs reach remorse and empathy easily.


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8857 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

T/j

By saying the 100 days was unreasonable I never said his BW was as well. I mean it 100 days you are barely making a dent in your issues and there wasn't much info to go on. She says he has 100 days to be fixed. I think the word fixed was my main issue, you can't put a time limit on healing and changing. Now if her goal was 100 to show me you can do it and start fixing yourself then hey I'm in full support.


End t/j

Wario we never took yhe focus off you and your BW this whole thread was people trying to help you. If you want to monologue and do not want responses let us know. But I also doubt that was your BW's intention with aaking you to post.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2762 | Registered: Oct 2012
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 10:46 PM, December 26th (Thursday)

I think that the whole point of this thread, like I said was for ME, to express my thoughts and feelings as I go through this difficult journey. I thank you for the comments, some positive, some negative.

You're Welcome..


I don't want this thread to become some ground for aggression. I think I have enough in me.

This is a good start to having healthy discussions. I'm not being sarcastic, you really clarified yourself and this is good.

Now back to ME and my BS. I had a chance to discuss some of this with my BS today. I realized, I have compartmentalized throughout my life to survive my FOO and to excel at what I do. The cheating was part of that compartmentalization. After disclosing my cheating to my BS, I compartmentalized this troublesome bastard and wanted to never let him see the light of day. Metaphorically speaking,
I also locked my BS in with this bastard and was pissed off at her for bringing him out into the light.

This is good stuff too. Nothing cryptic...

Using a computer metaphor. It like the whole architecture of my OS is counter-productive to me having a decent relationship with anyone, including myself. It was meant to survive a very neglectful childhood and allowed me to excel at school and work. But that's not a life, that's just survival and work. Love is not part of this OS. Hell, this doesn't even make a likable person.

Again good stuff... Sharing in detail about your emotional history is how you develop emotional intimacy with your wife.


So what am I going to do? I'm going to have to unlearn a lot and reprogram me so I can even stand me. How can I expect my BS to even like me if I find myself so completely aggressive and unkind. That is the change and it begins with stopping how I normally do things, and trying to be honest with myself, for REAL.

Ok, now you've expressed the basic outline structure of a plan. This is what I was talking about in my last post...

I hope you won't be offended if I restate your last paragraph, but I'm going to give it a go.

Unlearn the old
Reprogram
Stated two goals; being able to like yourself and being someone your wife likes
Eliminate aggressiveness and unkindness
Stopping/recognizing old fruitless behaviors
Being honest with yourself

This is a good start to a plan!!


I understand being honest with yourself is important, but do you believe there could be great value in being RIGOROUSLY honest with your wife? If so, how would you make this happen? What would rigorous honesty look like to you? And equally important, what would it look like to your wife?

(It took me a long time to understand, but being honest with myself does include asking honest questions to my wife.)


Also, what resources do you intend to use to reprogram? I'm a firm believer that our best thoughts and efforts landed us in the mess we're in to begin with, so it is important to use other resources as the data for reprograming.
Any thoughts?

[This message edited by Card at 10:52 PM, December 26th (Thursday)]


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, December 27th (Friday)

Here's my take for what it's worth.

Due to your FOO issues you have arrogance in abundance, the only opinion worth listening to is your own. Because when growing up the only person you could rely on was yourself.

Hence your reluctance to listen and accept the advice of anyone else, including your IC and BS.

How's that working out for you?

Just something to ponder. YMMV.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, December 27th (Friday)

Thanks "solus sto" for helping to clarify. You it it right on.

Thanks JustWow, solus sto and Tessaract for harping on Empathy. Its true that is the missing link in my experience.

Empathy is difficult as ignoring my own feelings was a lifelong approach to survival. When I did feel bad, I made it go away very quickly. I'm referring to my cheating behavior. I felt alone, bored, misunderstood, or like a failure at times in my life and if my BS was not there to give me what I was looking for then I acquired it from someone else or a different source. I use the term "acquire" because the cheating was cold, empty and devoid of feelings. Like junkfood to a baby, or RedBull when you are running empty, just some shit to get you through a rut. It was bad for me and everyone around me. I didn't care, especially about myself.

Over the 6 years I have been doing low-cost actions, actually a lot of them but these are easy because I am using the same approach. I was trying to acquire "Trust Points" by doing actions that didn't require me to feel what I've done (i.e. Sure, access my email, go through my phone
if you please, hire a nanny, do chores, help out, text wherever I go, the list goes on and on). It was a very cold approach to rebuilding trust, devoid of feelings so it comes out as insincere. I believe that is what she saw as unremorseful.

When my BS would call me out on this, I got frustrated, pissed off, defensive, and aggressive. I see now that it was because I did not want to feel anything, I resented her for this and I resented expending so much effort and getting nowhere. That's why I am so angry inside and its
seeping out, everywhere.

That's my story. Now here's my questions for anyone who still wants to post on this thread. I know Tessaract said he's struggling with empathy, are there others? What are your experiences with developing your sense of empathy? Or did you do what I did and it was okay? As BSs, did your WSs get to this point?

Thanks for the posts, really.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, December 27th (Friday)

If you're saying you completely lack empathy, you may want to see about getting assessed for narcissistic personality disorder. One of the key signs is an empathy void.

If you are not completely lacking empathy, then you are choosing not to feel your wife's pain because it would be too much of an admission of the pain you've caused, and you'd rather it stay at arm's length.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, December 27th (Friday)


Empathy: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this....

Empathy is difficult as ignoring my own feelings was a lifelong approach to survival. When I did feel bad, I made it go away very quickly.

Wario, Empathy is not being able to experience only the bad.... It's about the full range of emotions others are experiencing.

It can be as simple as; I get excited when I watch college football games. I get into the game, I vicariously experience the ups and downs of my favorite teams. I shout with joy and groan with disappointment while they play.
This is one simple example of Empathy!


I've struggled at times with empathy myself. I've been accused of not having any at times as well. My weakness in this area stems from my career. I own my own business and employ 15 others. I listen to customers all day and it's my job to provide solutions for them. So at the end of the day it's easy for me to stay in that mode with my wife. She talks and I give advice.... Of course she must remind me not to do this. She doesn't want analyzed.... She just wants me to listen empathetically and show my care and concern.

At the beginning of our recovery I discovered that offering solutions to her was an extreme love busting behavior. She shared that every time I did this, she felt as though I thought she was incapable of coming up with her own solutions. It made her feel as though she was inadequate in some way. And this harmed our marriage and actually caused her to trigger....

She often just wanted to talk, connect, share about her day and know that I was listening. The problems came because I wasn't enjoying her company. I was busy moving through her problem while she talked, finishing her sentences and offering advice.... Then moving on to something else.
My wife is very intuitive. She can sense when I am having compassion or being empathetic and she can easily tell when I'm just going through the motions to pacify her...

Trying to pacify her has always been a bad idea...... The result of this behavior is; I'm told I have no empathy, or that I lack any compassion.....


Listening skills are critical for developing empathy in a marriage! There are some good articles, about listening skills, out there if you just google it....


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, December 28th (Saturday)

Thanks for still posting and reading my story.

To address painfulpast's comment. I do think I have a lack of empathy. Am I going to assess myself for a personality disorder, probably not, that's just another label. The problem is still the same. My MC after listening to both our stories, has pointed out that I take very little care of my own emotions so it is very difficult to consider others. I neglect myself,
as I have been neglected and as such, I neglected and hurt my wife. It is only after having a daughter, did I start to consider another and start to break the cycle of neglect. It seems with a child, it is easier to see how unloving one can be. Even with my daughter it is difficult to be empathetic, but at least I am present and I am trying to listen. I didn't do that at all with my wife, until now.

I agree with Card, it is about listening, but not just to my wife but to myself. I have over the past few days begun to listen to myself a lot more. That is being aware of how tired I am and acknowledging my limits and sharing this with my wife. I think this is the rigorous honesty and awareness that is required to change the lifelong pattern. I hope I stay on course. The challenge comes when things get busy and I start to tell myself to just suck it up and soldier on,
neglecting my emotions, neglecting the stress and letting the resentment and anger build up. I think that is why my wife needs me to step back from work to allow me some time to build a practice so that when the next
crisis at work comes up I don't revert.

I will see my MC/IC in 2 days and set up a plan with him on how I can change my pattern. I'll see how it goes.

Wish me luck,

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, December 28th (Saturday)

NPD isn't just 'another label', and if that is indeed a 'label' that can accurately be applied to you, then you and your wife are spinning your wheels. NPD is a very disturbing PD, and a person married to someone with NPD is spinning their wheels trying to get the nice, loving person to come back, because that person never existed.

There is a thread in the "I Can Relate" forum for people that are/were married to someone with NPD.

The advice given in books, articles, and by professionals in the mental health profession is for anyone involved with someone with NPD should leave because it is a maddening nightmare and always ends badly, with a lot of crazy making behavior thrown in for good measure.

I can't say that you have this or not, but I think saying it's 'just another label' is a real cop out. Assessing a disorder can not only help explain behavior but can help to deal with it.

I'm sorry you aren't interested in determining what may be the problem, because that would be a huge step toward correcting it.

Good luck. I hope you get what you need from 100 days at home and one post a day on SI. I've noticed that here you do the bare minimum - one post a day. No more. That seems to say that you aren't interested in posting or learning at all, and that you are doing as you were told to do. I do hope that isn't how you're approaching the other areas of your wife's healing - the bare minimum. I hope for your wife's sake you're more involved than that.

I have to wonder, if you lack empathy and cannot understand what is causing your wife so much pain, how it is that you are still trying instead of simply saying you don't understand and you need to end things because this is no life for either of you.

Is it that you enjoy the focus being you, your behavior, your affair, your attitude, your feelings, your efforts, and generally anything that has to do with you? Do you enjoy the attention, and seeing how much your wife cares and is willing to try for you?

6 years is a long time for a person to continually be told they aren't doing enough. How do you feel about the length of time you've been working toward reconciliation?

Again, I wish you success, and good luck. Thanks in advance.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Tesseract
Member
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, December 28th (Saturday)

I'm finding a great many parallels between your situation and my own. I grew up in an environment where emotions were considered a weakness and being on the defensive was the norm. I carried that over into my relationship with my wife and our children. Negativity, overly critical, the works.

I have also been very career and school focused. I'm in a demanding post-grad and I've often hung my hat on being successful academically. Unfortunately that has also carried over. Approaching problems with my wife as I would a math equation or legal question or (in your case, I'd imagine) a coding error was not the way to go, especially since she's just as smart as me and way, way more savvy when it comes to emotional issues. Probably similar to what Card did.

So yeah, I have a major issue with empathy. My first step, as I'm sure you're finding, was just connecting with what I felt. It will absolutely have a pronounced affect on everything you say and do, particularly your body language and tone. Being unaware of what I'm feeling precluded any acknowledgement of what my wife was feeling. I tried very, very hard to condense everything down do a simple math problem to solve and then put aside. I still have to, at times, deliberately connect with what I'm feeling. I find that happier feelings (chiefly joy and awe) make for better outcomes, so I try to focus on things I find beautiful and think about how it makes me feel.

Unfortunately I initially thought that the first step was it. I then had a tendency to make everything about what I'm feeling! Cause hey, look, I have feelings! Look at them! Look! Right there! I see them, do you see them? Are you sure you're paying attention to them? Giving them their due? Didn't go down so well -- every issue turned into a debate where I would ignore what my wife was feeling and insist she wasn't acknowledging mine. It's an ouroboros though, I found myself dwelling on the negative feelings and resenting their alleged lack of acknowledgement.

It wasn't until I realized that I was going in circles and realized that if I was feeling that crummy what must my wife be feeling and focusing on helping her that I had any sort of breakthrough. Even then it has been far more cyclical than I'd prefer. I often find that I am lacking a lot of the tools of empathy even when I'm trying to be empathetic. That's largely what I'm working on now.

I'd echo what one of the above posters said about being 'rigorously honest' but amend it to say 'rigorously kind' or 'happy.' You should be literally trying to damn near poison her (and yourself) with dopamine. To me, actually showing that I care or was pleased in a verbal way always felt disingenuous. I was worried that it'd be rejected or sneered at.

The best advice I can give you is to offer freely, all the time; without a care or expectation of what reaction you'll receive or whether or not she'll believe you. She might not, but as my daughter has told me often, it's not my job to determine what she does with it, it's only my job to give it to her.

I wish I could say that any of this was easy for me or that I always follow my own advice. Truthfully, I'm not even close. I'm really just learning how to put all of this into practice. It can be difficult to find any traction amid the storm of a confrontation or amid the day to day slog. It may not even translate well to your situation. I offer in the hope that maybe some part of the terrible pain I have imposed on my family can perhaps help you avoid some of the mistakes I've made.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 8:19 PM, December 28th (Saturday)

..... over the past few days begun to listen to myself a lot more. That is being aware of how tired I am and acknowledging my limits and sharing this with my wife

Wario,

There is an acronym I like; H.A.L.T.

Hungry
Angry
Lonely
Tired

Listening to my body and making sure I'm not to hungry, angry, lonely or tired is an important part of recovery for me....

It's nice to see you're recognizing this and sharing it with your wife..... Good stuff!

I'm doing cartwheels about this...

.....and set up a plan with him on how I can change my pattern.

[This message edited by Card at 8:20 PM, December 28th (Saturday)]


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, December 29th (Sunday)

If you''re saying you completely lack empathy, you may want to see about getting assessed for narcissistic personality disorder. One of the key signs is an empathy void.

