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User Topic: Must men always be unfaithful?
AStar
Member
Member # 39971
Default  Posted: 3:57 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

I grew up knowing my Dad had a long term affair and there was OC same age as me. He had various affairs when I grew up. I hated that there was always some other woman and my mother suffered through it. It left me deeply scarred.
My previous relationship ended when my boyfriend had an affair. I actually didnt know that I was the OW for a while as his wife left him and moved overseas. When I found out he had gotten D in secret. Big fight about it and then he had A. This ended in 2010. My current relationship is two years old and my husband had EA. I believe it wasnt PA- yet.
I feel like leaving him because he was unfaithful. He sort comfort and validation outside of our relationship.
Am I over reacting? Or am I punishing him now for my past? I couldn't control my Dads disgusting behavior, I didnt know about my ex boyfriend and his lies. I know about my husbands emotional infidelity and I can control what happens. Is this why I want a divorce? D-day was a month ago.


Me BS (41)
Him WH (45). EA and possible PA (denied)
D Day 7/21/2013
M 8 years - filing for D

**The cruelest lies are often told in silence- Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 115 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: New Zealand
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

No, men aren't always unfaithful. You have the terrible misfortune of being hurt repeatedly.

You aren't overreacting, especially if your WH was aware of your past situation wrt infidelity.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7407 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
SecondHelping
Member
Member # 36796
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Ditto,
It was my wife that had two affairs. Of course the OM cheated to, but not a women are single in affairs.


D-Day 1: Feb 1990 (2 yrs into M, kissing and a hickey)
D-Day 2: 3 Sep 2012 (3 month EA/3 week PA)
BS 49- Me, fWW 43- Her (Amibroken)
OP- Deputy Chief of Police from the town next to us! (Age 37)
Married 25 Years, Together 28
3 Kids (17, 14, 11)

Posts: 484 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Delmarva
Tred
Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

AStar,

It must seem that way from your perspective, but except in the case of same sex affairs (which do happen) for every cheating man/woman their is a member of the opposite sex participating. I know how you feel - I could of written the same post with respects to my mom, first wife, and current wife.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3833 | Registered: Dec 2011
simplydevastated
Member
Member # 25001
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

I'm sorry fit your pain. I know it can seem that way, but not men and not all women cheat. This site is proof of that.

I have a question. Are in IC? It seems like you're in a pattern. It seems to me that you're picking men with the same traits similar to your father. Do you know what I mean? It's like how some women bounce from one abusive relationship to another until they figure what's in them "making" (for lack of a better word) pick those men.

I hope I explained myself the right way.

(((Hugs)))


Me - BS, 39 (I'm not old...I'm vintage)
Two Wonderful children - DS10, DD7
Married, for now... (4+ D-Day - listed in profile.)

Posts: 5854 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: In the darkest depths of hell!
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

You are not overreacting. You are still dealing with unresolved issues from your childhood,but that doesn't mean what your husband did isn't wrong or a betrayal. He cheated on you.

Im curious as to why you think it wasn't physical?

You are very new..very raw. We recommned waiting 6 months to a year before making a big decision like divorce..but that also depends on how your WH is treating you right now.

Is he transparent?

Do you have full access to all of his accounts and his cell..passwords included?

Does he answer all of your questions without anger and blame?

Is he in IC to figure out his "why?" Ok..he needed validation..why? I can assure you his "why" is deeper than that.

Did he write a NC email to OW..and you sent it..so you know it wasn't altered?

Has he even gone NC with OW?

Has her BH been told?

Has he blocked her from being able to contact him? Does he own his shit?

Not all men cheat. We have some wonderful,faithful betrayed husbands here on SI. I understand why you think they all do..but not all of them do.

Welcome.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7253 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
MovingUpward
Guide
Member # 14866
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

You've obviously had a bad series of experiences, but there are many great men out there that have been nothing but faithful. A few have already posted to you on this thread.

As to your questions, there isn't a right path or wrong path as to staying or leaving. You need to decide what you are capable of doing. If you know you'll never be able to trust him again than leaving and moving on might be better. However you can choose to try and work through things. Maybe you can expand on your current feelings with your H. Do you love him? Do you feel this was a poor choice or that it is in his character to behave this way again? Do you know why he made the choice he made and what is he doing so that this situation doesn't happen again?


AKA Moo

Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.


Posts: 51803 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Big Blue Nation
letitout
Member
Member # 38288
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

I'm sorry that you have had so much of this in your life.

My Wh told me when I first found out about his infidelities that most people cheat and I was lucky that he didn't cheat until into our 24 year of M, so it was no big deal. Yes, he did say that. WTH! He now thinks otherwise after his head got out of his ars.

I believe that there are very good people out there that solve their problems in a better way.

Please be kind to yourself and know that it's not your fault. A good IC if you can go to one, will help in sorting through your emotions in having to deal with so much in your life.

And as another poster said, you don't have to make a decision right now to stay or go. Let it process first.


BW 55, WH 64
2 years of prostitutes.

Posts: 281 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: California
Heavy Sigh
Member
Member # 34243
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

In reading blogs about men and relationships to understand this gender - I know women cheat too but you asked about men - I think a too-high percentage of them cheat. Not all, but during a life line of a marriage, statistics show over 60 percent of them do.

Some cheat always. Some don't cheat and are good guys mostly, but seem to fall into affairs at certain crisis timelines of a marriage.

The new problem, some of which I think you've been experiencing, is technology. It caters to the ancient harem-building desires in the DNA of some males, part of a need to have every woman they've ever crushed on to love them the best of anyone else, forever, and to always be wanted sexually whether they want the women sexually in return or not.

