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Reconciliation
User Topic: WH's "contract"
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 12:30 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Here is the handwritten "contract" he gave to me tonight. This comes after I asked him last night why so much of his cash expenditures were labeled as "miscellaneous." (e.g., $300 out of a $400 ATM withdrawal was "miscellaneous.")

I filed for D in June; court date is set for Sep. He says he wants to R, so I am watching to see what he does. We are in in-house separation now.

I am posting this in R after I posted in S/D and they recommended I post here.

Here it goes:

1. In order to rebuild trust, I will commit to a monthly polygraph test for the next 6 months.  If these tests are positive, meaning "no deception," tests will be every 2 months for an additional 1 year.  If "no deception" in these tests, testing will end at the end of that year (approximately the end of 2014).

2. I will continue to see (CSAT) and follow his treatment plan, in whatever form he recommends.  You will continue to have access to him to report on our meetings and progress, but he is my therapist, not you.

3. I will terminate my facebook account.

4. I will continue to keep receipts for all cash transactions and will minimize cash transactions to the greatest extent possible.

5. I will provide you with the password to my personal email account. I will also provide you access to my work email, but not my passwords to my work devices.

In exchange for items 1 through 5 above:
(a) You will refrain from giving me the third degree about cash spending, travel, email correspondence and any alleged misconduct.

(b) We will continue the court hearing until Jan 2014, unless either of us decides that our differences are irreconcilable, at which time a new (and earlier) date may be _____???

(c) You will reduce your therapy to 2 sessions per week for September and October and to one session per week beginning in November.

(d) I will seek to break the lease on my condo as soon as possible.

(e) I will be permitted to: (1) travel to ______ for 3 days in September to meet with (6 guys names) at ____'s home and (2) travel to Las Vegas in October to meet with (5 guys, including all the guys from the "cheating" Vegas trip).

Additional items:

1. No home repair or improvement activities will be pursued or undertaken without prior discussion and mutual agreement (i.e., no calling for door repairs without first consulting each other).

2. Cleaning lady will be reduced to 2 times per month.

3. Our son's counseling will be re-evaluated to determine if the current schedule is overdoing it, with the goal of reducing paid counseling to $250 per month.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 12:47 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Personally I feel that the 'contract' is bullshit.

and any alleged misconduct.

= bullshit 'alleged'

(c) You will reduce your therapy to 2 sessions per week for September and October and to one session per week beginning in November.

no freaking way

but the pure gold is

I will be permitted to: (1) travel to ______ for 3 days in September to meet with (6 guys names) at ____'s home and (2) travel to Las Vegas in October to meet with (5 guys, including all the guys from the "cheating" Vegas trip).

HA! what a self entitled person!


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 3:16 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

He tried to write this very tit for tat. But then he realised that he had eight things he wanted - compared to his only offering you five things. So you both got five things on your 'official' list - his cunningly disguised as letters - and then he just added his other three things on the end as additional numbered items... so he can number them 1-3 instead of 6-8.. - manipulating much?


But it struck me as all just window dressing anyway. What he really wants is 'a' and 'e'. He laid the groundwork with your list and his 'a' .....and then he played what seems to me his real cards with the 'e'. Those two are the biggies on his list, even though he tried to separate them and wrote 'e' as the last item on his (official) 'list of five demands'


It's like 'e' is actually written in *glowing* neon capitals - that's how much it stands out - becuase that's the 'fix' he has in his sights this time, and everything on your list is just what he's prepared to do to GET it.


What he *wants* comes sooner than what you're supposed to be *getting* - so as long as he gets your 'permission' *NOW* he gets what he wants.... to meet up with 'the guys' and 'go to Vegas'...whether the rest of the contract holds up afterwards - or not.


That's what it appears like to me. I know that sounds *really* harsh and maybe I'm being too hard - but that's just how it struck me.


....but now I'm wondering if I'm being too cynical...but the fact is, he just wants to go to Vegas with your permission. Maybe he doesn't plan to actually *PHYSICALLY* DO anything 'wrong' there - but I'm not sure a guys trip to Vegas is a good idea for someone who's this early in CSAT therapy, wouldn't it be like a dry drunk at a party surrounded by beer?

[This message edited by sinsof thefather at 3:21 AM, August 29th (Thursday)]


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1880 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 6:15 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Um......NO.


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7673 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
heforgotme
Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 7:02 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Why does he want you to reduce your counseling????


