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User Topic: Passive Aggressive Relationships
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Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, May 4th (Monday)


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, May 4th (Monday)

Oh lucky me, I asked for this thread so now I get to start it.

I am about 4 months out from D-Day and attempting to reconcile with WH, and am feeling increasingly frustrated about what I see as Passive/Aggressive behavior that puts us in a constant state of pushing-pulling-pushing-pushing back.

There is another thread in this forum for Emotionally Unavailable. This doesn't fit my WH very well. He is emotionally foggy for sure, but he does try to be sympathetic towards me and my feelings. More he is not well connected to his own internal state and not good at articulating the full range of emotions he is feeling. It tends to be anger and frustration on the surface, and only with some deep digging does he get down to other feeling states, like feeling blamed, feeling inadequate, sadness, dread, shame.

I have outlined some of our issues in a thread in the Recon forum here: http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=292274

Here is one example of how we interact:

I say, "The yard needs to be cleaned up, when can you help with that?"

He says "When do you want me to?"

I say "I want you to find time in your schedule and figure out when works for you"

He says "Why don't you just tell me what you want?"

I say "I don't want to tell you what to do, I want you to take responsibility for scheduling your participation in taking care of our yard"

He says "If I do that you'll just be mad at me for not doing it when you want and how you want."

MC says to WH: it sounds like you are taking an approach that puts you in a parent-child relationship with KK being the parent and you being the child. Do you see how she doesn't want to feel like she is your parent?

WH says, "um, what?" "No, I just feel like I'm getting trapped into a situation where I can't please her because I won't be meeting her expectations, because SHE WON"T TELL ME WHAT THEY ARE"

I'm hoping to learn more about my role in this. I know I can't change him, I can only change myself. I am trying to learn more about the co-dependent behaviors I must be doing that feed into his P/A behaviors. I don't see them. I appear to be unaware of my role in this, even in looking back at some interaction between us I have a hard time seeing what I'm doing.

Hoping for some feedback from others who have worked through this, or who are working on it now. If you engage in PA or CD behaviors, how do you know you are doing that? How do you see yourself? How do you see your partner and your partner's role?

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
OntheRocks
Member
Member # 21727
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, May 5th (Tuesday)

I recently discovered a webpage that outlines the "boomerang" relationship that is the result of living with a passive-aggressive man, and how it affects the spouse, profoundly!!

Everyone can be PA at times, but my WH has taken it to a new level.

The article is pretty long, but there are a few passages that really hit home for me:

The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger. He resists her in small ways setting up a pattern of frustration so that she gets to express the anger that he cannot.

Somehow, somewhere down the line in our "budding relationship" I agreed to be his adversary. I can recognize it now, but then, I had no idea what I was doing that would make him resist me so much.

The man who copes with conflict by not being there has strong conflict over dependency. He desperately wants attention but fears being swallowed up by the partner. He can't be alone and live without a woman in his life, but can't be with a partner emotionally. He's caught in a Catch 22 -- wanting affection but avoiding it because he fears it as his destruction. He resents feeling dependent on the woman so must keep her off guard. He makes his partner FEEL LIKE A NOTHING through his neglect or irritability but he keeps her around because he needs her. His script is ‘Be here for me, but don't come too close and don't burden me with your needs or expectations.'

It's the slow and painful eating away of my self-esteem that he fed on, over and over and over.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master in getting his partner to DOUBT HERSELF and FEEL GUILTY for questioning or confronting him.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three roles - - the Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes: the Blamer, the Bitch, and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship.

I slowly, but surely became all of these things, over time. And he used my anger against me, which in turn made me feel more and more guilty as time went by.

It was a trap that I had no way of getting out of. Even when I would change my "fighting style" or try to not fight and "discuss" instead, I was always met with more PA behavior.
It's a vicious circle that's very hard to break, especially if the PA man doesn't want to break it, and why would he???? He gets to avoid any and all responsibility for the problems in the relationship. It's a terrible way to live, though.

The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness.

Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression.

Reading this information has been very freeing for me.
I no longer feel that I am to blame for who he is.
He tried to blame me for ruining his life and sucking the spirit out of him, but he was sucking me dry, day after day after day.

I hope this helps anyone dealing with a PA man.
I have loads more info if anyone would like me to share.


Divorced 7-8-09
Strength, courage & wisdom -
I pray for it everyday!

Posts: 341 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Heartland
neverendingstory
New Member
Member # 8533
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, May 5th (Tuesday)

Ohhh, good topic. I (BW) came from a family that were overtly agressive and husband came from a family who "never fought" and everyone was polite and VERY passive agressive. The problem is that passive-agressive is SO sneaky so I think it fits right in there with the secrecy of an affair. Actually I think a lot of affairs are actually acts of passive-agression.

It's hard to fight and fix these issues without a good look at the FOO and the family system. I know my husband learned to be this way from his family and didn't even see or understand that he didn't HAVE to be that way. He did have to be that way to survive in his family when he was young. Problem is, he never questioned it...just assumed that was the way it was and was 'normal'.

Now, when I came along, I actually treated him as an individual person who had a right to his own thoughts and feelings and expected him to be an adult and be responsible for them. He, on the other hand, took my healthy assertiveness as demands and then "got back at me" by not saying how he felt about something and secretly resenting me and judging me. Man, it's a bitch to try to deal with passive-agression. Like walking in traffic blindfolded. You may hear noise but you never know when and what hit you.

Anyway, we went to counseling and when someone(2 different counselors) other than me told my husband that his family was not acting in a healthy way and neither was he, he finally opened his eyes to an alternative. In doing this, he got a real shock because he had to change his judgment and perception of what his family actually is all about. It's funny now, he sees them being that way with him very clearly whereas before he would defend them because that was part of the dysfunctional system rules.

After all, in a family of passive-agressives, how can there be real love since everyone is so busy defending and protecting their own butts while sticking the knife in someone else's back to further their own 'safety' all with a smile on their face and sometimes being totally oblivious to the fact that they are actually hurting someone else. I think real empathy for someone other than themselves is pretty non-existant.

As for how we deal with it...he has to be aware it's happening and then chose a different behavior or thought. It's becoming easier since he has seen his family in their true colors. It's been a matter of thinking things through instead of just reacting emotionally. Such as, if I say something that he reacts to, he asks himself why he feels that way and where that feeling is coming from. Many times he will trace the feeling back to something in his past and the way he felt in his family.

I have to be careful not to mother or enable or be guilted. After so many years, for me, I would see a victim look on his face and want to reassure him or make it easy for him. Now I see that as a manipulation and just have to stand my ground and ask if that is what he is doing because it seems like it to me. That at least gets it on the table.

Well, I could go on and on because this has been one of THE main issues in creating problems in our relationship.


Posts: 27 | Registered: Oct 2005 | From: The west
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, May 5th (Tuesday)

Thanks for chiming in on this thread. I have always had a very direct "tell you what I think" way of communicating. My challenge in this M has been that WH is so stubborn and resistant to direction or input, and yet he wants it, asks for it, so I give it. And then I am disappointed time and time again when he argues with me, drags his feet, fails to start, fails to finish, or does something different than I thought he had agreed to.

It is so maddening. He is the master button pusher, and I fall for it very single time. He knows exactly what to say and how to say it to get me to lash out, and get angry at him for his behavior, and then he acts all innocent and wounded. He's mister cool-calm-and-collected and I'm the angry bitch. Give me a break!

We are starting to talk about his sense of "being punished" for whatever. He told me I make him late in the morning, drag my feet, and I do it because I'm mad about something he did and I'm doing it to punish him. It is the most absurd thing I've ever heard but he is adamant that those are his thoughts and feelings. He really believes it.

In fact it is clear to me that the opposite it true: he sets me up to be late, by asking me to do the things he doesn't have time for (he expects that I will do what he wants) and then gets mad at me because I haven't finished my things, all the while conveniently forgetting that I've been doing his stuff instead of mine. If he hadn't burdened me with his crap he would be late and I'd be on time, but it's so clever, so sneaky, I don't know I got roped into it and I don't see how he blames me for it so he doesn't have to take responsibility for it.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I feel so frustrated not only by his behavior but by the way I feed into it without being aware of what is going on underneath.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
neverendingstory
New Member
Member # 8533
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, May 6th (Wednesday)

HBKK...I empathize with you about how hard it is to know what to do. Especially being a straight talker myself. Funny how my husband and I are so opposite that way, but I guess opposites attract

The website "Get Your Angries Out" has some helpful information. Sounds like your husband is doing a lot of projection by accusing you of what he is actually doing. I feel like I've had to take a crash course in psychology to deal with it since I am not that way at all and haven't understood why someone would act passive-agressive. I understand a lot more because of a lot of talking and therapy. In fact, for the longest time I didn't even know he was doing that since I took him at face value. I have really resented being made out to be the enemy but I've learned not to react and take it personally. I just think to myself, oh, his childhood is rearing it's ugly head. Then I ask him if what he's saying or doing that seems passive-aggresive is really what he means which gives him time to look at his reaction without me accusing him of anything. I swear, it's been a long road. He used to be extremely reactive to anything I did or said that, to me, was meant with goodwill. He would interpret it wrong based on being defensive and judging me which he projected by accusing me of judging him. It is crazy-making!

We're far enough away from the affair that I have my sense of self back for the most part. When it was still new, I was reacting all over the place. It's like I was becoming what he was! It's so important to take care of yourself and respect yourself especially since an affair is such a hit to your self-esteem. I still have my moments, especially when I'm tired and sometimes I am just tired of it all but he has improved so much I know it will be worth it in the long run.

Thanks to all of you. SI has saved my sanity.


Posts: 27 | Registered: Oct 2005 | From: The west
UnbearablySadd
Member
Member # 18150
Default  Posted: 2:19 AM, May 6th (Wednesday)

I recently discovered a webpage that outlines the "boomerang" relationship that is the result of living with a passive-aggressive man, and how it affects the spouse, profoundly!!

Can you share the website, Rocks? Sounds very helpful!

I am married to my second p-a hubby. Great to see what I live with spelled out.

It's a Mind F**** day to day, and easy to not "see it."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQd8M5t4Ao&NR=1

it's all about James Hunter, now ;)

And here's the 180 link:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=256092


Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: This side of R that side of S
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, May 6th (Wednesday)

The website on the boomerang relationship is here:

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
sss456
Member
Member # 19222
Default  Posted: 1:54 AM, May 7th (Thursday)

Ah yes, the PA spouse. I ask "do you want pizza of chinese for dinner?", and he says whatever, and then whatever I bring home, he says ' i wanted the other". I should have bought both, and hidden one in the car! That would have burst his bubble! Oh, no, then he'd be annoyed I spent too much!!


I have nothing to lose but my mind, and everything I always wanted. Breaking Benjamin

Posts: 222 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: maryland
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 7:01 AM, May 7th (Thursday)

((((heartbroken_kk))))


A friend of ours who is currently studying to be a psychotherapist mentioned passive-aggressive behaviour in passing to my FWH, and then I saw this thread, which jogged my memory, so curious, I looked it up.
WOW - most of this stuff could have been written about my H - it feels like the sort of life I have been living with him all these years has suddenly been laid bare and explained - I almost feel a sense of relief!
The number of times I have been made to feel inadequate, stupid and insignificant. The years I have blamed myself for difficult situations, felt powerless, suffered from low self-esteem, had my opinions rubbished, my feelings invalidated and yet kept in the M because he told me he loved me and did just enough to make me feel it was worth it. It’s as if my eyes have been opened.
I printed a load of stuff off for FWH and every few lines he was saying "S**T..!..S**T...!" as realisation dawned.

Thank you ever so much for starting this thread - FWH is finally going to IC on Tuesday and already is watching how he behaves towards me...I feel like we can really try and make this M work better now we know what we are dealing with.


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
NeedingGodsHelp
Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 3:43 AM, May 8th (Friday)

This is where I belong!!! Now, if I only knew how to save my marraige.

How did you get your PA WS's out of their thick fog and willing to go to counseling?

He tried to blame me for ruining his life and sucking the spirit out of him

Sucking the life out of him is actually what I hear. That, and that I am a control freak.

I (BW) came from a family that were overtly agressive and husband came from a family who "never fought" and everyone was polite and VERY passive agressive.

This is exactly us.

I want so much to save our marriage, but I don't see a way to even get him to talk to me. He refuses to talk to me right now. It doesn't matter what I suggest he is against it simply because I suggested it!!

Thank you for starting this thread! I have found a home.

[This message edited by NeedingGodsHelp at 3:43 AM, May 8th (Friday)]


BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, May 8th (Friday)

So one of the things I'm trying to grapple with is that Passive-Aggressive behaviors are a set of habitual ways of interacting with others that on the surface seem benign and "nice", but when repeated with the same person over and over again, in time they are not nice at all. They actually subversively hostile towards the partner and emotionally crippling for the self.

My WH is someone people genuinely like and enjoy being with. He's funny, he's attentive, he's kind. He is very very good at sales; he can find out what motivates someone, find out what their wants and desires are, what their self image is about (fears, ego, etc) is, etc, and then modify his sales approach to find the perfect product to meet their needs and get them to buy. He has very good "other awareness".

His ability to shape-shift and to mold himself into a form that is friendly, cool, smart, or whatever it takes to make the other person comfortable with him is astounding.

Here's the thing. He does this unconsciously and without flinching or feeling that he is not being true to his own self. His true self is malleable for any given interpersonal interaction if he wants, if it serves his purpose.

At work, when he's selling, it is a perfect way of being. People come in, interact with him, feel good about it, and then leave.

At home, when he's interacting with me, it is an unhealthy way of being FOR HIM and for his role in our marriage. These behaviors that are intended to put me at ease, to smooth over rough spots, to reduce tension where there are disagreements, do not allow him to openly discuss and work through our differences. They do not help him fully express his own desires and needs. They do not allow him to own his internal feelings because they are pushed down so that he can focus on whatever negotiation he is doing.

He is outcome oriented.

"Just tell me what you want me to do"

Here, he is focused on the fact that I want him to do yardwork. He says he wants to cooperate and get some yardwork done so that I will "be happy".

In fact, he really doesn't want to do yardwork. He wants to do something else that is a lot more fun (hobby, hang out with friends, etc). He is angry that it cuts into his fun time, and resentful that he is being "cornered" into doing it. He feels guilty that he hasn't done it yet and has to be told. He feels guilty about shirking responsibility because he knows he shouldn't. He wants me to stop complaining about his lack of contribution to the household because it makes him feel bad about himself. He is angry at me for nagging him, and he wants me off his back. He wants to avoid responsibility, and the punishment he believes he deserves for it.

Underneath it all he is actually just turned off by the idea of yardwork. He is ashamed he is not pulling his own weight and feels a bit guilty about it. He also feels unjustly burdened, as if that shame really isn't deserved, and feels chores are a form of punishment when he hasn't done anything wrong. Yet, he is not aware of these feelings about himself, at all. He is aware he is angry at me. He redirects those uncomfortable feelings away from himself and towards me.

"Just tell me what you want me to do" puts the responsibility for the project on me, and sets up a situation where he can be the victim, the punished one, the one who has to do what his wife tells him to do. He can also do the job badly and then when I ask him to do it correctly, get angry at me because "he can't do anything right". He will do 90% of the job, then quit. Then it is up to me to finish the job, and he can sneer at me because "nothing he does is good enough, I can't be happy, I have to go in and change what he did".

"The Honey-Do list of chores" is not a shared responsibility for the household, it is a burden that gets foisted upon him. That is where he is passive. He becomes the one who has things done to him.

By putting himself in the submissive role, he puts me in the dominant role. He puts me in a position where I have to manage him, I "control" him. Then he can lash out at me for being controlling, he can be angry at me for it. So he substitutes anger for a variety of underlying emotional states such as shame and low self image. The anger can be directed at ME, instead of shame being an emotion directed internally.

And when I agree to "Just tell him what to do" I fall into the trap. I set myself up to be his manager, to be his punisher, to be the one who takes his fun away from him.

My own behavior, my willingness to be the dominant decision maker, the assertive instruction giver, the controller, and the follow upper... that is the Co-Dependent behavior I do that allows his Passive-Aggressive behaviors to thrive and become a comfortable, habitual way of being in our Marriage for him.


Whew! Am I making sense to the rest of you here? Is this sounding like your relationship at all?

kk

[This message edited by heartbroken_kk at 12:34 AM, August 14th (Sunday)]


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Oliver
Member
Member # 8648
Default  Posted: 6:22 PM, May 8th (Friday)

My H is a former P-A. His A was a totally passive-aggressive act.

Both of us worked extremely hard to get out of the "boomerang" relationship we were in (and yes, that website is fantastic).

THe most important thing I learned about P-A behavior came from H's IC, who told him: "Most p-a people do not know or acknowledge that they are angry when they act in p-a ways. They are so out of touch with their emotions that they do not feel angry. They are only angry subconsciously. That is why it is such a hard pattern to unlearn."

That was a huge lightbulb moment for me (not for him--he was totally out of touch, remember?)

When *I* learned to calmly call him on his p-a behavior, rather than reacting to it, he became more aware of it, and started to deal more with the underlying emotional issues.

I also read a ton of p-a literature.

Here is my reading list:

Living with the P-A Man by Scott Wetzler;

Overcoming P-A by Tim Murphy;

The Angry Marriage by Bonnie Maslin;

The Emotionally Unavailable Man by Patti Henry;

Emotional Unavailability by Bryn Collins;

The Dance of Anger and The Dance of Intimacy (both by Harriet Lerner);

When Your Lover is a Liar by Susan Forward;

Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix


Posts: 2706 | Registered: Oct 2005 | From: New England
NeedingGodsHelp
Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 2:35 AM, May 9th (Saturday)

heartbroken_kk -

I could have written your post about my WH. You nailed it righ ton the head.

By putting himself in the submissive role, he puts me in the dominant role. He puts me in a position where I have to manage him, I "control" him. Then he can lash out at me for being controlling, he can be angry at me for it. So he substitutes anger for a variety of underlying emotional states such as shame and low self image. The anger can be directed at ME, instead of shame being an emotion directed internally.

It seems we are married to the same man.

The question now is... how do you snap a P-A man out of his fog? How do you get a P-A man to see that he has a problem and get help?


BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, May 9th (Saturday)

I could have written your post about my WH. You nailed it righ ton the head.

By putting himself in the submissive role, he puts me in the dominant role. He puts me in a position where I have to manage him, I "control" him. Then he can lash out at me for being controlling, he can be angry at me for it. So he substitutes anger for a variety of underlying emotional states such as shame and low self image. The anger can be directed at ME, instead of shame being an emotion directed internally.

It seems we are married to the same man.

The question now is... how do you snap a P-A man out of his fog? How do you get a P-A man to see that he has a problem and get help?

I don't really know exactly how to answer your question, but it is comforting to hear I'm not alone and others are struggling with the same things.

I think one clue to how disfunctional it all is, is that you ask "how do you snap a P-A man out of his fog? How do you get a P-A man to see that he has a problem and get help?"

This sounds like you are willing to take charge and be responsible for "fixing" him. Isn't that Co-Dependent behavior on your part???

WH and I are doing weekly MC sessions. Are you in MC too? I can't tell you how comforting it is to be able to bring something up in MC and have a third party take it apart, show the pieces to us, and say "he does this, she does that, he does this, she does that, do you see a pattern? Can you see that XX is going on here?

I know that telling my WH that he is being PA, is A) really difficult to do in the moment because I don't see it happening, only hours later after mulling it over do I see what happened, and B) is completely useless because he is unable to process critical observations of him that come out of my mouth.

I think the challenge for me is to look for signs that I am taking control of something, some interaction, some household decision, some project, some whatever. If I have agreed to take control I have put myself in a dominant role and allowed WH to be passive. This sets him up to be resentful because I am controlling. I need to find a way to re-frame things so that WH is always at least an equal partner in the decision. That his input has helped shape it. That I dig and ask leading questions to help him understand what HE really wants rather than accepting suggestions that are shaped to please ME.

I am so accustomed to being the decision maker. For example, for the 25 days a month when he doesn't work overtime and we eat dinner together, I decide what he is eating for dinner at least 24 of those days. He asks me what we are having for dinner. I mentally run through our list of options, share a couple of those options, he may express interest in one or two of them, and then "we" decide what or where to eat. But pretty much never does he come to me and say "I want to go to XX Restaurant tonight, does that work for you?"

So every day we go through this Passive-Aggressive and Co-Dependent dance with dinner decision making. He only wants to know what I'm feeding him, really. That is the outcome he is interested in: knowing that he will get to eat.

I am trying to learn to say "I don't know, and I don't want to be the one to decide. I would like for you to decide where/what we are eating tonight. Let me know what you come up with and I will be ready."

I have also learned I must be calm when he gets irritated with this approach. By not being the willing decision maker I am "dumping" the burden of the decision on him, and again, he tends to feel resentful and victimized. I also have to be able to accept his decision even if I don't like his choice. I try and be outwardly happy with whatever he chooses so that he doesn't feel like I'm toying with him. If I give up my controlling, Co-Dependent role I have to allow myself to accept being affected by a decision I didn't make.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
kluelesskat
Member
Member # 23552
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, May 9th (Saturday)

Interesting. I wonder if this behaviour comes from a whole family behaving a certain way b/c they don't want the feathers ruffled of one family member. They think its easier to just let someone behave anyway they want just so no one has to say anything.


Me - BS
Him - WS
MOW - Ole fatty w 2 others on the side besides mine and her husband

Posts: 215 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Canada Eh
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, May 9th (Saturday)

Interesting. I wonder if this behaviour comes from a whole family behaving a certain way b/c they don't want the feathers ruffled of one family member. They think its easier to just let someone behave anyway they want just so no one has to say anything.

Our MC says this is very common behavior in "Adult Children of Alcoholics" - children who grew up in a home that had a raging alcoholic did not feel safe expressing their own emotions and learned to read the emotions of others very well in order to determine "how to act" to avoid being the recipient of an alcoholic's rage. Pushing down one's own emotions while being sensitive to others allowed one to stay sane and safe.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
LOL_NOT
New Member
Member # 23922
Shocked  Posted: 1:28 PM, May 10th (Sunday)

The PA behavior is at the crux of my break up. Thanks to everyone for sharing. Up until recently I have felt isolated. And quite frankly insane.
It is the enormous volume and quantity of daily PA behavior that has left me drained, depressed and overwhelmed. It is amazing to me that one moment my partner appears caring and the next minute denies even saying it.

I could live a whole life time never hearing the following statements again from my PA partner:

"I'll get back to you."
"Whatever you want to do."
"I'm so sorry I didn't do_____"
"That's your time schedule not mine."


Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2009
LOL_NOT
New Member
Member # 23922
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, May 10th (Sunday)

are doing weekly MC sessions. Are you in MC too? I can't tell you how comforting it is to be able to bring something up in MC and have a third party take it apart, show the pieces to us, and say "he does this, she does that, he does this, she does that, do you see a pattern?

I'm a newbie. Can you tell me what MC is? Sounds Like I need to attend. I need support dealing with PA behavior. Thanks.


Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2009
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, May 10th (Sunday)

Hi, LOL_NOT -- welcome to SI the best club you never wanted to join.

MC is Marriage Counselor or Marriage Counseling. IC is Individual Counseling.

On the homepage for SI there is a yellow box on the left. Click there on the link for the healing library, where you can find articles, a list of abbreviations, books, and lots of other resources. I think I probably read most everything there when I first joined.

I would encourage you to post in other forums, the Just Found Out forum has a lot of other folks going through the beginning stages of dealing with the shock of infidelity, separation, lies, etc.

I spend most of my time in the Reconciliation forum because my WH (Wayward Husband) has promised to end all contact with his APs (Affair Partners) and work on restoring our marriage. Not everyone gets to that point, or should. Quite a few people go from the JFO forum to the D forum, and General too.

Take care and good luck.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 6:49 PM, May 10th (Sunday)

Beach has bumped a great thread in the Wayward Forum on Co-Dependency here:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=240330

I would love to hear from the WS's out there that are dealing with either PA or CD behaviors.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
LOL_NOT
New Member
Member # 23922
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, May 11th (Monday)

Thank you heartbroken_kk for the info link on terms AND for the suggestions on where to start on forums. It is greatly appreciated

Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2009
hurtbs
Member
Member # 10866
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, May 12th (Tuesday)

Hi all

I"m so glad for this thread. I have posted many times about my FWH's PA/CA behaviors. It's a nightmare to deal with many times.

Right now, we're struggling with what on the surface looks like a stupid issue - what we're going to do with the dogs *if* he has to go out of town on an event. You see, I have a business trip that I've had scheduled for a while. A couple of weeks ago, he heard that he *might* be going out of town on a business trip - keyword, *might*. This is less than three weeks away. He still doesn't know if he's going. I keep telling him "You need to figure out what you're doing - whether or not you're going." I keep getting "I was swamped, I didn't have time, blah blah fuckity blah." Heck, I don't even know if I have a ride to the airport that weekend! Today, we got into an argument because yet again, he was 'too busy' to figure out what was going on that weekend. I said "Look, I need to figure out what we're going to do with the dogs." His response "We'll figure it out." Of course, he 'doesn't know anyone who can watch them' or he 'wouldn't feel comfortable asking so and so' and he 'doesn't know any kennels and gee they're pricy'.

Honestly, at this point, I think I'm not going to ask him about it again and just let him figure out what to do with the dogs. Maybe I'll just go ahead and book a ride to the airport while I"m at it.

IF anyone else has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it - his only answer will be 'we'll figure it out' and he isn't going to find out anytime in the near future what's going on with his business trip. If we kennel them, I have to get their bordatella vaccination like *right now* so that they're fully protected. Grrr.

See, it sounds completely stupid, but I just need to get this situation sorted and he won't give me any information and then gets angry at me if I ask about it.