Let''s leave the diagnosing to the professionals. Wario''s starting IC soon.

I was almost completely devoid of empathy. I believed I was a (mostly) law-abiding sociopath. BH said I was like a Vulcan, without the logic. In my adult life I''d hardly ever cried, rarely apologized sincerely (just used the words), and I delighted in "getting away with" breaking the rules.

My therapist diagnosed me with PTSD from childhood trauma, and immediately reassured me that I wasn''t a sociopath or anything like it.

Don''t mean to t/j, I''m telling you this because I can personally guarantee you that empathy can be regained. Two things majorly helped me:

1) My therapist, at our first session, gave me a homework assignment. Once every hour, take a moment and assess how you are feeling, and write it down. She gave me a "feelings list." The first week? I wrote down stuff like "neutral" and "ambivalent" even though those were (clearly) not on the list! When my therapist told me it''s common for abuse victims to disconnect from their emotions, I realized...hey, I''m not actually a Vulcan or a robot! This isn''t how I''m meant to be! And the wires started reconnecting.

2) I read a book called "Nonviolent Communication" by Rosenberg. It''s basically a how-to manual on developing empathy. When I started implementing the techniques described in this book, my kids were like, "Who are you, and what have you done with Mom?" Wario I guarantee if you read this book and follow its step-by-step instructions, you will see your daughter (and wife, and world) through new, more compassionate eyes. It changed my life.

These things, along with a supportive husband and family, SI (which my therapist says is like group therapy), and nearly-constant vigilance over time, have set me on the path to empathy. A year ago I wouldn''t have thought it possible.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Concerned  Posted: 9:53 AM, December 29th (Sunday)

t/j
painfulpast, IMO your last post was more about projection of your WH''s issues, and displacement of your anger, than supporting Wario.

I''m sorry you aren''t interested in determining what may be the problem, because that would be a huge step toward correcting it.

So, he''s dismissive of your suggestion that he get evaluated for an extremely rare PD, therefore he''s not interested in determining what the problem is? That is unfair and hurtful.

I have to wonder, if you lack empathy and cannot understand what is causing your wife so much pain, how it is that you are still trying instead of simply saying you don''t understand and you need to end things because this is no life for either of you.

My interpretation of this is, "You''ll never understand your wife''s pain, so quit trying and let her go!" The guy agreed with you that he lacks empathy. He''s going to IC tomorrow, which indicates that he recognizes he has issues that need professional attention. Kicking him when he''s down, and accusing him of "choosing not to feel" his wife''s pain, is counter-productive.

end t/j


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, December 29th (Sunday)

Thanks Card, Tessaract and 20WrongsVs1 for sharing your experiences about lacking empathy. I can really see a lot of commonalities in our experiences. Its good to know that I'm not alone
in this journey and its not hopeless. One can learn to be empathetic with practice and hopefully
my life and those around me would improve.

20WrongsVS1 thanks for sharing your therapy homework suggestion with me. I'll get a notebook and
try it out. Every hour, sounds like a lot, but I guess that is how one starts to practice an
awareness. Also, thanks for the book suggestion as well, I'll download on my Kindle tonight.

By the way Tessaract, Card and 20WrongsVs, how have your BSs been since you've learned and expressed
your empathy?

Thanks for the support and comments. I understand that not all comments will be so positive or even
encouraging, but that is the nature of a forum, I guess.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Tesseract
Member
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, December 30th (Monday)

I've also read Nonviolent Communication. It's a great book, though I found it a bit self-aggrandizing at times. The first time I tried applying it in a conflict situation was disastrous. I tried to apply it to the problem at hand like I was balancing a chemical formula. It didn't work exceptionally well -- at all. However, I have found that the book has been immensely helpful in that it played a large role in growing my awareness of the fact that there is intent and emotion behind what someone is saying.

As a card carrying expert in compartmentalization (like most of us in this section of the forums) I often failed to link a current situation to the holistic context of the utter hell I've put my wife and our family through. The NVC book helped me to understand that my wife's anger and pain were not an attack. That awareness allows me the few breaths I need to reevaluate my initial defensive responses and try to choose something better (still a major work in progress).

The difference between how my wife (and kids) responds when I'm being genuinely empathetic and when I'm just angry or frustrated isn't night and day; it's black hole and supernova. They're hyper, hyper aware of anything resembling the behavior/attitudes/thought processes that hurt them to begin with.

Having empathy, feeling it with her, enables me to actually comfort her and reassure her. My wife, and probably most betrayed spouses are not in a position that they want to be in. Empathy lets you be a port in a storm. And, selfishly, it makes me feel amazing to be able to provide that for her when I can manage it.

To use a more concrete example (which I typically prefer in your position):

Without empathy I: 1) am more likely to be defensive/angry; 2) will likely blame shift and minimize the issue like there's a gold medal in it for me; 3) become distant and glacially cold (wife calls it my pharaoh face); 4) eventually cease initiating anything but an argument

Without empathy she: 1) is angry and hurt; 2) feels that the situation is hopeless and reconciliation is impossibles; 3) more likely to trigger (really, the whole situation is a trigger); 4) becomes depressed and empty; 5) sees that I am willing to discard her feelings and choose something (my pride/anger/fear/obsession) over her again.

With empathy I: 1) get over any feelings of anger or hurt very quickly, they just cease to exist when I focus on my wife's pain. I don't really know how to explain it, they just go away; 2) get motivated -- this isn't some vague half-assed anger I can't do anything with, it's a problem that I, and indeed only I, can solve; 3) value everything much more, am much happier in general; 4) seek out things that make us both happier, doing things like posting on SI and going to counseling and having those dreaded talks about feelings and The Past are far less terrifying.

With empathy she: 1) gets past the initial anger/hurt much more quickly; 2) is much more amenable to physical comfort sooner; 3) is more willing (maybe I should say able) to give me the benefit of the doubt when I say something stupid because I'm new to the whole expressing myself thing; 4) is visibly happier and more enthusiastic (this is really the biggest one); 5) is reminded that I am not just a source of pain; 6) has more hope for the future.

These aren't comprehensive and I may well be off base or flat out wrong about some of the things I wrote about what she's felt. I may have also left out important things that simply aren't occurring to me at the moment, bur I hope that gives you the general gist.

I find that comments, 'positive' or 'negative' will at the very least help me stay honest with myself and give me some questions to pose myself (and maybe my IC). I don't know if painfulpast is right or not, but what she said caused me to question why I've chosen not to be empathetic. I don't think it's as cut and dry as she made it out to be, but that may well be what your wife thinks about it.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, December 30th (Monday)

t/j

20WrongsVs1, I'm sorry you don't like my post, but it was most definitely not meant to be hurtful, nor about my WS. You write:

So, he''s dismissive of your suggestion that he get evaluated for an extremely rare PD, therefore he''s not interested in determining what the problem is? That is unfair and hurtful.

It is rare, but not extremely, and being on the spectrum isn't even rare. He said he wasn't interested in getting assess. I would say that says he's not interested in finding out if that could be the issue. He has stated many times he has a complete lack of empathy, even for his daughter. That is more than just trouble with empathy. It's worthy of being explored imo. You are free to disagree. I did, however, leave the diagnosing to the professionals. I merely suggested he see one and ask about this.

My interpretation of this is, "You''ll never understand your wife''s pain, so quit trying and let her go!"

Interesting, because my question meant "It's been 6 years, and by now you must be tired of constantly being told you aren't doing enough" which I did clarify in my post. It was truly just a question. I'm NOT saying he should be tired, or that he doesn't love his wife. However, a person that lacks empathy would probably have very little patience for listening to someone go on about pain for 6 years.

At no point did I say he should quit trying, and I don't think he should.

If you or anyone else has any other questions on my post I'm happy to get a PM. I ONLY responded here because I felt that if one poster took my post incorrectly, others may have as well.

I do think a person with extreme lack of empathy should have that looked into. It's clearly an issue OP would like help with - so why not get the PD that is based on that looked at instead of calling it a "label'? I said it's more than a label because it is. It's a diagnosis, which is usually needed to know how to go about addressing the issue.

I only wanted OP to perhaps look at getting the issue looked at differently - I wasn't attacking him.

I hope that helps gain some understanding of my comments. They were meant in support, and that last part was a true question that I had.

Thanks, and I apologize if my comments caused OP or anyone any kind of hurt.


[This message edited by painfulpast at 7:29 AM, December 30th (Monday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
BaxtersBFF
Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, December 30th (Monday)

Do you feel empathy for others besides your BW and kids? Or is it just not there for anyone?

solus sto - And not all WSs reach remorse and empathy easily.

Six years is a long time. Have you had, or are you in the process of having that OMG moment where you realize what your BW has had to put up with? It sounds like you are starting to get that, and to understand how lucky you are that she is still there. All of the "low cost actions" are what I see as the "low-hanging fruit" in that they are pretty easy, but as you see now, without doing any other work, they can lead to resentment on your part. So basically, you've strung your BW along for six years now giving only minimal effort. And she's still in the game.

Another question...and you already alluded to this somewhat...how big of a deal is this 100-days without income for your BW? I know for a fact that the stress of no income for that period of time would completely unhinge my BW. How big of a challenge is this going to be to your BW? Or will it be more of a challenge to her to have you in her space a lot more than when you are working a normal schedule? Because we also faced that challenge when I worked swing shift for a few years. After getting a day shift job, there was a huge adjustment for my wife because all of a sudden she had to factor me into her plans.

Getting sidetracked...just curious how your BW views the 100 days of sacrifice, or it is a bigger deal to you. Are you going to resent her for this 100-day hiatus? Are you prepared for dealing with the subsequent loss of your safety net (savings)?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6099 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 1:17 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

We had an MC session today. After which my wife told me she pisses on everything that I am and everything that I have done. That I have disappointed her in every way possible. Humanly, relationship wise, as a boy-friend as a husband, and even professionally. Everything I am is completely not what she wanted. Rather than compartmentalize it, I'm sitting with it and trying to experience her utter disappointment in me. Now I know exactly why I disconnected from feeling it.

Wario

P.S. I just put my baby girl to sleep, I missed my daily deadline of posting on SI.


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 5:15 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

After which my wife told me she pisses on everything that I am and everything that I have done.

If this is what your BS actually said, and I stress IF.

Your lack of empathy is not the only serious problem in your marriage.

Why did she not say this during the MC session? It would have been an opportunity for frank discussion.
Or does she not like being seen as the one with an issue, since everything must be your fault.

Just something to ponder.YMMV.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Or does she not like being seen as the one with an issue, since everything must be your fault.

That is really unfair. You have no idea (nor do I) of what happened in MC that may have upset her. Add to that what we witness here - again, bare minimum, one post per day, not interested in discussions with other members, just doing what was directed (one post per day), etc., and 6 years of small steps only, I'm sure the frustration level is high.

wario, I am sorry that the words chosen were harsh. It sounds as if she is still extremely frustrated, and feels like, despite you agreeing to 'one post per day' and staying home for 100 days, there is still something missing, and your wife is frustrated, extremely.

How does she feel about your actions for the past week? Does she read your posts here? Or is that about you?

Please wario, ask her if the 'one post per day' was to get you to read some other comments and perhaps engage in discussions, or if it was simply to come here, make a post, and leave?

Speaking only about my sitch, if I had asked my WH to come here once per day and post, if he were posting as you were, ignoring posters' questions designed to get you to dig deeper, not discussing specific acts that have transpired, etc., I would view that as almost mocking my request. Again, that's how I would see it. I'm not speaking as your wife, but it may be worth a talk?

Also, aside from staying home, and coming here once a day, what else has changed?

I am sorry that your wife chose those words. I'm sure they hurt, and that can make a person withdraw more instead of come out.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 6:04 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

That is really unfair. You have no idea (nor do I) of what happened in MC that may have upset her. Add to that what we witness here - again, bare minimum, one post per day, not interested in discussions with other members, just doing what was directed (one post per day), etc., and 6 years of small steps only, I'm sure the frustration level is high.

wario, I am sorry that the words chosen were harsh. It sounds as if she is still extremely frustrated, and feels like, despite you agreeing to 'one post per day' and staying home for 100 days, there is still something missing, and your wife is frustrated, extremely.

How does she feel about your actions for the past week? Does she read your posts here? Or is that about you?

Please wario, ask her if the 'one post per day' was to get you to read some other comments and perhaps engage in discussions, or if it was simply to come here, make a post, and leave?

Speaking only about my sitch, if I had asked my WH to come here once per day and post, if he were posting as you were, ignoring posters' questions designed to get you to dig deeper, not discussing specific acts that have transpired, etc., I would view that as almost mocking my request. Again, that's how I would see it. I'm not speaking as your wife, but it may be worth a talk?

Also, aside from staying home, and coming here once a day, what else has changed?

I am sorry that your wife chose those words. I'm sure they hurt, and that can make a person withdraw more instead of come out

^^^^^^^This is exactly how I'm reading this thread, too.

My ex did this absolute bare minimum thing. He did it so he could say he was doing what he was supposed to be doing (or not doing). But it was clear he greatly resented doing anything. He never went beyond the absolute bare minimum. Never stepped up and came up with actions, responses or behaviors on his own. He was only going though the motions. I felt such pain & resentment because of this, knowing that our marriage wasn't worth any additional effort on his part. Anytime I mentioned this at home, anytime it was brought up in MC, he could loudly & indignantly claim, "But I'm doing what you asked! What more do you want of me?"