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1083 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

He wants me to reduce my IC because of money. I am spending $1200 on IC per month. We have the money, so it does not affect our lifestyle.

[This message edited by numbandnauseous at 7:20 AM, August 29th (Thursday)]


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
LivingALie
Member
Member # 17217
Default  Posted: 7:27 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

I'd put the contract in the shredder.


Me: BS
H had LTA with co-worker
Both mid-50s
Two sons - grown and on their own
DD - April 2010
Please note registration date is not correct. See my profile for details
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 1264 | Registered: Nov 2007
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

I might use it as toilet paper and then give it back to him. That is pure and utter BS. Manipulative all the way. It's designed so he can continue his wayward behavior completely.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
musiclovingmom
Member
Member # 38207
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

nan - I have spent most of the night thinking about this. I know that my response is jaded, so please feel free to ignore. The thing that struck me is that he wants you AND your son to reduce counseling. In my VERY humble opinion, this is his opportunity to keep you vulnerable. If you continue your counseling, you will heal and get stronger. He doesn't want that. He seems to have a strong desire to be in control of the situation and if you are strong enough to contest and stand up for yourself, that throws a kink in his plans. I don't see him taking ANY responsibility here. Why else would he say 'alleged misconduct'? Maybe I have the read all wrong, but this reeks of an abuser mentality to me. I hope I am so wrong. I also hope that you and your son continue to get the help you need - especially since cost is not affecting your lifestyle.

Posts: 1105 | Registered: Jan 2013
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

He is the same guy. I smell NPD.

I suggest running.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6545 | Registered: Jan 2011
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

@Sins:

That's what it appears like to me. I know that sounds *really* harsh and maybe I'm being too hard - but that's just how it struck me.

....but now I'm wondering if I'm being too cynical...but the fact is, he just wants to go to Vegas with your permission. Maybe he doesn't plan to actually *PHYSICALLY* DO anything 'wrong' there - but I'm not sure a guys trip to Vegas is a good idea for someone who's this early in CSAT therapy, wouldn't it be like a dry drunk at a party surrounded by beer?

No, not harsh. Not cynical. SPOT ON!

Dry drunk (or someone in early recovery) at party surrounded by alcohol...great analogy. And NOT a great idea.

Recovery from addiction NEVER happens without changing "people, places, and things". I speak from experience as an alcoholic/addict who spent a substantial time NOT recovering due to NOT changing people, places, and things. And as an alcoholic/addict who did finally get it and is coming up on 19 years clean and sober. Those fighting against recovery who don't give up people, places, and things have one destiny...relapsing.

This contract would be laughable if it weren't so sad and delusional. Sins hits the nail on the head, and everyone else replying is seeing the barely concealed truth - he doesn't want R. Deep down, you're hoping it is somehow otherwise. But deeper down your gut must be telling you what you know is the truth. It doesn't matter that your WH doesn't see it, believe it, or have a clue what he's really doing (though he sounds sly like a fox).

"A" is about general opportunity to cheat (travel) and the untraceable funds to support his addiction. "E" is a preplanned playdate with "people, places, and things". The rest is BS, window dressing, and selfish, delusional gibberish.

I'm a Wayward. And your WH is giving us a bad name! I feel for you. And actually him, too.

JD

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 9:43 AM, August 29th (Thursday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
PamJ
Member
Member # 40475
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Ridiculous! Where does he get the idea that he has any ground to negotiate what HE wants at this point?
He's not getting it and he is resentful of you. Entitled is putting it mildly.


Me: BS 50+
Him: WH 60

3 EAs

2 grown sons, 1 grown step-son

Last DDay, March 19, 2013 after a few weeks of TT- trying to have a new marriage after almost 35 years.
No more chances.


Posts: 56 | Registered: Aug 2013
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

When I read this contract, I got the feeling Mr. n&n was dictating R, on his terms...giving a little here and there, but digging his heals in over certain things.

Time in Vegas with the same guys who were part of his cheating? No way! He shouldn't even be friends with them anymore.

Sadly, IMHO he is not interested in real R, and you need to continue with the D in September.

((((numbandnauseous))))


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Silentthoughts
Member
Member # 40289
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, August 29th (Thursday)

Wow, I'm sorry you are in this position. Agree the contract should be toilet paper or if you have a bird, lining for the bottom of the cage. Holy NPD Mowly! and i am a ww.