Me BW Him XSAWH
DDays - 1 was too many
Divorced 2012

"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate." - Asimov
"Be patient and tough; someday this pain will be useful to you." - Ovid


Posts: 15240 | Registered: Jun 2006
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 3:53 AM, May 13th (Wednesday)

The phrases I usually get are:

"Something will turn up", or "It will sort itself out."

which usually means I sort it out...


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 3:55 AM, May 13th (Wednesday)

Has anyone read:

Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man: Coping with Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression: from the Bedroom to the Boardroom
by Scott Wetzler?

I've just ordered a copy in a vain attempt to 'understand' my H better and was wondering if it was any good?


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
hurtbs
Member
Member # 10866
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, May 13th (Wednesday)

down4

I read the book but didn't find it particularly helpful - I know that some people have.

I get those phrases too. Although right now it's *we'll* work it out, which means that I'll do it.


Me BW Him XSAWH
DDays - 1 was too many
Divorced 2012

"In life, unlike chess, the game continues after checkmate." - Asimov
"Be patient and tough; someday this pain will be useful to you." - Ovid


Posts: 15240 | Registered: Jun 2006
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, May 14th (Thursday)

One of the things that is coming up for us is that he uses passivity or inaction as a way of avoiding taking responsibility and thus being held accountable.

Also, when he wants me to take the lead on things, he is putting me in a position of being in control and him in a position of being controlled, and if he doesn't like the outcome he is victimized by my controlling.

I told him I want to stop falling into a Parent-Child kind of relationship and can't step out of the "Parent" role if he will not step up and take on his full share of responsibilities willingly and without threats or anger and frustration finally pushing him there.

I told him that when I say "I do not want to be responsible for this" I mean now, as well as later. I do not want to be forced by his inaction to be responsible at the last minute.

Has anyone had any luck using the "Would you please take ownership of this" approach?

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 2:35 AM, May 15th (Friday)

KK

I've been trying this approach as well. it amazes me now that I'd never considered or thought of passive-aggression as an explanation of my H behaviour, but better late than never.

He constantly defers to me - What do you think? What should I do? You decide; I'm not bothered (when he is) and so on. My stock answer now is - "I don't want the responsibility of deciding what's best for you...that's your department, I'm not your mother."

He sighs and nods and gets on with it for the most part (old habits die hard, especially procrastination).

I will, on ocassion, offer my opinion but make it quite clear that the final decision is his. Early days yet but seems to be working.


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, May 17th (Sunday)

Me: What do you want for dinner?

H: I don't care, you pick.(this is always his answer, will never commit)

Me: No really, I don't care either so you pick.

H: Getting mad now...I told you I don't care, just pick.

Me: I don't want to pick I want you to pick it.

On and on we go. Finally he will pick the most rediculous thing...like OK I will go to McDonalds (not bashing McD's,) I will finally say fine. And he will get MAD that I agreed to it!

I will beg him to do the bills, he will do them for 1 day and then put them to the side. Our T told us to just let the bills go then, told me to stop doing them....but then our credit gets ruined! He will be all nice and say OK I will do them I promise....and then same thing over and over.

P-A man is still stuck in a childish relationship and it is unleashed anger. I have always said my H will be super great for about 4-5 years and then he just has to totally screw up his life somehow...and then blame it on everyone else. Whether it is his career, a new hobby, our marriage, spending too much on something and not telling me....whatever.

When we finally separated for awhile it was really clear how bad it was. I felt a huge load off my shoulders and my H went slowly crazy while out of the house. He had no one to blame anything on. It was the one thing that really showed a small iota of change. It is not easy.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
PiQue
Member
Member # 17575
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, May 17th (Sunday)

After reading the posts in this thread, I think I belong here...

I can so relate to the-
"What do you want for dinner: Choice A, Choice B, Choice C."
"I don't care, whatever you're fixing."

And no matter what I make for dinner, it is the wrong choice!

I told him about a month ago - "It really makes me feel special when you call me >pet name<." (A pet name he had called me for years.)

He hasn't called me that since. I recently pointed that out to him and he just stared at me for a bit, then said, "But, I call you other pet names now..." And guaranteed if I say I like them, he will quit!

I made the mistake (unknowingly) of making suggestions as to how he could improve his relationship with our teenaged DDs. He is now practically NC with them. They feel like they have no father.

He resists anything that vaguely resembles me being in 'control', yet allows the OW to lead him around by the nose. WTF


Me/BW 50+
Him/WH 60+ Long Distance LTA
NEVER ignore your gut.


Posts: 2881 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: Mid-Atlantic Region
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, May 17th (Sunday)

He resists anything that vaguely resembles me being in 'control',

Oh, yeah. Passive-resistance. Stubbornness.

Last week, our MC suggested that what I needed was comfort and caring gestures. That when I get upset and he changes the subject or leaves the room he is basically abandoning me because my feelings make him feel uncomfortable.

Has he done anything like what she suggested? NO.

For my WH, he cannot handle any criticism. If I tell him something he did mad me feel unhappy, or uncomfortable or anxious, he says he feels "blamed".

Dude, yes, I'm blaming you. Grow a frigging spine, man up, and take responsibility.

Geez.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
roccodom
Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, May 17th (Sunday)

What is with that blaming crap. My H says the same damn thing. It's exhausting. So in no way can you say anything to them or "I feel like you're blaming me"

WTF


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
brokenapart
Member
Member # 8309
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, May 17th (Sunday)

This was my life. I spent years frustrated, angry, controlled through his inaction, feeling guilty for being upset, and resentful.

I don't know how one deals with this successfully - I know that I never did.


me- BS
2 great kids
Divorced & living again.

"Let go or get dragged" - beaner

Life is Good


Posts: 10649 | Registered: Sep 2005
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, May 18th (Monday)

What is with that blaming crap? My H says the same damn thing. It's exhausting. So in no way can you say anything to them or "I feel like you're blaming me"


It’s like some sort of defence mechanism - he doesn't actually hear what I'm saying, just takes out the bits that might be slighting him and runs with them. The other day he asked me how I was feeling so I told him about how it was so difficult to trust anyone now that my best friend (him) the man I had loved and trusted with my heart and soul had done such a terrible thing. I made the mistake of referring to FWH as 'him' rather than 'You'.
What did I get as a huffy answer, "Oh, so I'm in the third person now am I?"
The mind boggles!

After I'd calmed down (about an hour later) I pointed out how he had handled the answer to his "How are you?" question and he was extremely apologetic - but aren't they always when it suits? This is going to be a very difficult road.


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
NeedingGodsHelp
Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, May 18th (Monday)

He resists anything that vaguely resembles me being in 'control', yet allows the OW to lead him around by the nose.

My WH is the same ay. He refused marraige couseling, because it was MY idea. It is impossible to coparent with him! It is so frustrating!!!

And he has labeled me as a control freak... I heard it again the other day, because I was trying to talk to him and ask him to apologize to DD13 and talk to him about teenage girls and self-esteem. Ridiculous!!


For my WH, he cannot handle any criticism. If I tell him something he did mad me feel unhappy, or uncomfortable or anxious, he says he feels "blamed".

Same here. Has been this way for years. Except now I am blamed for everything that was ever wrong with our marriage and for his affair!



BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 10:23 PM, May 22nd (Friday)

This is a little bit of a puzzler for the rest of you. Has your partner, who you believe is Passive-Aggressive, told you that he or she thinks YOU are Passive-Aggressive?

Happened to me this morning. I send WH the link to the Boomerang Relationship page on AngriesOut and he said a lot of the stuff in there applied to me more than him.

I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just a bit surprised as I haven't heard of this and when I read it didn't think of myself immediately. I have suffered from depression on and off for years, and of course the A has put me into a deep deep funk, so many times I end up in a "paralysis" of inaction.

Curious if others have heard this.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)

I remember reading somewhere that if you live with a P-A long enough their behaviour can rub off on you - but it could just be your P-A partner behaving in a P-A manner and making you question yourself?!


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
roccodom
Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)

What did I get as a huffy answer, "Oh, so I'm in the third person now am I?"

This happens to me all the time. I tell him he getting off subject (deflecting) and concentrating on the semantics instead of the content. I think it's a way to get out of facing the feelings.

I pointed out how he had handled the answer to his "How are you?" question and he was extremely apologetic - but aren't they always when it suits?

Yep - got that here too. It makes it extremely difficult to get your needs met. They deflect the conflict so it never gets resolved - then apologize later and don't deal with it.

EXHAUSTING


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
olixa
Member
Member # 23533
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)

My WH is a scorpio as well as P-A. Yes they think they are perfect, will subconsciously hurt us by constant blaming and underlying criticism. I just ignore his whining and his blaming now - it is like "whatever". if it was raining during a soccer game he would somehow blame me. so that is just him. I just ignore it now and think to myself "poor bastard".

my WH has finally asked to come home after now being separated for 2 months. i actually love my freedom and i am nervous of him coming back home cuz of his P-A behaviour. NO one else understands why i could be nervous but i know you on SI unnderstand.

Can i brush it off anymore? i can i just ignore him again? i hope so. it is a character flaw that i can not fix. if he does not take responsibility such as packing to go somewhere or arranging for the dogs or bringing snacks then he will have to learn from his mistakes (just like a child) has to all over again.

i have refused to jump in and rescue him anymore and no longer will take his blaming personally. just a personality disorder. he he

but i do hate it when he tries to undermine me or laughs at me saying that i am the crazy one or my feelings are crazy. but then, i will just dismiss it and say "gotcha" cuz his laughing is actually a deflector cuz i hit the nail on the head and he is trying to divert the truth elsewhere.

so i am nervous cuz it can really get to me sometimes. yikes.....

ps. is it me or is it more men than women that suffer from this personality disorder? anyone else married to a scorpio as well?


You only fail, if you fail to try.

Posts: 85 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Canada
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)

mines a Scorpio as well - is this a trend??!!


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
alreadygone
Member
Member # 11517
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, May 23rd (Saturday)

I am 3 years divorced.

I remember a time when I would read the Living with a PA man book, and hide it, bc I knew if x (then h) would find it, it would upset him and then he would use his favorite anger technique, the silent treatment.

Good grief.

I believe there is hope for every pa person who can take responsibility for his (generic he) actions.

But if he does not, there is probably no hope.

I look back over the 20 years I knew my best friend/husband. I look at who I used to be. I look at the behaviors that we fell into.

I went from stating directly how I felt about something he did or did not do, and then, years later, how I would absent myself from a situation to cry in private bc of something he did or did not do. I had to cry in private bc I had already learned that it must have been my fault to be upset bc of something he did or did not do, bc he never did anything wrong, and my being upset at him was then, of course, my fault, and my problem.

Yep. Crazymaking at its exquisite best.

It was a terrible terrible way to live.

I am still recovering.

Good luck to us all as we try to reclaim ourselves.


Posts: 1011 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: mountain states
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, May 23rd (Saturday)

I was pregnant. I remember crying and he would yell at me as if to say, 'what the hell is wrong with you' I just wanted him to hold me, tell me he was sorry, or just that it'd be okay.
NEVER..yes I look back at the person I was, and I think deep inside I am. I am miserable now.


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

A little humor in the house this morning...

For those of you who are living with a P/A type, here's a hopeful sign that maybe they can start seeing their behaviors and maybe even modify them...

Me: Could I get you to do XX? (unpleasant task neither of us wants to do)

WH: Um, could I just passively not respond to that question?

Me: Sure, if you can get task XX done without me, no response is required.

WH: Yo dog, come here, I have a job for you!

Me: Ha ha ha. Dog needs opposable thumbs for that.

WH: Darnit!


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

sorry duplicate post

[This message edited by heartbroken_kk at 6:46 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)]


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

You know I have been thinking. My Ic says My co-dependece began when I was young. My mother was inaffectual and my father had PTSD.

But I didn't exhibit such CO-Dep behavior until about the time I became pregnant. I have always been a team player, but I am ambitious and hardworking, so I make a good leader. I have never been demanding, but WH H at the time, had me convinced that I was demeaning, demanding and condecending.


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
WhiteWolfWinning
Member
Member # 12475
Default  Posted: 6:22 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

I look back over the 20 years I knew my best friend/husband. I look at who I used to be. I look at the behaviors that we fell into.

I went from stating directly how I felt about something he did or did not do, and then, years later, how I would absent myself from a situation to cry in private bc of something he did or did not do. I had to cry in private bc I had already learned that it must have been my fault to be upset bc of something he did or did not do, bc he never did anything wrong, and my being upset at him was then, of course, my fault, and my problem.

Oh my God. I could have written that. Our relationship started out being so open - nothing held back (or so I thought). Then, very slowly, the walls went up and very, very,slowly, I crawled into the tiny hole that was "my place". The compliant, perfect wife. Don't make waves. Don't over react. Everything can be excused away and it is ALWAYS someone else's fault.

I feel like I have been let out of prison. I am 2.5 years S and 6 months D. My X is still P/A and it is still difficult sometimes because we have a child (soon to be off to college) and a home that we will be selling. Still, I no longer have to deal with his punishing silent treatment when I would dare to ask for something simple - something normal.

I ignore most of his P/A stuff now becasue I CAN! Nobody will ever treat me like that again. Never, EVER, will I retreat into the lonely hell of believing that asking for my needs to be met from the man I thought was my life partner was asking too much.

wolf

[This message edited by WhiteWolfWinning at 6:24 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)]


Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply, Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

Thank you, Lord, for the lightness of my burdens


Posts: 8233 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: midwest
brokenapart
Member
Member # 8309
Default  Posted: 7:33 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

Never, EVER, will I retreat into the lonely hell of believing that asking for my needs to be met from the man I thought was my life partner was asking too much.

me neither wolf. Isn't it nice to be in the sunshine again?


me- BS
2 great kids
Divorced & living again.

"Let go or get dragged" - beaner

Life is Good


Posts: 10649 | Registered: Sep 2005
WhiteWolfWinning
Member
Member # 12475
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, May 26th (Tuesday)

It's been a long crawl, but it sure as heck is nice to bein the sunshine again! (not planning to leave it)
Wolf


Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply, Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

Thank you, Lord, for the lightness of my burdens


Posts: 8233 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: midwest
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, May 27th (Wednesday)

I was rudely interrupted by aWH who needed me to get offline to play his video games.

Anyway... what I was getting to was that our relationship started off fine too. I was independent and carefree, we had a lot of fun and really didn't argue much for the first year. Even after we bought the house, we still seemed to have similar priorities. But then asking/reminding H to taje out the trash became an arguement..."stop nagging me" but if I didn't remind him he wouldn't do it. Then I would come home to a messy kitchen and he was playing games. He began to observe that all I did when I walked in the house was complain. I soon began to see a therepist for these behaviors...I was convinced that it was me, I was pushy and rude and negative...I really wasn't like this before.

Did anyone else find that these people turn basically healthy people into Co-Dep?


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, May 27th (Wednesday)

I think Passive/Aggressive is another term for Responsibility Avoider.

If you can figure out some way to get someone else to do the things you don't want to do, or take responsibility for the things you don't want to be held accountable for, why not let sloth take over your life? Sooo much easier when someone else does all the work. If you are clever you can get away with this for years before the other person has finally HAD IT.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
WhiteWolfWinning
Member
Member # 12475
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, May 27th (Wednesday)

Did anyone else find that these people turn basically healthy people into Co-Dep?

In my case, I was a prime candidate for the role of co-dependent. I am a conusmmate people pleaser and, the more I did to become the model of the understanding wife, the more he upped the ante. It was so gradual, I didn't see it until I was looking at it in my rear-view mirror.

I allowed a lot of nonesense to go on that I never should have tolerated. I do own tnat, but never again.

PAs are msaters at manipulation. The crazymaking can drive all but the strongest individuals right over the edge.

Wolf


Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply, Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God

Thank you, Lord, for the lightness of my burdens


Posts: 8233 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: midwest
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, May 28th (Thursday)

If you can figure out some way to get someone else to do the things you don't want to do, or take responsibility for the things you don't want to be held accountable for, why not let sloth take over your life?

This must be why he is saying we are getting S's because I want it or because he's respecting my needs.

Forget that it was an ultimatum..."her or me"


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
LOL_NOT
New Member
Member # 23922
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, May 28th (Thursday)

I'm so stressed out with my scorpio [another one] P/A partner. This thread has given me great comfort. Thank you all for posting your thoughts. As I read, I keep saying "yes that's what I'm going throug!" I feel less isolated and less crazy because you have taken the time to put words to my feelings. I'm SO exhausted dealing with this P/A crap that I can't even think straight anymore, little lone post...So thank you for keeping this thread going..cuz it's been a life saving coping mechanism for me

Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2009
toonice
Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, May 28th (Thursday)

This is a little bit of a puzzler for the rest of you. Has your partner, who you believe is Passive-Aggressive, told you that he or she thinks YOU are Passive-Aggressive?

Oh yes! And I BELIEVED IT!

This is the stuff that really made me crazy.

She also said the same thing of her XH. I realize now that this was all projection.

She also accused me of being an addict, OCD, ADHD, Asperger's, you name it. I have enough problems with self-doubt as it is (I take 100% ownership of that, and I'm working on it - IC). Then I had to deal with that. Then I had to deal with her cheating.

But since she started IC, she has come to grips with some little insights about herself like: when she was a child, she was taught that it was not okay to show feelings, especially anger.

ding ding ding ding ding ding!

Okay - so here's the deal with me. Yeah, I'll blow off taking out the garbage, or I'll forget. You know what? I'm not denying it, or blaming someone else. I can admit fault. (can you tell I'm sensitive about it? It's actually kind of triggery for me now) I have my priorities in clear alignment. Sometimes, other things take higher priority, (and it sure as hell wasn't playing video games or any of that).

So, sometimes, I'd remind myself to take out the garbage in the morning, then I'd get wrapped up in the rush to get out of the house to work, and forget.
Then she'd accuse me of "forgetting" (on purpose).

And I believed it.

Sometimes - people really DO forget. You know what? They're human. We all are. All we can do is our best - right? I think I function pretty darn well. I'm even a perfectionist in some regard, when it comes to things I really think matter (like being a good provider). In my mind - taking out the garbage doesn't matter as much as getting the kids to school and getting to work on time. (And I will "own" the fact that I have some big anxiety issues about this - and that's all about self-esteem.)

Oh my God. I could have written that. Our relationship started out being so open - nothing held back (or so I thought). Then, very slowly, the walls went up and very, very,slowly, I crawled into the tiny hole that was "my place". The compliant, perfect wife. Don't make waves. Don't over react. Everything can be excused away and it is ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Yeah - this describes me. (husband, not wife) - and no, I wasn't perfect. But I tried to be.
My IC tells me that this is the thinking of an abuse victim. When one is emotionally abused, one keeps trying to please the abuser, in hopes that if one just tries hard enough, the abuse will stop. And it never does, until the victim gets out of that mindset, and stops it.

. . . . Then I would come home to a messy kitchen and he was playing games.

OMG - with me, it was messy kitchen, FWW (SAHM) taking a nap. She absolutely refuses to ever wipe the countertop. (She didn't the first three years). I actually got her to admit once: if the kids wont clean up after themselves, she's not going to do it. So basically, she sets the example for them. Guess who always cleans the kitchen counters after everyone else? Me. I'm not the SAHM.
(Since she got a job - no, I don't mind doing this half the time).

Believe me - I voiced my anger about this.
She was the one who acted out.

He began to observe that all I did when I walked in the house was complain.

yep.

I soon began to see a therepist for these behaviors...I was convinced that it was me, I was pushy and rude and negative...I really wasn't like this before.

At this point, she was having her first A. I could tell something was wrong with her. She wouldn't tell me squat. I started coming home, and I'd be sitting on the couch watching TV with her, and like clockwork, I'd start having anxiety attacks.

I went to an IC and I guess talking about it soothed me a bit. But I was so confused - I thought *I* was the problem.

Did anyone else find that these people turn basically healthy people into Co-Dep?

I have some codependency issues, according to my IC. My FWW's IC (after d-day#2, when she finally agreed to my suggestion to see one), put her in a codependency recovery program. But my IC (our MC) believes FWW is more like an addict - but the codependency books and program will help her.

I'll say that when my IC suggested that I was a codependent, I was like "really? okay, maybe. . . what do I do about it?"

When it was suggested that FWW was a codependent, or an addict - there was outrage. At some point, about 4 months after d-day#2, she actually came out of her fog of denial, and she was just devastated when she accepted that. She thought it was a horrible thing. She was suicidal, so she went back on AD's.

Tell you what - if a doctor actually diagnoses me with something, I don't view it as a character flaw, or a ding on me. I'm like - "great! finally! a plan to fix this shit!".

But my IC/MC as you can probably tell, does not like "labels". She's right there with treatment, etc. when and where necessary. But I think she thinks labels contribute to the patient's shame, which is a major source of these issues in the first place. I can understand that. I've seen it in action.

I allowed a lot of nonesense to go on that I never should have tolerated. I do own tnat, but never again.

This is a VITAL first step.

Until I learned that I was *not* a bad husband or a bad person, for telling FWW that what she was doing was not okay, she kept right on doing it. And I'd just try harder to do what I thought would please her. (sometimes, that was what she told me would please her - but those goalposts kept moving.)

PAs are msaters at manipulation. The crazymaking can drive all but the strongest individuals right over the edge.

I've been in MC for 20 months. IC for about 6, and d-day was 11 months ago. I was driven so far over the edge, I'm not sure I can even see where it is to grab it and pull myself back up. I guess that's why I'm in IC.

ETA:
FWIW, my FWW is a LEO. She always said she loved to be the center of attention. Little did I know that that was part of the twisted thinking that justified her A's. (traded sex for attention).

One of the really P/A things she did, was I had always given her a dozen long-stemmed red roses for VD. Just sort of a relationship tradition. Well, she told me, shortly after her latest LTA began, about 6 years ago - that she never like the roses, because they brought bugs into the house. (well - this is kind of crazy, because we often just leave our back door open to the yard, when it's nice out, and the bugs come in anyway; we deal, and she never said anything about that).
So I stopped buying roses for VD, and went on to other things. Then, this last year (08, not 09), we're having a conversation with her best friend about VD gifts, and the subject of the roses came up. I pointedly said that she didn't like roses, because of the bugs. I admit, that was a jab. - She said something like; "oh, roses are great, they have a spray for the bugs."
So I got her roses for VD - which was a couple of weeks later.
She got angry, and insisted that I got them for me, not for her. (She was fighting with OM at the time). See? Because she didn't want to be responsible for the whole "afraid of bugs" thing, in front of her best friend. She had to immunize herself from my jab by saying roses were okay. But they weren't. The real reason, is that they were a sweet, romantic, loving gesture, and it made her feel like shit, knowing what she was doing to me behind my back.
Anyway, this year, I got her a card and took her out to dinner.

[This message edited by toonice at 7:28 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 1:07 AM, May 29th (Friday)

Throwing it back in my face.

Making it so it's ME that's the problem.

If he can blame me, and I fall for it, he's off the hook!


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 9:08 PM, May 29th (Friday)

Any of your WH sociopaths....?

From: http://toogoodtobereal.blogspot.com/2006/05/sociopaths-perfect-romantic-partner.html

Sociopaths - the 'perfect' romantic partner
I will never forget the day I found information on the Internet related to romantic relationships with sociopaths. The more I looked, the more I found.

Sociopaths can be very romantic, extremely charming and incredibly generous. They will shower their target with attention, flattery and gifts of all kinds - jewelry, clothes, flowers. A socipath will sweep you off your feet and treat you unlike anyone has ever treated you. He will typically seal the relationship very quickly, often before he discards his current victim.

Sociopaths have the ability to gain your affection very quickly and a relationship with a sociopath becomes intense very quickly. They say all the right things and do all the right things to get what they think they want for the moment. It is not unusual for a sociopath to provide an endless about of support, running errands, organizing and encouraging you when you need it.

A romantic relationship is just another opportunity for a sociopath to find a trusting partner who buys into the lies. Everything about the relationship is a game. They can be extremely charming in a relationship while doing much damage behind the scenes by having countless affairs and lying about them. He will lie to his latest target while he is lying to his current victim. A sociopath will show his true self when he has his next target lined up and he knows that his current relationship is coming to an end.

Sociopaths fail to fulfill their promises or commitment made with romantic partners. They usually have a string of broken relationships and/or failed marriages due to their inability to feel true love and sustain intimate relationships. They never really form emotional attachments and therefore lack any sense of obligation. It may appear that there is an attachment but it isn't real. According to Dr. Martha Stout in her book 'The Sociopath Next Door', sociopaths will marry but never for love. Their relationships allow them to appear normal. Sociopaths can "know the words but not the music". They learn to appear emotional and romantic by imitating others' behavior.

Sociopaths show a stunning lack of concern for the devastating effects their actions have on others including wives, children, family and friends. They do not feel remorse, guilt or shame. They are not able to care about the pain and suffering experienced by others due to their complete lack of empathy which is a prerequisite for love. Sociopaths are always takers and never givers in spite of appearances and the illusion they create.

I bought my wedding dress withind 3 months of dating now WH.

I see in e-mails that she is hook-line and sinker now too. And they haven't even been in a commited R for 3 months...he's been sleeping with me through 4 false Rs and he hasn't told her..even though he'll claim with a straight face that he has told her.

sad


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
weepy
Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:23 AM, June 1st (Monday)

Did anyone else find that these people turn basically healthy people into Co-Dep?

Yep. I can still vividly see me telling H (then BF) to shit or get off the pot. We had been dating for 5 years, he had moved halfway across the country and had made no committment. I was sitting on my heels for 6 months while he "pursued his dream". Finally said "can't live like this, it's either marry me or we're done."

3 days later we were engaged, but the difference is that if he had pulled the plug, I would have been fine with that too.

I too slowly became who I thought he wanted me to be. Kept the peace at all costs, accepted that I was the cause of all our "troubles".