I find it interesting that the OP indulged in emotional affairs. I'm wondering if the OP's BW would like to see the OP invest in her/the marriage the same kind of passion & emotions that he invested in the EA's and his work.

I also find the title of this thread interesting. Drastic times, yes. The marriage may end in less than 100 days. But drastic measures? Okay, going on a hiatus from work is drastic. How about some drastic measures related to self-work and marriage rescue? How about doing more than the absolute bare minimum and engage with the members here in a dynamic, meaningful, engaged and frequent way?


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9830 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

@painfulpast

We WS's need to own our actions.
It's part of being authentic.
In no way do I absolve wario of his piss poor effort so far.

However when a BS says


After which my wife told me she pisses on everything that I am and everything that I have done. That I have disappointed her in every way possible. Humanly, relationship wise, as a boy-friend as a husband, and even professionally.

Straight out of a MC session where grievances should be aired. Don't you think a BS should own their actions?
Or is being a BS a free pass forever from being a bitch? (I admit close to DDay it actually is a free pass)

If WS said those words to a BS you and others (including me) would be berating them till the cows came home. Why the double standard? Is it because we WS's deserve it?

Please remember this couple is 6 years out from DDay and this is the BS's goto place when trying to reconcile.
Shoot me down if you wish, but I maintain his lack of empathy and effort are not the only serious problem in the marriage.


Just something to ponder.YMMV.

ETA: This is all based again on IF this is what she said.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 8:30 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Wario, how did you feel when she said that? Those were some pretty harsh words. Congratulations for not returning fire.

Are you planning to speak with her about it? If you''ve read the NVC book, this is a good opportunity to try on some empathy techniques. You could say something like this...

When you said I''ve been a disappointment to you for our entire M, I felt hurt and rejected, and for the first time...I finally realized how hurt and rejected you must have felt by my infidelity. It hit me like a punch in the gut, the pain I caused you, and I can''t begin to imagine how deep your hurt is. I am so sorry I hurt you, you did not deserve that. I can''t change the past, but I really want to work now to connect with my feelings. Thank you for giving me this last chance.

You are allowed to feel hurt by what she said. You''re allowed to feel angry! But, take care not to attributed the source of your anger to your BW''s words. I''m making this up for you, but...when she said that, you felt angry because part of you agrees with her. You''ve been a complete failure and disappointment as a husband. You feel guilty and ashamed, because of your actions, not because of her words.

How was the actual MC session?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Why the double standard? Is it because we WS''s deserve it?

You mean we don''t?

t/j
I always cringe a bit when new SI members make their first posts without a stop sign. Some BSs who are still in a great deal of pain, even if they mean well, project their WS onto the OP and displace their anger. When I see it, I worry that the WS will not feel safe and supported here, and that they''ll leave because they''re feeling ganged up on.
end t/j

I''m seeing a lot of concern and empathy for Mrs. Wario in this thread. This is not Mrs. Wario''s thread. It''s Wario''s. Yeah, he was pretty petulant at the start, but he''s starting to open up. Let''s demonstrate empathy for Wario, and express some concern for his feelings.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Hi SlowUptake!

You wrote:

Straight out of a MC session where grievances should be aired. Don't you think a BS should own their actions?
Or is being a BS a free pass forever from being a bitch? (I admit close to DDay it actually is a free pass)

She absolutely should own her actions. I think the wording was poor, and I stated that. If she was frustrated by something that occurred in MC, she should have addressed it in the session, or brought it up in a better manner after the session if that is when she decided that she did want to discuss it. Anyone can think about something and then, at a later time, decide they would like to address it.

Again, we have no idea what was said in MC. We don't know if things were said that were extremely upsetting to BW, or if the MC wouldn't let her say what was on her mind as he was 'addressing the issue with WH'. We simply do not know why she was upset, or why she waited to bring it up.

We know that the words used were completely inappropriate, and weren't designed to help resolve an issue, but instead were designed to punish wario by hurting him. That's wrong, and causes more harm, not less. Yes, she needs to own that.

What I felt was unfair was the comment that 'everything has to be your fault' in response to wario's post. That, to me, is reading too much into the comment. Without all the facts we do not know that this is the case. As you said, it's 6 years out. That doesn't sound to me like this is a woman that isn't interested in working through this, or is only interested in blaming. It sounds like a woman that is extremely frustrated, and after 6 years who wouldn't be?

Without knowing more, and wario so far has shown little interest in really sharing with the members here, or engaging, or anything else, so we have no idea if that is really her outlook. That was my only point.

Again - own what she said? Absolutely. Assuming she believes she is always innocent and that she thinks the entire world's problems are because of wario? That, imo, was unfair. That's all.

EDIT: Thanks to 20WrongsVs1, I noticed you asking about WSs 'deserving' harsh treatment. No, you do not deserve harsh treatment. If R is going to happen, then both sides need to step away from the insults and blaming, and start working towards R. it took me some time to realize that in my own life - but that is where I am now. This is why I was so critical of the words she used and commented that the comment itself must have hurt, and produced the opposite of the desired effect of opening up. The comment was inappropriate, wrong, not right, negative, etc. I do NOT agree with her making such a comment.

I do NOT believe remorseful WSs deserve' to be treated with less respect than a BS. Please don't ask my opinion on a nonremorseful WS, or a nonremoreful anything. if a person causes harm or pain to another and is completely without care or concern afterwards, they won't receive much respect from me. The WSs here are all working hard and trying to heal themselves, their spouse, their family. There is a great deal in that to be respected. A great deal.


t/j
I really appreciate your response, sincerely. I love having discussions about topics, particularly on the WS forum. This is where I really learn. I know what being a BS is all about. Learning more about the WS - the remorseful WS, that is - I find extremely interesting, and I absolutely love having discussions about various topics.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 9:00 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

@painfulpast

What I felt was unfair was the comment that 'everything has to be your fault' in response to wario's post. That, to me, is reading too much into the comment. Without all the facts we do not know that this is the case.

On reflection, you are absolutely right.
I made an assumption. My sincere apologies.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Absolutely no apologies necessary. And I made an edit that I do hope you read.

Thanks!!


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)

You mean we don't?

Most assuredly we do. At first

After 6 years, not so much.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 9:58 AM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Thanks for all your posts. I only got to a wifi hotspot now.

Let me clarify things. My BS did not actually say she "pisses on everything" that is a summary for the talk that went on when we got home after our MC session. The MC session is not long enough for this. The key here is that is what I felt. That is the message that came across when she tried to explain to me how utterly disappointed she was in choosing me as her life partner (we have been together for a little over 20 years). Basically telling me from my choices in choosing my profession to my cheating to my lack of effort and remorse, its just been nothing but disappointment. I thought that from a professional standpoint I was doing alright, but apparently that's a disappointment too. She outlined a vision of what my profession would be like after I graduated and its the polar opposite to what I have now, although I like what I'm doing from a professional point of view. So to be told that almost
everything you've done in your adult life is a mistake, that is getting pissed on.

Now that is just the start. Because this was some difficult shit to process, for me, it took me a while to formulate my daily post. Like I said in my unfinished post, I was trying to sit with it and understand the despair and sadness of all this. I didn't end up not posting on time, thus breaking my promise. So after putting my toddler to bed, and thinking, ah f*&ck I need to get that post done, I crashed and woke up at 2:00am. So I blew the deadline and added more fuel to the
fire by posting a very unfinished post, that I am continuing today. After looking back at the day, I was extremely busy and instead of work, there were other things that I tended to before I spent time on my post, like my daughter, cooking, family, the "low cost" behaviors. I should have admitted to myself there was a resistance to post because it was difficult, ask
my wife for help (i.e. take care of my daughter for like half an hour) and just f&*cking post. But I let it go saying I will do it later when she goes to sleep.

My BS was livid when she read that post at 2:00am. Her take was that I broke my promise to post, that I was victimizing myself and blaming her for my lack of empathy. Let me ask, "Is that what comes across?"

She's trying to cool down now but it's New Year's Eve and I'm in the doghouse.

I went to IC today, he asked me "What is the point of posting?", "Are the posts for you, or for her?", "Are they honest expressions of your feelings?", "Do you edit them because they are being read by your spouse?" He asked me to clarify things with my BS because there is a certainty that she will not agree with what you write. That, these posts should not be a source of more stress. So know what they are for and establish some agreed boundaries on what you write.

I think that I'm posting as a means of tracking my progress, but with feedback from a support forum. That I can express my feelings honestly and get help. I guess I do this under the knowledge that my BS is reading but that the help I get overrides the risk from pissing her off if "I write the wrong thing".


That's what I have for now,

Wario

P.S. I don't feel I'm ignoring other posters, I read each one and try to take what I can from them. I don't think every poster
expects me to personally respond to all their questions.

[This message edited by wario at 3:39 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

P.S. I don't feel I'm ignoring other posters, I read each one and try to take what I can from them. I don't think every poster
expects me to personally respond to all their questions.

Actually, yes. It's been my experience that it usually works that way here. You are certainly free to respond or not.

I wish you and your wife luck wario, but I don't feel that there is much for me to offer here, Best wishes in the new year.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 5:08 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

So to be told that almost everything you've done in your adult life is a mistake, that is getting pissed on.

Your wife says everything you've done in your adult life is a mistake. How do you feel about that? Embarrassed, angry, sad, annoyed...?

Let me paraphrase something from my recent empathy thread. Star Trek IV, the movie, Spock's regaining his memory from being regenerated (or whatever) and he's got three computers quizzing him on obscure facts and ridiculously complex math problems, and he's firing back flawless answers. The computer then says....

How do you feel?

Spock says he doesn't understand the question. The computer repeats,

How do you feel?

Spock says, My feelings are irrelevant.

Your feelings are relevant, Wario. How do you feel? "Getting pissed on" isn't a feeling. Drop your walls and connect with your feelings. Just take care not to vent the negative ones at your wife.

painfulpast, last I checked, SI is about advice and support. Yet you've offered Wario mostly judgment and criticism. Why?

You don't really answer any of them, either. You just talk.

Wario has acknowledged and thanked several members, including you, for their advice. He's answered questions, including in his last post.

Actually, yes. That's generally how it works here.

You're the arbiter of "how SI works" now? And to me, "I don't feel that there is much to offer here," translates to, "This isn't the place for you. Shove off." That is dismissive, not supportive.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Sincere apologies. I said 'generally' because, from what I've seen, most of the time there is a back and forth. So, generally. I was not trying to 'give rules', and I apologize if it was taken that way.

By not much to offer, I meant by me, not for wario. I would never presume to know what another person could get from this site, or any other.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. Again, I meant absolutely no disrespect, and I apologize as it appears to have been perceived as such. That was never my intention.

EDIT - I have edited my post, in hopes of it more clearly stating what my meaning was. My "good luck" statement was sincere. I was not clear enough on other parts, so I have edited. Thank you again for the opportunity to clarify. I would hate for any member to think I was saying things the way that it was being interpreted.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 5:10 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

You're the arbiter of "how SI works" now?

Sorry 20WrongsVs1, IMHO, your out of line.

Here's why.

We have established that wario will not express his feelings on this thread.

You keep going with the direct approach of asking him to express his feelings, it's not working.

The object of asking wario questions is a more sublte way of determining his feelings based on his answers.

It is a proven & effective process for those people who have difficulty expressing feelings.

Unfortunately wario is continuing to be arrogant, stubborn, or just doesn't want to put in the effort, take your pick, by not answering the questions.

Someone who is truly here for guidance would answer the questions. All of them, not just cherry pick a couple.

It is just more evidence that wario is here to placate his BS's demand that he post.

Compliance versus remorse.

Just something to ponder.YMMV.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 7:42 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Well its New Year's Eve and I can't come home.

I managed to read 20WrongsVs1's post on my tiny Blackberry and have caught a friendly wifi signal so I can transmit.

What I'm feeling at this point and time is

Complete abandonment, rejection, frustration, despair and a deep sadness. I try to picture my angry wife, and my cute little daughter smiling at me and I feel so completely ashamed and sad. I have fucked up my whole life, I have let it get to this point and I am so mad at myself for letting it happen. I hate myself for not seeing, yes at age 18 that not having boundaries with a girlfriend was only going to piss
my future wife off. That going on dates with girls I met at work and whereever in my 20s was unfaithful. That lying to my fiancee about it and not telling her before I got married was a bad idea. That flirting with some young girl a few years ago was bad no matter how shitty I felt about myself in grad school after I was married.

I realize that my wife has felt the way I do now for the past 6 years. And on top of feeling, abandoned, rejected, sad, frustrated, she also feels so anxious because the closest person she lives with is literally unbelievable. I
understand that she finds me inhuman and at times feels disgusted with herself for being with such a person.

I am trying to find a way to convince her that I do not ever want her to feel this way again. That I am truly sorry. I know that I am so ill-equipped that I keep on f*&king up trying to get this message across. Tripping over in anger, trying to run away from these feelings. Even if
it is too late, I want my BS to know I am sorry and that I feel utterly miserable for putting her through this.

I wish her peace and good night's rest for New Years.

Wario

P.S. Sorry SlowUptake you are out of line. Do not dictate my timetable for me to express my feelings. You have no idea how much shit I have on my plate, how much fucking baggage I have and I am fully aware that have not fully disclosed my situation which may lead you jump to conclusions. But chill out on the judgement, weren't you a WS once as well (empathy, compassion, REMEMBER). Thanks 20WrongsVs1 for the push, I needed that.