Type it up with only 1 - 5, add any of your conditions not listed and give it back to him and say this is MY contract for you.

And continue the therapy for you and you child as long as you need and have the $$.

Good luck.


WW - early 50s (me)
BH - late 40s
3 grown children
Married 25 years
Online cyber sex dec 2010. I got caught late dec 2010. Lying and TT until full disclosure jan 2011.
In R we both are committed to staying in this M.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Aug 2013
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:14 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Points 1-5 and d - sound good to me. Point b sounds OK if you come to an agreement to work on your M.

Add'l item #1 has merit on the surface, but it sounds like there's an ulterior motive here, and that bothers me a lot.

On the whole, I'd like to see commitment to:

NC, full transparency (not just the e-mail accounts you know about), willingness to answer any question any time, recognition that he has to prove he's trustworthy, recognition that a poly just isn't enough (IMO, that is, and I hope it's not enough for you),
a commitment to monogamy,
a commitment to spending time together
a commitment to helping you clean the house (since he wants you to give up paid help)
a commitment to being with your son...that's just off the top of my head.

Also, I just don't see how a desire to travel periodically to LV with the guys fits with monogamy. Fishing or hunting (if you don't like that), camping and backwoods hiking or biking (if you don't like doing those things or can't keep up) with the guys makes some sense. Going to NYC for a week of shows and opera with the guys makes sense, if you don't like theater or opera.

But LV markets itself as a place to break through normal boundaries. LV with couples makes sense to me. LV with just male or females - that bothers me a lot, for any participants who are M.

it sounds to me like he's got a long way to go before he becomes a good candidate for R. JMO, and I could be way wrong, of course.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10341 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

sins - you are amazingly brilliant and spot on re: manipulation and everything else. I like how you noticed the numbers vs. letters to throw me off - I didn't catch that!

music - you are not jaded at all, you are seeing very clearly. Thank you.

I agree with you all. My thoughts:
1-5 are requirements for me to stay M to him, so he doesn't get anything in "exchange" for 1-5.

He just wants to go on his trips, remain an SA and a bachelor; he has no interest in R.

But, it gets even better. This morning, he came into my room and after some pleasant small talk about the kids, he asked me if I had read his letter. I said yes, he asked what I thought. I said I have to think about it some more. He said it is a way to "build trust" and give us some space. I am noticing how he takes what he knows I want - to build trust and a polygraph - and uses it to manipulate me.

Anyway, he then asks me not to share the letter with anyone and then ASKS FOR THE LETTER BACK. I said, how am I going to read it if I don't have it. He said he will give it to me later, but he "unfortunately" doesn't trust me to not show it to anyone. I didn't tell him that I had already shared it with thousands of people on SI.

I am going to call my L to see if I can hefty bag his shit and change the locks today. I want this crazy mother fucker out of my life pronto. Can't believe I gave him yet another chance at R. Live and learn.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
lordhasaplan?
Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

"In exchange for". sorry it all is meanngless after that phrase.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1908 | Registered: Nov 2010
faithhopelove23
New Member
Member # 39211
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

Have to agree with the others about this "contract".
There's nothing in here to your benefit. It's still all about him. And honestly it sounds VERY financially motivated.

And will honestly say a trip to LV was my WH's 2nd mistake. I abhor LV and wish more people could truly see how dangerous it is for marraiges. WH and I have argued many times over LV trips because his main vendor has a huge conference once a year that he HAS to go to.

#1 and #a: You should be able to ask any and all questions you want and expect to get an honest answer -- polygraphs aside... and a ridiculous thing to suggest. Who would come up with the questions?

#2: I don't like the snide comment about you not being his therapist -- that just means he doesn't want to communicate honestly with you

#3: Anyone can set up an "anonymous" FB account and still keep in contact with anyone else.

#4: Not all places and receipts are obvious and many that cater to cheaters will ring up as something else....or if he is sneaky enough he can find some place that will return for cash.

#5: anyone can setup an anonymous email account that you would know nothing about. And I doubt his employer would be happy with him giving you his password to that email.

#b: just gives him more time to get HIS ducks in a row....I would continue on the path and not put anything off...nothing says you can't reconcile after the next court date!