Now, the problem is that young men these days rarely stop contacting their past girlfriends ever - no closure. They will walk down the aisle and marry with happy tears in their eyes and you'd think they are so in love with the bride. But he may have texted the "maybe I should have married you" to an old flame before walking down that aisle, and some of them have full EAs going on cell-phone or Facebook with girls ranging from high school crushes to college girlfriends to the young single co-workers or their first jobs. An EA is the ultimate slippery slope and sooner or later, a meet-up will occur.

In pre-technology days, people had to make a deliberate choice to cheat. No contact was the norm and ended an old girlfriend EA or relationship by distance, time and moving on in life. A guy couldn't call an old girlfriend at home or her husband and kids could answer the home phone. Same if old girlfriend called him. Couldn't ring phone late at night or everyone in the old flame's house heard the ring and asked about it. Boss would see phone bills at the office and throw a fit if long-distance charges were made to an employee's old flame

People still cheated (like on "Mad Men") but it was more of a deliberate choice rather than what seems to be an EA lifestyle for some young men.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 8:22 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1917 | Registered: Dec 2011
HardenMyHeart
Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

So sorry for what you are going through.

It sounds like the men in your current/past relationships are similar to your Father. It's not unusual for people to choose a partner similar to a parent, even when they have negative traits. Perhaps this is why you have had a pattern of men that behave like your Father. In other words, not all men are the same, but you are attracted to the same type of men.


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Posts: 5630 | Registered: Aug 2007
ArableSands
Member
Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, July 25th (Thursday)

Not this man. Through dating, three serious relationships and nearly 10 years of marriage, I have never ever cheated on any woman I have been involved with.

Men like myself are not uncommon. Take heart. We're out there.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yes, I believe all men cheat. Men are visual in their sexuality and naturally attracted to beautiful women. Sex starts in the "mind" and an unchecked mind can turn lust into actions.
My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!
The male brain can not tell the difference between "looking"..i,..e..(visually) at a woman and completing the sex act and actually "physically" being with a woman and completing the sex act. His mind and brain can not tell the difference and will respond the same..this is what research has proven.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yes, I believe all men cheat. Men are visual in their sexuality and naturally attracted to beautiful women. Sex starts in the "mind" and an unchecked mind can turn lust into actions.
My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!
The male brain can not tell the difference between "looking"..i,..e..(visually) at a woman and completing the sex act and actually "physically" being with a woman and completing the sex act. His mind and brain can not tell the difference and will respond the same..this is what research has proven.

Well screw it then. I'll just go ahead and move myself to the wayward forum.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 1:46 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 1:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63...

I realize that you're brand new, but please read the forum guidelines (to the left in the yellow box) and refrain from generalizing.

It's very hurtful and terribly unfair to say something like that when we have a large community of very faithful men that post on this site.

Thank you.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196998 | Registered: May 2002
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I would also like to add...

What had been missing in my relationship with my SAWH was "intimacy". I, as a woman, crave it... It is a "need" not just a want.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Come back,wonderboy! Come back!


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7253 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yes, I believe all men cheat.

That's got to be super hurtful to the men who come here shortly after having their hearts ripped out and handed to them.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6629 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I guess I can still post in here , but does this mean I am now forbidden from posting in JFO?

I am so confused by my new status.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

DS,

I in no way meant to offend. I can only say what "I" personally believe.

I will refrain from sharing my belief's in the future.

I apologize to anyone if my personal point of view offended you. Please understand it was only "my" point of view.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
simplydevastated
Member
Member # 25001
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yes, I believe all men cheat. Men are visual in their sexuality and naturally attracted to beautiful women. Sex starts in the "mind" and an unchecked mind can turn lust into actions.
My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!
The male brain can not tell the difference between "looking"..i,..e..(visually) at a woman and completing the sex act and actually "physically" being with a woman and completing the sex act. His mind and brain can not tell the difference and will respond the same..this is what research has proven.


Me - BS, 39 (I'm not old...I'm vintage)
Two Wonderful children - DS10, DD7
Married, for now... (4+ D-Day - listed in profile.)

Posts: 5854 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: In the darkest depths of hell!
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63, in no way are you being told not to share your thoughts feelings or opinion. Its your opinion and you have a right to that. BUT if a bh said," all women are cheaters" would you be offended? Would you think thats an unfair generalization of women?

Im just sayin'....not trying to step on any toes.


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
ArableSands
Member
Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I apologize to anyone if my personal point of view offended you.

That's called a "not-pology" Monica. You apologize that you offended, not that your statement is offensive. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it free from being criticized.

If you lump men like me in with men who are actually unfaithful, you're going to live a very, very lonely life.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Well...in my opinion not all men cheat and Not all women cheat.

BUT....

Its a Fact: women cheat, men cheat...people cheat...but not all people cheat.

I dont trust people..but its more a fear of being fooled by either gender.


You just cant generalize like that about men or women. Its not logical or factual
Edited cuz wanted to clarify..

[This message edited by sunflowergirl30 at 2:43 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
Jennifer99
Member
Member # 39551
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I was going to post here the following:

Well - I'm way too familiar with too many cheating men so I might tend to agree with you EXCEPT - some of my best friends are men who are constantly asking me "why do all women cheat" and I want to smack them so *I* can't think the same thing can I?

Then I thought my would be inappropriate and saw some other wiser people had posted things like - unless they are same sex cheating there is always a male and female involved so....

Sometimes when you are very hurt and trying to explain things in words typed, not conversation, it is hard to not step on toes and if you feel pretty comfy here just letting all your angst out and questions like this are in your head and we're supposed to be understanding and helpful...

well what a mess!

I sometimes had the same thoughts as you. I am happy I had friends and family to remind me not everyone is bad, look for the good - be careful, be wise, but believe it is there.

That is where I am now.