Even though I know now that he's P/A, that he has deep insecurity issues, I still find myself trying to "fix" everything, to present things "right" instead of just speaking my mind or asking directly.

When I do speak my mind, I get shut down and he becomes dismissive and if I'm feeling particularly vulnerable, it hurts and I find myself wanting to "fix" it again. Only I use the "Well, I'm the bigger person, the adult, I HAVE to be reasonable and see if this can be repaired another way."

I hate having to second guess everything I do or say before I do or say it.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
weepy
Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:34 AM, June 1st (Monday)

Oh, I missed the dinner "conversation".

I will ask H what he feels like eating because I don't care. I'll just cook chicken every night of the week. HE cares. Yet, will not make a decision. "I don't care" is his standard response... until he see what I've cooked and then it's "what made you decide on this?"

Most of it is not criticism directly. I can deal with that, it's the "Explain yourself" crap that gets to me. I made a decision, how tough is that to get?

He told me to choose a restaurant for my birthday dinner. SO I did. Right away. He started calling it "joe's toilet" all week. I finally said "OK, why don't you TELL me where I want to go on my birthday and we can be done with it." Of course, he was only "joking" and said if that's where I wanted to go fine.

And I think God that the meal turned out great, the service was good and H was "happy" with my choice, otherwise I would have been "banned" from making any more restaurant suggestions in the future.

Two nights later we went out with friends. There are 2 restaurants in the shopping center where the movie was playing. I said there was no choice, "let's just eat at #1", it was convenient and had a bigger menu than just pizza. He refused to commit. When our friends showed up, THEY suggested we eat at #1 and he agreed immediately with ENTHUSIASM.

Later, he made some comment about my leaving "all the decisions up to him" and that he "used to think I had some common sense and could be trusted with decisions." Yet HE's NOT MAKING ANY.

I swear I may go


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
alreadygone
Member
Member # 11517
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, June 1st (Monday)

Dismissive.

Weepy did you say dismissive?

Music to my ears.

That is the word that best describes how I would feel if I tried to make my feelings clear.

I believe I first really and truly started to feel "dismissed" soon after my first child was born. (Can we say 17 years ago?) I remember feeling that what I once felt so very keenly - that my then H saw me, saw my very soul and loved me- was less, was absent more and more.

Eventually, I felt he did not see me at all, and of course it was my fault.

I missed it so much. That illusory sense that I was special to him. I believe I speak for all of us (most of us?) when I say that I missed the man he

either

used to be

or

the man
I thought he was (but wasn't).

Either way,

I sure as fucking hell don't miss the feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realize I did not put something back in the place he expected it to be, bc there would be hell to pay.

Like the turkey string.

Once a fucking year we would have turkey in November, and he would tie it up with string. And I must have not put the string back (Notice it was my fault.)

How like me not to put the string back.

Got the silent treatment for that one.

Yep. Don't miss that shit at all.

[This message edited by alreadygone at 8:57 AM, June 1st (Monday)]


Posts: 1011 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: mountain states
NeedingGodsHelp
Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, June 1st (Monday)

I think Passive/Aggressive is another term for Responsibility Avoider.

I agree. WH has gone through cycles of avoiding reponsibility that I just didnt' take thetime to put the pieces together and notice. I suppose I should be "thankful" that he "put up with me" for as long as he did, since I am such a controlling, terrible wife.

He is running now from any resposibiliy of the marriage, the kids, financially, everything... He is living it up like a single man with NO responsibilities!!

I believe I first really and truly started to feel "dismissed" soon after my first child was born. (Can we say 17 years ago?) I remember feeling that what I once felt so very keenly - that my then H saw me, saw my very soul and loved me- was less, was absent more and more.

Eventually, I felt he did not see me at all, and of course it was my fault.

I can so realte to this. We were so great together in the beginning! I have loved him for so long! We were open, honest, and so much fun together.. we could talk about our problems. Then, slowly, he just pulled farther and farther away... building up resentment without telling me anything was wrong.

It is so bad now, I have no idea who he is anymore... He has gone from a kind, loving man to a cruel, selfish, lying, cheating monster.

Because of my views on marriage and family, I still pray and hold out hope that one day he will "wake up" from his fog, but I am starting to wonder if that is really possible for a P-A that takes no responsibility for any faults or actions!

We have ben S for 3 months, ad wnything I do I STILL have to hear - "See, there you go having to CONTROL everything. You will never change!"


BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
OntheRocks
Member
Member # 21727
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, June 3rd (Wednesday)

You know...

It must be really great to live your life, never believing that YOU are the problem. Never having to look inside yourself and say "I wonder if I could be doing this better, or "I wonder if I changed just one little part of the way I handle things, our relationship might get better" because GOD KNOWS my P/A WH has NEVER done this!!!!

I was just thinking about this the other day.

Wouldn't it be great to NEVER wonder if it was YOU that made that fight happen, or that made someone sad, or that broke a promise, or that let someone else down??????

What a total relief it would be to KNOW that I am perfect.

There is absolutely nothing that I need to improve on or that I need to change!!!!

My WH cannot take any criticism at all, not really to heart.

I pride myself on being able to change and adapt and improve, but if you never had to do that, life would be so easy.

It would always be someone else's problem or fault, never mine... how relieving!!!

To believe that I was always the smartest, the strongest, the best person in the room would relieve me of sooooo much effort, so much pain, so much anguish, so much responsibility.

It must be really nice to be them - truly.


Divorced 7-8-09
Strength, courage & wisdom -
I pray for it everyday!

Posts: 341 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Heartland
NeedingGodsHelp
Member
Member # 23580
Default  Posted: 3:30 AM, June 4th (Thursday)

I pride myself on being able to change and adapt and improve, but if you never had to do that, life would be so easy.

It would always be someone else's problem or fault, never mine... how relieving!!!

I agree.

WH keeps telling me that it is hopeless because I will never change!!! WTF?!!


BS: me 33
WH: him 33
Married almost 9 yrs, together (off-and-on) 18.5 years
4 kids: 1 mine & 3 ours
DD#1: 2/12/2009 (EA#1)
DD#2: 2/26/2009 (EA/PA w/ tramp#2 - since July 2008)
Status: D 5/2010, Standing, WH living with OW, D filed 4/28/09)

Posts: 440 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Climbing out of hell...
coasterrider
Member
Member # 16464
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, June 7th (Sunday)

Hi all, been away from SI for a while but glad to see there's finally a P/A thread for all of us living this insanity!

Thanks to SI I found the boomerang article about 6 months ago and it just stopped us both in our tracks - it explains 20+ years of M and my H's whole life.

He's been working to improve but as so many here say it's insidious because neither partner in the P/A dance recognizes it when it's going on. And it's such deep-seated behaviour it's very hard to change.

I wanted to share a classic P/A moment - right out of a textbook - that happened just last week on our family holiday.

For years now I've been saddled with organising and running our family vacations - researching, booking, organising, playing tour-guide. Bugs the HELL out of me because it makes me responsible for everything, I never get a restful break and furthermore, my H is IN THE TRAVEL BIZ!!! Why can't he do at least some of this? I even had to book the flights to go home to my mother's funeral because he delayed and delayed, all the time saying he'd do it.

So this year I said OK, let's work on this together. How do we break up the responsibilities and the tasks so we both do some and we both get to relax and enjoy? Lots of talk and dialogue - he's really big on that end of things, not so great on the action - we decided I'd book the hotels for the first week, he'd look after the second. Driving vacation so lots of hotels in lots of cities to be booked.

Well I don't need to tell you that we left on our vacation with ALL my hotels booked and not one of his. I worked really hard at staying calm and detached - it wasn't my responsibility, not my problem. I went with the flow. He roped me in one day in an internet cafe into booking one of his nights - tried to even get the kids to do it for him!!! - and I kicked myself and promised I wouldn't do it again.

So last Thursday we're in our hotel room with checkout - and loss off internet connection - looming in an hour, still without a hotel for that night. He turned to my DD and said can you give your Mum your laptop so she can help search for a hotel with me? I said, well, I'll agree to that and to helping you out if you agree to NEVER leave it to the last day again.

He turned to me and lashed out saying, 'well, at least I don't book crap B&Bs that have us sleeping in the basement.'

I screamed 'EXCUSE ME??' 'EXCUSE ME????? I've been booking hotels for our holidays for 20 years and one night doesn't work out so well?"

I got up, told my DD that we were going to get breakfast, and walked out the room. Fuming, hurt and shocked.

Took me a couple of hours to calm down and see what a totally P/A incident this was - although he'd said he would do 1/2 of the work, he in fact wasn't going to do his part, he didn't want to do his part, he wanted me to be responsible and to take over for him, so he created a crisis by leaving it to the last minute, so I'd have to get involved and rescue him and our family vacation. Textbook P/A!!!

But it's so hard to see when you're in it. It just pushes all my buttons, as our MC would say. And boy is he a pro at it. I just hate it. So frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I've used that word to describe my M to MC/ICs. Frustrating. Makes me want to scream.

I have to say, though, that until that last minute with his attacking outburst I did a REALLY good job of just completely ignoring the P/A behaviour, of staying calm, of not taking responsibility for what he wasn't doing, or for reminding him of his responsibilities. He really pushed it to the limit, tried his level best to get me to dance, but no way I was going to.

I think that's the best we can hope for, is to change our own reactions, to not dance the dance. It goes against my core nature - I want to work together, to share responsibility, to step in when my partner needs me. But the sad truth is, they just play that against you when they're P/A.



I don't know a soul whos not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream thats not been shattered or driven to its knees
Oh, but it's alright, its alright
For we lived so well so long

Posts: 2469 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: Europe
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, June 7th (Sunday)

I have to say, though, that until that last minute with his attacking outburst I did a REALLY good job of just completely ignoring the P/A behaviour, of staying calm, of not taking responsibility for what he wasn't doing, or for reminding him of his responsibilities. He really pushed it to the limit, tried his level best to get me to dance, but no way I was going to.

I think that's the best we can hope for, is to change our own reactions, to not dance the dance. It goes against my core nature - I want to work together, to share responsibility, to step in when my partner needs me. But the sad truth is, they just play that against you when they're P/A.

I can hear everything you said here. I have one of these to a T. Leaves everything up to me, he will tell me because I am so much better at it then him to try to "compliment" me into it and then when that does not work he will wait to the very last second and pick the very worse thing. Then wait for me to implode. So then you try not to, go to the very worse place, keep your mouth shut and then they up the ante and do something even more childish to just finally get a reaction out of you.

I am starting to feel that the only way to cure a P/A is to just walk away from them. As there are many days I truly feel like I am going nuts.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, June 7th (Sunday)

How many of your P/A spouses have agreed to go / are going to IC to try and cope with their behaviour? Did they go willingly?

We only discovered a 'name' for my H's behaviour during MC. Once we started to look up the condition it was like a 'light bulb' moment for both of us. It's as if all the frustrations and arguments etc of the past have suddenly been explained - it's a great relief to find that all the niggles and doubts I had were not wrong!

H for his part almost feels relieved that he has a name for how he's been behaving. He read through a passage of 'traits' and couldn't help exclaiming 'fuck' at almost every line.
The fact that he has acknowledged his behaviour and is currently going to IC (anger management and assertiveness to try and break out of the pernicious cycle), does give me hope and so far, when I see his P/A behaviour rearing it’s ugly head I pull him up about it. I’m not saying I get a positive reaction from him when I do this but for the first time he is questioning his motives and actions. That can’t be bad can it?


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 11:00 PM, June 8th (Monday)

How many of your P/A spouses have agreed to go / are going to IC to try and cope with their behaviour? Did they go willingly?

...

H for his part almost feels relieved that he has a name for how he's been behaving. He read through a passage of 'traits' and couldn't help exclaiming 'fuck' at almost every line.
The fact that he has acknowledged his behaviour and is currently going to IC (anger management and assertiveness to try and break out of the pernicious cycle), does give me hope ... for the first time he is questioning his motives and actions. That can’t be bad can it?

My WH is going with me to MC. Our C is focusing on two things: my pain, and his behavior. It is helping and he is having some of the same reactions as your WH.

I have found that the best thing I can do is to try to not attack him as a person when he lets me down, but to let him know specifically what behavior of his is causing problems for me and trying to phrase it in terms of my feelings rather than his motivations.

good luck, kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
OntheRocks
Member
Member # 21727
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, June 10th (Wednesday)

I am starting to feel that the only way to cure a P/A is to just walk away from them.

I'm not sure that walking away is a way to cure *them* - BUT (and it's a big one) - walking away can sometimes be the only way to save *yourself*

I just finished reading "Living With the P/A Man" by Scott Wetzler and quite honestly according to him, you are either going to have to learn to be a psychologist yourself, everyday, and for the rest of your life with him, or your only other option is to remove yourself from his influence.

Only you can decide if the extra effort and self-control that you are going to have to exert on a daily basis is worth it.

How many of your P/A spouses have agreed to go / are going to IC to try and cope with their behaviour? Did they go willingly?

My WH begrudgingly went to MC with me for 3 or 4 sessions. He canceled the next appt. without telling me until it was time to go again. His reason at the time was that it was too expensive.

Now that we are S he has stated that he canceled because I was controlling the counselor, turning all her attention on to him, and that she was letting me.

I had no idea until a few months ago that my WH is P/A, now that I do, I see that he could not/can not stand to be criticized in any way - and he cannot understand that I/we were addressing his behavior and not attacking him personally.

The book has been a complete eye-opener for me as to what happened in our relationship. And has also helped me to see that his behaviors and attitudes, really don't have anything to do with me, and definitely are not my responsibility or fault.


Divorced 7-8-09
Strength, courage & wisdom -
I pray for it everyday!

Posts: 341 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Heartland
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, June 10th (Wednesday)

You are absolutely correct. I phrased that completely wrong.

To cure *myself* I may need to walk away. It really never ends. They seem to get better for a bit because they will try really hard to hide it for awhile but it does come back out if they never seek any kind of help for it on their own.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
pitofdespair
New Member
Member # 24154
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, June 14th (Sunday)

I only recently started posting, but among other major issues, I always THOUGHT my WH was p-a. Reading through these posts, I was so shocked at how perfectly the behavior described my WH. The anger below the surface, the insistence that nothing was wrong, the distancing, the double standards, the onset of aggressive-aggressive behavior, the maintaining the most ridiculous logic until I was in an absolute frenzy of anger...and then the calm satisfaction of having made an absolute bitch of me (I know; I had to be part of that). The absolute absence of any kind of intimacy or sharing.

Thank you, thank you for this info. I can't believe how complicit and problematic I have been in this push and pull. Every behavior written about p-a in this thread could apply to my WH!

Sigh....


Me: BS
Him: Lying, cheating ho
Married 26 years
D-Day 1: 12-31-08
Still trickling?

Posts: 19 | Registered: May 2009
Faulty_Hope
Member
Member # 23155
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, June 14th (Sunday)

Absolutely amazing.

Here I am, officially divorced July 23rd, bravely and happily moving on with my life, but there's still been this personal feeling of guilt on my part for my role as a wife during our marriage. I've felt like a monster, a woman that treated her husband like a child during the marriage, because I couldn't "accept him for who he was" according to him, and I really felt I couldn't either. After reading this thread, and the responses from everyone, it is now becoming evident that I'm NOT a complete monster, that his PA behavior is why I felt depressed, hopeless, and a complete raving bitch all the time!

I feel somewhat freed after reading about all of this. My stbxh could never:

-Make any decision on his own
-be spontaneous
-grow a spine
-converse with anyone in an adult manner
-plan and execute anything
-complete even simplest of tasks
-be the husband I needed

I would lie in bed at night, completely depressed and often cried silently, feeling like this neverending hell-hole cycle would eat me up. I felt I was being unreasonable (for asking that he act like a husband and not a 10 year old?) and coming down too hard on him. I had enormous guilt, and prayed that he would cheat or I would find out he was cheating just so I could escape this terrible state. 2 months later I got my wish, although no one really wishes to find out their partner has been having an A their entire marriage, I feel I was given a second chance.

Thank you for posting this thread. I am just one step closer to being healed.


Me: BXW 32
D: 7/23/09

Posts: 137 | Registered: Mar 2009
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 7:02 PM, June 14th (Sunday)

Our MC talked to us about the "parent-child" dynamic, also said you could call this type of relationship as it becomes more disfunctional "controller-controlled" or worse, "accuser-blamed" or "punisher-victim".

In talking about Family Of Origin (FOO) issues, she said that adult children of alcoholics have certain behaviors that they learned and developed at an early age to deal with their chaotic and "unsafe" homelife, that they bring with them into adulthood that don't necessarily create problems for them in non-intimate relationships. They can get through life being the way they are at work, and with friends, because they can change jobs, move around, etc, spending only a limited amount of time with any one group of people or individual person so that their behaviors do not become dysfunctional because others do not develop habitual responses to them and mold themselves to work around their quirks.

The point she made to me was that the home life was not a safe place to show your own emotions due to the dysfunction and unpredictability of drunken adults, and that it was very important to read the other person to find out whether they were going to have an outburst or whatever, and to figure out how to get what they wanted/needed indirectly rather than be upfront and risk rejection/condemnation/abuse/whatever. So the child learned to A) push down their own needs and emotions so they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed by what they couldn't have (things, love, respect, etc) or reveal the truth about themselves which would set them up for more abuse and B) become sensitive to others in a way that allows them to effectively soothe/not upset/manipulate the other person so that there's a chance they might avoid trouble/get what they want.

I don't know if this is making any sense but MC said passive-aggressive is a bit of a misnomer, that a better term is passive-resistant. That passivity is the key -- don't react, don't act, don't do anything that might get you in trouble. That the world is out to get you. You are the victim. Find a way to get out of trouble without pissing off the big guy. If you don't like something don't ever say so directly right then. Let it come out indirectly, eventually, later, when you are far enough away in space and time that you won't get hurt. Try to imagine what its like for a little kid to learn how to survive when being raised by drunks. What would you quickly learn to do or not do? Right away those behaviors would be established and developed and when the child finally left home that's what they would do as an adult.

MC said these behaviors do not work for adults who are in long term committed relationship without the other person in their life becoming very angry because the PA partner doesn't say what they really mean, do what they say, etc. The subtlety of passive resistance makes the partner crazy because the thing that is the cause of frustration isn't right there in front of you any more. It's gone. It was last week when he said he would do the laundry and now you are out of clean pants. You are angry because of his INACTION and his deflection. He said he would do something to get you off his back in a way that would keep him out of trouble right then. Only later does the truth come out that he really didn't mean it. He just wanted you to quit nagging so he said whatever to calm you down (see he's keeping himself safe from your emotions). And HE didn't know he didn't mean it at the time. He WAS sincere, on the surface. To your face at that moment he wanted you to believe him and relax and let it go. He just underneath wasn't into it all that much. He never 100% acknowledged that he was taking responsiblity for something and would later be held accountable for it. And then things got in the way, and you calmed down, and he forgot that he said he would do it. And so when you lash out at him for not doing laundry he feels victimized by your anger. Why are you being such a nag and a bitch to him? It's so unfair and uncalled for. He's just sitting there eating his breakfast all innocent while you're trying to get dressed and getting enraged over something that in his mind has nothing to do with him.

So anyway, long way of me rambling, I've come to terms with his P-A behaviors as being a defense mechanism he has from FOO issues that have nothing to do with me. My approach is to try not to fall into the trap of "parenting" him, or of allowing him to be vague or brush off stuff when he needs to be clear.

I'm still hopeless most of the time identifying when we are getting into the parent-child mode but we are both more aware of where we've been if not where we are.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, June 15th (Monday)

Has anyone here had any experience using the Enneagram of Personality Types to try to understand yourself and your partner better?

My WH, who has well established P-A behaviors, has been "typed" by someone very experienced with the Enneagram, as a type Nine, the "Peacemaker" or the "Mediator". I am a type Seven, the "Enthusiast" or "Adventurer".

The Nine description on this website http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeNine.asp

reads in part "can also be too willing to go along with others to keep the peace. They want everything to go smoothly and be without conflict, but they can also tend to be complacent, simplifying problems and minimizing anything upsetting. They typically have problems with inertia and stubbornness."

"Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them."

the following descriptions describe someone who is basically very healthy and has functional relationships with others:

"At their best, Nines become self-possessed, feeling autonomous and fulfilled: have great equanimity and contentment because they are present to themselves. Paradoxically, at one with self, and thus able to form more profound relationships. Intensely alive, fully connected to self and others.

Deeply receptive, accepting, unselfconscious, emotionally stable and serene. Trusting of self and others, at ease with self and life, innocent and simple. Patient, unpretentious, good-natured, genuinely nice people.

Optimistic, reassuring, supportive: have a healing and calming influence—harmonizing groups, bringing people together: a good mediator, synthesizer, and communicator."

The following describes someone who is sort of average in terms of mental health, a mix of good qualities and not so good personality traits:


"Nines fear conflicts, so become self-effacing and accommodating, idealizing others and "going along" with their wishes, saying "yes" to things they do not really want to do. Fall into conventional roles and expectations. Use philosophies and stock sayings to deflect others.

Active, but disengaged, unreflective, and inattentive. Do not want to be affected, so become unresponsive and complacent, walking away from problems, and "sweeping them under the rug." Thinking becomes hazy and ruminative, mostly comforting fantasies, as they begin to "tune out" reality, becoming oblivious. Emotionally indolent, unwillingness to exert self or to focus on problems: indifference.

Begin to minimize problems, to appease others and to have "peace at any price." Stubborn, fatalistic, and resigned, as if nothing could be done to change anything. Into wishful thinking, and magical solutions. Others frustrated and angry by their procrastination and unresponsiveness."

And the following describes very unhealthy traits when the disfunctional behaviors and thought patterns take over:

"Nines can be highly repressed, undeveloped, and ineffectual. Feel incapable of facing problems: become obstinate, dissociating self from all conflicts. Neglectful and dangerous to others.

Wanting to block out of awareness anything that could affect, them, they dissociate so much that they eventually cannot function: numb, depersonalized.

They finally become severely disoriented and catatonic, abandoning themselves, turning into shattered shells. Multiple personalities possible. Generally corresponds to the Schizoid and Dependent personality disorders. "

It seems to me that many of our P-A partners may fit into this personality type and that when they are healthy we love them dearly and when their behaviors become dysfunctional they can be sucked into fantasy and the fog as a way of escaping what is going on inside.

I would LOVE some feedback on this if anyone else can relate.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
roccodom
Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, June 17th (Wednesday)

Just had a lovely fight with my PA H.

Earlier in the day, we were at the pool and saw a friend of ours. I immediately say - "why don't you two take the boys to a baseball game this year". Well - after the friend left. I already realized what i had done - volunteering him. So I turned to him and said - "I'm sorry - I don't know why I did that. It was completely wrong and I apologize"

Well, a few hours later, he starts to get really angry at me about it. I stopped him and said "Wait, I recognized it and apologized to you for it - why yell at me?"

He goes on to say "You always volunteer me". And you know what - "I don't". I am very careful about including him in anything. My policy is "You have to ask him, I can't speak for him" If anything, what I did today was an anomoly.

He seriously was trying to make a huge statement about me and a right to be pissed. He went on and on. I remained calm and asked why he was getting SO angry. which of course made him angrier. Ask him to give me an example of when I might have done that to him in the past? He got even angrier.

I wouldn't let his anger run me off though. He acted like a jerk. I kept asking why he was so angry

So tired - never gonna change


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
hollow-promise
Member
Member # 16905
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, June 18th (Thursday)

The Affair and the P/A FWH:

There is much discussion about the P/A spouse; but having looked back on his affair, it was clear that he had sex with the MOW when he didn't get something he wanted because I wouldn't go along with it.

He had sex with her 4 times and each time was shortly after he was denied something.

Number one: He needed my help with his business and resented the fact that I was "smarter" than him. She had been offering sex for about 5 months before that and when he got mad at me he had sex with her to get back at me, without actually dealing with his frustration.

Number Two: He wanted to retire early; and I pointed out the fact that he would not make enough money and would have to get a part-time job. He was mad that I stopped his "plan" and had sex with her.

Number Three: He made a mistake at a shop in Mexico because he didn't understand pesos. He thought he was buying a watch for 79.00 and the charge to the room was 790.00. It was on my credit card and we could not afford that purchase. The shop refused to take it back so we had a huge fight over his impulsive spending. When we returned from our trip he had sex with the MOW to get back at me.

Number 4: He decided he wanted a new boat and told me that the payment would be the same as the old boat. I said that would be OK if we didn't have to take on a larger payment. I got to closing and found out that it was double the amount of the old payment. I refused to sign the loan and canceled the sale. He had sex with her the last time to get back at me for denying him his "dream boat".

This explained why get could throw her under the bus after she told me about the affair. He used her to get back at me. Unfortunately, by this time the MOW was "in love" with FWH and refused to let him go. She made his life a nightmare for 18 months after he dumped her. He quit his job to get away from her, and that is when she emailed me.

Before I read about P/A persons, I was at a loss to understand why he would have an affair if he didn't love her; I couldn't make sense of it. Now it clears up many unanswered questions.

We went to Retrouvaille and that was the first step in teaching him how to communicate and not stuff his feelings. I am trying very hard not to buy into his P/A behaviors.

Another thing P/A people tend to do is withhold sex when they don't get their way. It gives them control over the situation without saying a word. My P/A FWH still will do this; but I do call him on it and he is getting better about discussing his frustrations in a productive way.

It is my hope that with improved communication he won't act out by having an affair when he doesn't get his way. I can only hope that this is the case.


Me-BS 59
Him-WS 55
MOW-49 borderline personality nightmare
D-Day 3/21/07, my daughter's birthday
Married 9 years-working on R after 5 months of partial truths

Posts: 149 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Midwest
coasterrider
Member
Member # 16464
Default  Posted: 5:09 AM, June 20th (Saturday)

I have to say that my WH was shocked but felt a tremendous relief and liberation when he read about PA. He knew it was him to a T - he was the one who took on the label before I gave it to him. And his therapist confirmed it - certainly this explains so much and makes sense from his FOO issues.