#c: NO way ...you deserve as much therapy as you need to get stronger and be the best person for you and your son!
#d: umm...no he doesn't get to move back in until YOU are comfortable and invite him back
#e: NO Way IN H3LL.....See personal opinion above.
#1 additional -- have home repairs been a financial issue?
#2 additional -- umm, yeah he can help come and clean if he wants to stop the cleaning lady (although I did stop mine and the lawn service when WH moved out just because I had a very limited budget and was unwilling to spend college funds/savings for it not knowing when I would need it later)

#3 addtional : here's where I would fight til kingdom come....I'd maybe give on some of MY points, but not on anything that had to do with my child!

[This message edited by faithhopelove23 at 12:34 PM, August 29th (Thursday)]


Posts: 11 | Registered: May 2013
Card
Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, August 29th (Thursday)

I guess my first question would have to be, 'where is the transparency in this arrangement?

I really don't see much if any?

Though I agree that this contract is ridiculous, I'm going to comment on some specifics anyways.


1. In order to rebuild trust, I will commit to a monthly polygraph test for the next 6 months. If these tests are positive, meaning "no deception," tests will be every 2 months for an additional 1 year. If "no deception" in these tests, testing will end at the end of that year (approximately the end of 2014).

Interesting? Using a polygraph to keep him accountable.

Expensive! Yes, but if it's affordable it might just work.

Caveat, 'You are present at all tests and he signs a waiver to release all results to you before hand'.


2. I will continue to see (CSAT) and follow his treatment plan, in whatever form he recommends. You will continue to have access to him to report on our meetings and progress, but he is my therapist, not you.

Throwing you a bone!

3. I will terminate my facebook account.

Really? Why hasn't this been done already?

Will he give you the password to this account prior to shutting it down?

What about a keylogger on all his computers? IMO, it's a must!


4. I will continue to keep receipts for all cash transactions and will minimize cash transactions to the greatest extent possible.

How about no cash transactions!
It really is very simple to go without cash with all the debit and credit card availability today.
I'd go exclusively to a bank that will track all transactions on your statements so that none are conveniently forgotten.


5. I will provide you with the password to my personal email account. I will also provide you access to my work email, but not my passwords to my work devices.

This one made me laugh out loud.....
He can give you everything you need, even his work passwords. It's nonsense for him to hold out on anything......
Transparency, Transparency, Transparency!


In exchange for items 1 through 5 above:
(a) You will refrain from giving me the third degree about cash spending, travel, email correspondence and any alleged misconduct.

In other words, 'You need to shut the ______ up'.


(b) We will continue the court hearing until Jan 2014, unless either of us decides that our differences are irreconcilable, at which time a new (and earlier) date may be _____???


An escape clause?

Really!

(c) You will reduce your therapy to 2 sessions per week for September and October and to one session per week beginning in November.

In other words, if YOU get to make decisions about my IC, I get to interfere in yours.


(d) I will seek to break the lease on my condo as soon as possible.

This is more simple than he's making it.

Empty out the condo and turn in the keys to the leaser along with a check for the duration of the lease. Ask them to lease it out ASAP and send back any unused funds once a new tenant is found.

This is what I did!!!
In my case, they had it leased out two months later. They sent a refund for the balance remaining.


(e) I will be permitted to: (1) travel to ______ for 3 days in September to meet with (6 guys names) at ____'s home and (2) travel to Las Vegas in October to meet with (5 guys, including all the guys from the "cheating" Vegas trip).


No!
No!
And, Hell No!


You can always offer to make the trips together or not at all!

Your WH is still living in a fog!

If I had given my wife a contract like this, she would have gladly handed me my ass with a hat on it!

I'd recommend that you think about what YOU 'need' at this point. Protect yourself in every legal way possible.

I'd also ask myself, what could YOU loose if he drags this out for a year? IMO, most waywards aren't thinking very far ahead, but I've seen some that are very strategic in their planning and they burn the BS by dragging out the timeline of the court/finances/lookback periods/etc.


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, August 30th (Friday)

Oh, he's not going to drag it out for a year. I am going to tell him tonight that I can't be M to him anymore and that he needs to move out. We already have our court date scheduled for the end of September.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
tryin2havefaith
Member
Member # 37165
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, August 30th (Friday)

I agree with the others....total BS!!!


If he truly wanted to R, he would come to you with a blank paper and let you put the terms down. He as WH does not get to 'dictate' terms.

I have some large size contractor bags if you need!