Instead of looking for relationships I'm paying more attention to "individuals" and interactions instead - it even makes work easier.

Everyone is so different generalizations are impossible.

Its nice when you see things and have a "aha! not alone!" moment - there are trends, traits, categories, etc. but really everyone is themselves.

When you are in such a bad place yourself it is HARD to remember that.


Posts: 556 | Registered: Jun 2013
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

sunflowergirl,

No, I wouldn't be offended. But there again, that's just me. (sigh)

We all have our own life experiences to draw upon when forming opinions and belief's. I am an honest person...sometimes without tact in my expressions.

My "generalization" is the result of my "own" experiences and no one else. I can see where I should have stated that in my post as this was my meaning. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
nomoreplease
Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!

I think maybe you need to look at this a little closer, because if this is your definition I think everyone is guilty. You say:
What had been missing in my relationship with my SAWH was "intimacy". I, as a woman, crave it... It is a "need" not just a want.
Can you honestly say you have never had a single THOUGHT about having this ‘intimacy’ with anyone besides your WH? You have never CONSIDERED sharing just a little more than you should? If not, then per your own words you are guilty of an EA, at least.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 401 | Registered: Jul 2011
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Think of all the shoes I'm guilty of cheating with now.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6347 | Registered: Jan 2011
Bikingguy
Member
Member # 38103
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

AStar,

I personally broader my comment to why does it seem I am surrounded by A's

I caught my dad at a pay phone one weekend and a few months later they divorced. - Since my own D day I have new hatred for what my dad did to my mom.

My first girl friend cheated on me with my best friend. I have one friend at school and we used to eat lunch together. POS would actually ask me how it was going with girlfriend! Oh forgot that same girlfriend admitted to me that she cheated on a previous boy friend. Yes major red flag, but I was young and she was my first.

Another friend of mine cheated on his wife. He got caught because the next door neighbor heard his phone conversations in her baby monitor.
To this day this is the funniest (not in a ha ha way) way I have heard about getting caught.

Now, wife of 16 years admits after getting caught to a 15 year A. I have decided to R and while it is going pretty good, I am expecting the other shoe to fall and really am not sure what I will do it if happens again?

So I seem to be surrounded by such weak ass people! I am no Saint, and have things I can improve, but I cannot begin to understand how you commit an A.


Me: BH, 44
Her: WW, 43
D day. January 12, 2013

Posts: 670 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Socal
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

nomoreplease,

Nope, I can honestly say I haven't lusted after any man. My father was a sex addict and I have had 3 sex addicted husbands... I have been pretty much turned off by sexually aggressive people all my life. Sex addiction has caused much pain in my life. I am working on recovery with my SAH now because instead of running away, I am choosing to face and for once in my over come this type of pain that has been a constant in my life since I was a child.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
jo2love
Moderator
Member # 31528
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

ArableSands -

In the future, if you have a question or concern, pm a mod. Leave the modding to the mods. Thank you.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:07 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Posts: 34428 | Registered: Mar 2011
nomoreplease
Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I can honestly say I haven't lusted after any man
What is your definition of lusting?


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 401 | Registered: Jul 2011
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My father was a sex addict and I have had 3 sex addicted husbands... I have been pretty much turned off by sexually aggressive people all my life
.

I am not trying to be snide, but something needs to be examined here. I am no expert in this, but when you state that you have been turned off by sexually aggressive people pretty much all your life, does it mesh with the fact that you have surrounded yourself with (as you put it) sex addicts?

Admittedly, I don't know crap about Sex addicts, but it would seem to me that you equate mental thoughts with an individual being "sexually aggressive." It would follow then that a sex addict would be a sexually aggressive person.


I am working on recovery with my SAH now because instead of running away

Leaving a toxic individual isn't running away, it's running towards being healthy. It's one thing to try to help someone, but you can't change your husband, only he can. If a wayward isn't capable or willing to change, "running away" may be the healthiest thing that a person can do.
Hell, even if a person is willing to do everything to change into a safe spouse, there is no shame in leaving a relationship that has had its trust and foundation willingly destroyed.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 3:17 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63, We are all on here because infidelity/betrayal has touched our lives in some way. A lot of pain going on here. Im sure i have offended others during my years here since I joined in 2010 of July.

It saddens me deeply at the thought of all the people out there struggling ALONE through the mess of infidelity.

Only you know the experiences that have shaped your opinions. I want to validate that. Maybe some bh's here on SI will help change that view. See your pain and help you see that not all men hurt, betray.

Hope im not offending you. If it wasnt for this place. Somedays i would be so lost. If it wasnt for other betrayed spouses support id be so very lost.


Shout out to sistermilkshake


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My definition of "lusting" is thinking about, fantasizing about, desiring another man besides my husband in any (physical, emotional, intimate way).
I have always tried to be what "I" desired from,.. and be what "I" would want myself,... from a husband. In other words, I give in a relationship what I want in a relationship for myself. Integrity (honesty) is at the top of my list. If it is anything other than that ...whats the point to my mind?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

wonderboy,

I don't consider it snide, I think it a very valid question.
I haven't gone out of my way to "seek" out sex addicts to marry. I have actually questioned myself why this keeps showing up in my life. I think this is more of an "intimacy" issue now more than ever. I think this is why I am here reading about other peoples experience and exploring this possibility.

My SAH is doing IC and we are working on the SA issues, where they came from, why SA is used as a drug, and how we can apply this to our lives as an "improvement" instead of a detriment.

I had to learn how men "think" about sex and intimacy because it is different for me in the ways I think about it.

