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Reconciliation
User Topic: Take it personal, detaching, vacillator and avoider
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Much discussion is had concerning 180, BS detaching, and conflict avoiders (lots of WS fall into this category).

11 months in and I am still struggling with how to piece this together. Lately I have been concerned that my detachment from my fWW is NOT healthy....because it feels more like giving up hope then healthy detachment. But, to be fair, I feel more hopeful today then I have in the recent past....so just roll with me here.

I have read the book "How We Love" by Milan and Kay Yerkovich. I am also on their email list. This just came today...thought it worth posting here. After reading their book I am a Vacillator..my wife is an Avoider. Check out the ending...kinda speaks to what I think is could be going on within my marriage.

The Vacillator feels devastated when the “passionate connection” is lost. They feel angry, betrayed, and abandoned as they discover the Avoider’s lack of ability to connect. They do not understand that because the Avoider never experienced close emotional connections growing up, they cannot understand or value what the Vacillator wants. Initially, Vacillators are willing to work hard to get the Avoider to respond and engage. Over time, however, they become increasingly angry when the Avoider is incapable of providing the consistent, passionate connection they desire. Unlike the Pleaser, they voice their anger, further driving the Avoider into a mode of retreat.
The Vacillator goes through a pattern of protest, despair and detachment over and over when their idealized hopes and dreams don’t materialize. Over time they may give up and detach and appear to be a detached Avoider when in fact they are a Vacillator who has given up hope.

End of quote.

They have a CD out that is supposed to give people skills to break this cycle...it is $30...I think I will order it.

Their book "How We Love" is a great read. It is NOT about infidelity, it is about how husbands and wives interact.

NOTE: There are many, many different types of people...so you may not be a Vacillator and your WS may not be an Avoider. This is important as it makes a big difference on how you interact and changes your patterns dramatically! So take this with a grain of salt until you determine what types you and your spouse are. There is an online quiz that nails it down. To be sure I had traits of other types...but Vacillator is my main type....and Avoider is my wifes.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:18 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

The giving up hope is the dangerous spot.

Sure, giving up hope ends a marriage...but by now that is not my main driver. My main driver is to continue to work on my own issues. If giving up hope stops my motivation to keep moving towards the man I desire to become then THAT is what is dangerous to me.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
TheRealDeal
Member
Member # 39560
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

thank you for the info about the book BlakeSteele

I'm glad you feel more hopeful today. based on this post and your other posts it does seem you are on the right path.

I took the online quiz and wasn't surprised by my outcome (pleaser). if I can learn more about how pleaser and Avoider interact, then this sounds like another beneficial book for me to read.

Like you, I am working to improve myself; remaking my life from the ground up starting with my FOO.

As difficult and painful as it is, its a journey worth exploring for anyone.

I wish you continued peace in yours.


Me: 45, him: 54
together 18 years
DDay1 March 2013, Dday2 April 27, 2013, Dday3 June 1, 2013
We are in R and trying to make it
Never lose yourself trying to hang onto someone who doesn't care about losing you.

Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Northeast
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

You are welcome TheRealDeal. I hope this book helps you better understand your relationship...it is helping me understand mine. Still not sure if what I have is a healthy path, but it is more real....mostly because it is focused on that which I can control....me!

I see you are relatively new to this trauma....will follow your progress.

Peace be with you.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
brokensmile322
Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Thanks for this post Blake. I took the test online. Received my results. Suspected highly that my WH was the direct opposite of me.

Had him take the test. Yep, polar opposites. Further reading on the site showed that apparently we can play off each other quite well....and not to our advantage.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will be getting this book.


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1440 | Registered: Jun 2012
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Thanks blakesteele,

Wow....based on your article clipping I'm a Vacillator to a "T."

Will take the test tomorrow and see how it comes out.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Dreamland
Member
Member # 40488
Default  Posted: 1:03 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Ok Wow.. I think I am a vacillatior for sure and WH is definite avoider... I will order the book sounds like we need it and the CD. Can you post the link please..
Thanks


Me-BS 50 Him-WH 47, DD17
Together since 1993, Married 19 yrs
DDay 3/12,4/12,7/12 EA-PA OW - 25 single husband chasing bastard whore

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 4:24 AM, August 30th (Friday)

http://www.howwelove.com/blog/vacillator-avoider-core-pattern/2863/

Is a link to the website.

Had him take the test. Yep, polar opposites. Further reading on the site showed that apparently we can play off each other quite well....and not to our advantage.

Yeah brokensmile322...first read through after you both take the quiz is shocking and depressing...just an initial reaction though. As you read in the book this "pairing" is not only common, it is almost a given that it will opposites attract in the traditional sense...but it does speak to how we subconsciously are attracted to people with different traits then we possess....and that works for a while on its own, naturally. But when crisis occurs and we develop expectations on how the other person in our relationship SHOULD react...that is where the problems occur. Have not mastered all of Milan and Kays thoughts...thus my ordering the CD and continue to be on their newsletter mailing list.