ME- BS
HIM- WS
DDay 1/2011
4 - 6 months of TT'ing
Fully R'd
"Just as ripples spread out when a single pebble is dropped into water, the actions of individuals can have far-reaching effects. " -Dalai Lama

Posts: 265 | Registered: Oct 2012
dazdandconfuzed
Member
Member # 11692
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, August 31st (Saturday)

fWH has been in recovery for 2 years now, but he is an SA. He took what I thought was a very carefully worded poly and "passed". Through initial discussions, I realized many of his answers were not truthful. When I pointed it out to him, his answer was "huh - I didn't think of it that way (ie you said x when the truth is y, he would say he never even considered y so at the time he thought x was true)".

In other words - he "beat" the poly. When I talked to our MC about it, he wasn't surprised at all. He said it made sense since H was so delusional. I'm guessing your H is pretty sure he is gonna beat any poly, and that's why he offered them.


Me - BW
Him - WH

Posts: 6621 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: Massachusetts
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 11:29 PM, August 31st (Saturday)

Thanks, dazd, for your input. My SAWH also has NPD traits, so I was thinking he might be able to beat the poly bc he believes his lies. That is why he is willing to do so many of them.

Also, I was thinking that I do not want to have to be M to someone who is constantly taking polys as a measure of his truthfulness and fidelity to me - seems like he is a criminal and seems like there should be something else that I can believe in rather than having a machine tell me that my H is being honest. Who would want to have a M like that?

to the offers of hefty/contractor bags!

I still haven't told him - I am totally prepared, but I was out late with the kids tonight and I didn't have the energy to start the convo after we finally got them in bed. I will get the kids in bed early tomorrow and tell him then.

Also, as a background thing, there is a possibility that his cancer is back - one of the tumor markers in his blood is elevated. His oncologist thinks it's nothing, but he is having a scan soon just to make sure. One of my IRL confidantes has told me that I can't leave him if he has cancer, so I better get him out of the house before he gets the scan just in case the results are not favorable. It makes me sad that I have to even think this way, but remaining M to him as he is now is unbearable to me.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
Dreamland
Member
Member # 40488
Default  Posted: 8:02 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

I am so sorry.. I too agree it sounds fishy...
So he is trying to save money but he's willing to spend money for his Vegas trip.. I bet he drops more than 1200$ for that... Your IC and your child's is far more important than any trips with friends.. In fact he shouldn't be traveling at all unless its only work related and then not Vegas..
Also how much did he spend on OW 2... Are you sure she isn't dictating anything here.. Like an exit affair maybe OW2 is trying to be his next future BW.. Also did you get him to sign a postnuptial contract regarding future financial state if he were to cheat again.
I agree continue with your path and good luck..


Me-BS 50 Him-WH 47, DD17
Together since 1993, Married 19 yrs
DDay 3/12,4/12,7/12 EA-PA OW - 25 single husband chasing bastard whore

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013
Dark Inertia
Member
Member # 30727
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, September 1st (Sunday)

Hmm, I don't know if you genuinely want constructive criticism or you are just posting this "contract" to be mocked.
Thoughts on the contract:

I also think if he is to accountable for his cash then you should be accountable for the money that you mentioned in an earlier thread you are hiding from him. If you are even playing with the idea of reconciliation BOTH of you need to be open and honest with each other.

On the therapy thing... is this the same therapy that you both attended where yourself and the therapist seemingly pressured him into finding some sort of FOO issues? I am only going off of what I recall, and I do remember thinking there was a lot of pressure for him to find a traumatic event from childhood.

No, I don't think it is wise for him to go to Las Vegas at this point.

OW2? I thought he had one "possible" affair with some chick from his Las Vegas trip. Honestly, I remember the transcripts OP posted of the VAR, and I never got the impression he cheated. =/

[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 9:14 PM, September 1st (Sunday)]


"If I listened earlier, I wouldn't be here. But that's just the trouble with me. I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

Posts: 1280 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: The Ohio
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 1:00 AM, September 2nd (Monday)

Today I told SAWH that I can't stay M to him anymore and he has to move out. He acted truly surprised and confused; said that he thought he was offering all the things I wanted: polygraphs and going to CSAT/following recommendations. He conveniently failed to mention what he wanted "in exchange for" him being in therapy: my son and I to reduce our therapy, reduce cleaning lady and he wanted to take a Vegas trip with the same guys that he went to Vegas with when he cheated on me. It's so interesting to watch now that I know how he manipulates - it's really easy to see now and for that I am thankful.