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

(((wario)))

I'm very sorry you are in this situation. Regardless of anything else, you had just started your 100 days, and now you've been cut off after a week it seems. That must be very frustrating.

I had said I felt I had nothing to offer, but I wanted to offer support at this time. I'm very sorry you're feeling so down. Please remember, no one can change their past, but any one of us has the power to change us from this point forward. I hope your wife continues to try R with you.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

But chill out on the judgement, weren't you a WS once as well

Not was, am.
My BS has not given me the gift of 'former' yet.

weren't you a WS once as well

Yes and as such I know bullshit when I see it.

You have no idea how much shit I have on my plate, how much fucking baggage I have

Now we see something, have you always had this victim mentality?
(Sorry I know that's another question)[Not being sarcastic]

With that being said.


What I'm feeling at this point and time is

Complete abandonment, rejection, frustration, despair and a deep sadness. I try to picture my angry wife, and my cute little daughter smiling at me and I feel so completely ashamed and sad. I have fucked up my whole life, I have let it get to this point and I am so mad at myself for letting it happen. I hate myself for not seeing, yes at age 18 that not having boundaries with a girlfriend was only going to piss
my future wife off. That going on dates with girls I met at work and whereever in my 20s was unfaithful. That lying to my fiancee about it and not telling her before I got married was a bad idea. That flirting with some young girl a few years ago was bad no matter how shitty I felt about myself in grad school after I was married.

I realize that my wife has felt the way I do now for the past 6 years. And on top of feeling, abandoned, rejected, sad, frustrated, she also feels so anxious because the closest person she lives with is literally unbelievable. I
understand that she finds me inhuman and at times feels disgusted with herself for being with such a person.

I am trying to find a way to convince her that I do not ever want her to feel this way again. That I am truly sorry. I know that I am so ill-equipped that I keep on f*&king up trying to get this message across. Tripping over in anger, trying to run away from these feelings. Even if
it is too late, I want my BS to know I am sorry and that I feel utterly miserable for putting her through this.

Well done (((wario))), a breakthrough! (I'm not being sarcastic)

Sorry to be harsh, but I think you needed it to get you out of your malaise.

Just something to ponder.YMMV.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 8:28 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
jo2love
Moderator
Member # 31528
Red  Posted: 8:16 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Everyone -

Let's get this thread back on track and give Wario the support he asked for. Please step away from this thread if you feel you are unable to post accordingly.

Thank you.


Posts: 35933 | Registered: Mar 2011
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Wario,
Thousands of people enter marathons every year. The vast majority have no hope of winning in terms of crossing the finish line first. They win by finishing the race.

Regardless of how your BW feels today please keep on keeping on. It will be worth it for your own sake.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4000 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 10:08 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

I am sorry for the suffering you and your family are going through. I wish you the strength of will and the clarity of mind to get to that place where you will be at peace with yourself and reconciled with your wife.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Last night has got to be the shittiest New Years Eve ever for me. I have never felt so utterly
alone, longing to be with my daughter and my BS. It was sooooo sad and I was so angry at
myself for getting to this point. I sat with those sad and angry feelings for hours, trying to
to experience it instead of just putting them aside. It was sad because it was sad, it was
frustrating because it was frustrating, no more, no less and I tried to stop beating myself up and
just feel the pain, saying these feelings will pass.

Once I let the feelings pass, I started to take stock of how the hell I got here. Here are some of the problems I found in my pattern

1. No Boundaries. I have to be aware of my limits and say no, that is no to my work, no to my stupid ego, and No to my BS. Its not bad to say no, its actually kind.

2. Not standing up for myself. Stop saying Yes and resenting it later, goes with the above.

3. Lack of awareness. Know what the hell I'm doing, not just mindlessly doing. Be a human-being not a human-doing so to speak. Not Thinking before doing.

4. Inconsiderate. Not considering the consequences of my actions. Not considering loved one's in my choices.

5. Lack of empathy. Ignoring my feelings and thus ignoring other's feelings.

6. Be honest. Don't Lie. Don't blurt out any old shit and back-peddle later, that's worst than lying. At least lying has some awareness.

Just to name a few.

I started with this list and told myself that I am going to apply corrective actions the next chance
I got.

Sure enough my BS calls me in the morning (I stayed at a Bed and Breakfast close by), pissed, tired and tells me to get my ass back home and take care of the baby. I am awake but still groggy, she asks me if I'm awake. I say yes, I tell her I will be there after I shower and check-out. She starts going at me about needing to shower, I start to back-peddle and say I don't need one, because she is getting really aggressive (from my perspective). I stop myself with the back-peddling and say, I need a shower. It was hot in the room last night and I need to wake myself up so that I can be aware and not just a zombie. She hangs up, pissed. I take my shower, I get my coffee and I text my BS saying I
want to help and if you want me there, if you can tolerate my presence, then I can be there ASAP.

So I considered her anger, her pain and knew she might want to just kill me if she saw me so I acknowledged that. Some time later she calls me and tells me to come over. I go ASAP back home, from the fire and into the frying pan. Its tense, its angry, its aggressive, but I stay calm. I couldn't reduce the tension, but I did not add. Insults came, I didn't add, I just saw the hurt and the pain and said to myself, "I did this, I made her hate me". I got through the day one chore after another, and as I put my daughter down for a nap, my BS said I had helped and she could tell I was not angry doing it. Fucking A, I got it right once.

So I see now that my BS is hypersensitive to my aggression level, so I really have to be at peace in order to pull it off, I can't just hide my resentment. It has to not exist. I have to be genuine.

Thanks for the help so far posters.

Wario

Having a better New Year



Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)

I stop myself with the back-peddling and say, I need a shower. It was hot in the room last night and I need to wake myself up so that I can be aware and not just a zombie. She hangs up, pissed. I take my shower, I get my coffee and I text my BS saying I
want to help and if you want me there, if you can tolerate my presence, then I can be there ASAP.

So I considered her anger, her pain and knew she might want to just kill me if she saw me so I acknowledged that. Some time later she calls me and tells me to come over. I go ASAP back home, from the fire and into the frying pan. Its tense, its angry, its aggressive, but I stay calm. I couldn't reduce the tension, but I did not add. Insults came, I didn't add, I just saw the hurt and the pain and said to myself, "I did this, I made her hate me". I got through the day one chore after another, and as I put my daughter down for a nap, my BS said I had helped and she could tell I was not angry doing it. Fucking A, I got it right once.

Wow, just wow.
That sure is some mighty fine progress right there!
Keep at it, you're doing well.

Fucking A, I got it right once

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You need to be mindful of this though. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Overall excellent job!

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 8:20 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 8:26 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)

I put my daughter down for a nap, my BS said I had helped and she could tell I was not angry doing it.
If you haven''t already done so I''d thank your BS for her acknowledgment.
Keep it up.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4000 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

wario, I am not quoting anything from your last post, because all of it was fantastic!! Great job!

One question - how did it feel to know that you had such an effect on your BS, and that she told you that you had helped?

You're very focused on what makes you feel badly, in order to get to the bottom of your issues. I would think it is important to focus on what feels good, too?

Congrats on such a great breakthrough and the efforts you put into it. Really, great job.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

Thanks for the encouragement.

Yes SlowUptake, I'm not going to let it go to my head and slack off, thanks for the warning.
Thanks Brandon808 for the reminder to thank my BS for the feedback, I realize it takes a lot to
see the positive change. I did thank her after I read your suggestion.
And thanks for the encouragement painfulpast.

I got a chance to download the book suggested by 20WrongsVs1 called "Non-Violent Communication". I had my kindle read it to me on my drive to work. The first chapters opened my eyes to the situation I had created at home. I had made the home very Violent, it was not physically violent, but it was
aggressive. I think I gave off a resentful vibe and the stress from work just came off as anger.
I think my BS recognized that I did not have any anger or resentment doing things yesterday. However, I couldn't have done it without resentment, unless I had awareness and some sense of empathy for what was going on.

I hope things will improve as I become more aware and empathetic.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

I think my BS recognized that I did not have any anger or resentment doing things yesterday. However, I couldn't have done it without resentment, unless I had awareness and some sense of empathy for what was going on.

This is so good.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 7:50 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
Tesseract
Member
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)

That is awesome, wario! I'm really happy for you, man. The feeling of actually getting one in the win column is pretty amazing for everyone involved. Especially after all the pain. It's a great feeling to be there and helping and seeing the effects on our spouses. I can't think of a better feeling in the world. Consistency is hard, especially after a life time of habit.

One thing did jump out at me about your post though.

"1. No Boundaries. I have to be aware of my limits and say no, that is no to my work, no to my stupid ego, and No to my BS. Its not bad to say no, its actually kind.

2. Not standing up for myself. Stop saying Yes and resenting it later, goes with the above."

Comes across to me, especially since it's the first thing you thought of(?) as repressed anger issues. I honestly deal with them myself. I would be incredibly careful with these in your interactions with you wife. It can be a minefield.

The other four things you listed are spot on (and honestly, it feels like we have the same playbook). What you said about being genuine always really resonated with me. It's something I struggle with.

I hope tomorrow is even better for you.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 2:54 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

Anger and resentment are so hard to deal with. They can destroy whatever we do to reconcile. It is good that you are able to recognize those moments and step back and say I am angry. That gives us time to think things through and realize the possible outcomes for what we want to do next. In my case I do not blow up in rage but become cold and communicate without empathy. I need to step back as you have and tell myself that each time it happens. It is not easy but it does make a big difference. I am glad you are able to do it. Be safe that way and be free.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 4:03 AM, January 3rd (Friday)

1. No Boundaries. I have to be aware of my limits and say no, that is no to my work, no to my stupid ego, and No to my BS. Its not bad to say no, its actually kind.

2. Not standing up for myself. Stop saying Yes and resenting it later, goes with the above.

Comes across to me, especially since it's the first thing you thought of(?) as repressed anger issues

@Tesseract.

If I may.
Being a conflict avoider myself, I can relate.

@wario
Sure does build a lot of resentment doesn't it.
Does take a while to realise it's actually been your own fault all along.
One of the hardest things I've found to overcome was the saying 'Yes' to avoid the conflict.
It does get easier over time the more you say 'No'.
Just be careful you don't let the pendulum swing too far the other way, where you become a 'No' man all the time as opposed to 'Yes' man all the time.
I find that if I do a lot of compromise communication as in, "Yea sure no problem, but I'm busy today, how's about tomorrow". or "No I can't right now, but I can tomorrow", you get the drift.
(This was a great tool suggested to me by my B.S., she knows me so well)

Again your doing great.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 4:36 AM, January 3rd (Friday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, January 3rd (Friday)

Thanks again SlowUptake and Tessaract for checking in on me.

I agree with you grains, resentment and anger shatter any good that gets put forward.

Its been a pretty rough 24 hours. When I think I'm ahead, I am actually still in the frying pan
and it seems like its getting hotter. But I think it has to get that way because more honest and
genuine feelings are coming out for BS and I. Its so freaking draining, especially for my BS.
We spent like 4 hours talking today about. She was trying to explain to me how deeply hurt she is
and how much damage I have done. That there is no going back, our relationship is broken forever.

These are the kind of talks I used to try to avoid and spent so much energy fighting about. There
are so many times today that I misspoke but I tried not to back-peddle. To really listen and
to rephrase what she told me so I was sure I communicated to her that I got it. It was brutal
and at the end I'm not sure if we are going to make it. However, I told her that I wanted to
help, to not add to her pain, but to take some of that suffering away, even if it means we may be
divorced. That this, the listening and the good will comes with no strings attached.

At this point, I'm trying to show my BS remorse.I hope she believes me and grows to trust me, just a little more.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, January 4th (Saturday)

Today, I discovered that having the infidelities on my mind does not necessarily mean the day will
go to the dogs. I use to literally avoid the thought of my infidelities and when my BS would
bring it to mind or express to me that it was on her mind, I would retreat in fear, frustration,
anger and some resentment.

I guess what I was telling her is that I was dismissing it, minimizing it or invalidating her pain and suffering. Today, it came up as we had lunch and one of those awkward silent moments came up, she just told me it was on her mind. I took it in and just said calmly, "I'm sorry". No anger
no retreating. We then continued on.

Its getting easier to catch myself now, I'm becoming more aware of what is going on and I'm feeling the suffering my BS is trying to communicate to me.

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 10:27 PM, January 4th (Saturday)

Stay open to the journey. There are going to be lots of places where the path will try to split off and double back, or rocks will make the road uncomfortable to walk on, or you may have to hold your nose and wade through a stinking mud pit, but keep walking.

May I give you a small suggestion?

I took it in and just said calmly, "I''m sorry". No anger no retreating.

That''s good. Very good owning and acknowledging the moment and feeling. Let me suggest that the next time, you try this. Say why you''re sorry. Contrast the two responses.

one of those awkward silent moments came up, she just told me it was on her mind

You, #1: "I''m sorry."

You, #2: "I''m sorry that you have to think about it. I''m the one that caused those thoughts to be in your head and that''s unfair to you. Is there anything I can do for you is there anything that you need from me?"

Response #1 expresses an apology but also shuts the conversation down. Response #2 expresses a specific apology acknowledging your part in bringing the hurt to her, and leaves it open ended. That way she can continue to express her pain, if needed, she can ask you for something specific, or if her expressing that it was on her mind is all she needed, it validates her expression of pain.