He says he hates being that way, never chose it for himself (nightmare narcissistic mother who was an enmeshed control-freak who invalidated and squashed everyone's emotions because hers came first and she couldn't stand to hear about anyone elses) and has been working his BUTT off to change.

And it IS possible - to at least improve and lessen the behaviour. I think they have to see it in themselves and want to be different, and work really hard at it - you can see my earlier post where he slid back into it really badly. But after I posted we talked about it, and he laughed and said, man oh man, you're so right! I can totally see what I was doing. Let's try and catch it earlier next time. I'm sorry. I'll try and do better.

I've had to really change too, though. It's a dance. One that we reluctantly get drawn into, but a compelling one, too - hard not to react to this behaviour when it's so crazy-making!

But I've worked to try and see it when it appears and calmly point it out, not shriek or yell - his mantra from his mother was 'Don't upset your spouse' which really meant, don't upset your mother, and which he internalized as don't upset me (him).

I've tried really hard to create a safe-zone for him to change. Safety is a big deal for him - PA is just one of his issues, intimacy being the other - are they entwined? probably. But making it safe for him to try and change and to look at the pain inside has been key. Our MC says that's making a huge difference for him. It's really hard to do when I'm in pain myself and he's pushing my buttons, but I want him/us fixed more than I want to be the victim or feed my pain (not always successful, I'll fully admit!).

My H is trying to get in touch with his anger. It's coming. But as he says, it's coming out in blasts and bursts and not very elegantly. I've had to endure some of his outbursts - justified anger at something I've done but not handled very well - but at least he's dealing with his feelings IN THE MOMENT, not chewing on them, suppressing them, having them eat away inside and come out some other way. And I think this has been the source of the greatest improvement. And my response to these outbursts is a big smile, actually - it's not about the content but about the behaviour - he's honestly feeling something and expressing it. Yay!

He's learning to be aware of his own emotions - is he stressed, is he angry, and why? What's causing it, and deal with that in the moment. That has made SUCH a difference to who he is. He's living honestly and openly and in the moment. He doesn't have secret emotions and feelings. He doesn't create secret worlds where he can escape those emotions because he doesn't know how to deal with them, express them, liberate them.

Yes, he still can slide back. But he feels so much better about himself, stepping up to being who he really is inside, and feeling emotions and owning them instead of running from them. Huge improvement in his self-esteem from this. Moving out from under his mother to stand on his own two feet in the world.

Just want to give some hope here - it feels very bleak reading about PA and the life-sentence of living with it. But it CAN change. They CAN change and be much happier, more liberated people.


I don't know a soul whos not been battered
I don't have a friend who feels at ease
I don't know a dream thats not been shattered or driven to its knees
Oh, but it's alright, its alright
For we lived so well so long

Posts: 2469 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: Europe
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, June 20th (Saturday)

Wow, thanks coasterrider,

This came at a really helpful time for me.

I am a bit peeved at WH about a couple things right now. One of them is that he comes to bed late. Sometimes as much as an hour after me. He is on the computer, and since much of his EA/PA with OW#2 was done via chatting on facebook, I usually brood when he does this and feel suspicious. I don't trust him yet and feel that it's possible there is still something (or something new) going on with OW behind my back. I don't know, for sure but I can't shake the sense that it is possible and that he's lying to me about NC and good boundaries.

So I trigger, I'm suspicious. I told him I wish that he would come to bed at the same time as me, that my dozing off feeling suspicious makes me angry, and then he wakes me when he comes to bed, I harbor unpleasant feelings and don't want sex.

So, he blames me. Tells me it's because I make too much commotion going to bed and he gets bothered by that. So he waits until I've settled in. He says he gets nervous about not being able to go to sleep (sometimes he has a bit of insomnia and when that happens he gets very anxious, upset, and messed up the next day).

The other thing I'm stewing on is that he hates taking separate cars to work (we work together). Even if this means that I have to drive back and get him after doing an errand that would be on the way home for me, or if I have to stay at work late (sometimes for hours) while he finishes a project. I would like to move our home and rent some place closer to our business so one of us can use a bike to get home. I don't like it when he bikes home really late because I feel it's dangerous. I feel trapped at work and conned into being his chauffeur, and disrespected as if my time is less valuable than his.

So I tried to bring this up as well and he just gets angry. Tries to come up with all kinds of solutions to my wanting to go home that are really not acceptable to me and doesn't address the fact that I feel disrespected. Makes it sound like I'm the one who is creating barriers to getting home when I want to be home. Tells me I don't communicate that I want to go home. Again, makes me at fault. He is angry that I want to leave where we are living because he really likes it there.

And it just makes me want to lash out at him and really let him know how I'm sick and tired of the blame shifting and being made at fault when I've got a complaint about our home life.

And I know if I lash out nothing good will come of it because it just makes him defensive and unable to process his feelings because they get so buried underneath feeling attacked. At the same time I feel like I can't let it drop because it's affecting my life, dammit. And if I bring this up again, I feel like I'm the one taking responsibility for our relationship, that I'm parenting him and letting him avoid the responsibility he needs to share in working on our M.

So frustrating. I am so happy to know that someone out there with a P-A SO is finding improvement and success in their M.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
ReGenerate
Member
Member # 22272
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, June 20th (Saturday)

This thread makes so much sense to me! My STBXH is P/A and now things seem to fall into place. I am not to blame, I did not drive him into the arms of the OW. His refusal to act or take responsibility drove me into the role of MANAGER and thus began the end of our marriage. The only time he ever took a stance was when he WANTED something (house, child, etc), but as soon as he got what he wanted, he shirked the added responsibility that went along with it.

My P/A stbxh watched at least 2 hrs of TV a day, and on his day off, sometimes 10 or 12! And he TAKES NAPS! For HOURS! Good Lord, I am glad it's over.

NOW, what are the early warning signs that someone is P/A, so I can avoid thoses types? And I have a son, how do I raise him to NOT be P/A?


Posts: 282 | Registered: Jan 2009
hemademesingle
Member
Member # 21281
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, June 20th (Saturday)

I to unfortunately married a p/a, if I had only known 21 yrs ago when his mommy said "he's never completed any projects" to run not walk.

We are currently separated, which is for the better. We were to move 3000 miles away from everything we know. Three days before we were to leave I called him on a lie, and he got aggressive and told me I wasn't worth moving with, sounded good to me. He left and I have stayed in the house with the kids.

The thing that baffles me the most about him is that he now won't communicate at all not that he did much while living together. There will be no discussion of child support, are we selling the house, is he taking the dog, it will be total silence.

I'm glad he's thousands of miles away last time we were separated he creeped me out everytime I saw him.

He was diagnosed by an IC but he only went to about 6 appts. I've done alot of research on the subject and I keep going back to this one line.


"Sometimes, the best thing to do is just walk away from the relationship. To change their passive-aggessive behaviour, a person has to want to change and in some cases, they just don’t believe there is anything wrong."


Posts: 372 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Canada
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, June 20th (Saturday)

hollow-promise

I so felt that way I can't tell you how many times! When I would not take care of one more stupid mistake I got punished. His A to this day was about punishing me, I think this is what has me so unwell to this day. I just cannot comprehend it.

Very good post. Spot on.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
hollow-promise
Member
Member # 16905
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, June 20th (Saturday)

Realitybites:


Once I discovered the P/A affair; many things made sense to me. He had a very controlling father and was taught not to express himself or show his feelings.

He wouldn't discuss his frustrations with me so we could deal with it; so he was ripe for the MOW to move in on him, and she was his sounding board. He didn't have to deal with his shortcomings (pun intended-he has ED issues) with the MOW because he didn't care about her and she had no control over him.

He admits he never had feelings for her and frankly didn't really like her at all. She was his release for his anger toward me. He even told her it was just sex and if he were single he wouldn't have a relationship with her. She still kept coming around though.

We worked through some issues after our house was hit by a tornado and we had to work together. Right after that he dumped her and tried to be a better husband to me.

The key issue is will he do this again if communication breaks down and he gets mad at me. We have addressed old issues and I think we are on the right track. I will call him on his P/A behaviors and don't buy into the "silent treatment".

He needs to want to change and so far he is trying very hard to do so. But P/A behavior is part of his personality and will require tremendous effort on his part. It is better now than it was before. I keep hoping that it will continue for the sake of our marriage.


Me-BS 59
Him-WS 55
MOW-49 borderline personality nightmare
D-Day 3/21/07, my daughter's birthday
Married 9 years-working on R after 5 months of partial truths

Posts: 149 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Midwest
Zolotas
Member
Member # 15271
Shutup  Posted: 11:05 AM, June 26th (Friday)

I'm a first time poster here at this forum. I've been reading through the threads and I think I need to be here - I need advice as I don't know how to handle or deal with this on going issue that is definitely having a huge impact on my marriage. It's taken me a while to understand really how passive aggressive my fwh really is. I don't think I can condense it enough to give a real picture...first, let me say, thank you to anyone that can read this novel, digest it and give me sound, level advice..It's really long and I apologize in advance for this. I feel like I'm ready to jump off (pushed) the Golden Gate head first...this whole saga has been brewing for 27 yrs...I need help. I believe it's residual from my fwh messed up, emotionally bankrupt childhood, all the things that led and allowed him to have an A.

I'll start this with the fact that I am a LTA survivor - it's been over 4 yrs since d-day...I'm past it, I have healed (as much as one can heal from this traumatic painful hammer to the head and heart)...my fwh has done everything to help me heal, for us to heal and to go forward...for that, I'm grateful. My marriage is good - he shows it in every way and everyday...except when it comes to his family.

I understand why and how the A started and continued for almost 8 yrs...I get it and accept it (not condoning it)...I get it was not me, and certainly not her (the Slut Monkey that she is)..but I get it...I get it was his dysfunctional childhood, his abandonment issues, his lack of love and touch from his father, his stepmother (since he was 3 yrs old) and always being the 'odd' kid out that allowed him the permission to feel better about himself and have an A.... I get that he realized the OW could destroy his world, she manipulated and blackmailed him (she admitted this) and was not a big enough person to call it off out of fear, I get the coward part and the P/A...I totally get it...we've worked hard on us, our marriage and our communication..it's all good...except...............

His family...this is my biggest problem. It's been my biggest problem and I fear for the future of our marriage.

For my fwh's entire life, he has jumped up and down, waving his arms and screamed "here I am, I've done GREAT, I'm educated, I made it, I've achieved the ultimate dream, I have succeeded" (none have them have achieved anything other than making more dysfunctional kids)...my husb (no more "FWH", he's my faithful, loyal husb) has for his entire life, since he found out his real mother abandoned him at 9 mo old (due to infidelity and threats of physical harm from his bio father), has only wanted his bio father to recognize him, love him and show it...Not once while I have been married has his family, particularly his dad, ever recognized my husb for anything...not even being his son. My husb has done everything he can do to shout over the silence and dysfunction.... nothing works...I get this, however, my husb does not..and keeps working and trying to be the son of all sons.It's all happening at my expense. It makes me so sad and sick to realize this situation. It makes me sick to hear my husb tell his father via phone "I love you" and his father doesn't respond. I see the sadness this brings my husb.

Not once in my husbs life has he heard from any family member, "I love you" or anything other term of endearment, no recognition, no conversation about feelings, wants or needs. Every problem is pushed under the rug and ignored. The entire family is emotionally retarded. FIL was a cheater, Grandfather and uncles were cheaters, Aunt was a cheater(her BS committed suicide after learning that 4 of his 8 children weren't his), his brother is a cheater. His sister is a 40 yr old never been married alcoholic that's 250 pounds overweight - she's a miserable hateful person. No matter what you say, she says opposite - rude comments fly out of her mouth continuously. Her attitude is that she is better than everyone else, knows more than anyone else. If you're not blood family, you're nothing but a piece of shit and she's quite clear about this with her behavior and her words.

MIL is quiet - but talks behind your back. She is unable to carry on a conversation about anything other than the weather. Her actions speak louder than any words - she is mean and spiteful. Not once in my 27 yr marriage has she picked up the phone to chat with me (I've tried but got the cold one word answers -that was 25 yrs ago, I've never called her again). She's never recognized our son (the first grandchild born). On birthday's she sends money to each person - $20 and a card - on my birthday, she sends me $10. Not once has she been hospitable towards me. Example: a group of 6 of us were on the deck and she offered to make coffee - she asked out the window who would like a cup? - all 6 of us wanted some, including me. I offered to come and help her, she said she was okay. When she brought out the tray with the coffee and cups, she poured a cup for each person in the group, except me - there wasn't even a cup for me to pour my own. My passive husb just sat there and never said or did a thing.

Before D-day, my husb moved me to his hometown..a small Midwestern, in the middle of no place town...where his family lives (pop 900). I bought a business, worked 19 hrs a day, tried to be part of his family...did everything I could do for my husb..I didn't know he was in the midst of an 8 yr A but I knew something was wrong with him and I was willing do to anything to make him happy...Our goal was to make the business work, have him retire there and build our dream home and live a peaceful quiet life in the country....I never knew that he was actually running and trying to hide from the Slut Monkey...and trying to keep Slut Monkey from finding me...(that's another story).

For 27 yrs, I have tried to be part of his family. I've done everything possible to get on and love the family that I married into.(my own parents died when I was young).. it's been useless. His step mother has zero emotions, his father says NOTHING, his younger sister (by 9 yrs) is nothing but a raging, bitter, 40 yr old spinster and a drunk..his two brothers have dysfunctional (one cheated big time) marriages.

While I lived there in this small town, after moving from a major metropolis (LA, CA) to a town where I couldn't purchase a loaf of wheat bread without driving 125 miles through blizzards, wind or rain.....running a business alone (my husb was still in CA and commuting back and forth every 2 weeks), that was the hub of a public gathering place.. I was in a place that was totally foreign to me..the weather, the language, the lifestyle, the food, everything....I never once had his family to lean on..not once while I lived there did they acknowledge that I was there, except that I heard my MIL was saying horrible things about me behind my back. I was alone completely to deal with life in a small, rural, gossip filled town, where I didn't know anyone, except my own employees. Not once did my MIL call me, invite me, or acknowledge me. After I moved there, I only heard gossip from the locals about the nasty things my MIL said about me, our bad decision to move there, our business we bought, and our attempt to relocate 2000 miles from what we knew as home. We made this move for my husb to be near his family that he really sees as a wonderful loving family.

All these yrs, my husb has tried in vain to be acknowledged..his family is without emotion, without words, without feelings, without anything.... I see it, I get it...

I've never been treated so horrible by anybody, much less by family - my husb is treated the same way, however, he doesn't see their actions as hurtful, instead, he makes excuses for them and their behavior.

The following are just examples of a few of the things they've done in the last 27 yrs:

No acknowledgement of any gifts, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Christmas, birthdays, - nothing. I"m still not sure they ever received them.

Thanksgiving - we traveled with a small child 2100 miles to attend Thanksgiving at their home - we left home at 3am - got stuck in a blizzard in MPLS, finally arrived at the closest airport (125 miles), rented a car, arrived at their home after 16 hrs of travel...no welcome, no offer of a meal, nothing for our young son ( 8 yrs old), no place in the town to eat, - I ended up going to a gas station and buying cheese sticks for our son as he was hungrey. On Thanksgiving, everyone had a chair, except me..I ended up on the basement steps, alone and without food - (MIL cooked a 13 pound turkey for 19 people)...by the time the platter went around..I was standing without food...this after 2 days of no food and no offer of food...that was 1996 - it's only gotten worse since then.

It's like my MIL does anything and everything she can to stab me and hurt me without words...so does my SIL....my problem, my husb dismisses their actions because he wants so desperately to be recognized by them and believe they are a loving normal family.

I lived there, on my own, waiting for my husb to join me during 04 and 05 which is when he confessed to the A and him running and hiding from it and the fact that he tried to hide me from the Slut Monkey...Not once in the time I lived there (I lived across the street from the Inlaws) did they even acknowledge that I was there, much less owned a business in town, was part of the community, was there alone, was lonely...nothing from them.

While I was there, I needed emergency surgery. The Dr. at the small clinic called my MIL at 7pm to advise her that they ordered an emergency medi-flight to take me to the closest major city for emergency surgery (450 miles). I was there alone and in pain. My MIL worked at the clinic and had for 30 yrs. The Dr. asked her to accompany me and help communicate with my husb who was at the time in AZ for business. Her response was that she likes to go to bed at 10pm, so therefore, she couldn't go. This woman is only 62 yrs old, not like she's 80. The Dr. called one of my employees to go with me. Not sure which hurt worse, the pain or my MIL's lack of care. My husb was mad, but never said anything to her about it.

In 27 yrs these people have NEVER acknowledged my existance, our son's existence...he doesn't get it. My husb blameshifts their behavior on to me like it's my fault. Or his solution is that I should not have gone with him when he visits...I disagree..I should be able to go anyplace he goes, especially on vacation. While my husb has earned my trust back and our marriage is once again solid, I still have fear about infidelity, and especially with him in his hometown, lots of alcohol flowing and the fact that I know which women, both single and married in town have no problem hitting on married men..it's rampant there. I know and trust my husb would not go that route again, however, I'm uncomfortable with him going alone. I shouldn't have to stay home while he goes on vacation. We still own properties there, I have a right to go there and with him.

We were there 14 months ago.., my SIL treated me like shit, she antagonized me, criticized me, slammed me, controlled my conversations with other relatives in a social setting... it was all bad. My MIL said nothing, sat back and never made a comment, even though I am sure she saw the whole picture.....my husb on the other hand, I told him, brought it to light with him what was happening.... he ignored it all. On the way home, mind you a 4 hr drive to the airport, 2 layovers because of connections, and a long flight..blamed me...told me that I should not have gone on vacation with him and the whole situation was a big mess.

There's so much more...27 yrs of abuse by his family and his need and desire to be the "good son"...we're supposed to go there in 3 weeks for his fathers big 75th birthday and 300 relatives in attendance...Not sure how I am going to cope...I'm having huge triggers, crying daily at the thought of going and seeing this family. My husb was very hurt when I told him that I didn't think I could go and why. He said he would stop his sister and mom and take them aside and confront them as soon as they misbehave again...he has said that before, but instead, I was blamed. His history shows that he is not going to stand up for me.

While I lived there,.. I learned of his father's infidelities which is why my husb was abandoned as a baby by his bio mom. I found out a ton of family info about this family I no longer want to even know...In fact, I want to take back my maiden name because I don't want to be associated with this family.

Nothing I say, or do has an effect on my husb..when I make a mention of how they have treated me, us and our son, he gets defensive, and a fight erupts..A huge one at that. I'm so at the end of my rope...I am so dreading this 4 days I have to spend with this dysfunctional hurtful family...and yet my husb doesn't see any of it..he defends them. He won't stand up for me, our son or our marriage..even though he says he will...he doesn't.

What am I going to do? .... this ongoing problem is having a HUGE impact on my marriage, our relationship and my ability to work this forward...how in hell do I deal with this, how do I get and allow my husb to see that his family is not "Leave it to Beaver" and they are all messed up and hurtful to his wife and family?

Only in the last couple of yrs, since d-day has he stood up for me with others that have been out of line, but not with his family. He called his mother on the carpet about a couple of things, such as the Thanksgiving we were there and she didn't set a place for me - apparently his mother told his vile sister that my husb talked to his mom and she threw it in our face and said that my husb hurt his moms feelings...WTF? My feelings have never mattered with these people.

It's so apparent and in your face with their behavior that our 23 yr old son refuses to ever visit or speak to them again. He was disgusted with them the last time he was there - that's another story as how they treated him..lets just say, it wasn't nice at all.

There's so much more about this family and the yrs of abuse from them. I truly and wholeheartedly believe they are the reason he had an A. Deep dark hurt from his childhood, lack of emotional love, confusion and survival as a child led him down the dark path when things in his adult life were stressful, especially his job. He never learned to communicate.

Today, our marriage is good, his communication is on top...he's done everything right, except this problem with his family. I realize he can't change them, but I do believe it's his job to protect me from them and stand up to them.

I guess what I want him to say is "if you can't treat my wife with respect, then I won't be coming here again". He won't do that. When I said this to him, the look of horror on his face told me that he would never say anything like this to them. I truly believe he would pick his family over his wife and son..yet, in every other area of his life, I am top priority as is our son.. I just can't understand all of this...I'd never let my family treat him with such hurt and disrespect, why does he allow this?

If you've made it this far - thanks. I'm desperate for sound advice. I need to know how to draw a line in the sand and not allow them to cross it anymore and be disrespected by this family and yet not cause any more problems in my marriage.

Thoughts, advice, comments??
Again, sorry it's so long.
Zolotas


Posts: 340 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: On my chair
hollow-promise
Member
Member # 16905
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, June 27th (Saturday)

Zolotas:

I seems that his family is a "closed unit" and are unwilling to let you into the unit. My daughters inlaws are also a closed unit, but fortunately she has been included, however I have not. They will plan holidays and exclude my FWH and I from the activities unless my daughter presses the issue. But, they are not welcoming when we are allowed to join.

The only suggestion I might make is for your husband to get counseling for his issues. He has to deal with things before he can give you the support you need. He might not think he has a problem, so couples counseling might be the best choice for you. Good luck.


Me-BS 59
Him-WS 55
MOW-49 borderline personality nightmare
D-Day 3/21/07, my daughter's birthday
Married 9 years-working on R after 5 months of partial truths

Posts: 149 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Midwest
down4now
Member
Member # 23635
Default  Posted: 3:19 AM, June 28th (Sunday)

I can only repeate hollow promises advice - Ic for him is a must (it's already having an effect on my p/A husband), and MC for both of you - you need a 'referee' to get your feelings across without being shouted down and blamed - that was a great help to us as well (the MC very calmly said to my H after he launched into defensive mode - 'Can you just be quiet and let your W speak and see what she has to say about how she feels?').

best of luck

(((hugs)))

D4N


BS (me) 44
WS (him)45
Married 21yrs, Together 25 yrs
Children boy 14, girl 19
D-Day(s)26th Feb, 1st March, 12th March 2009
5 Month EA/PA
OW: 52,former friend.
NC 4th March 09. Broken by OW 13th Aug, 20th Nov
On the road to R

Posts: 837 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: UK
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, June 28th (Sunday)

My P-A WH has finally "gotten it" about blame shifting. I am pretty shocked that he is actually owning this behavior, and MC has a lot to do with that. Our MC has worked hard with him to get him to do "active listening" so that he can repeat back what I'm saying about how I feel. It helps a lot.

The other day we were on a walk about the neighborhood talking about some interactions we had had recently where I was objecting to something that he has been doing that really bothers me. And he got all defense and started in on defending, rationalizing, explaining, and then, of course, finding a way to make me the cause of it all (if you would just do XX, then I wouldn't do YY, and you wouldn't feel that way). And I said, wait a minute. We were talking about how I feel about this thing YY that you do. Now you've changed the subject and in the process of you defending your habit of doing YY, you've blamed me for it. You're blame shifting. Let's stay on the topic of how I feel when you do your behavior YY. Do you remember what I even said about how I feel?

And low and behold, he couldn't remember. He was so busy building his defense, rationalizing what he does so that he's not at fault, that he never even heard me.

So I repeated, I feel insecure and angry when you do YY. I have asked you not to do YY before and yet even though you agreed that you would stop doing YY you are still doing it. This feels like you are disrespecting me and are lying about your true intentions. If you would truly stop doing YY I could feel more secure in our relationship and less anxious that you are letting your boundaries slip and are making yourself susceptible to the flirtatious advances of this W. Then I could see that you are taking responsibility for your role in repairing our M, instead of shrugging it off and making it my fault that I'm feeling insecure.

Zolotas, your IL family sounds absolutely pathological. You have every right to stay as far away from them as you can. Your WH may never have the strength to disown them, and your request that he stand up to them may feel like that is what you are asking him to do. Because he can't do that, he just tries to find middle ground and that isn't even acceptible to you.

It's hard to feel compassion towards the P-A WS sometimes because they make you so angry, but damn. He didn't choose his family. He has no control over them. Standing up to them won't make them change. Asking him to disown them when he's spent his whole life trying to get them to love him may not be reasonable. I would recommend trying to find a MC who can help you navigate the issues around holidays and other times when you can't avoid family so that you can have peace and not be slammed by their rudeness.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Zolotas
Member
Member # 15271
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, June 28th (Sunday)

Thanks for the responses..and a place to vent.

Heartbroken KK, you are spot on with the defensive attitudes. I could have written the same examples out as you have...everything used to be my fault, no matter what it was. Those days are pretty much gone for me...just a bit here and there, a gentle reminder and he once again gets on with getting it. It's truly a learning process for both of us.

I realize that for him to stand up to them won't make them change. I also realize how much it must bother him when I complain about their behavior, thus, he makes excuses for them. I guess I wish he would just validate me and agree and tell me that he realizes how they are and that he can't change them, but that he will help me get through a 3 day visit with them. I need to know that he has my back in this horrible situation that I have endured for many many yrs of them beating me up emotionally and hurting my feelings.

Last night we actually had a conversation about their behavior, and more specifically, his sister. For once it was not a blow out fight. I can honestly say that this is really the only thing we have ever fought about past and present..I so hate to bring this with us into our future. We've worked so hard to get to the bottom of why he did what he did..he gets that completely and owns it all. He's worked endlessly to fix his wrongs...except this ugly issue of his family.

Our conversation last night and he actually initiated it, which is a first, was about his sister and her nastiness. He speculates that it's because she is 40+, extremely overweight, no boyfriends, no husband, no career..she's unhappy with her own life and bitter. Ok, I get that..now he does too and he got it on his own....one huge step in the right direction is that he actually see his sister as nasty and bitter towards others and we didn't have a fight about.