I struggle with many issues regarding how the men I have loved have hurt me with their sexual addiction ...as a woman it directly affects me on all fronts. Treating women as "objects" to be used and discarded, their worth evaluated as how they can "benefit" a mans sexual desire... just isn't ok with me. I have been told by many IC that "it has nothing to do with me"...(my response)...Really?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
gma56
Member
Member # 19595
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I know about my husbands emotional infidelity and I can control what happens. Is this why I want a divorce? D-day was a month ago.
For some of us BSs, infidelity is an automatic deal breaker. If that is how it you feel then it's the right decision for you.
With what you lived through as a child,I would say some serious digging into yourself is needed.
I didn't have infidelity in my family growing up but had two marriages end because of infidelity. I'm now working on my issues that attracted me to such broken people and why I ignored the red flags.

I'm a good person and believe the best in people but I also need my personal boundaries in place and solid. I lost that during my 25+ yr marriage.
Big Hugs . I do believe an EA is just as painful and bad as a PA.
ETA: I don't believe all men are cheaters or women either. I know too many that wouldn't think of cheating as a solution to problems in the relationship or entitlement.
Gma

[This message edited by gma56 at 3:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


BW-Divorced
It's my life now, my choices, my mistakes to make and my victories to celebrate. His choices made me free of liars and betrayers in my life. I lost my family but gained a second chance to be happy.

Posts: 20340 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Half way to where I want to be.
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My Dad was unfaithful...but for every unfaitful man their is an unfaithful woman.

Before adultery entered my marriage I, too, felt this was a "man only" issue.

Now I see how short sided my thinking was. Who did I think these men were sleeping with? In my personal experience with adultery, my wife was an equal partner. I work with a married girl who I consider to be the an aggressive partner to infidelity. I also work with a once married, no divorced because of his multiple affiars boy that seeks this as well...any surprise they got together?

I feel your pain and am sorry your experience around men has been so poor. Do not give into the false assumption that all men are cheaters...that will prohibit you from some very fullfilling relationship while in this world. And you stand as good a chance as the next person to have a fullfilling relationship with a man if you remain open to it. And, dang, I know that is hard to do when you see the statistics out there with regards to the high rate of infidelity and combine it with the multiple hurts you have experiencef personally in your own life. But God desires us to rise above our past...not get stuck there...and grow into the child he intends for all of us. He has the same desirs for WS too. I also pray they dont get stuck there and judge their future by their past.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:54 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3577 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

ETA: This has been a total T/J to the Original Poster, sorry. I will be done after this.

Monica-


I had to learn how men "think" about sex and intimacy because it is different for me in the ways I think about it.

But what's the paradigm of a man for you? Is it the father figure or the other sex addicts in your life? Or is it all men in general? If it's based on the SA model, then your version of "how men think" isn't going to be applicable to other men. Even if your model of how men think isn't based on a SA mind, how can your conclusions not be jaded by your entire life experience of being raised and subsequently married to sex addicts?

I'm just pointing out that your conclusion on "how men think" may be skewed.

I definitely think that we, as individuals have different thoughts about sex and intimacy. After all, my wife thinks (thought) it was perfectly o.k. to sleep with another married man..and I disagreed with her on this little point.

I have been told by many IC that "it has nothing to do with me"

It doesn't.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 3:55 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I had to learn how (the) men (in MY life)"think" about sex and intimacy because it is different for me in the ways I think about it.

fixed it for ya

[This message edited by stilllovingher at 3:55 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2403 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

sunflowergirl,

Yes, We all have had so much pain in our lives. This is what we share. I hope to grow from the pain in my life and not allow it to "own" me.

I have paid the price to gain some wisdom from all of this, sometimes in a fetal position in the corner, wondering "why"?

It is so easy to love...why not "choose" love? That has always been "my" question.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
nomoreplease
Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My definition of "lusting" is thinking about, fantasizing about, desiring another man besides my husband in any (physical, emotional, intimate way).
So where are the cutoffs for all of these things? I would guess that you think about other men in some form quite often. What constitutes fantasizing? Is this just thinking about someone fondly (I would guess you have done this)? Or does it have to be full on sexual? What is ‘desiring’? Can it just be hearing that a friends H did [insert whatever you desire] and thinking, ‘I wish my H would do that’ (which I would guess you have done)? Or again does it have to be full on sexual?

The thing is you are making this very black and white, and using one aspect of men (the fact that they are generally more visual) to throw them into the black.

Treating women as "objects" to be used and discarded, their worth evaluated as how they can "benefit" a mans sexual desire...
This may be true for a SA, but it is far from true for all men. I know many men that would kick the crap out of anyone they saw treating a woman like this.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 401 | Registered: Jul 2011
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

stilllovingher,

Fanks...


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Housefulloflove
Member
Member # 38458
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

My father had affairs throughout my parent's 14 year marriage. It scarred me greatly. One of the things Ex and I talked about many times over the course of our marriage was the strong feelings I have about cheaters, how much my father's exit-affair with my mother's friend changed my relationship with him (and it never recovered), how I've never seen a relationship that didn't involve cheating and how he was *literally* the only man I know who hasn't cheated on his wife.

And every time the subject of cheaters/cheating came up he made sure to boast about how HE was a better man!

One of the things that I'm trying to work through is not letting what Ex did become confirmation that all men are cheating assholes. I had that opinion when I met him, made him the exception and now have to have faith that although he is NOT that exception, there ARE in fact good and faithful men.


[This message edited by Housefulloflove at 4:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Me-29 Starting over
ExWH-29 Probable NPD, PA, manchild
3 beautiful young children
DDay 1/20/13 Admits PA
No remorse so NO R. DIVORCED! 9/2013

Posts: 541 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: USA
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

nomoreplease,

The "cut off" would be in an "intimate" way. In other words if I would have to be embarrassed by anything I said, thought or did in front of him...it is just not OK to do, think, fantasize about. How could I in all good conscious, expect from my husband, what "I" would not be willing to do myself? I promised to be faithful, I live up to it. If I didn't mean it, I wouldn't say it...and certainly wouldn't "promise" it.