I know that when my FWH expresses a specific apology and invites me into sharing, I find it more reassuring.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, January 4th (Saturday)

What Skan said X2


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, January 5th (Sunday)

Thanks Skan for that very helpful piece of advice.

As I said "I'm sorry" and sat with it, I thought "I caused all this, man she has to live with this
constantly. That sucks. I wish I hadn't been unfaithful." However, it just ended with the thoughts I couldn't put it into words yet. Thanks for helping me with the next step Skan.

I think I'm going to work on my communication skills with my IC and get past the awareness phase. Figure out what holds me back from saying something more, its probably fear that I'm going to say the wrong thing and it will all go south so fast. I guess I have to face that fear and move on so that I can do some healing.

Tomorrow I tell the guys at work I'm taking a couple of months off.

Wish me luck,

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Daisy1967
Member
Member # 41627
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, January 5th (Sunday)

Sweetness and light and magic fairy dust

[This message edited by Daisy1967 at 9:24 AM, January 6th (Monday)]


Posts: 70 | Registered: Dec 2013
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, January 5th (Sunday)

Seriously Daisy? How is that at all helpful?

Wario, going along with Skan, have you read How to help your spouse heal after your affair? It was very helpful for my husband to see that I needed specific apologies. I highly recommend it for that and with empathy.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, January 5th (Sunday)

Great advice Skan

I guess I have to face that fear and move on so that I can do some healing.

There is a lot of great awareness in that statement. Facing fear and trying to overcome it for healing is important no matter what side of the fence you are on (WS/BS)

Good luck tomorrow Wario


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Daisy1967
Member
Member # 41627
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, January 5th (Sunday)

Well, I hope it is not, if he really wants to R. But if my husband told me that every single facet of our marriage had been an utter failure, then I would really wonder if I should continue to try.
Kind of like a hamster spinning in wheel.

I understand that it is likely lashing out, but I take people at their word. I wonder too, if this BW is not trying to tell her WH that she is over the whole thing too.

It is a valid point.

[This message edited by Daisy1967 at 8:19 PM, January 5th (Sunday)]


Posts: 70 | Registered: Dec 2013
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 5:03 AM, January 6th (Monday)

Daisy,

You have a PM.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38093 | Registered: Sep 2007
Daisy1967
Member
Member # 41627
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, January 6th (Monday)

Thank you so much.

[This message edited by Daisy1967 at 11:50 AM, January 6th (Monday)]


Posts: 70 | Registered: Dec 2013
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 8:48 PM, January 6th (Monday)

Thanks for the book suggestion SamathaBaker. I actually did get my Kindle to read it to me on
the drive to work a few months ago. But I think I was in a different place when I was reading it. I'll take your suggestion and read it again or have the Kindle read it to me again.

Thanks for the support DixieD

@Daisy1967, I think in my case, my BS is trying to communicate her despair and disappointment,
which is a product of my actions (infidelity/lying). I choose to continue and try to help her heal because I am responsible for my actions and I do care about my hurt BS. You might
do something different completely different. To each their own.

I went to work today and explained my situation to the guys at work. They were pretty supportive.
They told me "Take care of your family, a couple of months shouldn't be a problem."

That takes a big load off my mind. Now comes the real challenge.

Wario



Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, January 7th (Tuesday)

I think today was a lesson in awareness, boundaries and communication (A-B-C), how about that?

For both myself and my BS. As I start tuning into my problems with my ABCs (with the help of my IC) I'm can also help my BS with her ABC issues as well. Maybe, just maybe we can help each other heal.

It's been so busy and crazy today. Short post but I think its important to note this.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:22 AM, January 9th (Thursday)

Posted yesterday on Tessaract's thread hoping I could help. I guess it didn't help. My BS read his post along with his BS's and drew a lot of similarities between what was going on and our situation. It kind of triggered my BS as well.

I can understand and did my fair share of anger, frustration, defensiveness and rationalization. No matter what people said on SI at the time, I was still angry but the key thing I did not see was that I was making it worse and hurting my
BS more and more each day. In my case it was the resentment I felt and buried inside my heart along with the triggering that was going inside me. My BS keeps asking, "What do you have to gain?" with respect to rationalizing and being defensive,
"You just made it worse all those years."

I was in that same place and it wasn't until my MC/IC started helping me dig into it did I begin to let go of My Story or what I call My Shit. He first confronted me firmly and told me that "Yes I have committed a very serious injury to my wife by i) being unfaithful first and ii) then lying about it after and then iii) by not fixing things with her."

He also saw understood my frustration and identified our cycle, although he wasn't the first MC to see it, he was the first to be committed enough to try to unravel it for us to see. In IC see revealed to me that I was triggering as well,
that I had a very important part to play in adding fuel to the fire. I thought that it was not my fault how bad my wife was triggering each time, that it was just her bad reaction. She was just misunderstanding me, that she doesn't get what
I'm trying to say and that it was her problem. I didn't see that I was invalidating her pain and suffering and that was what was making it worse. I yes, I too drove my wife nuts with my behavior.

On my side, I was triggering because I was being told that I am Nothing but a cheater. That I am horrible. Humans do not cheat so I do not deserve any human kindness. I am subhuman. I am doing nothing, all my work, effort, care, good will,
the low cost behaviors were nothing. That I am nothing. And that this message was reiterated in some part on SI as I posted by many members.

As I read the Non-Violent Communication book today, I realized that my IC is using a very non-violent form of communication in helping me understand what I did. He is communicating the same information but he has removed the judgement that triggers my inner child. My inner child has been told all life that I am not good enough, that I am nothing, and not human enough to be worthy of love. When I/my inner child hears all that moral judgement, basic wrongness or Violent Communication, I was defensive to protect myself,
it was instinctual and I was caught in my loop that I could not escape. So I defended, rationalized, felt misunderstood, got
frustrated and angry, thus hurting my BS more.

It was only until New Years did I start to drop My Story because I identified finally that it was not helpful. I am so sorry that it took me so long to figure it out and face it.

Just like the perfect storm, all the pieces kind of fell into place around New Year's Eve or you can see it as it all fell apart. All the stress, all the problems, all the therapy (MC/IC) and all the help on SI. I'm seeing things now for what they are. I am finding out who I am and what I've done, I'm healing my inner child, not ignoring him and I'm learning Non-Violence. The journey continues.

Thank you ALL for your posts.

Wario

"Be the change you wish to see in the world", M.K.Ghandi

[This message edited by wario at 1:13 AM, January 17th (Friday)]


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, January 10th (Friday)

So I told my team at work today about my leave from work. It will actually start in February and will spend the rest of the month tying up loose ends. After that its minimal support for a couple of months. They support me knowing that they will have to work a lot harder and pick up the slack.

Exercised my boundaries today by putting in time to read my book on non-violent communication on my morning drive. By saying yes to reading the book, it meant saying No to talking with my Nephew on my drive. My teenage nephew is very close to me and I spent my drives both to and from work talking to him recently. This was also to help support my sister-in-law who is a single mom. Its hard to say no to them, but I realized I do need the time to read because it really does help. However, on my drive home now when I talk to my nephew, I feel I am listening more and can respond to him better.

I find in general I am listening more to those around me and saying less. Trying to observe and try not to pass judgement as the book tries to teach is difficult for me. I observed that almost everything I say seems pretty judgmental. So for now I am trying to say less, and think less judgmentally before I speak. It is amazing how powerful words can be. They can harm so much if we choose to use harmful/violent language. I guess this book is trying to teach us to be at least be non violent or not harmful with our words so as to add less violence in the world. I think eventually I will need to learn to use my words in a more kind and loving way, I think that's where the empathy and compassion come in. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

For now another day, another lesson.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, January 11th (Saturday)

Just woke up after putting my baby girl to sleep. My BS and I went to MC today, what a heavy session. We tried to unpack the issue of Valentine's Day today. Valentine's Day is a loaded issue because almost 20 years ago, when I was a student in university, I cheated on my BS who was my girlfriend at the time. After spending Valentine's Day with her in one city, I had to return to another city where I was working. On my return trip, in my loneliness I started making plans to date another girl I had met. I kept this fact from her throughout the years and revealed it to her in detail in my confession which was almost 5 years ago. So Valentine's Day is now
sullied by my unfaithfulness, perhaps forever. One of the things my BS wants me to fix during this leave of absence is Valentine's Day, or to somehow clean it up.

If anyone is still reading, my question is, "How have you or your WS cleaned up a trigger event/date, such as this?" "What are your experiences?" "What has helped?" "As a BS does the trigger lessen and go away as you heal or do
you just don't go there anymore?"

We are trying to explore this in MC and I think it was the first time I really got to see with my eyes and feel how much I had hurt my BS. I hurt her so much and she's still hurting now as she talks about it and that's 20 years ago. I honestly don't know I can make this better, I can't undo this. What am I going to do? What is she going to do?

So many questions. So many feelings. But I'm still going to try to figure this out.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 7:14 AM, January 11th (Saturday)

My anniversary is also my antiversary. The timeline is this: my WH came back from a work weekend with his COW and he was in a strange state. I knew something was wrong. We had already booked a meal at a place I'd been dying to try -- the kind of place where you have to book a month or more in advance. I just remember the meal as very weird -- we were talking but he wasn't "there". On the way he asked me point-blank what I'd do if I found out he was having an affair.

This was all part of what we now call his psychotic break period. He says he doesn't remember that quetsion re what would you do at all. He really was in some kind of strange altered state and it led up to his confession a few days later. (Anniversary is the 27th, DD was the 1st.)

In any case, you can see that the anniversary is a tough period for me. Moreover, it was our 25th, and we had always talked about doing a big party for our 25th. Clearly that wasn't on the table. So what did we do? Essentially, something totally different -- complete break with the past. WH booked a hotel, hired a sitter, and we went "away" -- actually, just downtown, but given that we have kids, we don't often have opportunities to just wander around the city. Booked into the hotel, drank champagne, had sex, laid about. Got dressed, went out, put our name down at yet another restaurant I'd been keen to try and then walked around, enjoying the city while waiting for our table. And we had a great meal, went back to hotel, had more sex... yadda yadda yadda...

Now, all of that is very individual. This is the kind of thing *I* enjoy. You know your wife (or ought to) and you know what kind of thing she's always wanted to do on VD. Make it happen. Something different and special. Rose petals on the bed -- whatever. Go all out. What have you got to lose? But I think the key thing here is 1) attention to what SHE wants and 2) doing something totally different.

Good luck.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1061 | Registered: Aug 2012
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

Thanks for the advice Blobette. I think I really need to listen and understand the trigger. I'm going to unpack it further in my IC and figure out what she needs me to do to clean up this trigger.

Thanks, I'm going to move this to a new thread for better visibility, thanks for still reading.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)

Very rough night, just got up from putting my toddler to sleep.

I came home from an IC session where I had tried to unpack my infidelities back in 1995. I shared with my therapist who is my MC as well how I had been trying to recall my emotional state back when I was in my early 20s over this weekend. It was incredible how naive, oblvious and resentful
I was. My life was a mess back then as well, it just sort of continued that way as I finished school. So much compartmentalization, so unaware of who I was and the damage I was causing around me, so much denial of myself and a complete lack of boundaries and self-respect. I realized I had no business being in a relationship back then, hell I didn't even like myself, how could I expect someone else to like me or for me to even care about another other than on a very superficial level. Just clueless. I've pretty much
tried to pack that young Wario away, deny the existence of him along with all the pain I caused my BS.

Fast-forward to tonight, I'm talking to me BS about running away from all this cold weather to the Caribbean for Valentine's day, of course we are going to have to bring our toddler. That is what she really enjoys, the warm weather, the beach, the sun, the drinks, the food, etc. Then it goes south as she tells me I'm using my daughter to fix my mistakes by making Valentine's into a family vacation. Its supposed to be about us, not about family. That you can't go back, that "You just don't do what you did". At that point I realized, she's triggered about talking about the cleaning up the trigger (Valentine's Day).

Time to be aware of what you are doing and saying. Use non-violent communication, non-judgemental observations and try to understand what she is trying to communicate to me. It is different now, because when I'm calm in the midst of the shitstorm, I can see the anger, the verbal jabs for what they are, its the pain that I caused, the consequences of my cheating and dishonesty. I wish I could just hold her and tell her everything is going to be okay (like I do for my daughter) but I can't do that yet, she's still just too angry. I can just say I'm sorry and not try to add to the suffering.

I'm not sure if we are going to make it even to day 1 of the 100 days. Very discouraged, its even more so when you are giving it your all and you still flop. Hope tomorrow is a better day.

Trying to be the change I want to see in my world.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 5:22 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)

Try not to be discouraged.
This is a long road and you have a way's to go yet.

I wish I could just hold her and tell her everything is going to be okay (like I do for my daughter) but I can't do that yet, she's still just too angry.

I had a huge issue with this as well for way too long a time. The conflict avoider in me thought that if I hug her while she's angry it will just make it worse.
I was wrong, one day I decided I had nothing to loose, so while she was spewing vitriol at me, I got up went to her, held her and apologised. To my utter amazement it didn't get worse, it got better.
Word of caution, it doesn't always have the desired effect, steel yourself for the occasional rejection. But keep doing it.