Suggestion of MC is good - I truly want to go..he does not as his career has him traveling a lot, his time at home he believes is better spent with me. We went to a family therapist right after d-day when I was close to the edge, almost suicidal. This therapist after a few visits pretty much told me to "get over it" and "it was only an affair"...we both agreed at that point to never return..it left a terrible taste for both of us...Geesh, he even knew that those answers were wrong.

I'm going to explore MC again.. we've made so much progress, this is our last real hurdle..it's major.

I'm thankful I only have to deal with this family twice a yr. Maybe with MC he'll be able to see and understand that his family is how they are and by disagreeing with them and supporting his wife, doesn't make him the bad son.

I see that I have a long road yet..

I'm going to stick around, lurk here at this forum. I've gained a lot and calmed internally knowing that I'm not on this journey alone. I never really knew what P/A meant or that my husb was P/A.

Thanks for all the responses..
I appreciate all of you.

Peace
Z


Posts: 340 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: On my chair
dana88
Member
Member # 18634
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)

I have just started reading through this thread, and it's heartbreaking and eye-opening.

Zolotas, your ILs sound a lot like mine, including the drunk 40 yr old spinster SIL!

So, my big question is: how to get the p/a into therapy? Mine believes that there is nothing wrong with him.


I thought I knew what love was, what did I know? Those days are gone forever - I should just let them go but-

Don Henley, Boys of Summer


Posts: 346 | Registered: Mar 2008
texann
Member
Member # 21129
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)

WOW!!!! Where do I begin. This thread describes my FWH on sooo many levels it is scary. Did not know I was in such a toxic relationship until now. Reading all of these posts has helped me become very aware of what our underlying problem is. And to think it all started with his mother (who i NEVER liked)

Get your angries out.com described his relationship with her to a T. He has been angry at her since his emotionally devoid childhood.

Thanks everyone out there who posted on this thread, you all just may have saved my sanity and my M!!!


My Jack Russell is smarter than my FWH...and better trained!

Posts: 125 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Florida
Zolotas
Member
Member # 15271
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, July 1st (Wednesday)

So, my big question is: how to get the p/a into therapy? Mine believes that there is nothing wrong with him.

If anyone figures this one out, let me know..LOL

I thought is was me that was insane or impaired...well, I am impaired from dealing with my p/a husb and his toxic, emotionally bankrupt family.

Dana, you have a clone of my SIL? LOL..want another?

Peace,
Zo


Posts: 340 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: On my chair
healingwife
Member
Member # 23912
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, July 3rd (Friday)

Forgive me if this has been covered already -- I have read through only the last few pages of this thread.

Wow. So I'm reading through the posts here, and I start thinking that I have many of these characteristics. Not all, and most definitely not from a family with any control or alcoholic issues.

I also see these traits in my FWH. Again, only a few -- but most certainly some of the same ones as me.

This has actually been a major breakthrough for me as we heal and get through MC. I love my FWH and want only to continue to move forward in this amazing marriage we have built.

Has anyone else realized that it's not necessarily the WS with the PA issues, but us, too?


BS - me
FWH - him
married 20 years
Lovingly in R
EA/PA from April-August 2008
Discovered EA - 8/28/08
Discovered PA - 4/17/09 (admitted on his own)

Posts: 482 | Registered: May 2009
inconnu
Member
Member # 24518
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, July 3rd (Friday)

Has anyone else realized that it's not necessarily the WS with the PA issues, but us, too?

yes, I've known that I had PA tendencies, due to my FOO issues.

the difference between me and WS though, is that I have acknowledged my PA shit, and worked on me to learn better ways of dealing with stuff.


Say what you wanna say and let the words fall out...honestly
I wanna see you be brave

Pretty pretty please, don't you ever ever feel
Like you're less than, less than perfect


Posts: 12124 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: TX
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, July 3rd (Friday)

P-A behaviors can be exhibited by anyone, BS or WS.

My WS thinks I am sometimes P-A with him, and he might be right.

Consider the two words however, Passive or passivity, and aggressive, or aggression.

Passive-Aggressive behavior is different from simple passivity, where you are in a mode where you don't resist, don't lead, just let stuff happen, don't complain, etc. Being passive, not taking action when you don't have to, isn't necessarily the same as being P-A where you are hiding your true intent, your dissatisfaction, your lack of agreement, etc. You appear passive initially, but later it comes out that you were non-reactive as way of coping with something that was actually making you angry in some way but you couldn't deal with it right then, straight on. That's were the aggression comes in. P-A involves an underlying hostility, anger, stubbornness, where there is a big element of non-cooperation, non-agreement, etc.

Saying "whatever you want for dinner is fine with me" when you really don't care and really will be happy with whatever is put in front of you, and you'll just be grateful you didn't have to decide, and you'll say thanks and give a peck on the cheek when your served is passivity.

Saying "whatever you want for dinner is fine with me" when what you're really thinking is that your input won't be considered, whatever you say will only get shot down, that you really want a home cooked meal instead of going out, that you are afraid you can't afford the restaurant your partner is choosing, or you hate the whimpy thin crust pizzas she likes so much, and when your partner makes the decision you harbor resentment about the choice, eat in stony silence, drop your fork in a clatter, etc., then that is being Passive-Aggressive. You had hostility and you hid it by being passive, to avoid confrontation at that moment, but let it come out later in subtle ways that are indirect, and also, that make your partner angry with you, because you said whatever you want is fine but you didn't really mean it. And now it's not fine and your partner feels yanked around and frustrated that you're not happy when you indicated you would be. So, your partner expresses that anger when your fork hits the plate, feeling like she can't make you happy, that you're impossible to deal with, etc.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
sikkend
Member
Member # 23698
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, July 6th (Monday)

NeedingGodsHelp:

Wow. This sounds familiar...

Sucking the life out of him

My cheating spouse says he doesn't know who he is any more since being with me, and of course blames me for being controlling as well.

I have read heartbrokenkk's posts... that really hits home:

By putting himself in the submissive role, he puts me in the dominant role. He puts me in a position where I have to manage him, I "control" him. Then he can lash out at me for being controlling, he can be angry at me for it. So he substitutes anger for a variety of underlying emotional states such as shame and low self image. The anger can be directed at ME, instead of shame being an emotion directed internally.

I find this fascinating. This could be the root of our problems... but how to get him to consider it? He has a hate on for the counsellors (all 3 -- his IC, my IC, and our MC, in a group session) who all agreed they couldn't help us any more unless he opened up, let down his defenses and looked within. He insists there is nothing more to look for, he is what he is. :(


Posts: 113 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: Manitoba
LOL_NOT
New Member
Member # 23922
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, July 7th (Tuesday)

This is a response from my very intelligent P-A partner. I thought some of you would find it interesting. I, on the other hand, have been hearing a version of this same story for years. Sometimes it is delivered with tears and sometimes delivered with anger. However I can never get a answer about "Why" and of course no behavior ever changes...so it's hard to see that my partner will ever change. Here is what was written:
I am going through a lot of emotions here. Mostly sadness. It is amazing how many times I can start to deflect when I sit in silence. Drives me nuts, but I keep bringing myself back. I am also finding solace in doing things in the yard and the house. I still fight the procrastination, but that is getting better. I am making a list of things that I see if I cannot do it right then. I find that I get sidetracked very, very easily (physically and emotionally), so to stay on track, the list helps, keeps me focused.

The emotional stuff is something else. I go through such a range in a very short time. I realize that I do not want to admit that I am angry. Even now, writing that down, I want to put in no, it's not anger, I am sad or depressed, whatever. Just not angry. Guess because I know that anger is a cover for other emotions, but in order to get to those I need to acknowledge that I am angry. Thus, the passive-aggressive behavior. Because I have not been willing to admit the anger to myself, it comes out in other ways. I have worked so hard not to be angry and it comes to this. Something I need to go deeper into--is the anger still seated in my childhood or is it stuff that has come up since? Probably both. I know that I felt helpless as a child, no control except my thoughts which is what saved me. As an adult, I know that being at the county has brought up a lot of those same feelings of helplessness, because someone else had the power of where I was going in that arena. Scary, as I know, truly know, that I am the only one who is in control of how I deal with things. You do not have any hold over WHAT I feel, no matter what is said. I have to take my power back and that is where the deflection comes from. Do I want to be responsible for myself? YOU BET!! Am I? YES, but I believe my actions and my words have shown otherwise. When I think about it, this is where the "victim" comes in, because I shut down, tune out and get small. All stuff that worked for quite awhile, but no longer does. I am not a victim, but my actions say that I am.

I worked really, really hard to be invisible, stay small and out of the way. That continued well into adulthood and when I wanted that to stop, with you, I want to be seen in this relationship, I did not know how to switch it up and it comes out as being defensive. Instead of speaking my truth, I defend myself. Then, when that creates dischord, I want to disappear again, Actually, I do disappear and this creates a vicious cycle for me. Show myself, get defensive if I am questioned or feel that I am being questioned, disappear and look like a victim. Ugly, but true.

Big, big project for me--breaking this cycle. Not sure how yet, but I will find a way. I want to be seen and there are times when I am, those are the times when everything is firing on all cylinders and I am totally present. I feel on top of the world in those times. To stay there for the bulk of time, that is when I said I need to be centered and grounded, knowing that whatever is said, I am still okay and that I can deal with it as an adult, and not get defensive or feel helpless.

Articulate yes...but no change in over 15 years. I don't believe, at this point, that a passive-aggressive person can change this deep seeded personality disorder. Just thought some of you might find the insight of interest.
Any thoughts?


Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2009
sickaboutit
New Member
Member # 24615
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, July 10th (Friday)

wow! Lightbulb moment for me... thank you 'on the rocks' This has been my whole 21 year marriage. My husband blames everything on me! he can't be without a woman, he is leaving me for someone 20 years younger. I guess I was getting too hard to control, or wasn't buying into the PA behavior anymore. I had started to withdraw just to stay out of the long and winding and mindbending conversations/fights we had. Too emotionally draining. and then he says he is having an affair because I was withdrawn, I made him unhappy, I ruined his relationships with his children, I held back his career choices, I etc etc.. I do not believe that I am responsible for everything. but, boy sometimes after these twisted conversations with him my confidence falters and I really wonder if I am at fault. It is a horrible way to live. He is now asking me to let him live in the house with me, while he has the affair so that we don't have to tell our son who is away playing football in another province. My cheating husband tells me if I really loved my son I would not tell my son that we are splitting up and that my husband is having an affair! He says I should do this out of love for my son and to 'protect' my son! really! and he thinks that I should just ignore that fact that he is seeing another woman. What????


mojeet

Posts: 2 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Winnipeg
sofresh
Member
Member # 22912
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, July 10th (Friday)

Thanks LOL_NOT.

Your FWH describes my STBXH's outward behaviors to a tee.

I wish I could say that was his only problem, bU I still believe he is a sociopath.

Zolotas: The family dinamic you describe is much like my STBX's.
I have alwyas sought the good in people. Ididn't care that his family was trashy and awful. I Believed his victim play. That's what Sociopaths use to get to you.
How his mom and stepdad were awful, unsupportive, demeaning, degrading. How he was sodomized, how his Bio-dad was a dead-beat, alcholoc abusive, how his first wife and 4 successive GF's cheated on HIM.

Geez the man was married once before me and tried to hold them all...was engaged at least 2.ce more.


ME BW 30 & DS 14 mos.
STBXWH 38 sociopath, SA living with OW 25
D day #1
4 F/R's and corresponding D days
For unhealthy relationships, Dr Seuss would probably say to us…
“Be happy its over, don't cry because it happened”

Posts: 630 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: NY
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, July 20th (Monday)

P-A big and small

So WH is owning his blameshifting behavior for little things, our spats about daily living, my triggers and insecurity with some of his actions, etc. For me, this is now "small stuff" and I almost don't even care any more.

We have been having some "big stuff" talks. About my ticking clock, desire to have a child, etc. WH is fundamentally opposed to change. The core of his being wants everything to be stable, predictable, as it is. Changing course is not what he wants, it doesn't matter how bad things suck at least he knows what his life is now and how to deal with it.

WH's approach to this is to dig in his heels and refuse to engage in a "what if" talk. What if we had a child? How would we work it out? Nope. Can't go there. He's "not ready". Sees all the obstacles.

I am much more comfortable with change. I can visualize a different future, can set my mind to overcoming barriers. I can change my life.

He won't have anything to do with it.

To me, this is the ultimate P-A shit and it may be the thing that kills our marriage. To refuse to engage in discussion something I very much want, to refuse to even look at possibilities, puts me in a position of being a bulldozer and running over the top of him, while he is the victim of my destruction of his life.

Instead of partnering with me in an attempt to solve the problem I have (aging ovaries), instead of looking at each challenge with me and trying to find away to meet it head on, he throws every possible reason why I can't solve the problem on top of all the others. Heaps and heaps of barriers, problems, reasons to fail.

We work too many hours. We can't afford it. He can't handle additional stress. Our marriage is in such disarray he sees no reason to bring a child into it. etc. etc. Not now. (which I know means not ever, because all he has to do is create a fight with me once a month to keep our marriage in disarray, and to keep piling work on so he's overwork and overstressed, and voila! barriers will never be removed).

Obstruction of life goals is Passive-Aggressive at its worst.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
inconnu
Member
Member # 24518
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, July 21st (Tuesday)

My WH, who has well established P-A behaviors, has been "typed" by someone very experienced with the Enneagram, as a type Nine, the "Peacemaker" or the "Mediator".

My WS got typed as a Nine too. He even admitted that it was accurate, that he thought he was a Nine from the description. Yet he's not willing to admit he's P/A.


Say what you wanna say and let the words fall out...honestly
I wanna see you be brave

Pretty pretty please, don't you ever ever feel
Like you're less than, less than perfect


Posts: 12124 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: TX
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, July 24th (Friday)

Double MC session: 110 minutes.

My post today is a reflection on the benefits of having an extra long amount of time to work through an issue with my P-A WH.

He has so many defenses. Every justification. Every rationalization. Every nuance in how things are my fault and he's not responsible. All the blameshifting. We get started on a topic in MC and before we know it we've spent 45 minutes going round and round with working through each of his defenses and then finally, in the last 10 minutes, we start to get somewhere, peel off a few layers to reveal what is REALLY GOING ON INSIDE HIM, WHY he has these defenses. What feelings and fears are motivating him to dig in his heels, etc.

And then we have to end our session because our sessions are only supposed to be 50 minutes long.

Finally I realized what was happening, and asked MC about double sessions.

They have been SO successful it blows me away. We have time to work through his defenses and then actually TALK about the underlying concerns. We can resolve things during session instead of having to drive 2 miles down the road and pull over to talk for another 30 minutes, without the benefit of MC in the room.

So we now see MC 3 times a month. 2 times for regular session, 1 time for double session, and 1 week off.

I'm getting excited about his progress and feeling like our MC is a miracle worker.

For those of you out there trying to work through the P-A challenges in MC, please consider this, especially if you have a big issue to deal with. For us, it's been about bringing a child into our lives. HUGE issue. And he's talking about it, FINALLY.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, July 28th (Tuesday)

Wow, fabulous resource I found that describes the "Passive-Aggressive Pattern"

http://www.earley.org/Patterns/passive_aggressive.htm

Excerpts from this page:

Interpersonal Behavior

Tries to please and fails

Aggression comes out in indirect ways

Sometimes agrees to do things for others and then doesn’t follow through

Often feels pressure to perform, and has expectation and fear of failure, procrastination

Also passive-aggressively defeats his own inner critic, so can’t discipline self

Sometimes acts out annoying behavior while not consciously knowing its impact on others.

A passive-aggressive person often makes others very frustrated while feeling bad about himself for doing this. He will often not give his partner what she wants.

hope this helps others. Please click on the link, there is a lot more there.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
inconnu
Member
Member # 24518
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, August 6th (Thursday)

What I need to do is figure out how to respond to WS when I realize he's being p/a. it's such an ingrained pattern in our marriage that we start dancing the dance without even realizing it. I need to stop that. I need to come up with some phrases or answers that put the responsibility back on WS instead of me turning into crazy person.


Say what you wanna say and let the words fall out...honestly
I wanna see you be brave

Pretty pretty please, don't you ever ever feel
Like you're less than, less than perfect


Posts: 12124 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: TX
dreamlife
Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, August 7th (Friday)

Has anyone's WS been diagnosed as having ODD?
(Oppositional Defiant Disorder)

If I say "black"... he says "white"...my replying "Yes" is met by his "No", etc.
Is very dis-loyal. (His friends come first).
Argumentative (as is his entire family).
Its like living with a lazy teenager who needs constant mothering & "reminding".
Its miserable. Especially the constant raging and ARGUMENTS.


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 3:08 PM, August 8th (Saturday)

mothering and reminding.... classic co-dependent behaviors that feed into his passive-aggressive ones.

He fails to live up to his agreements and responsibilities.

You cover for him.

It's a parent-child dynamic instead of a partnership of equals.

he's disloyal because he resents you parenting him.

But he sets you up to be his manager, his mommy. Because he can't live up to his responsibilities on his own.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
tryin2smile
Member
Member # 25131
Content  Posted: 8:19 PM, August 13th (Thursday)

OMG, OMG, OMG I wish I'd seen this thread sooner! This describes our relationship to a T! I have progressively gotten bitchier over our 16 year marriage and now I know why! It was always in response to his broken promises and needing to keep him in line. Well, he walked out on me, presumably for another woman - still denies, but all the evidence points to it. When he left he promised to help me with everything around the house... big surprise, didn't happen. He started blaming me for everything that went wrong in his life. He completely tanked at work, superiors hate him because he failed follow through on promises. You can break promises to the wife but can't get away with it at work. Well anyway, he's blamed me for everything that went wrong in the relationship. According to him, his only misstep was not sticking up for himself sooner.
I think it's too late to repair the marriage (gone 2.5 mos, major anger towards me, basically no contact except for necessary texting) but I am so happy that I now know why I felt like I was turning into such a bitch...


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
shushpuppy
New Member
Member # 25232
Shutup  Posted: 1:59 AM, August 20th (Thursday)

I am so glad i found this site too. Been married for 25 years to a PA man and its been one thing after another with him.

Married 7 years and he had a relationship with his best friends wife! He couldnt understand why everyone was so upset about it! Virtually blamed me for the entire thing because according to him i was too good at being a "mum" to our two beautiful kids and not good enough as a "wife"!

He never talks! Has a face constantly set in stone and walks about on a daily basis looking like his world just ended. He believes i am a mind reader and should know what his problems are without even asking. He controls everyone with his facial gestures and body language.


Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: UK
chicstyler
Member
Member # 25111
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, August 24th (Monday)

My IC/MC mentioned that my WH could possibly be PA. I am definitely the Mommy figure .I try so hard to get him to think on his own but he flatly refuses. The only ways he has ever done anything on his own were the 3 OW's in his life. The last OW was anEA that lasted 21 yrs. with X-W until he got caught.Life is just a laugh a minute!


BS(me)52
WH 60 ,EA with lying, cheating X-W
married 30yrs, betrayal #1 1983, #2 1986 & #3 1988(21 yrs)X-W
2 daughters(26 & 24)

Posts: 154 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: PA living with spouse
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 4:54 PM, August 25th (Tuesday)

Cute, so latest WH angle is to tell me what I can and can't tell him when I'm upset.

I tell him "I feel like you don't care about my needs. It seems to me like you think my needs are unreasonable and you..."

and he cuts me off "Don't tell me what I'm thinking!!!"

So apparently sharing the thoughts in my head, my own ideas, feelings, and mind movies, if they involve speculating about him, I should just keep it to myself. Because I can't tell him what he's thinking.

ARRGGGH

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
hopefulnz
Member
Member # 16942
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, August 25th (Tuesday)

Hi Heartbroken

I understand exactly what you are talking about.

In my case I wouldn't have to guess what my H was feeling if he would tell me - but he won't.

I guess then I might know too much about him...


Me - BS (43)
Him - FWH (52)
Married 17 years - together 20 years
D Day #1 - March 07
D Day #2 - April 07
A year of false R
Final D Day - March 08
2 Children 15,13
Reconciling

Posts: 428 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: New Zealand
Innocence Lost
Member
Member # 20787
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, August 25th (Tuesday)

[This message edited by Innocence Lost at 8:10 PM, August 29th (Saturday)]


From victim to victor is a choice.

Posts: 290 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Canada
shushpuppy
New Member
Member # 25232
Default  Posted: 3:12 AM, August 28th (Friday)

I constantly get told that my feelings are wrong!

If i suggest i am feeling hurt by something he has done or said its wrong!

Constantly told that i dont know what he is thinking and that i over-analyse him too much.

Hello! well open your mouth and tell me how you do feel then and maybe we could live hapilly ever after!


Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: UK
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, August 30th (Sunday)

This is going to sound weird probably but does anyone have a P/A who creates or manipulates a drama situation or a crisis to seek attention or approval?

Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
so_sick78
New Member
Member # 25426
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, September 4th (Friday)

Omg!! That's sounds exactly like my relationship. I thought I was crazy, he said I was crazy. I wish i had heard about this website before, it may have save may relationship. But it's comforting to know that there are others that feel like this too and not crazy.

Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Canada
Abouttherenow
New Member
Member # 25429
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, September 4th (Friday)

Yaye, thank you for being here. My SO is an alchoholic and is passive aggressive. He is controlling, and yet a wonderful caregiver. He was married to someone with borderline personality disorder which left him emotionally damaged. He will not discuss any disagreements, he just leaves. When I read "Living with the Passive-Aggresive Man", I was shocked. Fits like a glove. Another good book is "Verbally Abusive Relationship". I'm so glad for ya'll.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Sep 2009
Eight13
Member
Member # 20958
Default  Posted: 9:00 PM, September 4th (Friday)

Bump.

Thank you for this thread! Now I just need to figure out how I can stop seeking the p-a man. Because I'm very good at finding them.


Me: BW
Him: WH
M 9 years
Dday September 2008
Status: D 12/09/09. Fifteen months and three days since Dday. Not a moment too soon.

May 2011: Happier than I've been. To all hurting BS's, time often truly does heal. I didn't always be


Posts: 442 | Registered: Sep 2008
shushpuppy
New Member
Member # 25232
Default  Posted: 2:45 AM, September 7th (Monday)

Has anyone been accused by their PA spouse of being an emotional bully!

I did on Saturday! Confronting him about his behaviour is emotional bullying apparently and the silent treatment is all about the fear i instill in him!

Standing up for me and having strong boundaries is pure and simple bullying!

When he is acting out i should ignore it and think nothing. When he does something in ya face selfish i should smile sweetly and accept my fate. Saying "no" to all this bullcrap is bullying and makes him feel intimidated!

OMG i could pull my hair out one by one this man is so frustrating to live with.


Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: UK
Abouttherenow
New Member
Member # 25429
Revenge  Posted: 1:13 AM, September 11th (Friday)

shush puppy A big YES, i FEEL YOU. What do you do? Any confrontation that comes up, no matter how it is framed, no matter how important it is- you are the MEANIE. It will be turned on you and You ( at least I end up apologizing, all the while being so ticked off, but I do it anyway) and you are the bad guy always. Maybe your person is better. It just seems imposssible ti have any discussion of any kind- nothing is ever resolved, there is never a kiss and make-up. It is a kiss somebody's *^$ and then drop it. Does your go to the bedroom and go to bed with door shut? or just leave?

[This message edited by Abouttherenow at 1:15 AM, September 11th (Friday)]


Posts: 7 | Registered: Sep 2009
shushpuppy
New Member
Member # 25232
Default  Posted: 1:57 AM, September 11th (Friday)

Any problem brought up and he just sits there blanking me. He refuses to defend himself, explain his actions and just blatantly stares at the wall, the tv or anything to make it appear like he is not listening. I have tried being nice about problems, using lots of "I feel" statements, I have shouted at him, I have cried infront of him. You name it i have tried it and the same response is a deafening silence. Its then straight into a few days of the silent treatment from him!

Latest argument was about him refusing to call at the grocery store for me because as he said "He didnt want anything so he wasnt calling in there just for me"!!! despite the fact i cook every single meal he eats and wash every single item of clothing he wears!! He couldnt accept that it was selfish behaviour on his part and said i was just "Miss Goody Two Shoes" then went on to ignore me for the whole evening for telling him i felt upset by his behaviour.

His favourite get out clause is "I dont know i am doing the things you accuse me of"!!!! Pffffffffft!!!!!!!

He used to go to bed and lock the bedroom door but i took the locks off hehehehe. Now he sits there and zones out with the television on. Sometimes he is so rude he even turns the volume up to dround out the sound of my voice which infuriates me no end. This is when i leave the room and write in my journal to get my angries out.

Now it seems that "journalling" is even hacking him off as he told me that "normal" people dont journal, only people with mental health problems do it! Walking away instead of talking to a man that doesnt want to hear a word i have to say and journalling is apparently causing our marriage problems whereas talking to him is bullying so what the hell am i supposed to do?

Anyone have any ideas on how to communicate with these people because after 25 years with him it seems i still dont get it!


Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: UK
futureseemsbleak
Member
Member # 16642
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, September 11th (Friday)

I too lived with a PA H for 25 years...it was all so hurtful for years when I was so innocent. Now, I am beginning to understand the whys in so many ways.

WS never planned any vacations for us or the family...I was always the manager...did every kind of paperwork that needed to be done. I oftened wondered why he couldn't plan a "surprise getaway" that would make me feel wanted...never happened.

And, as the years flew by his behavior got worse and now I totally recognize all the hidden angry and hostility inside him. The hurtful comments he projected to his family only to make him feel better and in control of himself.

When he decided to take on a project, I would learn to bite my tongue because I knew he would lash out at me for wanting some other color than him etc. Could never take any constructive criticism even at work...his angry and protectant disagreements became more evident after 15 years and he lost his job.