From my perspective...what would be the point?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

no problem,
I understand where ur coming from.
at one point I truly believed (and this may be offensive) that all Hispanic males would like to sleep with my FWW...
...That most any military person would jump at the chance...
because FWW picked a Hispanic former marine(I think) for her AP.

Eventually we have to face these demons, or they will take hold. We have to see these beliefs for the lies that they are, and reject them.

you said:

It is so easy to love...why not "choose" love? That has always been "my" question

I cant tell you I know what exactly "love" is, and all it entails, but I will say one thing about it...love is truth.

so, my challenge for you, AStar and Monica63 is this:
Choose truth.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2403 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

wonderboy, you said: "But what's the paradigm of a man for you? Is it the father figure or the other sex addicts in your life? Or is it all men in general?"

It has been every man I have ever "loved". This is why I try to emphasize "MY" opinion, experience, perspective ...etc...I have no other perspective to draw upon..


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
aesir
Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Sounds like your FOO issues have lead to you using a broken picker.

It's not uncommon for someone with a childhood issue to try and find a similar person in their adult life to try and work out the issues with a different outcome. Not sure if that ever really works though.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

The short answer to your question is: NO. It is NOT the case that men MUST ALWAYS be unfaithful.

It seems to me that your issue has more to do with SA than with 'men'.

You know there are SA women too, don't you? And SA gays? So being cheated on by your life partner is NOT just something that men do to women. Women do it to men (there have been SA WW members here on this site), men do it to men, women to women, it can appear in any configuration.

From what I understand, SA has to do, at least partly, with intimacy avoidance. You say that you need intimacy because you are a woman. Well there are men that need intimacy as well. They're just not SA.

I think that what many have found so offensive about your statements is that (a) they are blanket generalizations and most definitely do NOT apply to everyone (haven't you seen how many BH there are here - and NOT all from PA, there are EA issues for many men as well), and (b) many of them do not even seem to be true.

I urge you to try to be more aware of the diversity of infidelity experiences here.

There have been several really good questions posed to you to help you to start digging and working on fixing YOU - not least by wonderboy. You will make better progress toward your healing by working to figure out what it is about you that seeks/finds/accepts SA men - or at least why you don't decide to avoid them like the plague.


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
re-separated (in-house), for good (??) <-- should really remove these, shouldn't I...

Posts: 2541 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

It has been every man I have ever "loved". This is why I try to emphasize "MY" opinion, experience, perspective ...etc...I have no other perspective to draw upon..

I am not trying to criticize you or your opinion at all.

What I am trying to do is point out that your version of what men think, is probably a very skewed version (having been based on your interactions with SA men). I am not pointing this out as a blast to a generalization, I am pointing this out as something that maybe you need to be cognizant of in your healing, dealing with this mess, and in your interactions with male figures going forward. Whether or not it is with your current husband or someone else in the future.

I think your past experiences with men, and the fact that you have been married to three SA's (whether by accident or by choice) may be something that could be addressed through IC or reflection.

END T/J I promise.

To address the original poster:
No, not all men cheat. My father didn't and to my knowledge neither did either of my brothers. Interestingly enough, all three of the brothers have been cheated on by their wives.

And no, I don't think all women cheat either.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 4:44 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

DeadMumWalking, you said: "There have been several really good questions posed to you to help you to start digging and working on fixing YOU "

Sorry, but to be repeatedly told..."it has nothing to do with you"..by IC's and others....and then have yet others tell me (basically)...It is ALL about YOU...
can leave a person in quite a conundrum if you know what I mean?

No, I do not take responsibility for my fathers SA or any of my husbands SA addiction problems.
I look at it this way, If I can't make you be "good", I sure as heck can't make you be "bad". Just my thoughts anyway.

There are no quick fixes to anything, just a choice of whether or not to try (given all the information) to apply what has hurt you in your life into becoming a better person because of it.

My goal is to learn as much as I can about forgiveness/forgiving as this has been my greatest challenge so far.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63, i really like this;


"I look at it this way, If I can't make you be "good", I sure as heck can't make you be "bad". Just my thoughts anyway."


I think its very spot on. Its all about choice.


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

stilllovingher: you said: "
I cant tell you I know what exactly "love" is, and all it entails, but I will say one thing about it...love is truth."

My definition of "love".. Love is making the choice and decision to love.
Love is not unconditional and comes with great responsibility. Love is more than a "feeling" it is a "knowing" and a state of "being". Love is a verb not a description of a noun...Love is an "action" not based on self but a deep affection based in truth. Love is trust, faith and hope all put in action. Love is empathy and respect in giving and sharing all of this with another. Love is "exclusive" in an intimate relationship called marriage, and set apart for just these reasons.

This is my definition to the best of my ability to explain it.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I think u may have missed my point...'sokay, it took me about 4 years to challenge those strongholds enough to break them.

I wouldn't consider it to be a top priority in the early stages of recovery. I started challenging it only when the beliefs started bothering me.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2403 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

wonderboy, you said: " I am not pointing this out as a blast to a generalization, I am pointing this out as something that maybe you need to be cognizant of in your healing, dealing with this mess, and in your interactions with male figures going forward. Whether or not it is with your current husband or someone else in the future. "


Oh, (sigh) I know exactly what you are saying and believe me, if I did not hold out hope ..there would not have been *3* marriages.

Because I have had to do intensive (extensive)studies based upon SA to understand how the male brain works "differently" from my own being a female...(The "experts" explain how the mind of a SA works and why)...

The information helps me to understand how to deal with the "side" effects I am dealing with being in a marital relationship with a SA.