I think your doing quite well wario.
Keep at it.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 6:12 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)

Good job on keeping up with your posting, wario.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17862 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
disgracetoh.race
Member
Member # 33491
Default  Posted: 6:17 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)

Dear Wario,
I have read this thread with an interest, because I consider myself in more less the same situation.
Quite few things that have been said here helped me understand the absence of empathy in my case and problems that it can cause.
But, that is not the reason why I decided to post.
I think you should continue doing what you are doing. There were so many times in my 3 years I thought I’m not going to make it, it is too much, it has gone over the board, and in those moments I would lose hope, I would do or say something stupid.
The moment would pass, but the words or deeds I’ve done will stay there forever.
Either way it goes, there is always light after dark, and dark after light. I know it sounds artificial from somebody that does not know how to help his wife, that you must continue trying, but I know this is a good advice although I am not capable to live by it by myself.
Good luck.


WH 50 years
BS 48 years
Married 24 years
Son 16 years
DD 1 - 15.11.10
DD2 - 18.2.11
DD3 - 25.4.11
Desperately trying to hang in tiny space left for me. Sober since DD1, no relapses, not even close.

Posts: 100 | Registered: Sep 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:04 AM, January 15th (Wednesday)

Thanks SlowUptake, Jrazz and disgracetoh.race for the encouragement. How do you handle with the Triggers and the anger from your BS or as a
BS?

It's been a rough day, I guess there have been worse in the past. It's just that now that I am calmer, I can look at it a little more objectively and see more despair in the situation. I know I am changing my behavior and reaction to triggering but the outcome is the same. So frustrating.

Today, as I was trying to talk with my BS as calmly and non-violently as I could, I did not seem to help at all. She even told me I was being aggressive. I think I was pissing her off by saying, "Okay that's an opinion", or "That's a judgement", or "That's a conclusion" before telling her what I was hearing from her. I was hoping that in trying to listen and get what she was saying it would help, but it didn't. So frustrating, so I silently identified the parts of the communication that were helpful and not. There were a couple of times I just had to walk away for a few minutes. I hid in the closet and just tried to let the frustration pass and not let it become anger. I went to the bathroom and literally banged my head against the wall, just trying to knock the anger out of myself and calm down. I was getting caught in the anger, it was so hard to remain grounded. I was so stressed out, because I was supposed to be working from home, not spending my time in verbal conflict with an angry wife. But it is what it is, that is what I have earned with my infidelities and dishonesty. I tried my best to remain calm for the most part, try to be understanding, tried to listen. I don't
think I said anything hurtful, but it is a bad situation nonetheless.

Trying not to bite the hook. (reference to Pema Chodron's book on anger). Thanks again for reading and commenting.

Wario

[This message edited by wario at 3:06 AM, January 15th (Wednesday)]


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 4:33 AM, January 15th (Wednesday)

I don't get your anger, well I do but the only time I felt it was when I was trying so hard to run from my actions and xSO would shine the light on them. I would get mad and close my eyes and breath telling myself you caused this who are you really mad at. Our arguments/talks were ridiculous at times, would last literally hours. It got to the point that when we talked we each would let the other talk and write notes. Sounds silly but it was the only way to keep our thoughts in order and address everything the other person was saying.

Good job on continuing to post and grow.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2762 | Registered: Oct 2012
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 4:17 AM, January 16th (Thursday)

Thanks for the comment Unagie. I guess this gives me a chance to clarify to myself what I am angry about.

By the way things have since calmed down a little, the tension level at home has reduced. OK, I'm going to rewind to yesterday afternoon. I was feeling frustrated, misunderstood, stressed and fearful of the situation (I didn't like where it was going). I am also aware that my BS is feeling angry as well and expressing it very aggressively (she doesn't like the situation as well). The overall feeling is a building up of anger (for both of us), for me its probably associated with the failure of the situation. There is nothing wrong with being angry for both of us, I'm not angry at anybody, I am just feeling angry, its just a feeling, its about the situation but it will pass, sometimes its a short time, sometimes its a lot longer. What I needed to do was make sure I didn't do anything negative out of anger or to lash out. The other thing I find is that it is easy when I start getting angry to bring up my Story, that is the defensive bullshit, the victimizing of myself, this isn't helpful and it just builds up the anger very quickly to a level where it is unmanageable and it becomes inevitable that I lash out. That is why I am trying to be aware of my anger, acknowledge it and feel it for a moment (hopefully only a moment) and drop my Story. Go back and try to address my lack of understanding, communication or alleviate my stress and fear, that is to fix my situation and hence the situation for my BS as well. I think that is the approach that seems to be working for me. Taking the higher road would be to transform that anger through awareness and show empathy for the suffering we are both under. I guess I'm still struggling.

Unagie, sounds like you have an agreed upon structure for communication. That's good but we aren't there yet, at least not when Triggering is happening, I guess that is something to address in MC.

Once again, thanks for the comments.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, January 16th (Thursday)

Just popping in for a little support for you wario!

(((((hugs)))))


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Tesseract
Member
Member # 39624
Default  Posted: 7:31 PM, January 16th (Thursday)

Hi, wario. I wish I had some advice or even helpful information to offer you. I will say that your post in my thread was helpful and I am appreciative of it. When you first started this thread my wife triggered off of the similarities as well.

I'm going to order than anger book you mentioned. What you were going through during that trigger was pretty similar to how I've felt more times than I would care to say even if I could count them up.

Hope you're having a good evening. Take care of yourself.


Posts: 55 | Registered: Jun 2013
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 12:49 AM, January 17th (Friday)

Thanks painfulpast and Tesseract for the support.

It has been a tough couple of days with this last trigger, seems to have returned to calm. I see that I am handling Triggers very differently now. I used to really feel fearful of them. I focused so much on not doing the "thing" that would mess up "my world", I guess I communicated a very defensive "vibe", one where I was ready to justify my actions. I followed orders and didn't make any decisions at home on my own for fear of causing a Trigger in my BS. This made for a very tense situation, it was stressful and gave my BS even more reason not to trust me. It must have felt very dismissive, dishonest and just plain unloving to her how I was conducting myself around her. Like she was a bomb ready to explode. Nobody want's to be treated like that, I no longer want to live like that, it stressed us both out and probably drove us both crazy at times.

Now I see Triggers for what they are. Negative reactions due to the history I have created for my BS. They are a product of my cheating/lying and the way I dealt with it afterward. However, they are also a product of the world around us, from what I see, I can't control them, I can't keep them from arising. I have to deal with them as they come and not deny that they are happening so that I can keep my world clean and trouble-free. As a conflict-avoider, that is exactly what I did for the past 6 years. Now with some awareness, some empathy developing and some better communication skills, I'm learning to "ride" the Trigger and help to ease our suffering as it rolls through our lives. I still suffer a lot through them but now my BS is not alone in her suffering through the Triggers. Its the shit from my cheating and dishonesty, I am going to try to clean it up now rather than run away and call it roses.

Not doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. (the inverse of Einstein's qoute)

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 5:11 AM, January 18th (Saturday)

I'm reading 1bigidiot79's thread on lying. This is a copy of what I'm posting on his thread.

I lied to my wife for years to protect myself, my idea of the relationship, basically my world. I did it because that was what I knew and I ignored the thought of the consequences and the harm it did to my BS and my soul. As my wife questioned me throughout our relationship the burden of lying just got snowballed, with time I could not bear this burden and eventually told her the truth slowly TT-style. Now we have to deal with the truth, the betrayal and how to live knowing you can't go back.

Lying is not easier than telling the truth. Its easier to tell the truth because you don't have to fabricate or hide anything. Its a protection mechanism that doesn't work when you are in a relationship with someone. Ironically, I don't lie now, because its easier, because I don't want to harm those around me. I realize now that the safest thing for me is to have people around me that I trust and who trust me.

Anyhow that is my two cents,


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, January 18th (Saturday)

Exactly. When you tell the truth, there is one and only one story. When you tell a lie to one person, now you have two stories. Tell a different version to another person, there''s three stories.

I am TOO OLD to keep up on all of the stories, KWIM? Hell, I have a problem figuring out where I left my car keys most of the time! So telling the truth, to all people at all times, is just plain selfishly, the simplest.

With a few "I don''t want/feel comfortable discussing that''s" thrown in.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 12:07 AM, January 19th (Sunday)

Today was a good day. We spent some time together and really enjoyed each other's company. Things are starting to change. Its like a positive feedback loop, as I've started to change my behavior, my BS too has changed her behavior towards me. As I let go of my anger, so too does she. But I'm not going to backslide, this good will comes with a lot of effort for both of us, I'm going to enjoy it and work for tomorrow and the day after and so on.

Trying to be the change I want to see in my world,

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, January 20th (Monday)

As I lurk on SI, I realize that lying is pretty prevalent behavior by both WS and BS's as well. Each of us use lying to protect our world and our egos or to keep themselves from further harm. We believe what we want to believe, be it that we convince we ourselves we get it or are changing when we clearly are not (like me for the past 6 years). Or we convince ourselves, that the WS will never change because of fear of further harm. Or we convince ourselves, that our WS has gotten it and all is well.

As I've experienced in my MC, these are all distortions of the truth (lies we tell ourselves). In my MC sessions, my MC spends a lot of effort trying to remove the distortions and present what is actually going on to both of us. I find that as the WS, I had to become more honest and show real change first, because I was the one that broke the trust and deceived. Once some real honesty is shown, I think it becomes easier for my BS to open up to me and share her vulnerabilities thereby healing as I've seen over the course of this week. We realize we both need to change a lot but we can do it together, for ourselves, for each other and for our daughter.

It takes a lot of work to learn to look at one's situation honestly (without distortion for protection) make our choices thoughtfully and not resent it later. I'm still struggling with this, but it is getting easier. I hope my BS continues to remain open as I go on this journey.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Nitrobob
Member
Member # 42021
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, January 20th (Monday)

As a man whose wife had at least three and maybe four affairs before I caught on, I can give you some input into what you need to do for your wife.

The problem is that you need to show remorse proportionate to your BS's pain, and that is virtually impossible to do. Weeping and begging forgiveness would help, but we men don't do that well. You have to make it up with volume if you can't manage the intensity. Admit you did a terrible hurtful thing, betrayed the confidence of someone you loved, and beg her to give you a chance to make it up to her. Don't say you made a mistake...that's making a left instead of a right turn. You made thousands of individual poor judgements that may have ruined someone else's life. Own it, over and over. You will get through to her if you are sincere.


Me 50 WW 40, 3PA, 1EA over single summer 7/13-9/13, DDay 10/13
M 9 years,together 12, in R mode

James Russell Lowell — 'Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this, that you are dreadfully like other people.'


Posts: 135 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Midwest
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:10 AM, January 21st (Tuesday)

Thanks nitrobob, for the candid and the straight advice. Thanks for still reading on.
I get what your are saying. I realize that the level of hurt I inflicted, you can't just show proportionate remorse in a short amount of time and its all good. Its that consistent pattern of remorse that she is looking for. Its not the saying I'm sorry and begging for forgiveness that she is looking for, although it does help but it's not enough for my BS. Thanks for telling me not to just call it a mistake. Like you said people make mistakes all the time, this is so much heavier, the word I guess kinda lessens it (is that what you were getting at nitrobob?).

Trying to change my pattern, but its so hard and trying to do it anyways.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
dindy
Member
Member # 38424
Default  Posted: 4:15 AM, January 21st (Tuesday)

Wario I read this thread last night and I just wanted to wish you good luck.

Without sounding bad and I mean no offence, I can see already how much your thinking has changed and how you are starting to own your shit.

My ex never came close to changing his way of thinking and we are S because of it.

I wish you well in continuing to work towards healing your W and yourself, and your journey towards R.



Posts: 459 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: uk
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:47 AM, January 23rd (Thursday)

Thanks dindy for the encouragement and reading through this post. I hope that my BS can begin to see the changes in my behavior and attitude, not just in my posts but as we interact together at home.

I took a couple of days off from reading the Non-Violent Communication book, things were a little busy lately at home and I did not have the mindshare on my morning drive to work to do it. Anyhow, I was reading the chapter on "Taking Responsibility for my Feelings". For me its pretty mind-blowing stuff, so many times when I'm reading this book, I say to myself, "I always do exactly that", but now I know why and now I what I can do instead and why. He explains the higher road, and why to take it. And it seems to apply everyone around me, not just my BS but my nephew, my sister-in-law, co-workers, and my nanny. I'm learning to listen to what they say, and not take in all the negativity but to understand their feelings and needs. I think its the most obvious with my toddler, she doesn't use language yet but she yells and cries and uses gestures to communicate that she needs something, each time I have to figure it out, I usually figure it out (eventually), but the important thing as a parent is that I try. You would think that with language, it should be more effective, but we don't communicate what we are feeling or what we need, we warp it with judgments, criticisms, conclusions, negativity, aggression and outright deception so that the message just doesn't get through or is so twisted. I'm glad I am taking the time now to learning this so I can change my behavior and make things different.

Its a rough journey but I'm doing it anyways.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Cool  Posted: 6:47 PM, January 23rd (Thursday)

Sounds like you''re liking the NVC book, I recommended it because it honestly changed my life, and IMO should be required reading for every human. We''re all about *feelings* in our household lately, and after a brief adjustment period (to "the new Mom" the kids have really taken to it! My 9-year-old said it helped him deal with a kid at school who was teasing him. That was a deeply gratifying parenting moment!

we don''t communicate what we are feeling or what we need, we warp it with judgments, criticisms, conclusions, negativity, aggression and outright deception

Taking a moment to identify what we''re feeling, and to listen for the feelings behind the other person''s words, before we react...it''s a powerful thing. Case in point Antoinette Tuff, who empathized with a man who walked into her elementary school last August armed to the teeth, and as a result of her caring and concern...he surrendered peacefully.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, January 24th (Friday)

Thanks for suggesting the book 20WrongVs1 I think it is changing my world or at least the way I
interact with those around me. I feel a lot less angry, I'm calmer and if I do start
getting pissed, I take that moment, own that feeling and try to understand where it is coming from and try to rectify it through non-violent communication. I also using non-violent communication to establish healthy boundaries for myself. Its like my poor communication skills were a manifestation of how screwed up I was (FOO issues)and I kept screwing myself in life by not communicating effectively with those around me and even with myself. I couldn't make my life better.