Blames me for everything and now when he rewrite marital history, it sounds so immature and stupid! Lies too are so evident now.

Sadly, he refuses to be accountable for anything that went wrong with our M. He had so many good traits and also very good at sales, a master manipulator. All along and unknowingly ruining his self image for those closest to him.

Great post!! PA seems to include so many BPDs and so difficult for them to see. Our tug of war has never become anything but limbo. Of course, it will be my choice and my decision to remedy the situation or move forward with a D...most likely when WS has just run away from himself and won't face anything...


Posts: 227 | Registered: Oct 2007
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 11:56 PM, September 12th (Saturday)

Wondering if anyone out there has dealt with their P/A partner or self going through IC or MC to try to work on the issues that started them on the path to being passive-aggressive.

Our MC says she has worked with other PA people and knows what is going on, but I don't know how much of that is just her trying to calm my nerves.

She told us that the PA thoughts and behaviors that my WH is dealing with go back 40 years, not just the 11 that we've been together, and that the As he had were way more related to the first 30 years of his life than the last 10.

I would love to hear from anyone - anyone - who has felt that counseling has helped, even in small ways, to create new ways of thinking/behaving for themselves or their PA partner.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, September 13th (Sunday)

WS never planned any vacations for us or the family...I was always the manager...did every kind of paperwork that needed to be done. I oftened wondered why he couldn't plan a "surprise getaway" that would make me feel wanted...never happened.

And, as the years flew by his behavior got worse and now I totally recognize all the hidden angry and hostility inside him. The hurtful comments he projected to his family only to make him feel better and in control of himself.

When he decided to take on a project, I would learn to bite my tongue because I knew he would lash out at me for wanting some other color than him etc. Could never take any constructive criticism even at work...his angry and protectant disagreements became more evident after 15 years and he lost his job.

Blames me for everything and now when he rewrite marital history, it sounds so immature and stupid! Lies too are so evident now.

FSB....could have written ALL of that myself.

My H seemed to be better for awhile but I feel it happening all over again. He stayed at the job that fostered the A, he has stayed at this place of work even after I have begged him to leave. I have had to swallow my pride as he emotionally could not move on from this place. I have accepted that he works there thru the last 4 years even when I continue to plead with him to leave, go find anything else.

Now his work place is imploding once again, he is being cut back hours (this time not his fault but I once again kept telling him he was so much better, could get a job anywhere, this place was falling apart) yet he will not leave. Will not look for another job, just tells me how he can't or how no one will hire him and just won't do it. Its almost like he purposely implodes his life somehow someway and then looks to me to pick up the pieces.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)

OMG, this is the first definition of codependence I've seen that seems to really fit me.... (bolding is my own).

Codependence definition from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependence :

Symptoms of codependence may include controlling behavior, distrust, perfectionism, avoidance of feelings, problems with intimacy, excessive caretaking, hypervigilance, or physical illness related to stress.[4] Codependence is often accompanied by clinical depression, as the codependent person succumbs to feelings of frustration or sadness over their inability to improve their situation.

* tendency to place the needs and wants of others first and to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own
* continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others
* anxiety and boundary distortions relating to intimacy and separation
* difficulty expressing feelings
* excessive worry how others may respond to one's feelings
* undue fear of being hurt and/or rejected by others
* self-esteem dependent on approval by others
* tendency to ignore own values and attempt to adhere to the values of others


anyone else here see themselves in this???

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
tryin2smile
Member
Member # 25131
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)

wow. totally, totally see myself in that description.


“The soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears.”-John Vance Cheney

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine


Posts: 189 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: East Coast
shushpuppy
New Member
Member # 25232
Default  Posted: 3:48 AM, September 17th (Thursday)

I used to be codependant and can see how i fed into his passive agressive personlity.

The problem is i have now stopped being that way and placing more responsibility on him for his actions and choices in life.

This is having a huge impact because he cannot cope. He loved it when i would take all the weight and stress off of him but lately i refuse to do it.

I am taking care of me more these days and yeah he says i am "selfish".

Nurturing and taking care of him used to constantly bring out his rebellious side and boy would he go to town on being defiant. He would get a huge kick out of not doing things that were expected of him but now the blank look on my face and no reaction is causing him to feel neglected.

He is playing the "woe is me card"


Posts: 19 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: UK
Hope4TheFuture
Member
Member # 25382
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, September 17th (Thursday)

This thread has given me answers to questions I've had for quite some time.

Thank you all for that.

Hope4


Posts: 606 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: in the void
Crushed1
Member
Member # 6449
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, September 25th (Friday)

I found this article on P/A personalities to be the most helpful I've ever come across for those dealing with a P/A person in our lives. My H is P/A and this has helped us a lot!!! Best of luck to everyone!
**************************

What is passive aggressiveness?

I act in a passive aggressive way when I:

* hide my hostility by seeming to be nice to someone I dislike, and am unable to be honest with the person.
* say I agree with something but don't follow through because I really don't agree with it.
* act opposite to what others are expecting.
* quietly manipulate to get my own way after voicing a completely different opinion, just to keep the peace.
* seek revenge by agreeing and looking "good", but never following through on my promises.
* tell people what they want to hear, even if I don't believe in what I am saying.
* try to please people by agreeing to their plan of action, yet actually doing the opposite.
* act one way, which is true to my inner feelings, yet say another.
* am out of touch with my inner feelings; the only way to know how I feel about something is to observe my behavior, don't trust my words.
* hate something or someone but am afraid of letting my true feelings show.
* feel pressured to act or believe in a certain way when I really don't want to.
* avoid conflict at all cost by giving in to others, then procrastinate and never do what I agreed to do.
* am angry but afraid to show my anger, so I quietly take my revenge by doing the opposite.

What are the typical reactions to my passive aggressiveness?

When people recognize my passive aggressiveness they:
* are surprised.
* get disappointed.
* get angry.
* are confused by my behavior.
* confront me on my actions.
* realize that I lied to them.
* get frustrated by the inconsistency in my behavior.
* begin to do battle with me, resulting in a conflict greater than the one I originally tried to avoid.
* get upset and fly into a rage and this damages the relationship.
* no longer trust me.
* resent me for being dishonest.
* act in a similar way with me and our communication winds up at a standstill where neither of us "wins.''
* feel challenged by me and in their competitive reaction become more adamant in seeking to achieve what I had originally verbally agreed to with them.

What irrational thinking keeps me being passive aggressive when I disagree with others?
* I must avoid an argument, fight or conflict at all costs.
* I never "win" in confrontation.
* There is no use in opposing them, they are much more powerful than I am.
* I must please people by telling them what they want to hear.
* I never get anywhere by showing my anger openly.
* It's bad to get angry.
* No one wants to know how I feel.
* No one will understand how I feel.
* My problems are unique; I need to hide them since no one would understand.
* I am a loser and failure anyway; why try to defend my position?
* I will never "win" in this situation; why try?
* I enjoy seeing people get blown away by my agreeing with them and then my doing the opposite of what I agreed to do.
* I'd rather back down right away to minimize the damages a fight could bring rather than tell people how I really feel about things.
* It's so hard to be honest with people about how I feel when what I feel is counter to what they want me to feel.
* It's important for people to like and accept me and I say anything just so long as they like me.
* It's not what I do or how I act that is important to people, it is what I say that influences them.
* People will never know I'm angry and disagree with them.
* I hide my feelings well from others.
* Feelings don't count. It is better to deny my feelings than upset another person I am in disagreement with.
* I'd rather lie than get into an argument with someone.
* If I lie about how I feel, others will never know the truth.

How can I recognize when someone is being passive aggressive with me?

I can tell that people are being passive aggressive with me when they:
* always agree with my point of view, even when I am being narrow minded or blind to other alternatives.
* never disagree or argue with my point of view.
* take every opportunity to "put me down" in a humorous or sarcastic way.
* never confront me with their negative feelings.
* avoid discussions about unpleasant topics.
* are always cheerful and upbeat to my face; yet I hear from others how negative they are about me behind my back.
* "yes" me constantly, never disagreeing with anything I say.
* consistently do the opposite of what I thought they agreed to do.
* withdraw or pull away from me whenever I confront them with my anger or negative feelings about them.
* deny that they have any problems with our relationship.
* talk about others in a negative or disparaging way, yet are nice and friendly to their faces.
* demonstrate behavior inconsistent with their words.
* make me feel foolish for expecting one thing from them when they deliver the opposite.
* make me believe I can count on them to do something for me but they never follow through.
* talk with fantasy and magical thinking about how they are going to change, yet the change never occurs.
* show a consistent pattern of exerting no effort toward improving our relationship.
* talk or act irrationally in dealing with a problem, as if it were very easy to overcome and correct.
* minimize the extent of the problems facing us in our relationship.
* tend to patronize me and try to make me believe that I am just imagining problems between us.
* continue to deny that a problem exists when all the evidence points to the opposite.

How can I confront a passive aggressive person?

If others are being passive aggressive with me I can:
* point out the behavior that indicates passive aggressiveness on their part.
* point out the inconsistency between their words and actions.
* pay attention to their actions rather than their words, then give them feedback as to what their actions tell me about their feelings.
* ask for their true feelings reassuring them that it is OK to share negative feelings.
* ask them what has them so intimidated that they fear sharing their feelings with me.
* reassure them that we can reach a "win-win" solution in our communication if we are willing to compromise.
* defuse the competition in our relationship. It doesn't matter "what" we are discussing as long as we respect how each of us "feels" about what we are discussing.
* remain open to any negative feelings they have and let them know this.
* begin to trust what they "do" rather than what they "say" and let them know that I am doing this.
* make myself more accessible to them.
* help them lessen their fear of rejection from me by reassuring them that I really do care.

If I find myself being passive aggressive, how can I correct this?

To avoid being passive aggressive with others, I can:
* try to be assertive, open and honest with my negative feelings or anger.
* warn people to "read" my behavior rather than my words if they want to know my feelings.
* confront myself with my inconsistent behavior and challenge myself to explain it.
* take the risk to confront my anger assertively and "on the spot" so that I can bring my behavior in line with my feelings.
* work at making my behavior consistent with my feelings.
* change the way I interact with people and make my relationships more honest.
* admit that I have been a liar.
* work at being more honest with people even if it results in a conflict.
* identify the irrational thinking that prevents me from confronting people when I am angry.
* learn how to become assertive with my negative feelings.
* accept that it is OK to have conflict and disagreement.
* learn to compromise and come to a "win-win" solution.

Why is it useful to eliminate my acting passive aggressive?

By eliminating passive aggressiveness when I am angry, I could:
* have deeper, more honest and longer-lasting relationships.
* feel less stress, anxiety and depression in my dealings with others.
* learn to be clear and consistent about my feelings.
* reassure others that they will no longer have to guess how I "really feel."
* stop resorting to lies about my feelings.
* develop self-respect, self-confidence, self-esteem and self-worth.
* have more energy because I would no longer be defending myself from powerful, intimidating people.
* have clarity of focus and purpose, working on the things I want rather than what others want for me.
* have fewer people venting their rage on me.
* experience a sense of harmony in my life.

Steps to eliminating being passive aggressive

Step 1: First, I must begin to recognize this behavior when it occurs. To do this, I will answer the following questions in my journal:

A. What is my usual response when I disagree with someone who intimidates me?
B. How do I feel when I am angry or upset with someone who intimidates me?
C. How often do I agree with these people rather than confront them just to avoid conflict?
D. What benefits do I derive by avoiding confrontation?
E. What are my feelings after I have backed down from someone who intimidates me?
F. From whom have I backed down? How successful was this? How often did I go ahead with what I had planned, ignoring what these people wanted me to do? What usually resulted from my failure to follow through with my part of the plan?
G. What do I do now after I've backed down from a disagreement? Am I still passive aggressive? How can I tell? What are the results? How often does this happen?
H. Under what circumstances do I resort to passive aggressiveness?
I. What is involved in these situations? Why do I resort to passive aggressiveness?
J. What are the negative results of my passive aggressiveness?

Step 2: If I find that I am resorting to passive aggressiveness, then I need help to recognize the negative impact it has in my life. To do this I will record the following exercise in my journal.

My Passive Aggressive Ways

Write a story about five separate incidents during which I acted passive aggressive. In each story, detail:
* When it happened.
* With whom it happened.
* What I was angry about or over what we disagreed.
* Why I was intimidated.
* What I did later to show I was being passive aggressive.
* The reasons I acted the way I did.
* How others reacted to my passive aggressive behaviors.
* How others confronted me on how I was acting.
* What they told me about my behavior and how they felt about it.
The final outcome of the situation.

Step 3: I am now ready to confront my past passive aggressiveness and ways I could change it.

Complete the following exercise:

The Other Side of the Story
Write a sequel to each of the five stories from Step 2. In each sequel include:

* What I did differently when I first recognized that I was angry or had negative feelings.
* How I honestly confronted my feelings as being different from my behavior.
* How I made sure that my actions were consistent with my expressed feelings.
* How I gave others permission to "call me on it" if I deviated from my expressed feelings.
* How others handle my being assertive with my anger and/or negative feelings.
* How we resolved the conflict or disagreement that resulted.
* The impact this confrontation had on our relationship.
* How the stress and anxiety of intimidation and power games was eliminated from our relationship.
* How I felt about learning to handle my anger and/or disagreements in a healthy way.
* The benefits of my being direct and assertive in confronting my anger and/or negative feelings with others.

Step 4: Once I've been able to rewrite my passive aggressive behavioral script, I need to apply it. Whenever I am angry or in disagreement with someone, I will strive to follow these tips:

Tips to Overcoming being Passive Aggressive
Tip 1: Tell the person immediately how I am feeling, even if I am angry or in disagreement.
Tip 2: Allow the other to express feelings openly as well.
Tip 3: Ask the other to allow for a compromise "win-win" solution.
Tip 4: Ventilate feelings, then jointly brainstorm solutions.
Tip 5: Arrive at a solution in which we both "win."
Tip 6: Act on solutions in which we both "win."
Tip 7: Make sure my actions are consistent with the agreement.
Tip 8: Make sure my behavior is consistent with my feelings and what I said in the agreement.
Tip 9: Give the other person permission to point out when my behavior deviates from our agreement.
Tip 10: Monitor my emotions and renegotiate our solution if they aren't consistent with our compromise.
Tip 11: Let the other know if I get upset over the compromise with no masking of my feelings.
Tip 12: Confront intimidation openly and honestly.
Tip 13: Insure that our relationship is based on honesty.
Tip 14: Accept the uniqueness and individuality of others, allowing each of us to be ourselves.

Step 5: If I find I am still resorting to passive aggressiveness then I need to return to Step 1, and begin again.

***************************
About this Author:
James J Messina, PhD, is a licensed psychologist with more than 35 years of experience counseling individuals and families. Messina, who specializes in adult and children psychotherapy, serves as Director of Psychological Services at St. Joseph’s Children’s Hospital in Tampa, Fla. He has a private practice in Tampa and is also a member of the American Psychological Association.


~~"You can't run away from yourself"!!! Me to my H when he descended into adultery insanity.
~~Prov.15:13 "By sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken"
~~"The day breaks-your mind aches"
~STRENGTH~PEACE~HOPE~FAITH

Posts: 9651 | Registered: Feb 2005 | From: Texas
dreamlife
Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, September 25th (Friday)

This is great...thanks for posting!


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
prayformiracle
Member
Member # 22845
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, September 25th (Friday)

thanks for the post.

i see a lot of it in me. except, i felt it safe to take my anger out on my wife and children verbally and emotionally. now i dare not, i respect them too much, they never derseved what i gave them.

i am making it up to them and i appologize for my action for all these many years.


Iwantamiracle, you are my everything, I will love you always and forever. Life without your smile, your love is empty and sad.
I will not stop working on me on us, I will not stop caring, will not stop loving you, ever. Faithfuly and commited.

Posts: 412 | Registered: Feb 2009
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, September 26th (Saturday)

So I wrote on the General forum in regards to my H and his place of work closing. We knew about this last Monday. You can just imagine the P/A stuff going on all over our household right now. I am praying that he proves me wrong and makes the right decisions but I have been dealing with a P/A man for so long that I have PTSD from this whole thing. I am a nervous wreck.

Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
dreamlife
Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, September 26th (Saturday)

rb sending you huge hugs!


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
Jinny
Member
Member # 24236
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, September 29th (Tuesday)

I'm so glad I found this thread. It's like all the pieces of my marriage are falling into place before my very eyes. I'm going to read, read and read some more although at this point in time. I'm not sure that this marriage ever began, let alone what there is to reconcile.

We had a conversation when I asked him what marriage means to him, what are his expectations from it, what does it look like? His reply was that he doesn't know what marriage is. I'm at a loss - we can't have a marriage unless we know what it is.
It's now perfectly clear why we've got through many therapists, the work they gave him to do outside of the sessions was always completed at the last minute. He'd put it off and put it off - he was given a sort of assigment by one therapist, he missed a session because he hadn't done it and then manipulated my "permission". He completed the assignment for the following one, but then as he always does, put it right behind him and locked it away in a box.

Oh I'm just rambling...I'm just glad I found a place of refuge where I can fathom all this crap out.


Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Right Here
hollow-promise
Member
Member # 16905
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, October 8th (Thursday)

My FWH is in PA mode right now. He wants to live up north in the boon docks and I want to stay in the city near my kids and grandson. We are fighting about this, and he sees me as a roadblock to his happiness. I better keep an eye on him, he tends to have affairs when I don't do what he wants. He says that he will get me to change my mind, so far it's not happening.


Me-BS 59
Him-WS 55
MOW-49 borderline personality nightmare
D-Day 3/21/07, my daughter's birthday
Married 9 years-working on R after 5 months of partial truths

Posts: 149 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Midwest
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, December 18th (Friday)

Bumping this thread for newbies.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, January 29th (Friday)

bumping again


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 12:41 AM, March 24th (Wednesday)

bumping for RUKM


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
dreamerinnc
Member
Member # 21670
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, April 30th (Friday)

I just discovered this and cannot believ how this is my WH and our marriage to a T. I never relaized it before I had such an ah-ha moment yesterday. This is why we are still sitting in limbo all this time later! I told OW in the beginning WH would never make a decision, he never has and I am right, now I think I know why,PA.


Married 26 years
Me-BS-49
WH-53
OW-Married-36
2 Boys 20&22
D-Day 9/13/08 to many to mention since then-I enabled
11/3/10-Finally got the paperwork going to move on with my life!
2011-R ????

Posts: 1466 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: North Carolina
WheredoIgonow
Member
Member # 27130
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, May 2nd (Sunday)

We've been married for over 25 years and after his A (DDay 6 months ago) and I've read A LOT of books and the SI forums, my WH would be considered PA.

He says I'm "always" criticizing hime.

He plays the victim and often says "I make mistakes" on just the littlest thing that wasn't even a mistake.

He wants me to make the decisions but HATEs it too - or disagrees with them if I do.

He had (has) a very, very domineering father and when we are around his Dad - we are all secondary.....

I've typically been a very strong person - and now I see why he probably liked it at first.... but over time he's built up so resentment towards me.

We've had fights/discussions and I express how hurt I feel and why am I married to the nicest man in the whole world "to everyone else" and Im the one he is the "meanest" too - or acts like he likes me the least at times?

I put up with this for so long and let so much go (or tried to). But when the As were revealed - by confidence went to hell. I'm just starting to build it back up - and now I see his behavior.


Me; BS (55)
Him: WS (57)
Married 30 years
DD-28, DS-27, DS-18, DS-17
OW#1 - PA - 4 1/2 years
OW#2 - EA/PA - 5 months
He thought she was his soulmate - was going to move out- confessed about OW#2 when asked. OW#1 revealed them.

Posts: 608 | Registered: Jan 2010
texann
Member
Member # 21129
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, May 2nd (Sunday)

Found out thru SI that my FWH is a poster boy for passive-aggressive behavior. If you go to a website called angriesout.com click on boomerang relationships it talks about the passive-aggressive personality. Boy did all of it make sense in my case. FWH fit all the descriptions to a T. Now what do I do?


My Jack Russell is smarter than my FWH...and better trained!

Posts: 125 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Florida
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, May 5th (Wednesday)

Now what do I do?

That is my question as well, since I have recently identified my H as Passive-Agressive.

One thing I am going to do is stop being intimidated by it (which has been my pattern).

texann, "angriesout.com" was a great recommendation. I spent a bunch of time on there myself last night.

It seems clear that this is a tough road to be on....for both people involved in a P-A relationship.

I'm going to talk with my IC about it at my appointment tomorrow.


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
MYBOYSMOM
Member
Member # 26318
Default  Posted: 11:51 PM, May 24th (Monday)

Whoever wrote the article about the Boomerang Relationships must have been studing my marriage. It fit us perfectly. Reading it really opened my eyes to both X and MY OWN behavior.

Now that we're D I try to keep what I read in mind when I have to deal with him.

He, of course, is still in massive denial that he's PA - even after one of his counselors TOLD me that two things X needed to work on were conflict avoidance and passive aggressive behavior...


BW 49(me)
WH - doesn't matter anymore
Married: 23 years; DS18, DS16
D-Day: 9/1/2009, D:12/21/2009

"It's a new dawn, It's a new day, It's a new life, for me, and I'm feeling good..." Michael Buble


Posts: 780 | Registered: Nov 2009
ggrahamrob
Member
Member # 25555
Frustrated  Posted: 2:33 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)

Maybe you can help me to determine if this is passive aggressive behavior. I have always felt that my WH used the two affairs as "punishment." He would never tell me if he was unhappy with me or something I had done. I would even check in at various times during the marriage when I felt he was struggling and ask "how are we doing?" It was always "fine." Then he would have the affairs, or he would vent to his family and friends about how horrible I was, and then punish me again when I didn't know what was wrong! Ahhhhh

Posts: 93 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Independence, Kansas
wantinghappiness
Member
Member # 24006
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)

I never read in the I can relate forum, partly because I spend a lot time on SI anyway and was worried I'd find something like this, that deserves hours of attention. But today, I happened to notice this thread and the timing was right.

The PA issue definitely played into my H's decision to enter into an A and his behavior in the aftermath. I recently have noticed that the closer I come to forgiveness (true, blissful forgiveness), the more the "basic" problems in my marriage are hightlighted. This being a biggie.

I read the first page and the last, and can't wait to read all in between (I do need to work as well!!) Eye-opening, to say the least. Lately, I have been pondering the irony of this aspect of living with a PA spouse: He frequently condesendingly tells me to "communicate" and "just talk to him" (he even says these things slowly, like I am a mentally challenged child), BUT he is the WORST communicator. Never direct. Never makes any effort to "understand" if the other person does not fill in all of the blanks. Never answers a direct question directly. Answers questions with questions or tangents. Walks away, looks away, closes doors, etc. while others are trying to communicate. I could go on and on. This is where we are now. It is part of why R has been so hard and is taking so long, and it is part of why I am so often in such a state of stress.

Anyway, I am glad I found this. I will read read read and try to learn learn learn --- there must be a way to break this pattern and bring out the best in my H and my self.


Me: BS
Him: WS
Together 23 years, married 17
2 wonderful children, 14 & 16
dday #1 01/01/07 EA (&PA?)
dday #2 03/23/07 ONS/PA w/ same OW
relieved to have found support at last -- in R but still unsure.

Posts: 464 | Registered: May 2009
Debs
Member
Member # 21933
Default  Posted: 7:32 PM, June 2nd (Wednesday)

Wow this is striking such a big chord with me.

A typical set of scenarios for us is me wanting to do something new will say

"how about we do such and such" Immediate answer from WS "No"

but if I say instead "I am going to do such and such (exactly the same thing)" Response from WS is "Oh you don't want me to do that with you"

I'm left totally pissed off and confused.

I am set up to make major decision for us because if they don't work.. he has someone to blame. He puts off making major decision around work in his own life because he is so scared of making the wrong one but is jealous of me.

Why am I staying with this.. maybe I am co-dependant now. I never used to be

Oh hell ..the journey starts again.


I lost my heart and found myself!

Posts: 804 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Orange NSW
Debs
Member
Member # 21933
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, June 11th (Friday)

Shameless bump


I lost my heart and found myself!

Posts: 804 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Orange NSW
boarder151
Member
Member # 28179
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, June 11th (Friday)

Wow, that fits my WH and I to a T. He was PA even when we were dating but I was too young/naive to recognize it at the time. Good post! Great info!


ME: 30
WH: 27
Daughter: 1
DDay#1: Easter, 4/4/10
DDay#2: 4/17/10
Married for 6 1/2 years; headed for divorce or reconsiliation...not sure which

Posts: 154 | Registered: Apr 2010
tammyjean100
Member
Member # 28159
Default  Posted: 2:27 PM, June 12th (Saturday)

A dear friend I met here on SI suggested this thread. I have read several pages and will read the rest.

I am unable to stop the chills and goosebumps I am experiencing. This, as so many others have said in the past year, fit this 33 year marriage/relationship, or lack thereof, PERFECTLY.
The feeling like I am crazy. The uncertainty when I am around him, but the certainty and peace I can fleetingly feel when he's not around. The WH had his A for at least 3.5 years. WH also did not stop A, even after I found the texts, and figured out where they were, and caught them at motel. WH used his PA on the OW (whom I incredibly weirdly like in many ways) to supposedly get her to cut it off. No evidence that happened, of course.

All the questions that go unanswered. Silence. Changing the subject to something safe. He recognizes he does that. The telling me, asking me something (the latest was to go to marital boot camp!!! when the A hasn't been dealt with, with me getting no help with healing, even from the IC). Then the anger when I do not agree.

The walking out on me, to see our son, or do something else, leaving me alone.

The anger all these years when he has to spend several hours doing work around the house. Likes the outside work, but he hates inside work.

The jealousy shown when my attention was on our son as a baby.

The insisting on going to spend time with him, an equal amount of time to what I did, or more.

Holy Shit.