The brain produces chemicals similar to cocaine in SA. It is a cocktail of endorphins, dopamine...etc

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had. These chemicals were intended to bond a man with his wife. When a man misuses sex....he damages himself with the inability to bond correctly with his spouse.

See how clinical it all is?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

stilllovingher,

I know, can you imagine how I felt knowing my husband was looking at porn and imagining having sex with hundreds of other women? My hurt when he hired escorts to have sex with? Going to strip clubs to be tit-ilated? (pun intended)

I have always been considered a very attractive woman and I still am. I have good self esteem and I am by no means stupid. SA destroys everything a woman wishes to "gift" her husband with.

So do I understand your point...yes, the similarities of being rejected for what is the "best gift" we have to offer of ourselves..is what crushes both our spirits and pains our hearts beyond measure.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I do understand, our brains are not so different afterall. You sound so hurt right now, crushed as you said. I'm not so far removed from this storm that I can't remember how that goes...it sucks!

I think the key for you will lie in differentiation, you are more than this M, more than a W, and certainly more than a BW.
You've been through this before, it takes time, I know.
Maybe try putting less emphasis on how HIS mind works, and more on how YOURS works, its incredibly freeing.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2403 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63, I haven't done the extensive research you have. May I ask for clarification on this?

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had

Are those chemicals released when women have sex? Or is it exclusive to men?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1089 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
gahurts
Member
Member # 33699
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Because I have had to do intensive (extensive)studies based upon SA to understand how the male brain works "differently" from my own being a female...(The "experts" explain how the mind of a SA works and why)...

The information helps me to understand how to deal with the "side" effects I am dealing with being in a marital relationship with a SA.

The brain produces chemicals similar to cocaine in SA. It is a cocktail of endorphins, dopamine...etc

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had. These chemicals were intended to bond a man with his wife. When a man misuses sex....he damages himself with the inability to bond correctly with his spouse.

See how clinical it all is?

It's unsettling how you break this down to men's behavior vs women's behavior.

XWW was only interested in the sex act. I was begging for intimacy.

XWW blew apart our family while I was trying to find a way to keep us together.

She was selfishly focused on herself while I was trying to nurture our children through the mess and not expose them to more drama then they had to endure.

You have ascibed your experiences to "how men think and act". I am very sorry that you have been hurt so bad throughout your life, but the thoughts and behaviors you are discussing are not men vs. women. It's broken individuals vs healthy ones, Waywards vs faithful spouses.

[This message edited by gahurts at 7:41 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indominable will" - Mahatma Gandi

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - Aubrie


Posts: 3377 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Georgia
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Yes, I believe all men cheat. Men are visual in their sexuality and naturally attracted to beautiful women. Sex starts in the "mind" and an unchecked mind can turn lust into actions.
My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!
The male brain can not tell the difference between "looking"..i,..e..(visually) at a woman and completing the sex act and actually "physically" being with a woman and completing the sex act. His mind and brain can not tell the difference and will respond the same..this is what research has proven.

No, there's no actual research for that, honestly. There's not even any actual neurological research wrt sexual addiction as a neurological basis, in fact (I'm not saying there is no such thing, mind, those behaviors certainly do exist and are very real). Any research that is cited is correlation taken from other studies.

I'm fairly certain it's been addressed but what you said there is factually wrong. While I can't argue that you believe all men cheat - it's what you believe - I can pretty easily deconstruct anything put forward as actual hard proof.

If we look at that philosophically then we're all murderers as well - and the female mind isn't different enough from the male to say "It's not the same."

The truth is that thinking things and doing things are different, and it's a lesson we learn as children. In fact, one of the most important lessons we learn is that there is a reality outside our heads that is not affected by our thoughts. Theory of mind is an expansive and interesting topic but it's cogent in the sense that thinking != doing.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7407 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

20WrongsVS1,

I can list the books I have read about SA as well if you want me to?
Sex Addiction and Substance Abuse

Newsweek reported that there are 9 million sex addicts in the United States and at least 40 million Americans log onto 4.2 million pornographic websites daily. The growing speed of sex addiction may be attributed to the easy access to all things explicit found on the internet. The internet is accessible in many different forms and sex and/or porn addicts can access their drugs of choice from various sources of technology throughout the day.
Sex Changes Brain Chemistry

Much like a drug addict, a sex addict is also dependent on chemical changes in the brain which produce a euphoric feeling. Having an orgasm produces a neurochemical change in the limbic system of the brain. The limbic system is responsible for emotions, drives, impulses, desires, decision making, happiness and survival. Dopamine is the primary neurochemical that activates your reward circuitry. It can be released through various activities which include but are not exclusive to sex, eating, taking risks and even drinking water. Once the reward activity is ceased, dopamine activates cravings for it. For example, dopamine will create a motivation for eating chocolate cake because consuming chocolate cake activates natural opiods found in the brain which produce “feel good” sensations. Dopamine is never satisfied and continues to crave opiods. Regarding sex, dopamine drives the desire for an orgasm; however, it is opioids that are responsible for the production of the orgasm. Addictive activities and substances strongly increase dopamine levels unnaturally. Deregulation of dopamine levels happens through various activities such as:

Cocaine use
Encountering extremely attractive casino hostesses
Clicking through porn
Eating junk food filled with fat and sugar
The correlation between activities that elicit dopamine and the feelings that they produce can cause an addict to continually engage in self-defeating activities. Tolerance builds as a result of repetitive behavior and the addict needs to increase the rate of behavior to achieve the desired euphoric effect. The cycle of addiction is perpetuated by the physical and psychological cravings produced by the addiction.