Once again, thanks for the book suggestion and the encouragement 20WrongVs1.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, January 24th (Friday)

Communicating feelings is a hard one, frankly. Because it''s really hard to truly understand what someone *means* when they say they feel *X*. Just because you both use the same words, doesn''t mean that you both mean the same thing by them.

Take the question, how do you feel, and the response, I feel happy

To you, happy may be feelings about thank GOD that I''m home, the traffic was horrible, some jerk cut me off on the onramp, I had to make a stop at the grocery store and it was full of dithering people, I woulda got gas but the line was so long that I''ll get up early and go get it before work tomorrow, my feet hurt, and I just want to sit my rear end down and put my feet up and zone out for an hour.

To her, happy may be feelings about oh good, now we can all sit down and have dinner together as a family, DD has that great science report that she can show her dad, it''s so nice to have an adult home to talk to rather than just kids, I can''t wait to show him the new bedspread I got for our room, and I have a DVD that we all can watch together after dinner.

You both feel happy, but your respective happys are going to be butting heads in no time at all. And indeed you both ARE happy that you are home, but the emotion, the meaning, is quite different. Same word, different meanings.

MC was a great help to us to start listening to each other but it didn''t exactly help us with the emotional part of describing our feelings. We ended up going to a Retrouvaille weekend after hearing about it from several people here, and it was, and continues to be, SO much help to us! Perhaps that might be something that you and your BW might consider. I believe that Aubry went, so if you wanted to PM a WW to ask about their experience with it, I''m sure that Aubry could talk to you.

Keep up the good work!


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 5:47 PM, January 26th (Sunday)

Thanks Skan for reading on and your comments on communication.

I think that lately, I've been able to communicate more genuinely with my BS and I think it has provided a more trusting environment than before. Before, I was very frustrated, and thought I was being misunderstood constantly and and always trying to defend myself. I now realize I was making my environment extremely hostile for my BS, and this makes it harder to build any level of trust. This continued for years, renewed with each trigger and my reactions. Pretty sad when I look back at it. I found that improving my communication helped because in order to do it effectively, I had to become aware of my feelings, my story and to be compassionate towards my BS.

We actually did go to Retrouvaille a few years ago. I don't think we were both ready for it. It allowed us to spend time together, it taught us to write our feelings out. But I think we had much deeper issues to address along with our communication problems. Just being able to understand our feelings and forgiving and forgetting the past was not going to do it. In our group there was a couple dealing with infidelity but they were tackled from a very Christian approach. That is the husband expressed openly how sorry he was, the good wife forgave him because that is what Jesus would do and they would go on for the good of the family unit. You could tell she said she forgave him, but she was so pissed after all those years. Because its hard, she can't just swallow it and no amount of group therapy is going to make it easier.

For us we needed to go to MC so we could unpack those bad memories and realize we both need to rebuild our relationship. I find that we need a good MC to be able to keep us on track so that the discussions didn't become finger-pointing sessions.

I don't know how it is going to turn out, I hope it works out for us.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, January 28th (Tuesday)

Its been getting harder to post lately, it seems so busy with work, taking care of our toddler, dealing with extended family, nanny problems, etc. Its hard to get some time in to even read. At least I'm aware of it, have to put in some time tomorrow to read. I know I am letting my BS down in this area, I feel angry at myself, frustrated that there is so much to do. I guess that is how I get resentful. I guess this is my cycle, but this time, I'm aware of it and will take responsibility for slacking off in this department. I guess that is where honesty comes in, and self-compassion.

Trying to find time to be the change I want to see in my world.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, January 28th (Tuesday)

How about setting an alarm on your cell phone to go off at a certain time each day. And at that time, no matter what you''re doing, you set the other stuff down and post. Or carry a little notebook with you and as thoughts come up, write them down and a bit about how they came about. Then use those thoughts as a springboard to posting.

It''s when things get hard that you have the greatest opportunity to show your commitment.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:26 AM, January 29th (Wednesday)

Thanks for the advice Skan, and thanks for checking in me.

I've been reading grain's thread on Resentment. It forced me to take a look at my own. So I Started looking more deeply into resentment today.

I started with the wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resentment

Then read a reference by Stonsy

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200806/emotional-abuse-is-your-relationship-headed-there-you-might

The very technical definition of resentment states that Resentment is inline with contempt and anger. However resentment is directed towards higher-status individuals, anger is directed towards equal-status individuals and contempt is directed towards lower-status individuals. When the person feeling resentment is directing the emotion at himself or herself, it appears as remorse.

The idea that it is anger directed at someone higher in status or in a position of power is interesting to me. I very much thought my BS was at a higher level and I thought I was inferior throughout our relationship. Adding infidelity into the relationship just cemented that situation and perception. Many times I did not voice my discontent, or felt pressured into decisions I thought were not mine to make. This goes back to my issues with my mom and the racism and bullying I endured when I was growing up. For me, the inferiority, powerlessness and humiliation were very strong, at the time they did not feel like mere perceptions but were openly communicated to me by the offending parties (i.e. Mom, kids at school, my BS).

The wikipedia article mentions that resentment can result from a variety of situations, involving an actual or perceived wrongdoing from an individual, and often are sparked by expressions of injustice or humiliation. Common sources of resentment include publicly humiliating incidents such as accepting negative treatment without voicing any protest, an object of regular discrimination or prejudice. Resentment can also be generated by dyadic interactions, such as emotional rejection or denial by another person, deliberate embarrassment or belittling by another person, or ignorance, putting down, or scorn by another person.

Stonsy's article on resentment describes it as a "Chain" with links that add on each time we feel wronged. The metaphor of a chain is a good one as the weight builds with each link and the fact that it ties you down. I guess the way to deliver oneself from the resentment would be to follow the chain to the source and cut it, to let it go. All he hurt, all the bitterness has to be emptied from my heart to make room for love and kindness for me and to my BS.

I'm going to sit with this awhile.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 12:12 AM, January 30th (Thursday)

Just read a good article on releasing resentment from the tinybuddha.com. I found that the author's description of her experience with resentment was so close to mine.

Here is an abridged version on the article by Sarah Louise Gess. I cut the parts out that I wanted to highlight, no offence to the author.
(http://tinybuddha.com/blog/how-to-release-and-prevent-resentment-in-your-relationships/)
----------------------------------------------
We often experience resentment toward other people when we find it hard to forgive them and hold onto unspoken pain. Whenever we feel we’ve been treated unfairly, judged, or wronged, we have a very powerful internal reaction. The emotions we experience are strong. We feel them intensely and deeply, because they challenge us to reassess the self-image we hold of ourselves. The unexpressed painful emotions we experience as a result of
other peoples’ actions have the potential to transform into resentment if they are not released in a healthy, effective, and timely way.

Resentment lives inside us, feeding on our negative feelings and emotions. It becomes stronger the longer it is ignored. It can mutate and develop into a warped veil, which prevents us from seeing the world from a healthy, balanced perspective. If left unresolved, resentment has the power to be all consuming, and is very effective at fueling anger. In turn, unexpressed, internalized anger is a ticking time-bomb which
can lead to abusive or self-destructive behavior, or a combination of both.

Resentment is a very personal and private emotion, as it has almost no effect on the person it is directed towards. It resides with its owner, and causes negativity and pain.

Given a conducive set of circumstances and enough time, I can experience resentment on a powerful scale. I believe this is, in part, rooted in my formative years. I was brought up in a home where expressing strong, “negative” emotions was prohibited. I grew up believing it was unacceptable to express hurt, disappointment, frustration, or anger toward the people who evoked these very emotions in me. By the time I reached my teen years, I had unwittingly yet wholeheartedly perfected the internalization of painful emotions.

Resentment had found a comfortable home inside me, neighbored by my reluctance and fear of expressing myself. Whenever anyone hurt me, intentionally or otherwise, I would simply deny my emotions by storing them in a box inside me labelled “deal with this later.” However, later never came. What did come was resentment toward the people who’d hurt me—that and anger. At the time, I saw this as a kind of pay-off. “If I keep my feelings
hidden and unexpressed, then I don’t have to risk jeopardizing the quality of my relationship with this person." In truth, I was terrified of rejection. This fear fueled my reluctance to express my pain to the people who’d hurt me. Ultimately, the person who I ended up hurting the most was me.

After years of denying myself the full spectrum of my emotions, I resented anyone who stirred powerful, “negative” feelings inside me. My resentment toward others was intrinsically linked to my own inability to express painful emotions.

Looking back, I feel that if I had expressed myself more truthfully, I would not have clung so desperately to the resentment and anger. I also believe I would have welcomed forgiveness and been able to enjoy closer relationships with others more readily.

The take-home message is:

1. When someone hurts us, intentionally or accidentally, we have a responsibility to ourselves to express our pain. This needn’t be self indulgent or pitiful, but an understanding that it is our right to express that pain in an effective, healthy manner which helps us to let go and move forward. The next time you experience a strong emotion such as fear, hurt, disappointment, anger, fury, or panic, try using this simple mantra:

“Right now I feel (INSERT EMOTION). I give myself permission to feel (INSERT EMOTION) because I have a right to express myself and my emotions.”

When we stop trying to control our feelings, and start embracing the colorful way in which our hearts communicate with us, life begins to teach us our most important lessons.

2. The next time someone’s actions hurt you, try telling them how you feel. For example, “When you raise your voice, I feel scared and disrespected,” or “When you ignore me, it makes me feel unappreciated.” Choose the right words to convey your feelings. Try to express yourself from a calm and balanced frame of mind. Your words will have more effect if you are able to express them from a strong, healthy standpoint.
--------------------------------------

In the past I felt that as a WS I could not express my pain and emotions, healthy or not. I heard "How dare you get upset, you are the one who cause all this pain! You got no right to be upset." But I was, I felt so belittled, humiliated, rejected and I just further compartmentalized this with no hope of releasing it in a healthy manner. The resentment just poisoned the space around me. I am just learning now to communicate with myself about my feelings so I do not pollute the space around me, for my BS and for my daughter. Learning compassion begins with being compassionate for oneself, its not self-indulgent, its a necessary step and a responsibility.

Struggling with the Man-In-the-Mirror (Micheal Jackson)

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, January 30th (Thursday)

wario, the changes I see in your posts are very inspiring. Has your wife noticed and given positive feedback? I'm just curious. Regardless, good for you for really digging into yourself.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, January 30th (Thursday)

Many times I did not voice my discontent, or felt pressured into decisions I thought were not mine to make.

BTDT. What is giving me hope is when those situations come up, I confront them immediately and directly. Sounds like you're doing the same. Right away saying that you promised to post, and taking responsibility whenever you dip even a little bit. And then trying to understand why and how to fix it.

Maybe someday we will be at a point where we do not mess up. But for now, being vigilant with our own behaviors everything. Keep it up.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 633 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 7:29 PM, January 30th (Thursday)

I like the excerpt of the Resentment article so much that I sent it to my FWH. I think that I''ll be reading the entire article next.

I see parallels. I am very much a compartmented person. I am very much a cause me pain and I cut you out of my life person. Growing up, everyone that I know or knew, friends, family, acquaintances all left me. My mother is the only consistency that I have ... that and my FWH. He is the person that I have had the longest relationship with other than my mother, and it took him a few years before I trusted him fully. Part of our issues is that my very nature compels me to run away, to leave, to close him completely out of my life as if he never existed. That''s was and is my fight not to let fear DRIVE me away. We both have intense abandonment issues coming from completely different places. Trying to make our way back towards each other while dealing with these issues has been .. challenging.

So I am looking forward to reading the full article. Keep up the good work! And thanks for the link.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4949 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, February 1st (Saturday)

Its been a couple of days since I last post. I know at times I let the posts slip but I'm trying to be consistent. I find my best time to post is in the middle of the night, its nice and quiet but lately my daughter has been a little more unsettled at night so I couldn't do it. I did tell my BS that I was aware of not getting to post and she was understanding (I hope).

@painfullast. I'm not sure about my wife giving me positive feedback. Its not negative and that's a good thing. I think she is keeping an open mind. From my perspective, I have to do this more for myself.

@somethingremorse. Not standing up for myself was a lifelong problem. Its like I was programmed with a pattern for resentment. The way I saw the world, the way I responded to the world. The article on tinybuddha.com let me see how I had woven the fabric of my life so that I was resentful.

I read Trying33's posts on grains thread on resentment about how she needed her BH to recognized his contribution to her resentment. I think our partners take the brunt of our resentment. Resentment is interesting because it is anger but a variation of anger that operates due to hierarchy or levels. In a relationship where we have infidelity, that hierarchy is cemented by the betrayal, WS down, BS up. Because we chose the destructive path we will always be down, therefore we resent when we are angry. Did we with a resentful pattern do this on purpose because this is all we know? I think for me, that was the case. That is why I don't expect my BS to help me heal my resentment, it is part of me. If I can express how hurt I am when she expresses her contempt for me, that is more for me to recognize my resentment. Only I can cut the chain and not add in new links.