They go on to explain how to work through these common impasses....I think the new CD will be even more specific.

This adds to the whole "nothing I am experiencing is unique to me" feeling. Still painful but not unique.

As I follow what is written about a vacillator (me) and an avoider ( wife)....two things jump out at me. First, an affair was almost certainly going to be a part of my wife's life, and MY ways of engaging my wife (whether it was my current one or another woman) would have left me less connected then I truly desired by my own actions. Neither of these outcomes are the fault of the other spouse....it plays out like it has due to our own actions.

As you read the book "like" people don't marry "like" people.

Believe it or not, I think this is healthy. Again, I get the shocked feeling you got after taking the quiz and doing some light reading on the types you and your husband are. My wife has strengths I don't have, and I have strengths she doesn't have. You and your husband are similar. IF we can maneuver through this we can, together, make a stronger team then doing life on our own. Biblical references are made to this same relationship as well....not sure of the line of getting into too much religion so I will stop there.

Besides, I am a "young" Christian.....hardly in a position to elaborate on my relationship with God and to restate His thoughts to others.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 5:03 AM, August 30th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 4:39 AM, August 30th (Friday)

For the record....I ALMOST shared this latest newsletter from Kay and Milan with my wife....actually got as far as asking her if she would be open to hearing it. She said yes but continued to read her ereader. I asked her if she could put it down while I read it...she did but I just got the sense she didn't really want to engage.

I made a conscious decision to disengage this course if action WITHOUT losing all hope.

This is good as before this type of interaction would reduce my level of hope I had for our marriage. I believe I disengaged and stayed at about the same "hope" level I was at before this time. Good because I don't have much hope left to lose!!!

A shame though because my wife is not showing me she is getting this dynamic within herself....but that is her journey and hers to change.

I am hopeful the small accomplishment I feel now, after breaking this small part of my unhealthy cycle, will enable me to move into a healthy cycle.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
cantaccept
Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 5:05 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Very insightful and I am going to order the book now also.

I took the test two ways, how I believed before and how I believe now.

It made me see I have made progress in this without even knowing!

I am so self critical, feeling like I am getting no where. This made me see I am moving forward.

Thank you.

I am a pleaser, to a very unhealthy level. I did know this but so hard to change. I am often feeling like I am stuck in the old patterns, a constant battle.

It was very good to see in black and white that I am making progress. Something to feel good about.


Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely.

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

Divorced 8/5/14


Posts: 1308 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 5:08 AM, August 30th (Friday)

NOTATION: I am a mix of types, but vacillator is my strongest area. My wife is a mix of types, but avoider is her strongest type. We both have some pleaser in us...so their ARE similarities.

These similarities shine through when it comes to things such as finances and how to raise our children...we differ on some political views.

Just wanted to clarify this for those members who will just read this post and not investigate Milan and Kay further....if you just read this post you might get the impression you are JUST one type of person....it is far more complex then that.

But for me, working on a complex issue starts with me finding some basic, easy to apply rules to set some ground work....then expand into the intricacies from their.

It works for me so that is why my post is pretty black and white at first....then I get the focus to make sense of the gray.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 5:12 AM, August 30th (Friday)

(((cantaccept)))

Nice to hear from you...find it comforting to see you mention black and white in your post...I JUST posted to this string with the same verbiage. We continue to move along similar paths!

You ARE moving forward. I can see it in your posts, glad the quiz gave you more confidence in that. Anything we can do to rebuild our confidence is a good thing....WS and BS alike. This experience rattles both...makes us both question reality.

Cool suggestion to take the test again....with the new wisdom we have gained from this experience. I am totally going to do that too.

I feel a shift, would be cool if it showed up on their quiz. But if it doesn't at least I am more aware of myself.

God be with you.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 5:14 AM, August 30th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 5:15 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Oh yeah, my wife turned me onto this book...the only one she has talked with me about really. She got it on her ereader....I ordered the book. That's just how I roll...old skool.

Just felt this detail was important.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
cantaccept
Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, August 30th (Friday)

(((blakesteele)))

We do seem to be following similar paths.

I did get off the path for a bit this week. I was blindsided and I am still a bit wobbly from it. It doesn't take much to detour from the forward direction.

I am still struggling with this new info. Creates such doubt in whether I am able to go forward with R. Seems to stir up the doubts about h being able to do the work or even want to. It makes me question him.

I think it makes me want to take control and tell him what he needs to do and ultimately that just makes me feel worse.

Good to hear from you too.

Peace.


Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely.

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

Divorced 8/5/14


Posts: 1308 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, August 30th (Friday)

Yep...I ALMOST shared the newsletter with my wife. Took a moment for a quick conference with God...two seconds!really short...decided not to share. It was the right decision...but it felt wrong. "Trying to do something right for the first time is hard."...heard that on a commentary this morning on the way to work.

I, too, struggle with what you struggle with.