He took it pretty well. We are going to tell the kids tomorrow and he'll move out in a week or so to give them some transition time.

The only wrinkle was when he asked for his contract back.  I told him I would get it back to him.  He said he needed it RIGHT NOW and kept on demanding it; at first demanding the original, then demanding a photocopy RIGHT NOW.  He was talking in a threatening tone and said he was going to get it if I didn't give it to him.  I asked him if I needed to call the police and then he backed down.

I told him when I gave him a photocopy of his contract that if he was going to act like that then he was going to have to leave sooner than we discussed bc I wasn't going to tolerate that. He then was conciliatory, but who knows?

So that's my update for now; I'll keep you posted....

Dark Inertia - no, I don't really want constructive criticism; just wanted to be validated bc I thought his contract was total BS and I wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting. I'm not sure what money you are talking about that I am hiding from him, but I already am completely transparent with my money. I charge everything except for therapy and our cleaning lady. So, all my cash goes to therapy and house cleaning and I have labeled it as such in our quicken account. My SAWH, on the other hand, has most of his cash in quicken labeled as "misc," which is in no way acceptable for a WH, much less a SAWH. Re: the therapy thing - he is seeing a CSAT of his choosing, not our MC that we were seeing before. And, we weren't trying to force him to find some trauma in his childhood; he just wouldn't even admit a SINGLE bad thing (it didn't have to be traumatic) that had happened in his childhood: he was never upset with his parents, never had a single bad feeling in his childhood according to him - which is not only deceitful, it is impossible. I have first-hand seen his mother's NPD/PA, manipulative ways and his father's "doormat" passiveness and there is no way he could not be affected in some way by that. Re: OW2 - I got to meet her; he planned to meet up with her across the country without me. When we were across the country I wanted to go home from a party that she was at and he made me wait for 30 mins bc she said she wanted to talk to him, thus putting OW2's needs above his wife's. Then he tried to go see her without me and I told him no. He then snuck out the next day lying that he was going to run errands, but ended up going to see her. As for OW1 in Vegas, I don't know if it was a PA, but was definitely an EA. Why would you ever think it would be ok for a M man to meet an old HS GF in Vegas and NOT TELL HIS WIFE?! You didn't get the impression that he cheated, but many others did. I'm not sure why you feel the need to post that you didn't feel that he cheated. I have read your other posts and you are very supportive to others. I don't feel that you are supportive to me and I am a hurting BS just like many others on here.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
ionlytalkedtoher
Member
Member # 39802
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, September 2nd (Monday)

what ? tell him to rewrite it.

he is under the impression that marriages are fair and everyone gets equal this and that if you give me this I will give you that. \no. marriage is all about sacrifice.

You can "allow" him to do anything that feels comfortable for you. If not--then no.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Jul 2013
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

So I told him that he needs to move out. He has been crying and said he needs more time to tell the kids. He then said that the contract was negotiable. I don't know what to do. I feel like I will need to teach him how to be in a relationship and let him know that he will not be able to hang out with his friends (the ones in the first trip are into porn and then ones in the second, Vegas trip went along with his cheating, so neither are good influences for him at this point in his recovery). I was thinking that I should tell him to go over the contract with his CSAT so it would be his CSAT telling him that these things are not ok instead of me being the bad guy.

At the same time, I am not sure I want to go yet another round with him - he is clearly not into recovery and I don't know if this is yet another stall tactic and a waste of my time. I don't know if he will ever truly enter into recovery.

[This message edited by numbandnauseous at 11:26 AM, September 3rd (Tuesday)]


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
soconfusednow
Member
Member # 40078
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

1. In order to rebuild trust, I will commit to a monthly polygraph test for the next 6 months. If these tests are positive, meaning "no deception," tests will be every 2 months for an additional 1 year. If "no deception" in these tests, testing will end at the end of that year (approximately the end of 2014).

I know someone who admitted he should have failed the test, then bragged about how easy it was to pass.


D-Day January 2013
prior EA in the 90's
me 50
WH 52
NC-several
last broken NC 7/2013 (hopefully)
Married 29 years
2 kids
Want to believe it's over, but is it really? Will I ever trust again?

Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:02 AM, September 4th (Wednesday)

N&N,

A WS that is remorseful does not offer up their BS a contract of any sort that allows for them to continue in old behavior. This is not him being remorseful, this is him bargaining in order to have the marriage how he wants it. He is crying because he knows how to manipulate you well. Do not fall for this.