Just as I am posting, I am just getting into an argument with my BS about how I'm dropping the ball. Oh well, that's how the cycle goes. I'm going to stay aware and stick to non-violent communication.

Hope all goes well.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:42 AM, February 2nd (Sunday)

Its been a very hard day. My BS left tonight to stay in a hotel, she can't stand the sight of me. She's triggering pretty hard. I'm worried about her.

We had a very rough MC session today. I said some things in MC session that were taken very badly, the MC tried to help explain my perspective but nothing is getting through. She only saw it as minimizing and everything about the As just poured back out and she declared that there was to be no progress. That I got no right to be angry or resentful. That I'm not remorseful and that it is the same shit all over again. That I'm adding again to it all.

I'm pretty much saying nothing, because I know nothing is helping, just trying to cook and feed dinner to my daughter in the midst of this rant. Its like its going full steam without any inputs, like a runaway train. I wish I could say something to ease her pain, sorry just pisses her off more.

@painfulpast. In terms of feedback, my BS said my posts are pretty much bullshit. I'm pretty sure she's talking about the resentment stuff I posted. For me, those are my honest feelings that I'm trying to work out and lie at the heart of my infidelities and destructive behavior. I guess that is the double-edge of an open support forum, its open for help but its also open to cause pain (triggers).

Hanging in there.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:18 AM, February 3rd (Monday)

I'm realizing the enormity of my betrayal to my BS. I guess I never imagined I could hurt someone this much. There is so much pain there, it is blowing her mind away, literally. For my BS who loves my daughter so much that she has to leave because she cannot bear to be in the presence of her betrayer, me. Is it because I have no concept of love for another? How could I mean that much to someone else? Is it like hate on a murderous level? I think I need to figure this out in IC, going to schedule something sooner, than later.

To the BSs, is the pain of being in the presence of your WS, so extreme? That you cannot operate in their presence? What helped? Did the level of contempt/rage decrease with time? I guess I'm trying to figure out how to deal with her trigger/trauma.

Trying to figure this out.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 2:43 AM, February 3rd (Monday)

I'm sorry that both you and your BS are going through so much pain and confusion right now. I can only imagine it and will never know its depth. Always remember that the rage and anger of our BS is the expression of their suffering. It is important that we let go of being defensive and resentful. It is the hardest thing to do. You are the person who can be the best healer for your BS. Please hang in there. Things that you cannot understand now will become clear later. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
heforgotme
Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, February 3rd (Monday)

To the BSs, is the pain of being in the presence of your WS, so extreme? That you cannot operate in their presence?

At the beginning, I couldn't much function EXCEPT when he was around. Ironically, he was the only one who really made me feel better. He was the only one who truly knew what we had just lost as a result of this. He was really the only one who truly understood what I was going through (ironically again). I still do much better when he's home than when's he not. It's been very odd for me bc I've always been pretty independent.

As to the rage, for me it has definitely lessened with time. I still have the occasional meltdown, but it was 3 months between the last two. And I think the last one wasn't as intense.


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1083 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 1:11 AM, February 5th (Wednesday)

What a weekend? Thanks grains for your thoughts and prayers. Thanks heforgotme for the comments and perspective.

Things are pretty bad, its quiet at least. I think I'll start by cataloging the feelings. My
BS is back but I feel a very quiet angry emotion from her, a deep frustration and contempt. On my side, I'm feeling frustrated because I do not know what I can do to make it better. Is helplessness a feeling?

Yesterday night, I felt exhausted and the frustration turned to resentment. I wrote down what I was resentful about, cataloged it and then I realized it was more about my feelings of failure. That I cannot change the way my BS sees me and that I got to let that go. I can only change me. I tried to visualized her rage, contempt and violence, her triggers along with the difficult situation we are in as a huge curling wave. I know I played a big part in creating this wave, and that I'm swimming in it and its gonna crash onto me. I felt alone too. And I realize I gotta learn to surf this huge wave I call my life. I have to learn to surf instead of just getting smashed by this wave constantly. That is my intention and it made me feel better, lighter. Its calmer now, so I begin to reach out to my BS (action) but her silent anger is communicating to me that she wants me to stay away, that it is too late.

I'm still feeling frustrated now as I try to reach out to my BS unsuccessfully. But I understand my frustration now and accept it and let it pass. The problem is that once my BS triggers, the rage comes out, the insults fly, the aggression is at an incredible level, my toddler is crying as well in the midst of it. Its difficult for me to maintain calm, to manage the situation and not get overwhelmed and join in the anger. That's when she sees my attempts at staying calm and managing as running away, which provokes her even more, until either I or she must leave (my conclusion). She feels abandoned and that just pisses her off more until she becomes quiet and resolved that I'm not helping and that it is too late for me, that I will not change (my observation). When things are calm, I begin to reach out with the poor communication skills I have. Its better now that I have read the non violent communication book, but she is resolved that it too late.

I admit that this is a lot of my perspective, I say this because I don't want this post to be read by her and become more evidence that I don't get it. I admit I didn't want to post yesterday for that reason, so I had to figure it out for myself first before I posted again.

It is what it is.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, February 7th (Friday)

I missed yesterday's post. It was a hell of an MC session for both of us. I said some pretty stupid shit in that session. I was so misunderstood, but my MC helped me get to some answers I needed.

For once I got a clear picture of what I'm "supposed" to do when my BS triggers. I asked my BS, "Can you articulate for me what you actually want me to do as opposed to telling all the things you don't want?" With the help of my MC, she finally said "I want you to show me you are sorry and not to be defensive. That is to not clam up, get quiet, but to stay with me and keep telling me you are sorry." I asked, "Even if you are attacking me? I got no right to pause, no right to feel angry, to feel frustrated, no right to try to calm myself down first, to find some clarity?" The answer I got was NO, I got no right to any of that because I am the one who caused it. That she would not be beating on me so hard if I had shown, her definition of remorse, early during the Trigger which is probably in a span of a few minutes or less. With this my MC instructed me to see my BS as wounded, incredibly hurt even though the things that are pouring out of her mouth are hurtful. He said, you basically gotta compartmentalize. Now that is freaking brilliant. Compartmentalizing is easy for me, I've been doing it all my life. But in this case, I need to compartmentalize the Wario who is actually feeling hurt and shame from the foulness that is coming from my BS and operate above it (of course we can unpack it in IC later). Know what that pain is, neglect my own and offer what I can to my BS. The problem now is that my BS is so fried from this last Trigger, that she has detached and is unapproachable. It is now "too late".

We are just recovering from the last Trigger, we (my BS and toddler) are exhausted. I'm trying to hang in but still trying to reach out to my BS. I want her to know I do care, I am trying, I'm tired and its hard. And not to just listen to all the people on SI telling her to just say fuck it to the marriage. They don't know what the hell is really going on and they are just projecting their shit and calling it support (I'm kind of venting here).

Trying to do something different.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 12:14 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

I'm sorry you and your family are having such a difficult time. One of the hardest things for a wayward is not to be defensive when the BS is experiencing a trigger. The more intense the trigger the more defensive we tend to be. It helps to always remember that we caused the infidelity. It also helps to remember that we always have a choice. Just as we chose to betray our partners we can also choose to support them and be with them in the most difficult of moments - when they experiencing a trigger and expressing the full measure of their rage to us. We also do not control other people's lives -our BS, the people on SI and their suggestions. They are free to choose their actions and their words as you are free to choose what you think, say and do. We must respect that. It sounds so simple but I found that it is the most difficult thing to understand, to accept and most of all - to live. You have chosen to be a better person for your family and for yourself. No one can take that away from you. Be safe and free from those thoughts that keep you from supporting your BS.

[This message edited by grains at 10:37 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, February 9th (Sunday)

Thanks again grains for the words of encouragement. I know I can't control what others say or do, including my BS, SI members, etc. I can only control my actions, what I think, say and do. I choose to do better to not give up and be as helpful to my BS as I can, whether she wants to see it or not.

Tomorrow, I have a long standing IC appointment, hope its a good one.

How have other WSs dealt with defensiveness under fire? Do you tense up as well, grow silent as you hear the insults, the rage? Do you compartmentalize to get past it? Comments?

Thanks for reading on.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, February 9th (Sunday)

Yes. I tense up, grow silent and compartmentalize. What this does is show the BS that we are not interested in them in their most vulnerable moments and this just increases their anger and rage. And we tend to turn away from them even more. The hardest thing to do is to acknowledge this as it is happening and move our minds from our feelings of fear and thoughts of rejection and hopelessness to focusing on having empathy for our BS who is suffering and expressing it through their rage at us. The fear we experience from that anger is like seeing a car coming straight at us. We feel that our life will end or we will be hurt terribly. But this is all a delusion. It is what professionals in the field call catastrophic thinking. Please ask your IC about this tomorrow. We won't die neither will we get physically hurt. We should rather see it as our BS run over by a car we were driving. We did this deliberately with our infidelity. They are lying on the road, bleeding, hurt and crying and screaming for help. If we can start with that image then it is not likely that we will turn away from them. We focus on our responsibility for this tragedy and our obligation to help the victim - our BS.
Wario, hang in there. Keep posting and asking questions. Be free and safe from those catastrophic thoughts.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:45 AM, February 10th (Monday)

Thanks grains, I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I'll go over this today with my IC/MC and try to train it out of me.

Thanks again for your help.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, February 10th (Monday)

Wario, hang in there. Please keep posting. Let us know what is happening. There will always be some one who will listen. There will always be a way to make ourselves better and healthier.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)


Thanks again grains for the encouragement.

Yesterday was the first day of my leave of absence from work. It was a pretty busy day. I managed to start rereading/listening to "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" (audio book). I also continued to read the book on Non-Violent Communication, I'm learning about Empathy and Listening to others. I also had an IC session where I unloaded the past 3 weeks worth of frustration and figured out strategies or mindsets for handling future trigger situations. He pointed out that my level of frustration from my BSs trigger reactions should not be a surprise to me, that if I expect it to be different then it is insanity. That I have to change my expectations and hopes, to expect judgement, rage, insults, violence, no understanding, because she is hurt, she does not feel better and will not feel better so why hope for it. Change my expectation and perhaps I can see past all the shit and see that she is hurt and NEEDS me to help. If I see her in need and not as an attacker, then I will not defend. Then I can hear what she is telling me she needs and perhaps give it to her. We will see how that will work...

Today my BS and I had a MC session where we structured what the leave of absence would look like so it doesn't become an exercise in what I failed to do.

We also talked about my SI posts. My BS told me during the session that she no longer reads my posts and finds them dishonest, that I write them to impress the readers of SI. I told her that the only audience I'm trying to impress on SI is her, that I do have her in mind when I am writing them, that they are somewhat edited. however, I did feel pressured in posting each day and finding the time to do it while I was working was difficult. That it became yet another example of how I failed her. This is not the point of posting, I guess
I'm going to continue to post for me and I'm going to take away that source of stress, it may not be everyday, but it will be for me.

"Don't just do something, Stand There" Buddhist Saying

Wario

(I'm sort of just cataloging my journey so I can look back to see what I have done)


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
grains
Member
Member # 32590
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Journaling is very healing. Your posts is your journal. We also recover at our own pace. You will get there. Be well.


WH 60
BS 50
No Children
Together 17 years
Married 7/21/2001
D-day 03/01/2011

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jun 2011
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 3:21 AM, February 14th (Friday)

Thanks grains for checking in and encouraging me to post.

Its been a couple of pretty rough days since my last post. My daughter is sick and needs a little more attention than normal at night. I've been keeping up with my reading on Non-violent communication. I also got a chance to practice what I learned in IC about letting go of unreasonable expectations. My BS and I had a bit of a moment over seeing the doctor for my daughter's cold/flu. I heard all the judgement, I got upset, but I apologized and reviewed my mental notes during my last session.

I said to myself, as I was in the shower, I cannot expect her not to judge my every move and see it as dishonest, I cannot expect her to trust me on anything. It is unreasonable for me to expect different, just apologize for getting upset and trust in your own standards for what you are doing. You cannot live according to the negative image that she sees you right now, you must see past all that pain and defensiveness, she is just protecting herself. You got to trust in your own judgments and believe that what you are doing is not the self-centered shit you used to do. I tried to apologize but my BS retreated, understandably, I tried a little harder and then let it go. The next day I presented my point, still got some judgement but stuck with it, things turned out alright. I'm happy with this, not sure if my BS sees this as a change, but at least I feel better.

Trying to do things different so things turn out different.

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
wario
Member
Member # 20338
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, February 17th (Monday)

Finally got a chance to post. Busy weekend due to the long weekend holiday here, no nanny so my BS and I have to work together to take care of my daughter. We seem to be doing well, both of us are extending "good will" to each other. We are both starting to communicate more effectively, stating clearly what we want instead of what we don't want, respecting each other's choices. I think it is positive and I feel I'm listening more to my BS's needs as she is catching whatever bug my daughter came down with last week. I'm also taking a step back from work being careful not to get pulled in. I'm taking my IC's advice, and compartmentalizing any negativity temporarily in order to unpack in IC. I'm doing IC once a week and I think this gives me some outlet, some understanding without polluting the environment at home.

Taking it one day at a time,

Wario


Me: FWH 40
BS: 42
Married: 12 years
Together:19 years

Multiple EAs from the beginning, 1 EA after marriage


Posts: 186 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: Canada
Topic Posts: 133