As an IFNJ, this thread, this info, is such a revelation I can hardly find the right words. All the confusion I have felt. And now I know why. I will read the rest of the past year's thread, and go to library today before it closes to look for the books mentioned.

This could be liberating. Perhaps I will share with WH some info one last time. But I feel closer somehow to LS and damn soon.

Thanks for this -

TJ


You can't overcome anything without facing it. Betty Ford

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Capital District, New York
Finesse026
Member
Member # 25868
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, June 12th (Saturday)

Do any of you have recomendations on books that deal with passive aggressiveness? My H also fits this to a tee and I want to not only better understand but learn how to deal with him more affectively.

Thanks!


Together: 8.5 years
Married: 5 years
BW: 32
WH: 34
Angel baby: Nov. 09
OC born June '10

filed for D Oct. 15, served Dec 18
D final June 21, 2011


Posts: 1795 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Wonderland
UnbearablySadd
Member
Member # 18150
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, June 13th (Sunday)

At start of this thread, a poster mentioned the "boomerang relationship" I'd never heard of it, but am in my second marriage to a PA man. I thought this link might be helpful to folks:

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQd8M5t4Ao&NR=1

it's all about James Hunter, now ;)

And here's the 180 link:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=256092


Posts: 1379 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: This side of R that side of S
tammyjean100
Member
Member # 28159
Question  Posted: 9:01 PM, June 13th (Sunday)

I am reading Living With The Passive Aggressive Man, by Scott Wetzler.

I keep saying things like "OMG" and "Holy Shit" constantly. I now recognize that my DS is also this way. Both WH and DS are master compartmentalizers also.

As a recovering doormat, I have my own PA issues, having a really tough time standing up for myself. It wil take work and vigilance for me to improve it for myself.

Maybe that's a new thread - the Recovering Doormat!!!

I can easily recognize the blameshifting, the twisting of words and actions. But I am really, really bad at responding in a way that does not give him the upper hand. I need a book of just examples of how to respond.

It's all about control. These PA men are control freaks. I hate what this does to me, yet feel powerless most of the time when WH is around.

Example: I tripped over a bean bag chair, fell against the table, and screwed up my shoulder. I have nerve problems - my arm and hand hurt like hell, and stayed numb for a long time. WH does the wood floors, moving things about. But he does not finish the job. By time the floors are dry, that's it. I asked (again) that he put things back, find a way to remember to do it. Wh stated that is is up to both of us to put things back where they belong, and blame cannot be assigned. I left the room. Later, When I wanted to say something, the response was "well, I will talk with you as long as it's not about that. WE need to be able to let go of things." So now he's doing his usual, watching t.v.

WH then suggested he make cappicino (sp) for us. I said, no thanks. He asked me if this was because I was holding things against him. Was I wrong to respond I really didn't need to give him a reason I didn't want that? I did not tell him I'd had enough coffee for one day...

better move on now - it's getting late. Tell me what you all think. Am I nuts???

TJ


You can't overcome anything without facing it. Betty Ford

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Capital District, New York
Llanden
Member
Member # 10402
Default  Posted: 11:58 PM, June 24th (Thursday)

I actually have a friend that is like this TO THE T !!!! We have always, ALWAYS had a long distance friendship. If one of us needed the other we just called and talked. Everything was in the open and we know just about everything there is to know about each other. We were 100% honest.

He has recently had some bad issues come up in his marriage and is now gong through a rather painful separation with his wife. We have become very close these last few months (his separation was way before we started getting close). I don't mean like sexually close but just closer as best friends.

But lately ..... I feel like I am going crazy. For some reason before we could express ourselves without fear of the other taking something the wrong way ... but now ....

Man everything I say gets turned around or taken wrong or something gets SO taken out of context that it gets flipped and turned and screwed up so badly I have no idea wtf it even is we are talking about ....

I was flipping through the "I can relate" boards and started reading this and was like ... That is TOTALLY him to the letter!!!

SO I found a great article on the explanation of a "Passive-aggressive man"

Taken from about.com (not sure if I can link if not I am totally sorry)

Passive Aggressive behavior is a form of covert abuse. When someone hits you or yells at you, you know that you've been abused. It is obvious and easily identified. Covert abuse is subtle and veiled or disguised by actions that appear to be normal, at times loving and caring. The passive aggressive person is a master at covert abuse.

Passive aggressive behavior stems from an inability to express anger in a healthy way. A person's feelings may be so repressed that they don't even realize they are angry or feeling resentment. A passive aggressive can drive people around him/her crazy and seem sincerely dismayed when confronted with their behavior. Due to their own lack of insight into their feelings the passive aggressive often feels that others misunderstand them or, are holding them to unreasonable standards if they are confronted about their behavior.

Common Passive Aggressive Behaviors:

* Ambiguity: I think of the proverb, "Actions speak louder than words" when it comes to the passive aggressive and how ambiguous they can be. They rarely mean what they say or say what they mean. The best judge of how a passive aggressive feels about an issue is how they act. Normally they don't act until after they've caused some kind of stress by their ambiguous way of communicating.

* Forgetfulness: The passive aggressive avoids responsibility by "forgetting." How convenient is that? There is no easier way to punish someone than forgetting that lunch date or your birthday or, better yet, an anniversary.

* Blaming: They are never responsible for their actions. If you aren't to blame then it is something that happened at work, the traffic on the way home or the slow clerk at the convenience store. The passive aggressive has no faults, it is everyone around him/her who has faults and they must be punished for those faults.

* Lack of Anger: He/she may never express anger. There are some who are happy with whatever you want. On the outside anyway! The passive aggressive may have been taught, as a child, that anger is unacceptable. Hence they go through life stuffing their anger, being accommodating and then sticking it to you in an under-handed way.

* Fear of Dependency: From Scott Wetlzer, author of Living With The Passive Aggressive Man. "Unsure of his autonomy and afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs, usually by trying to control you. He wants you to think he doesn't depend on you, but he binds himself closer than he cares to admit. Relationships can become battle grounds, where he can only claim victory if he denies his need for your support."

* Fear of Intimacy: The passive aggressive often can't trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone. A passive aggressive will have sex with you but they rarely make love to you. If they feel themselves becoming attached, they may punish you by withholding sex.

* Obstructionism: Do you want something from your passive aggressive spouse? If so, get ready to wait for it or maybe even never get it. It is important to him/her that you don,t get your way. He/she will act as if giving you what you want is important to them but, rarely will he/she follow through with giving it. It is very confusing to have someone appear to want to give to you but never follow through. You can begin to feel as if you are asking too much which is exactly what he/she wants to you to feel.

* Victimization: The passive aggressive feels they are treated unfairly. If you get upset because he or she is constantly late, they take offense because; in their mind, it was someone else's fault that they were late. He/she is always the innocent victim of your unreasonable expectations, an over-bearing boss or that slow clerk at the convenience store.

* Procrastination: The passive aggressive person believes that deadlines are for everyone but them. They do things on their own time schedule and be damned anyone who expects differently from them.

The Passive Aggressive and You:

The passive aggressive needs to have a relationship with someone who can be the object of his or her hostility. They need someone whose expectations and demands he/she can resist. A passive aggressive is usually attracted to co-dependents, people with low self-esteem and those who find it easy to make excuses for other's bad behaviors.

The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive is that they never follow through on agreements and promises. He/she will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while at the same time making it look as if he/she is pulling his/her own weight and is a very loving partner. The sad thing is, you can be made to believe that you are loved and adored by a person who is completely unable to form an emotional connection with anyone.

The passive aggressive ignores problems in the relationship, sees things through their own skewed sense of reality and if forced to deal with the problems will completely withdraw from the relationship and you. They will deny evidence of wrong doing, distort what you know to be real to fit their own agenda, minimize or lie so that their version of what is real seems more logical.

The passive aggressive will say one thing, do another, and then deny ever saying the first thing. They don't communicate their needs and wishes in a clear manner, expecting their spouse to read their mind and meet their needs. After all, if their spouse truly loved them he/she would just naturally know what they needed or wanted. The passive aggressive withholds information about how he/she feels, their ego is fragile and can't take the slightest criticism so why let you know what they are thinking or feeling? God forbid they disclose that information and you criticize them.

Confronting the Passive Aggressive:

Beware, if you confront the passive aggressive he/she will most likely sulk, give you the silent treatment or completely walk away leaving you standing there to deal with the problem alone. There are two reasons for confronting the passive aggressive. One, if done correctly you may be able to help him/her gain insight into the negative consequences of their behaviors. Two, even if that doesn't happen, it will at least give you the opportunity to talk to him/her in a frank way about how his/her behavior affects you. If nothing else you can get a few things "off your chest." Below are some ways you might approach your passive aggressive:

* Make your feelings the subject of the conversation and not his/her bad behaviors.

* Don't attack his/her character.

* Make sure you have privacy.

* Confront him/her about one behavior at a time, don't bring up everything at once.

* If he/she needs to retreat from the conversation allow them to do it with dignity.

* Have a time limit, confrontation should not stretch on indefinitely.

* If he/she tries to turn the table on you, do not defend your need to have an adult conversation about your feelings.

* Be sure he/she understands that you care about what happens to them, that you love them and that you are not trying to control them. You are only trying to get to the bottom of your disagreements and make the relationship better.

Inside the Passive Aggressive:

The passive aggressive has a real desire to connect with you emotionally but their fear of such a connection causes them to be obstructive and engage in self-destructive habits. He/she will be covert in their actions and it will only move him/her further from his/her desired relationship with you.

The passive aggressive never looks internally and examines their role in a relationship problem. They have to externalize it and blame others for having shortcomings. To accept that he/she has flaws would be tantamount to emotional self-destruction. They live in denial of their self-destructive behaviors, the consequences of those behaviors and the choices they make that cause others so much pain.

The passive aggressive objectifies the object of their desire. You are to be used as a means to an end. Your only value is to feed his/her own emotional needs. You are not seen as a person with feelings and needs but as an extension of him/her. They care for you the way they care for a favorite chair. You are there for their comfort and pleasure and are of use as long as you fill their needs.

The passive aggressive wants the attention and attachment that comes with loving someone but fears losing his/her independence and sense of self to his/her spouse. They want love and attention but avoid it out of fear of it destroying them. You have to be kept at arms length and if there is an emotional attachment it is tenuous at best.

The only hope for change in the way they deal with relationship issues is if they are able to acknowledge their shortcomings and contributions to the marital problems. Facing childhood wounds, looking internally instead of externally to find the cause of problems in their life will help them form deeper emotional attachments with a higher sense of emotional safety.

Hope this helps some.


"If you can't handle me at my worst, then you don't deserve me at my best."
“Who makes everything we experience happen? You. You have all the weapons you need. Now fight!” Sweat Pea from Sucker Punch
BS 35
DD's 14, 7 and 5

Posts: 567 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: New York
MelisssaZZZ
Member
Member # 25953
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, July 6th (Tuesday)

Posting a link which describes me to a letter.. Maybe it will help you guys too?

http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Passive-Aggressive-Husband-Needs-a-Special-Kind-of-Wife&id=2903181


Me BS - 37
WH 39
1 child - 4yrs
married 5 yrs, together 7
DD1 midmarch 09
DD2 early june 09
some more DD's of course - cannot bother to list
LTA (2 yrs) fully?? finished mid Aug 09
Status: Divorced Oct 2011

Posts: 1205 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: London, UK
Star727
Member
Member # 22026
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, July 9th (Friday)

Wow! I've spent quit a few hours reading up on PA behavior and I'm pretty sure my WH is a classic example. Thats bad news for me because I know he WILL NOT do the work it will take to cure him of this behavior.

He thinks he has done nothing wrong.

He claims his 10 year EA with a fellow coworker was just a friendship and no sex.

Four (4) times he swore to never talk to her again and I found out he never stopped talking to her.

I have found three (3) prepaid cell phones with the last 2 years.

He says he talks to her because I don't listen to him. The two of us talk constantly, everyday, all the time. I was so confused when he said that and I didnt understand what it was that I was not listening to. I was so puzzled.

Ask what he wants for dinner and he answers with "I don't know, it doesnt matter", then I cook what I want to eat and he says he doesnt want that or isnt hungry anymore or he goes out and gets fast food.

I make a decision, the task gets done, then he tells me another way I should have done it. I asked him why didnt he tell me that before I did it and he says "well, I just let you handle it".

First time I found a secret prepaid phone, he dropped it on the floor, I confronted him, he swore it was his "legal" phone. He actually got loud with me and laid his legal phone on the table telling that was the phone I saw. I calmly kept saying, "no it isnt the phone, I know what I saw". I said it so much he finally had to admit it was the secret phone I saw.

He called OW when he was in the hospital on an emergency. His secret phone was at home (2nd one). I saw our legal detailed cell bill and saw that he called her twice for 30-40 mins calls. I confronted him, he swore he didnt call her, I showed him the bill, then he can't remember.

We had separate bank accounts and he paid his personal credit card bills from his account. He stopped paying, got horribly behind, even stopped paying his carnote which was also in my name. I took over payment of the carnote because I didnt want my credit damaged. He got pissed every month when I made him give me $600 for the payment.

Speaking of the car, he knew our daughter was going away to college and most of the expense would be on us. What does he do, he had to buy a Lincoln Towncar (60 month payments) a couple of years before she left for school. That meant he would not have much money to contribute towards her education. I was too pissed with him.

Now I see why there is lack of affection between us. He's pissed that I broke up his little relationship with OW so this is his way of punishing me because I had been complaining about the lack of affection. So he refuses to give me what I feel I need in this marriage.

I have to go, but there's so much more I have to say...


Me 55, H 60, Married 25 yrs
2 Kids, 19 & 24
H had long term EA with coworker.


"It ain't about love anymore."


Posts: 765 | Registered: Dec 2008
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, August 9th (Monday)

He thinks he has done nothing wrong.

He claims his 10 year EA with a fellow coworker was just a friendship and no sex.

Four (4) times he swore to never talk to her again and I found out he never stopped talking to her.

Now I see why there is lack of affection between us. He's pissed that I broke up his little relationship with OW so this is his way of punishing me because I had been complaining about the lack of affection. So he refuses to give me what I feel I need in this marriage.

Yep. Deny there is a problem. Say you'll stop the behavior. Fail in stopping behavior. Get angry at spouse for failure. Blame spouse. Push spouse away. Punish spouse, secretly, by resuming problematic behavior until caught. When caught, blameshift again. Complain about how his needs are not being met. Make the conversation all about him. Demand you apologize for your faults, especially, you being hard to connect with emotionally.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
lostcause111
Member
Member # 19109
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, August 9th (Monday)

I am in this dynamic and if not for children i would be insane as she is to stay.

Posts: 934 | Registered: Apr 2008
onanewpath
New Member
Member # 29105
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, September 3rd (Friday)

I can't believe what I am reading. It is my BS to a T. He had all these behaviors that I didn't understand and thought were not connected, until I came here.
I tried so hard to please him for so many years, only to have it not be good enough. He even withdrew sexually to avoid intimacy or me feeling 'needed'. During conflict, we would come to what I though was a compromise, then he would go and do whatever he wanted anyway. When confronted with it, he 'forgot'.
It trickles into every aspect of our relationship. He can't even buy me a birthday gift unless I tell him exactly what to get. That way he is not responsible if I don't like it. He can't even admit when he is angry, yet he will stomp around the house for days... and it goes on and on.
Since my D-Day of my A, things have gotten worse, with some aggressive-aggressive behavior thrown in. It's exhausting. I wantto say and do the right things to help him heal, but with him being PA, I don't even know what that is!


Me- FWW- 34
1 ONS
1 PA (not all the way)
1 LTA for 7+ years

Posts: 16 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: PA
heartnotwhole
Member
Member # 29545
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)

My WH is definitely PA, not only to me but also our kids. If we do something that doesn't please him, he will withhold affection or material things that he has said we could have or that he has already purchased for us. My 18 year old lately has even said he was fed up with the "mind f***" game from him.


Me: BS (47) Him: WS(51) MW: (41) employee of WS D-day: 1/2010
3 kids (18,17,14) Married 21 years

Posts: 309 | Registered: Sep 2010
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, September 11th (Saturday)

It was quite an eye opener to me too when I saw how P/A my H was...I think it is a constent battle though, it never really goes away.

Couple of weird things still that he will do:

1. Can NEVER make a decision about where to go to dinner, what to have for dinner unless I catch him on it or question him and then he will throw something out there. But sometimes actually gets very ANGRY at me when I mention it.

2. Lately always wants to know where I am...even in the house. If I want to step out of the room he will right away say "where are you going?" "you don't want to stay in the room with me?" and then will laugh like it was funny...but does it ALL the time.

3. This is going to sound weird I know, but he always wants to grab me and give me a kiss or hug me when we are out in public...now not the normal little peck or cute, but like on purpose to almost embarrass us, then will turn to me and say "you see, you don't like to be hugged or kissed" and I will just look at him like, Huh?!

Just sorta some ranblings lately...its like it gets bad again or weird.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
Hearthache again
Member
Member # 28564
Default  Posted: 1:59 AM, September 14th (Tuesday)

I have known my H is Passive aggressive for a very long time. He learned from the Queen of P/A behavior his mother. She is currently in a 1 months silent treatment stand off with him because he told his sister she couldn't take our kids out for ice cream. She has gone so far as to not buy our kids birthday presents because we don't go over there enough, but gets tons of stuff for the other grand kids.

My problem with this is since I have such a strong personality and just get frustrated with him, others see him as the victim in our relationship.

I have pointed this out to him and even let things go and given him more responsibility and say in the relationship, but still nothing. I hate the mind games


Me-BS(32)
Him-WS(35)
Married-12 years together 13
Kids 4: 15, 12, 8, and 3
DDay#1 9-26-2008 Dday#2 4-26-2010
We have R!!! But I still hate the number 26!

This too shall pass
I edit a lot because that stupid box is so small!


Posts: 871 | Registered: May 2010 | From: Michigan
EasyDoesIt
Member
Member # 29514
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, October 12th (Tuesday)

This is an absolutely AWESOME thread. Awesome.


Anything less than full disclosure and total transparency is pure bullshit. WARNING! No emotional pollution allowed.

Posts: 3686 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: Georgia
EasyDoesIt
Member
Member # 29514
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, October 12th (Tuesday)

Wow. I'm going to repeat to myself out loud this statement, "I am not going to be the object of your hostility."


Anything less than full disclosure and total transparency is pure bullshit. WARNING! No emotional pollution allowed.

Posts: 3686 | Registered: Sep 2010 | From: Georgia
hurtinky
Member
Member # 26152
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, October 19th (Tuesday)

My stbxwh is PA and living with that for over 20 years has left me feeling completely worn out and destroyed.

He's perfect, you know, and I am the reason anything ever went wrong and OF COURSE, I am the reason he had to have affairs.

All I can say at this point is that I am positive that being on the receiving end of everything that a PA person can dish out is nothing short of abuse.

I'm not sure I'll ever recover.

The surest sign that I've been to hell and back, and been abused, is that I still MOURN and grieve that my marriage to this man ended. That HE decided to run like a chicken shit when I FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY stood up and said, "Enough is enough. I deserve better than this."

Everyone but me knows and feels that I've lost nothing and that I've gained everything. I guess I know this intellectually, but I feel that I have lost everything, and some days, I wish I'd just left well enough alone. We'd still be together, and he'd still be telling me how much he loved me, life would go on as usual, and he would have his little affairs. It was painful, but I'm not sure it was anymore painful than THIS, this nightmare of knowing that you lost two decades of your life to that madness. I think I prefer the sad state of ignorance.


Me --> BS
D-Day 10-1988
D-Day 9-12-2005
S 9-13-2005
D 3-6-12



Posts: 1500 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Kentucky
alura5
Member
Member # 17593
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, October 26th (Tuesday)

Question: IS there any hope? I know I am co-dependent thanks to my upbringing, and find it hard to even recognize when some of this is going on. I felt so bad the other night when a friend told me she felt bad about her "relationship" with a guy she's trying to no see anymore because he verbally abuses her, calling her a stupid b!tch and a stupid "c". I had nothing to say... because I get called things like that about once a month...

I've read the PA profiles, and know that's him - painfully so... Which basically means, I guess that unless there is a way to turn it around, or make things somehow better, I either need to give up on any hopes I have for our future, or I need to leave.

Has anyone seen any improvement in their PA spouse/SO? Even his mom has said it looks like he abuses me, she doesn't know how I've stayed so long.


"Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own." - Jubal Harshaw "Stranger in a Strange Land"

Posts: 253 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: Texas, USA
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, November 12th (Friday)

Hello all you co-sufferers out there.... my heart breaks for all of us.

I got the following, not sure where it came from. Hope it helps... KK

Passive aggressive people can be a frustrating bunch. They tend to use
sarcasm and other subtle characteristics to avoid confrontation or
avoid doing certain tasks.

Dealing with a passive-aggressive person can cause you to be irritated
and even angry because of their inherent stubbornness and lack of
concern. Many passive-aggressive people also have a negative attitude
towards many situations in life and towards other people.

If you have a coworker or family member with passive-aggressive
tendencies, there are some things you can do to help yourself stay
sane.

Recognizing the passive-aggressive traits
The first and most important way to deal with a passive-aggressive
person is to recognize the behavior. If you work with a person who has
a passive-aggressive personality, you will likely notice that they
tend to avoid responsibility for several tasks.

They might also try to avoid working on the task by using
procrastination or forgetting about it altogether. Other
passive-aggressive people might simply complain about the task or
create a sense of chaos so somebody else will offer to do the task
instead.

Passive-aggressive people also have a unique way of interacting with
others. They may seem excessively paranoid or overly sensitive about
what people are saying. They might also feel that everybody “has it in
for them” and nobody wants them to be happy.

This is a way that passive-aggressive people pass off their
unhappiness to outside factors rather than accepting their own ability
to be happy. If they can find a way to blame others, they can shirk
off the responsibility for creating their own emotions through their
actions.

People who tend to be passive-aggressive are not typically open to
receive suggestions for how to do things.

When a passive-aggressive person is given a suggestion or an
alternative way to do something, they will generally avoid doing the
task in that way out of spite for the person who gave the suggestion.

Oftentimes, passive-aggressive people will resent people who offer
advice and suggestions; the people feel their way is the best way.
Even if somebody offers another way, they will resist it despite the
fact that it might be a better option.

You might also notice that passive-aggressive people have a tendency
to be sullen and stubborn. Oftentimes, this appears to be like pouting
or sulking and it can frustrate people around them. They might also be
easily offended because they will take the things that people say to
them and misconstrue them into a personal attack.

They do this because it puts others on the defensive that, in turn,
helps them appear like a victim. Even though they tend to be overly
sensitive to the things people say to them, they are often quick to
point out the shortcomings of others.

Passive-aggressive personalities also have a fear of intimacy. For
them, intimacy is a sign of dependency and they do not like to feel
dependent on anybody or anything.

Although they often involve themselves in relationships, both intimate
and platonic, their negativist personality traits tend to be an
obstacle that presents itself.

In addition to the disdain towards intimacy and dependency,
passive-aggressive personalities do not communicate well. This trait
plays into a type of self-fulfilling prophecy.

They often feel that others do not communicate well with them and, as
a result, they refuse to communicate well with others. In fact, their
behavior has trained others around them to avoid communication.

This leads to both parties who refuse to communicate with the other.
As expected, the passive-aggressive person will blame the lack of
communication on others rather than themselves.

Avoiding conflict is another personal trait that many
passive-aggressive people strive towards. They typically have ideas of
confronting others, but they often get scared or choose to go another
route.

For example, if a passive-aggressive person lives in an apartment and
their upstairs neighbor constantly blares music, the person might
imagine going to the neighbor to ask them to turn it down. Instead,
the irritated tenant will do something more subtle to try and get
their point across.

One option might be to turn their music up to drown out the neighbor’s
music. Other passive-aggressive people might even talk to the building
manager. For some, though, this action is even to confrontational.

Dealing with passive-aggressive people
While the traits described above are many of the personality
characteristics of a passive-aggressive person, there are several
more. People with a passive-aggressive personality might only show a
few of these characteristics or any combination of these.

If you have a relationship with one of these personalities, whether it
is a coworker, a significant other, or a family member, there are some
techniques you can use to deal with them.

Passive-aggressive people can be emotionally exhausting and
frustrating. The following tips, however, can help you keep your
sanity.

The first rule for dealing with a passive-aggressive personality is to
refrain from getting into a power struggle. They have had a lifetime
of practice in doing this and you probably will not win this struggle.
In the end, you will likely end up being frustrated and the other
person will feel like they have won a battle against you.

Next, do not let the passive-aggressive person get to you. They
usually know how to get under a person’s skin and irritate them until
they become frustrated.

Once you have become irritated and frustrated, you lose any edge that
you may have with them. Passive-aggressive people often feel a sense
of accomplishment when they get somebody frustrated with their subtle
tendencies.

If you find yourself in an argument or struggle with a
passive-aggressive personality, try to turn the tables on them.
Describe the behavior that they are exhibiting in a calm and rational
manner.

They will likely deny that they are behaving in such a way and
probably say that it is merely your perception, but putting them on
the defensive will often make them back down.

You can also point out the inconsistencies in their behavior or their
argument. Trying to see the argument from their point of view will
help you debate with them with more success.

Finally, ask the passive-aggressive person how they would solve or
improve the situation. Since they are accustomed to avoiding
responsibility and making decisions, they will likely avoid the
opportunity to give their advice.

As long as somebody else makes the major decisions, the
passive-aggressive person will have somebody on which to place the
blame if something goes wrong.

Passive-aggressive personality is listed as one of the abnormal
personality disorders with the American Psychological Association. As
such, people who suffer from a passive-aggressive personality have
more limited abilities to reason with logical arguments and thoughts.

It is important to remember this if you encounter somebody who has
this disorder. Rather than debating the person using the same methods
you would use with logical person, you will need to use other types of
arguments and techniques to get your point across.