There is more to this article but I am not sure how to post the website?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

continued...
Sex Addiction

Having sex is not addictive but the chemical changes that take place in the brain during sex are highly addictive. The desire for this change in brain chemistry is what drives an addict to do things that would be considered out of character.

Such at risk behaviors include:

Unsafe sex
Consistent use of pornography
Use of prostitutes and/or escorts
Use of dating ads for sexual hookups
Sexualizing all conversations
Crossing sexual boundaries with coworkers, friends and acquaintances

One indicator that an underlying sexual addiction may be present is when someone is willing to continue engaging in risky behaviors that have negative consequences. For example, a husband will lie to his wife in order to get a free hour to meet an escort for sex. After the act, he feels tremendous shame, guilt and remorse about his behavior. Over time, the negative feelings decrease and he acts out again not because he wants to sleep with other women, but to satisfy the dopamine cravings for excitement, risk and satisfaction of sexual urges. The husband is not looking to have affairs, he is seeking sex. Sex addicts are not looking to have a relationship with the individual they are acting out with.

Sex addicts often make impulsive decisions based on insatiable urges that are very similar to drug or alcohol cravings. Consequences of impulsive decisions related to sex addiction may include:

Loss of job
Loss of relationships
Contraction of sexually transmitted diseases
Sexual dysfunction.

Oftentimes, sex addicts will also use drugs and/or alcohol to escape from uncomfortable feelings and the reality of dealing with the consequences of their addiction.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
sunflowergirl30
Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 8:22 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Scary...


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1058 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

stillgoing, you said: "No, there's no actual research for that, honestly. There's not even any actual neurological research wrt sexual addiction as a neurological basis, in fact (I'm not saying there is no such thing, mind, those behaviors certainly do exist and are very real). Any research that is cited is correlation taken from other studies."

I strongly disagree. I have read many books regarding this. Dr. Doug Weiss (especially) explains it very well.

THE CHEMICALS BEHIND THE ADDICTION...

Just imagine you’re shredding the slopes as a foot of awesome powder flies up around you. Now you’re face to face with someone, experiencing the anticipation just before your lips touch theirs for the first time. Now you’re base-jumping with the wind rushing at your body as you free fall towards the ground. And now you’re alone, looking at pornography on your computer.

Every day you have experiences like these, but one of these things is not like the others. Check out how this works—there are four main chemicals your body produces that help you feel good: Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, and Serotonin. Now I know this isn’t chemistry class, so we’ll keep this simple. When you’re out doing what you do, your brain releases these chemicals to give you a rush, or make you bond with people or remember the details of a moment.

While the chemicals are busy helping you feel good, your body and mind are linking that feeling to what you’re doing. Basically, it’s these chemicals, and the associations they reflect, that keep you coming back for more. Now that’s cool when the experiences are good things like adventures, or hobbies, or healthy sex, but when the experience is viewing pornography, the end result can get pretty ugly.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

sunflowergirl,

Yes, it is scary and heartbreaking all in one!


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:37 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

continued...
5 Brain Chemicals in Healthy Sexual Act and How it is Different from Pornography Addiction

In his book The Drug of the New Millennium, the Brain Science Behind Internet Pornography Use, Mark B. Kastleman (founder of Candeo Can program) provides a very detailed description of the process that takes place inside a pornography viewer’s brain. In order to understand these processes, the author first examines how the brain is designed to work in a healthy sexual relationship. Then he compares it to brain activity during the pornography viewing session.

The Narrowing Process of the Healthy Marriage

In a healthy marital relationship, sexual intimacy creates powerful physical, emotional, and chemical changes:
The Narrowing Process of Internet Porn

When an individual enters the funnel through pornography viewing, the physical and chemical processes are virtually identical to those in marital sexual intimacy, but with some radical differences…

Sadly, sexual addiction is real and yes, it does affect the brain.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

There's been some interesting developments on SA. UCLA stating not much evidence for it and removed from DSM IV. I know that there are folks that have real issues so am not disputing that. Just stating there may be conflicting research, kind of like everything.

Think it's more an intimacy issue than anything else, but an admittedly very pedestrian opinion on my part.

Pretty much everything we do can produce chemical changes. Hobbies, hell even shopping.

No studies to back this up, just my view. Women cheat just as much as men and for many of the same reasons.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

I strongly disagree. I have read many books regarding this. Dr. Doug Weiss (especially) explains it very well.

You can disagree if you like, but it there is zero evidence to support the idea that SA functions similarly to chemical addiction.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201307/new-brain-study-questions-existence-sexual-addiction


I thought there were already brain studies of sex addiction?

Surprisingly, no one has previously examined their brain in action. A few research groups included “porn addicts” in brain imaging studies of internet use problems, but none of those researchers actually analyzed the sex group separately. A couple of research groups published small structural brain studies, which means images of the brain when it is not doing anything in particular. We have colleagues in Germany who are currently writing the first fMRI results of their hypersexual patients, so anticipate more research in this area soon.

The results of the fMRI studies will be especially telling either way, and could bear out the idea that SA is similar neurologically to chemical dependency, but otherwise there is no real data. Scare sites like "your brain on porn" are uninformed and junk science sites that do far more harm than help, in that they deter people who really are suffering from getting the appropriate care, which in this case should be behavioral.

As many chemical dependency detox follow behavioral therapies it's not surprising the same structure would help, but following the wrong avenue of reasoning eventually just hits a wall and allows for a cycle. There is no magic drug here. It's still a significant unknown, and anyone who claims to be a definitive expert on a subject this murky is IMO either cashing in at the expense of people in real pain, or far too arrogant.

Chemical changes *do* happen, but as UO said, they can happen from anything - behavioral modification of the brain is part and parcel of therapies like CBT and EMDR. Actually, it's also why talk it out therapy is poison, because it continually revisits and reinforces a trauma, burning that into the brain even more.