As to whether I think your H is NPD or SA or just a run of the mill giant asshole, I can't say. Giant assholes can look like a lot of things that are easy to slap a label on. Either way, he knows your buttons, so stand firm in what your boundaries are.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5056 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
PamJ
Member
Member # 40475
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

My WH cried the night I finally got all the info I needed to know he had started up with his EA with the same OW again. He knew he was in big trouble and he cried. I was too numb to worry about it at the time.

A week later when he finally admitted another bit of info he had previously lied about I was upset again that he was still doing that, holding out on me when he knew I needed it all to get it out and deal with it, I was mad. he cried again, only this time I told him. "Don't do that, i don't need your tears" and I walked away. I felt like he was being manipulative and shifting the attention to him, his feelings, his needs. He got upset for a few that I would discount his tears and i told him he had no right to be angry with me. I was not the betrayer. He hasn't done it since, which is good, I
found it quite repulsive at the time.


Me: BS 50+
Him: WH 60

3 EAs

2 grown sons, 1 grown step-son

Last DDay, March 19, 2013 after a few weeks of TT- trying to have a new marriage after almost 35 years.
No more chances.


Posts: 56 | Registered: Aug 2013
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 11:34 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

He is not crying anymore - seems to be over it. We are having the "divorce talk" with the kids in a couple of days and he seems totally fine with it. I am starting to feel sad.

Thanks for sharing your stories, your advice - I really appreciate it.


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
PamJ
Member
Member # 40475
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, September 5th (Thursday)

FWIW I just read the 'contract' to my fWH and when I was done I asked him "What did he do wrong" (as we have been talking about what the 'right' things are to help rebuild trust and start to heal.

Without hesitating he said "He should have stopped after the first 5 items HE was going to do" and "He is in no position to be asking for something in return"

I have been giving him positive reinforcement for all the right things he is doing now.

I wish you were in the same place.

[This message edited by PamJ at 2:54 PM, September 5th (Thursday)]


Me: BS 50+
Him: WH 60

3 EAs

2 grown sons, 1 grown step-son

Last DDay, March 19, 2013 after a few weeks of TT- trying to have a new marriage after almost 35 years.
No more chances.


Posts: 56 | Registered: Aug 2013
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 12:40 AM, September 6th (Friday)

Thanks so much for reading the contract to your WH and posting about it, Pam. And thank you for the wishes. I am glad that your WH is getting it and you are moving forward.

Tonight, we were rehearsing the divorce talk that we're going to have with the kids and I started bawling when I got to the part about "we're sorry that even though these problems are between us, they will mean some changes for you."

Today, I have been thinking about the "silver lining" in D for the kids and there really isn't any. (Oh wait, I just thought of not showing them a dysfunctional relationship so that they don't end up in one). I was thinking that for me, the silver lining is starting fresh with a new person, knowing better what to look for, getting out of a toxic relationship, being a healthier person in a relationship, getting to date again, having EOW free to do whatever I want, etc. But for the kids, they have to shuttle between homes, they may feel like they have to choose between parents, they have to leave one parent to go see the other, they may feel like it is their fault, etc. I don't see any upside for them (except for the biggie I stated above, which I just realized).

Anyway, I started bawling, SAWH asked if he could put his arm around me, I said yes. He then said that we don't have to get D'd. He also said he didn't even know why I didn't like the contract. I laid it all out for him:

1-5 are what he needs to do just for me to stay M to him.

He doesn't get anything in "exchange for" 1-5.

He doesn't understand that a relationship is not always equal; you don't "give a to get b." There will be sacrifice. (To which he said, "And I always have to be the one to do the sacrificing." I said, "I"ve been sacrificing for 20 years. I've had a M with no love, no emotional intimacy and no sex for 20 years. and yes, right now you are the one who screwed up and you will have to do the sacrificing.")

He doesn't have a say in how much therapy me or my son get.

Additionally, he doesn't get to cut my IC and my son's IC and then say that he is going to take a trip to Vegas, where he cheated on me.

I am absolutely able to give him the 3rd degree about cash, the A, whatever I want (this won't last forever) - this is called communicating about our relationship and it is essential for healing. (For the record, I have been very calm through this all and don't scream, etc. He is VERY sensitive to criticism and feels that me merely questioning him about his cash expenditures is "giving him the third degree.")