But as a vacillator I need to learn to break this cycle....to disengage without losing hope.

But I struggle with "educating" my wife on what Avoiders need to do.

Truthfully, as I read about Avoiders...there is a real possiblity that some people wont have the drive to really face and change what needs to change in sufficient amounts to satisfy needs of others. And what my wife witnessed and experienced in her home growing up was pretty strong...so it Avoider could be deeply engrained in her.

In this regards, I think Vacillators have an easier time with internal changes....not easy, but easier.

I do know I love my wife very much. I sense you love your husband very much. Since I believe we are NOT Avoiders we have the ability to more easily develop compassion for our spouses....and am hopeful this will comfort our spouses enough for them to move further into themsleves and conflicts they need to face within themselves.

I see this is as different then "fixing them"....your thoughts?

I actually get glimpses of how a man and woman can really strengthen each other in life...in the biblical sense....with neither being the dominant controller type. Never really felt that pre-A.

Wisdom is only beneficial when we put it to use. As we know better, we must do better.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:10 AM, August 30th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Undone1
Member
Member # 37683
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Blake,

I just took the test, and I am a vacillator/ WH is an avoider. The description of this combination is spot on and totally describes our marriage. I see now why you said an A was bound to happen. It seems that is true. He avoided and eventually I just gave up drawing him out...felt like if you wanted to talk about something it was up to him, so I let him avoid.

Now we are both having to learn now skills and it is hard. Fortunately the book is a message of hope that we all can change.


Undone1
Married 10+ years to my high school sweetheart
DDAY 10/27/12
Me 55
WH 55
Blended Family: 25, 21, and 20
Married 10 years
"The Universe Unfolds as it Should"

Posts: 301 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Missouri
crazyblindsided
Member
Member # 35215
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, August 30th (Friday)

This is very interesting and makes so much sense to me now. I just scored highest on vacillator and I think my WH is probably an avoider.

This whole thread sounds like my relationship with WH.


BS/FWS (me):40 Madhatter
WS/BS:42 Serial Cheater
Together 18 years, Married 13
DD(10) DS(7)
DDay(s) 5/08, 5/09, 3/30/12
Final Dday 7/11/14 Affair never ended

Posts: 2266 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: California
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Glad this resonates with folks. It seems that the vacillator avoider relationship is particularly at risk for adultery.

BUT...that is really because rarely are people fully aware of their coping mechanisms....and even if they are they falsely think this is part of their personality...a part that is just there. Take it or leave it. I don't believe this, and neither do Milan and Kay.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
IGaveItMyAll
Member
Member # 38622
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, August 30th (Friday)

You just described me to a T.... I am losing hope!!!


ME-BS 34
FWW-28
M 6 Yrs
DDAY- 8/20/12
R

Posts: 332 | Registered: Mar 2013
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, August 30th (Friday)

((((((( igaveitmyall)))))))

Hang in there man.... am praying for you now. Try to rest....I have been where you are at....it will pass.


Peace be with you.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:32 PM, August 30th (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
joeboo
Member
Member # 31089
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Interesting read Blake. I am a hodgepodge of everything but peacekeeper. My strongest suit was avoider. My fww is a peacekeeper (i filled in the blanks based on my own perception of how she would have answered with no one looking).

Not sure exactly what that means as I kind of already had an idea. I will say that my fww seems to have gravitated toward controllers. It seems to compliment her willingness to please. Not something I really gave much thought to before but it makes sense now.


Posts: 1208 | Registered: Feb 2011
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

Interesting quiz. I have, like, 3 problem areas! I tell you what, a dysfunctional childhood is the gift that just keeps on giving!!

(High scores in Pleasing, Vascillating, and somewhat high in Avoiding!)

Thankfully, I do not appear to be a victim.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1860 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
whattheh
Member
Member # 40032
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Thanks for this link Blakesteele.

I am mix of vascillator and pleaser as in needs work. My H is strong avoider but also mix of vascillator and pleaser.

I think I was a stronger vascillator before dday but have been making a conscious effort to not detach as we worked thru this. My H was remorseful from the start and cheating had ended so I forced myself to stay engaged, as prior to this I would have detached more. I guess I believed our M survival depended on him owning it big time (wouldn't let him avoid much).

Looking back my H became a stronger avoider as he neared his decision to cheat.

This is very helpful to ponder...

My H had a pretty good childhood but it was a large family and he was the problem child when young (acted out, stole a little, vandalized, lied). He was and is a risk taker. But he straightened himself out as he got older by high school. I met him after college and found him to be very honorable upstanding and decent. Never thought he would ever cheat and neither did he.

I think he received a lot of negative responses and feedback when he was young though as I've read a heartbreaking he wrote as a small boy.

[This message edited by whattheh at 3:48 PM, August 31st (Saturday)]


BW- mid 50's (me)
fWH-late 50's
M 33 T 35
DD-Early 2013
In R but I have PTSD...

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Topic Posts: 23