Pretty much everything we do can produce chemical changes. Hobbies, hell even shopping.

No studies to back this up, just my view.

There are studies for that, iirc, a lot of CBT and EMDR are built off them.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7407 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
nuance
Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 9:20 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

What UO said. In fact, I think the odds are stacked against everyone. It's like playing Blackjack and the house has the edge. In other words, see my signature.


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1196 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Monica63, your topic title poses a question about men. Which is why when you wrote this...

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had. These chemicals were intended to bond a man with his wife

...you appeared to be invoking these chemicals to support your opinion that men are predisposed to cheating. I asked if women are affected by the chemicals also; you didn't answer. But your documentation provides the answer, thanks, because AFAIK none of it mentions gender. Do the chemical reactions occur in sexual addicts? IDK, but that wasn't your point, nor was your original question, "Must sex addicts always be unfaithful?"

It must be sad for you to walk down the street and regard every man as a filthy cheater. I hope someday you can disabuse yourself of that notion.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1089 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

Some of us, despite the sticks and stones of outrageous misfortune, stay true. There's only going to be one person looking out from behind my eyeballs. I really want to like what I see.

For the record, my profile name fits. Five long term relationships(Defined as greater than 2 years *exclusivity*), 5 cheating women. Might it not be apropos for me to reverse the gender and ask the same question?

I fully realize that this is not the case. I am attracted to *fixer uppers* evidently. If you wish, a KISA complex. I need to fix ME. I picked them.

This is the first time I have attempted R. (Thanks to this site). I do love my FWW. I hope she's up to making the changes in herself that allow her to address her issues. Believe me, I'm making changes to address mine. It won't, no can't, be the same M it was before D-day.

Strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2666 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 11:51 PM, July 25th (Thursday)

No, I do not take responsibility for my fathers SA or any of my husbands SA addiction problems.

I don't think that's what ANYONE (and certainly I) was saying.

Of course you're not responsible for their behaviors and choices. But you ARE responsible for YOURS. You are 'always' (according to you) ending up with SA men. Why is that? And it is hurting you. What is it in YOU that needs changing so that you are better able to start treating yourself better and avoid this type of man?


There are no quick fixes to anything, just a choice of whether or not to try (given all the information) to apply what has hurt you in your life into becoming a better person because of it.

Well I never said fixing yourself was quick!!

But 'becoming a better person' is more like what I meant when I said fixing yourself. NOT so that you will stop 'making' all those men around you SA , but so that you become a better and happier you. THAT'S the message here, sorry you got the wrong end of the stick.

[This message edited by DeadMumWalking at 11:52 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
re-separated (in-house), for good (??) <-- should really remove these, shouldn't I...

Posts: 2541 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 12:09 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Sorry, but to be repeatedly told..."it has nothing to do with you"..by IC's and others....and then have yet others tell me (basically)...It is ALL about YOU...
can leave a person in quite a conundrum if you know what I mean?

I think what people are saying is that you didn't make them cheat, (it's not about you) but you chose people who had a propensity to cheat (it's all about you.)

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 1:14 AM, July 26th (Friday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
standinghere
Member
Member # 34689
Default  Posted: 3:23 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Monica63

If all men cheat, then all women must be faithful.

I should apologize to my wife for my wayward ways that led to her sucking another mans cock in our garage and fucking him in our bed while she distracted the kids with a video, and blowing him in a public place and having sex in his and his wife's bed while their kids were at school and she was at work, and then having sex with him in a strangers house as well as in a local business where he worked, and in the woods near where we live, and in a parking lot.

My behavior is so shameful for causing this upheaval in our lives while I was at work.

OR

Perhaps you need to understand that misandry, which is what your views are, is no better than misogyny. They are both equally abhorrent behaviors.


BH - Me - Late 30's (now late 40's)
WW - Her - Late 30's (now late 40's)
4 Children
Her - Love of my life...still is.
Reconciled - Partly...she can't get over it.
Her - Thunderstruck by what she did.

Posts: 926 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: USA
AStar
Member
Member # 39971
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, July 26th (Friday)

Thank you to everyone for all their personal insights and for the debate. I read it all and take away some of my own conclusions. Some of them may seem simplistic, but it is what I choose to take away from the duscussion, information, generously shared hard won insights...
I choose to acknowledge that not all men cheat. Even with my rough experience with infidelity it is not a choice for me. I also believe that not all men cheat. I do believe that cheating is a choice. You choose to cheat. It is an active decision made by a man or a woman. They are not helpless slaves to their wants and desires and at some point make that choice. If they claim to be helpless or compelled for whatever reason then see a medical practitioner or therapist and get help. I chose IC to deal with my issues with my Dad. I did not choose people in the same mould. I just happened to be on the receiving end of that persons choice. Made for reasons of their own self interest. Such has been my life. I choose to believe and have heard from men who choose not to have affairs. And yes women can be sluts too, but is it fair to think I am one based on the behavior of someone else? No. It is not fair to generalise. Decisions are made by individuals, not representative or necessarily representative and poster boys (or girls) of their gender. Stereotyping and generalizing is giving a free pass to people. I can have an affair because all men do. Rubbish. People choose affairs because they choose to let the amoral self seeking side of themselves be in charge. That or their genitals... Apologies if I offended anyone but I am grateful for your responses. The lack of insight that my post my display as a result of the discussion is my mistake alone. Thank you and lots of love and hugs to you (in a non "I want to have an affair" kind of way.)


Me BS (41)
Him WH (45). EA and possible PA (denied)
D Day 7/21/2013
M 8 years - filing for D

**The cruelest lies are often told in silence- Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 115 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: New Zealand
Topic Posts: 74