He said that he spent 5 hours last weekend cataloging all his cash expenditures for July. He didn't tell me that he had done this. We talked about how there is to be little to no cash expenditures and no "loosey goosey" cash expenditures like "business expense," "hotel maid," "baby shower gift at work," etc.

We spoke about the no-go on the Vegas trip and the other trip. I asked him if wives were invited to the other trip (I already knew the answer and he has lied to me about other trips being "guys only") and to his credit, he didn't lie and said that wives were invited.

He said he would do all of the above.

So, what do you think?

[This message edited by numbandnauseous at 12:46 AM, September 6th (Friday)]


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 2:50 AM, September 6th (Friday)

Is this the first time he's ever agreed to do everything you want for R with no 'conditions' of his own? - If it is - then I would probably give him this one last chance if it were me - purely because he now knows that R is not 'negotiable' with you after his betrayal and he doesn't get to demand terms. If he wants to stay married to you he has to change his ways. That this really is the last chance saloon - and maybe he finally knows that now.


Also because if he's still early in his own CSAT therapy (is that correct? Sorry, I don't know the full details of your story, so disregard this advice if this is not so) but if he is still early in therapy then it gives that therapy a little more time to take some effect. Especially given that the Vegas trip is happening in the very near future - it's not that long to wait until you soon see how serious he is about changing his attitude and following your rules for R. But as I said earlier, I'm not up with all the details of your situation, this is purely my opinion based on this thread alone.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1880 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
PamJ
Member
Member # 40475
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, September 6th (Friday)

<<" There will be sacrifice. (To which he said, "And I always have to be the one to do the sacrificing." >>

This is the part that still bothers me. He is still resentful, he just does not get it. My WH stopped this attitude the minute he knew our M was on the verge of ending. He has not once acted like he is sacrificing anything for us to stay married. he has thanked me over and over again for giving him another chance.

I hope your WH gets it, but I have my doubts. It seems he is agreeing to whatever it takes to get you to stay in the M, but who knows how long that would last given his attitude.

[This message edited by PamJ at 8:21 AM, September 6th (Friday)]


Me: BS 50+
Him: WH 60

3 EAs

2 grown sons, 1 grown step-son

Last DDay, March 19, 2013 after a few weeks of TT- trying to have a new marriage after almost 35 years.
No more chances.


Posts: 56 | Registered: Aug 2013
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, September 6th (Friday)

Without hesitating he said "He should have stopped after the first 5 items HE was going to do" and "He is in no position to be asking for something in return"

Exactly this - I read the first five items and thought hey, this is pretty good. Then the rest of it was total crap. I'm sorry he handed you a load of crap and expected you to believe it was gold.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6805 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, September 6th (Friday)

((((N&N))))

This so sucks, he just keeps giving you just enough to keep you hanging on. I know this has to be incredibly hard. There's what I should do, and what I want to do.

It seems you have found your strong, and are not willing to tolerate any more crap from him, and are ready to show him the door should he falter again. But the reality of it is, I don't think he really truly gets it, he is just doing whatever he can to keep the status quo. He really feels he is giving up a lot. WTF?!?

I don't know I think I would still make him go, and then if he makes progress, and really starts to get it, you can always reevaluate, but you are showing your kids that MOM is incredibly strong, and demands respect. This will last the rest of your life.

((((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8691 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, September 6th (Friday)

You filed for D. That's a pretty open and shut statement there. If he wants to save his relationship with you then this is not the time to make demands like going out to play with buddies in the prostitute capital of the United States or Kindly Shut The Fuck Up About Asking After Money.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7469 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
eyesrnowopen
Member
Member # 39055
Default  Posted: 12:01 AM, September 9th (Monday)

Na&n

We are truly married to the same man. Same patterns. See what I posted on SA thread. Only mine is out of the house.

I had the talk tonight to file for D because he has not paid support and I can not rely on his whims of what he will pay.

He lashed out and made some comments meant to rattle me. I said we need to end this conversation as it is unproductive.

He now calls me and says he wants to sit down and sort out the finances and he will approve kids therapy. I told him we need to file so we each protect our assets, if we want to shelve the D and resume MC we can discuss it. Ughhhh he truly plays cat and mouse.


This is the work within, having control over the outcome of our lives. Robert Bly refers to this as “Warrior work.” A warrior fights for a cause, something he believes in. As opposed to a soldier who merely fights for control – power or profit.

Posts: 98 | Registered: Apr 2013
Topic Posts: 40