Even though it is not a debilitating mental disorder, people with this
disorder can prove to try your patience and cause a great deal of
frustration.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
texann
Member
Member # 21129
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, November 16th (Tuesday)

Can I just say that I have lived and experienced this entire post and can say that it has been the most frustrating thing I have ever been through. Passive-Aggressive behavior is insideous, and destructive. It will eat up the person on the receiving end till they don't know who they are, or who they were supposed to be. Then when you add the insult of an A to the whole situation, Wow!!! It is a definite WTF momnet. Not a light bulb moment, but a WTF!! I don't know where to go from here with this information. It is scary.


My Jack Russell is smarter than my FWH...and better trained!

Posts: 125 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Florida
oceanwaves
Member
Member # 29297
Default  Posted: 10:08 PM, November 17th (Wednesday)

Im in this club too.

H is getting better with 12 step meetings and IC.

I find this all depressing, I knew something was wrong all along.


“More than anything else, I believe it's our decisions, not the conditions of our lives, that determine our destiny.” -Anthony Robbins

Posts: 1606 | Registered: Aug 2010
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, November 23rd (Tuesday)

As long as somebody else makes the major decisions, the
passive-aggressive person will have somebody on which to place the
blame if something goes wrong.

ALWAYS leaves the decisions or big ones to me, then will complain if it did not go right or even just to complain.

I have worked very hard at learing to not engage. The A was blamed on my anger, but the anger came from having to deal with a P/A for so long! I learned with alot if IC how to not let my anger get control of my own well being...but it ain't easy as they say.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
2yrsinthedark
Member
Member # 16278
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, November 23rd (Tuesday)

I have never posted here but have recently realized my WH is a P/A. I'm hoping to get some advice. A few days ago I found out he lied to me bout a phone call and even deleted from his history. I havent confronted him but he obviously knows I know. As usual he will never confess and is giving me the silent treatment. He always tries to make me feel bad and turn things around. I'm bound and determined not to let that happen. Should I confront him or just continue with the 180? He seems to be continuing on with out a care while I'm sitting all upset


"Trust but verify"

Me-44 BS
Him-44 WS
Married 18 yrs
Dday 8/25/07
two yr EA (maybe longer, maybe w/ more than one)
4 Kids 15,13,8,8


Posts: 378 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: TX
tryinginmi
Member
Member # 29358
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, December 16th (Thursday)

ALWAYS leaves the decisions or big ones to me, then will complain if it did not go right or even just to complain.

This is my life. WOW!

My IL's are the same, and have completely turned their backs on their son because I called them on their bad behavior and he said yes, she is right.

AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

Boy do I have a lot to talk to my IC about next week.


Me - BW 38
Him - FWH 38
Her - MOW 46 Fat Assed Toothless Man Faced Whore!!!

DD#1 July 28, 2010 Admitted to EA. A went underground.
DD#2 August 19,2010 Admitted PA


Posts: 969 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Michigan
Trying_To_Decide
Member
Member # 29792
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, December 26th (Sunday)

Holy Crap, this is my life. I cannot tell you how big of a relief it is to put a name to what I am living here.

Yesterday was a HUGE PA day for WH. When we finally returned home from Christmas at my sister's, he had all these things he was going to get done...didn't doa single one.

I asked if he would put my new office chair together...he made himself buy with other things and either forgot entirely, or chose to pretend to forget .

After the argument we had last night (read my thread called Gah!!! Is that how it's going to be???? in Reconciliation), I see his PA ways completely clearly now.


Me, the BS:38 ...now 42
WH...STBX:39 ...now 43
3 kids, 13+ years

Posts: 528 | Registered: Oct 2010
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, January 28th (Friday)

bumping for Betrayed...

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Betrayed_1692
Member
Member # 29607
Default  Posted: 10:22 PM, January 28th (Friday)

Wow, so not alone. Thanks!

Posts: 865 | Registered: Sep 2010
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:24 PM, February 3rd (Thursday)

My marriage ended today. I had hope that my husband's affair with a troubled teenager (my former student) would be the catalyst for change in my PA husband. So obviously crazy wrong and inappropriate. I had hoped he would come out of the fog devastated by actions and do the work to heal himself and me. But that hasn't happened and won't. He is still blaming our marriage as the reason for leaving me. He blames, denies, and justifies his behavior. Even if he wants reconciliation (which did seem to be), he doesn't get it. PA can be so severe that is a personality disorder. Everything is viewed through the lens of PA. Taking responsibility for his destructive actions or showing (let alone feeling) any remorse for me is equivalent to a teenager admitting mommy was right. He will always feel controlled, no matter what I do. I will always be the bad guy, the one he has to keep at arms length. He can't feel empathy for me because his feelings are locked down - not just anger (a life time's worth) but love too. Any strong emotions are repressed. He is sick. A deep down soul sickness that makes true love something to avoid and mangle. Trying to work with this means I am sick too - with codependency. I realize that the loving marriage I thought I had was a lie. The elaborate games of distance, withdrawal, indecision, passive resistant, forgetting, never initiating compliments or affection, etc. etc. were there, but I overcompensated, filled in the social and emotional spaces, and eventually became so angry and lonely that I forgot who I was and changed into someone I didn't want to be. I wanted to believe that he was different, that we were different - that love would be stronger than fear, break through distorted thought processes, that true love conquers all. But in the end, he is what he was raised to be. Sad. I wanted to rescue him, give him the love he didn't have, but instead I was broken down and my anger helped him to continue convincing himself that he was the victim. Now I need rescue, a safe and loving harbor to turn to after he left. I need the love I never had - but there is no knight in shining armor for me. I have and will do it for myself, but I now realize that I have never had that in my life. A safe person. He left 6 mos. ago and the trauma of his SA with this girl that I mentored and tried to help has been agony. I still held onto some belief that when he realized what he had done, the remorse would turn him inward. Now I have to tell my two little boys that the separation will be a divorce. My heart breaks for them, so much it feels unbearable. But to try to reconcile with a man that is so deeply troubled and in denial seems more unbearable. I would spend every day aching to be loved with his whole heart and it would never be. I will miss what I thought we had, but I have to face reality. He isn't going to figure it out. He isn't going to change. Staying with him will destroy me and I will never know what healthy mature love feels like. So I am saying goodbye. I don't think he believes it yet, but he will as the light leaves my eyes, distance grows, contact diminishes and the divorce is final. I would like to think he will look back and realize how lucky he was to have someone who adored him, but he will remember the bad (mostly my frustration with his emotionally unavailability) because he needs to be the victim. Sorry so self pitying. I though DDay was as bad as it could get, but this is a different grief because it is final and without hope. Real letting go. But I am hopeful - it has been very lonely, confusing, and crazy making loving this man. I know I tried. I look forward to the day that the light is completely out. I won't have to try to figure him out or wish I felt more loved. Even alone, I won't feel as lonely. I know it will be OK.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
Faith2011
Member
Member # 30946
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, February 5th (Saturday)

LisaBrandNew

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I have also loved a PA man for 11 years. Gradually he took away everything. Sex, affection, holding my hand, compliments, wanting to go out together, my trust .. all to 'punish me'.

I believe my WH is too broken to change in his lifetime. I'm so sad but I know I don't have the time or the energy to focus on his brokeness at the expense of my own healing.


BS me
XNPDWH him
DDay Jan 2011

"Live the best life possible."


Posts: 356 | Registered: Jan 2011
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, February 5th (Saturday)

Hi Faith, So sorry for your pain. It is emotional abuse. It triggers all the abandonment and self esteem issues deep down inside of us. After my post, I cried and screamed more than DDay, more than I knew was in me. For hours, on my knees. Begging God to take away my pain (and I thought I was an atheist). I knew it was over for me, that even if he wanted to come back, that I can not let him back into my heart for my own sanity. It was the deepest pain of my life and looking back I believe it was a life time of accepting crumbs of love and emotional connection. It was about a deep wound in me that wanted so much to be loved and to feel safe, but chose someone that is emotionally unavailable. I realize that I had the same kind of parents and I overworked,fixed,etc. to earn their love. Seems to be similar. It doesn't work because it is not about us. My husband didn't leave me because I am unlovable. He left because doesn't love himself and is broken deep down. His behavior sent my codependency issues into oblivion. But I am not codependent anymore, I see the dynamic and the emotional abuse, I see my role, and I am done. I feel much better today. Still a little sad, but trusting that with strong boundaries and healthy expectations in my relationships, I can't lose.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
Faith2011
Member
Member # 30946
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, February 6th (Sunday)

(((LisaBrandNew))

Your post could have been written by me. Yes, I come from a very dysfunctional family where I learned to accept the crumbs. Where I learned that I should be 'happy' when my WH chose to show me affection yet not to expect it when I needed it desperately from him at my choosing. I tried to rescue him from his stagnant life, thinking my love would reach his heart. I was so wrong. He ended up resenting me and therefore punishing me.

I accepted and allowed him to treat me appallingly. One example: when I had a serious medical condition (asthma)and he reluctantly agreed to take me to Emergency. As I struggled to breath he sat squirming in the chair and sighing with impatience. When I told him he didn't have to stay he took off so fast my head would have spun had it not been attached to various bleeping machines. He left me ALONE in hospital. I felt so ashamed.

A good friend who is also a counsellor told me today I allowed him to treat me in this way because of my low self esteem/abuse issues from my childhood.

Later today I went to the supermarket and a man pushed in front of me. I turned to him and said "Excuse me, I was here first". He continued to served and said to me "I didn't see you" then he dismissed me.

I WAS LIVID with anger. I realised that is how I lived my life!

That man showed me what I need to fix about myself. It was like The Universe sent this man as a wake up call.

I sense from your posts, Lisa, you are an incredible woman with incredible insight. That tells me you will be more than okay. You now have the opportunity to start healing the broken part in you so that you will no longer be willing to put up with the kind of bullshit and abuse your WH thought he could do to you.


BS me
XNPDWH him
DDay Jan 2011

"Live the best life possible."


Posts: 356 | Registered: Jan 2011
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, February 6th (Sunday)

Faith - you were treated terribly. It must have been a very lonely life. Your WH was very blatantly cruel and selfish. My STBXWH was more subtle. I think more insidious and crazy making in some ways. You can look back and say WTF to clear examples of abuse. I always doubted myself, felt guilty. He is a master of looking like a good guy, but the negativity, detachment, resistance, resentment, etc. etc. seethed below the surface always. In a one minute span of time, he could be appearing to be loving or helpful and yet be obstructing, distant, or bitter. In the end, it was worse - the negativity and circular arguments about nothing. Constantly resisting everything - God, writing back and forth with you continues my epiphany. No way I could ever return to such a soul sucking situation. I am sorry he was abused, but so was I. I can't let my pity for his childhood pain (or my love for my children) make me weak. He can not come back. I hope you will do the same if he tries to return - because they often do. You have a chance to be free and heal. Since my crying and screaming (and letting go) episode, my sense of humor seems to be returning. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel - it is still somewhat in the distance, but I can definitely see it now and it gets brighter with every step forward.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
Faith2011
Member
Member # 30946
Default  Posted: 8:18 PM, February 6th (Sunday)

Dear Lisa

You are strong and yes, most often the PA will try to return. I'm aware of that and prepared. Once he is out of the house (counting down the days!) there will be total NC.

Apparently some PA's can change but it takes years of counselling and, and this is what puts me off, huge amounts of effort from the PA's spouse to learn how to communicate with the PA because they don't 'think'
like a rational logic person.

Forget that! I don't have the time or the energy to deal with WH's PA issues and try to heal from the A at the same time.

I'm over having to make all the decisions then have him complain. I'm over him and his blaming his boss/work for his inability to stick to a job. I'm over him sulking and giving me the silent treatment. I'm over him resisting, being obstructive, withdrawing, listening to his lame excuses designed to make me feel bad when it was all about him.

We both have a bright future ahead of us. We now know the red flags that indicate a PA. And I ain't going down that road again! I'd rather be alone and happy.


BS me
XNPDWH him
DDay Jan 2011

"Live the best life possible."


Posts: 356 | Registered: Jan 2011
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, February 7th (Monday)

Faith - You are right- Forget that! Dealing with the PA and trying to heal from the affair. These guys are too much work - and that's what it would be. WORK for us. I have to say that SI and strong, intelligent people like you have saved me during this time. I always feel better after time here. A little addictive though. We are going to happier than ever.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, February 10th (Thursday)

Lisa and Faith, you two are inspiring...you will move on and feel the relief and peace you deserve. I think those of us married to PA people, try SO hard for SO long...

....but the negativity, detachment, resistance, resentment, etc. etc. seethed below the surface always.

I KNOW the subtle ways my H exhibits his PA behaviors, but he doesn't realize it in himself at all, not to mention how masterful he has become in his behavior.
It truly can be crazy-making.

I am completely convinced that my H's A was a PA act. He expects people to know what he's thinking and feeling...what his needs are... Then when he doesn't get what he wants (that which he *thinks* he communicated, but didn't) he acts out to "punish them".

I see him do this with his family and those with whom he works. Fortunately for me, I have a very good relationship with one of H's sisters and recently we have talked about this.
She is totally aware, and the validation is great for me.

For now, I'm still in here, trying... but I can't say that I will always be willing to be...
The stronger *I* get, the less strength I have for *it*....


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
Beloved827
New Member
Member # 31006
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, February 11th (Friday)

I am literally in tears after reading all of the posts in this section, it is like someone reached into my soul and told the story of my life with my husband for the last 12 years.I don't even have adequate words to describe how I feel right now I just know that for once, without any uncertainty that I am not alone anymore.


Me-BS-35
Him-WS-34
M-8 years, together for 13
DDay-9/11/10
R
"Let me make something clear, you flushed our marriage down the toilet the moment you started talking to her. You just made sure it wasn't clogged by fu**ing her."

Posts: 13 | Registered: Jan 2011
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, February 11th (Friday)

Beloved827, welcome to SI, so sorry you are here.

there are others out there just like you, dealing with the same crazy stuff and feeling the same awful way.

Make sure you read the healing library (link is in the top left toolbar), and post as needed.

((((hugs))))

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:55 PM, February 11th (Friday)

S&T,Beloved,HB - Sometimes it feels like the affair has been a blessing in disguise. I don't think I could have escaped the codependent, reactive mindset I was stuck in with my severely PA husband. I was so devastated by the cheating that I had him leave within 2 weeks of DDay. The space and "Going Dark" (minimal contact due to kids) has allowed me to see his crazy making behavior more clearly. Everyone says I seem happier (less burdened) than I was in the marriage before the affair. The first 3 months were hell, but I do feel lighter in many ways. I have also realized the PA's really don't love deeply - too threatening. My fantasy, my idea of him as my soul mate is seeing the light of day and not holding up. Truthfully, I was settling for way less than a loving healthy relationship, which says so much about me and my issues. I want the real deal now - affection, communication, assertive, an equal, mature partner. He knows I won't settle for less. His games and manipulation to pull me back in are not working. He can't come back without a major catharsis and tons of therapy. He loves being the victim so much, it won't happen and I will be well on my way to a happier, healthier life. Set the bar high for what you want!! You cannot lose. I promise.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
Beloved827
New Member
Member # 31006
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, February 12th (Saturday)

LisaBrandNew&heartbroken_kk, thank you.


Me-BS-35
Him-WS-34
M-8 years, together for 13
DDay-9/11/10
R
"Let me make something clear, you flushed our marriage down the toilet the moment you started talking to her. You just made sure it wasn't clogged by fu**ing her."

Posts: 13 | Registered: Jan 2011
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 5:01 PM, February 13th (Sunday)

Another thing about PA is that we are not having the marriage or relationship that we think we are. Many people in my husband's family are PA. His aunt would tell me how she would fantasize about torturing and humiliating someone at work that was rude to her. I asked her why she didn't stand up to her. She had so many reasons - won't make a difference, why should I have to, etc. Very much like my husband. My MIL would go days without speaking to me during visits because of unknown reasons. Later I found out that she was once upset that I reached for my new baby (after I worked 10 hours) while she was holding him. Rather than realize that I missed him, she told my husband that I took him away from her and didn't think she could hold him right or something to that effect. Very strange personality disorder. My husband has probably been plotting my death (emotionally or physically) for years and I thought we were happy.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, February 21st (Monday)

I'm wondering...do you who have P/A spouses share with them that you believe they are P/A?
I've been reading here and on-line about P/A traits, relationships, etc for a while, and just last week shared my H that I believe this is what he is...
He was initially, briefly resistant, but is talking about it now with me and thinking about how he got this way.
He's even brought it up to his FOO.
Hopeful......

Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
imstillangry
Member
Member # 30154
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, February 21st (Monday)

I am thinking this fits the definition very well, just one example from many. We had a fight a couple of weeks ago and were in the car picking up the kids. My h got out of the car and walked away. We were 20 minutes early so I sat there and waited. He didn't show up so I went in and got the kids and drove them home. I then left them with big sister and drove back up there (in very foggy conditions) and looked for him, but didn't see him, so I drove back home and went to bed. When he got home an hour later:
Him: "you owe me an apology for making me walk home"

Me: "WTF, I didn't tell you to get out of the car"

Sounds passive aggressive to me


Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Florida
mrs. duped
Member
Member # 28668
Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, February 25th (Friday)

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, I might have missed this if it has already been discussed.

My question is, do most PAs have exit A's? Someone posted something about this in another forum and I have been thinking about it ever since.

I guess it makes sense if they are passively trying to end their M. Admitting to their spouse that there is a problem, or even taking the initiative to D would be too much work for a PA.

I don't know a lot about the subject but I am pretty positive my WH is PA. He is a classic procrastinator and blameshifter. He definitely has an avoidant attachment style and is extremely conflict avoidant.

Anyway, the nature of his A has always bothered me, he admits it was an exit A. When their A started, or maybe even before it did, he told OW he was going to leave me pretty soon. On D-Day, he didn't envision any other scenario than me throwing him out of the house immediately. In fact, on D-day he knew he was caught so he had already packed a bag when I came home to confront him.

I believe he wanted me to throw him out so he could be free to be with OW.

However, I didn't, I was in shock but the first thing I did was call our MC(we had started MC about 3 weeks prior to me discovering the A) and offer R. He accepted working on R right away but it wasn't like he was begging for it, I believe it is possible he just went along with R bc he was too "weak" to stand up for himself and leave if that is what he really wanted.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I am wondering if they passively try to end their M by having an A, but then maybe passively go along with R when caught, even if it is not what they really want?


me: BW-36
him: WH-34
married 8 years; together 13 years
one dd=2 years old
3 month EA turned PA with coworker
D-day: April 19 2010.
Trying to R

Posts: 141 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: michigan
Seriously???
Member
Member # 31069
Default  Posted: 5:01 PM, February 25th (Friday)

My question is, do most PAs have exit A's

From what I have read, my understanding is "no". That is rarely the purpose of the A for the passive aggressive. Change is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them. And part of why they have the A is their poor self-esteem. Leaving the safety of the dysfunctional marriage would cause severe disequilibrium. I'm not saying it never happens. I'm saying I don't think from what I've read it happens much. And look...if they leave you (the likely focus of their passive aggression) their next spouse might not be as inclined to permit it. That is not what they want at all...they need that codependence.

I have also read that if you try to divorce a passive aggressive, anticipate A LOT of foot dragging...not showing for hearings (they will "forget" they had a hearing), not agreeing to previously negotiated agreements (usually this comes just prior to having to sign it) and otherwise being as obstructionist as humanly possible.

I am currently reading a book called The Angry Smile. It's a text book on passive aggression, but reads much better! It's a must read for a codependent spouse of a passive aggressive.

Edit: I have found that 180'ing works WONDERS on my PA spouse. He HATES to be ignored. I never ignored him during the A, but I am now. It's pretty funny, really.

[This message edited by Seriously??? at 5:42 PM, February 25th (Friday)]


"You say you have the best of intentions...I cannot shake the taste of blood in my mouth."


Him: WS 49
Me: BW 44
Married 22 yrs, together 26
Two Kids 12, 18
dday #1 05/15/90 EA confirmed PA--20 yea


Posts: 256 | Registered: Feb 2011
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, February 26th (Saturday)

PAs definitely need their anger target - the spouse. However, if the spouse is not playing the codependent role anymore, the PA will leave the relationship. Of course, in some dysfunctional, PA way. Always as the victim, always blaming the spouse. The AP will most likely be damaged and codependent (if it is an exit affair and the intent is to replace the spouse with someone who will participate in the messed up dance). The OW is my situation felt so sorry for my "sweet, kind" husband. I have to laugh at the "poor me" image he projects. I sucked it up when I met him and wanted to rescue him, give him the love he never had, blah, blah, blah. I guarantee his next wife will a flaming codependent rescuer. PAs are also much more likely to have MLCs and leave the spouse. mrs.duped - you were accepting such crumbs from him when you offered R. He continually acts out his hidden anger through his passivity. Why do allow so little conviction and effort on his part. You will never know his intent for trying to R because you don't want to know, IMHO. You are still in the codependent, managing role and he is a bowl of mush. Have you thought about your issues, doing 180, and requiring true remorse and accountability from him as a condition to R.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
beyondalllimits
Member
Member # 29253
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, February 28th (Monday)

LisaBN, how did you stop the cravings? I just can't seem to do it. I wore a rubberband on my wrist yesterday, but forgot to put it back on after my shower and gave into my craving in the afternoon.

Has anyone tried hypnosis? I've done it for weightloss in the past and it worked well. I'm considering that for my cravings or 'longing' for love...


BS (Me) 50
WS (Him) 51
DD #1 7/7/10
DD #2 11/30/10 (same OW)
Married 28 yrs, together 33 yrs

Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2010
mrs. duped
Member
Member # 28668
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, February 28th (Monday)

LisaBrandNew, I know you are right. I didn't discover SI until a couple months later and initially did everything wrong. Now that I am about a year out and getting out of the initial crisis mode, I am starting to see that unless he addresses his issues, we can never have a successful R. And my codependence as well.

[This message edited by mrs. duped at 11:18 AM, February 28th (Monday)]


me: BW-36
him: WH-34
married 8 years; together 13 years
one dd=2 years old
3 month EA turned PA with coworker
D-day: April 19 2010.
Trying to R

Posts: 141 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: michigan
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)

BAL - How to stop the Codependency/Longing For Love cravings? I think for me that I get "it" so much now that reacting, fixing, reaching, etc. doesn't have the same impact or fill the same need as before. Codependency simply does not work. It doesn't work!! If you think about why we are codependent, why we accept crumbs, reach out more than half way, fix, manage, analyze, excuse, and basically scream I will do anything if you will love me and not leave me, the truth is
pretty clear. Self-worth. And the PA, emotionally unavailable, and damaged people of the world can see us a mile away. If you see yourself as less valuable (by putting up with shit, not asking for and requiring the moon and stars to stay), then you will be treated as less valuable. Those quick "love" fixes don't work at all, just a big neon "I have low self esteem" sign. When you say, through words and actions, that you are so too good for such a jackass, spell out your high expectations(but healthy and normal)and needs, and follow up by moving on if you are not getting those needs met, your message to yourself and others is one of high self worth. Realize that no one can validate you - only you can. I focus on myself and healing the issues that led to my codependency and low self worth. I practice assertiveness, healthy boundaries, and requiring respect from those in my life - sometimes it takes great willpower. But everyday I feel better, stronger, and more valuable to me.

Mrs.duped - Once you address your codependence, you won't accept anything less than a deeply remorseful, loving, committed H. Funny thing about codependence - it never works. The relationship in whatever dysfunctional form may be intact (if that is the word), but it won't last or will be a continual source of pain and unhappiness. On the other hand, self worth, 180, and zero tolerance for crumbs, at the very least will strengthen you and build yourself esteem. And also happens to be attractive. And is also more likely to encourage healthy change in others (but remember you are not doing it for that reason).

Sorry to be preachy, but I live this to my core. I am holding firm on not R with my blame shifting WH. He either has a "Come to Jesus" moment at rock bottom and owns his shit, has deep remorse, and does the deep internal work or I am done forever. I will not help him figure himself out - I am not his mother. I am an amazing woman that deserves a grown up man. And I say it over and over until I believe it. Divorce is final in 6 weeks.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 10:55 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
Lotusborn
New Member
Member # 169
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, March 3rd (Thursday)

Does anyone know of any other message boards for working through or ending a relationship with a passive aggressive spouse?


Live Laugh Love, rinse and repeat

Posts: 46 | Registered: Jun 2002 | From: Kirkland
ohgoodgrief
Member
Member # 30538
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, March 13th (Sunday)

Lisabrandnew, what an affirming post! Thank you so much!
This is one I will read over and over again.
I am really going to have to study this PA thing--the most recent thing I heard from my PA H is how 'concerned' he is about my hate and anger issues. (As in, man, there's something really wrong with you!) Sound PA?

Posts: 311 | Registered: Dec 2010
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 10:51 PM, March 15th (Tuesday)

ohgoodgrief - Thank you for the kind words. I really live what I say and it is working. I feel so much better every day. There are so many control issues with PAs. Your PA husband is using an old trick. He is projecting his issues onto you, trying to make you question and doubt yourself, undermine your perception of him and his issues, and put you on the defensive. A subtle way of breaking you down and controlling you. You know they are never to blame. Big victims. And it's all our fault.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 10:53 PM, March 15th (Tuesday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
oceanwaves
Member
Member # 29297
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, March 17th (Thursday)

Insight!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my gosh. I was reading Lisa's post in wayward and had a massive insight.

For almost all of my life I have felt "controlling" choosing partners and relationships where this controlling aspect came out. My H (PA) said after his A that he thought that I wanted someone weak and controllable. I responded no, I want someone who can take care of themselves.

Anyways. I just get it finally.

I have hand picked these people. My Dad was PA and my mom was "controlling". I have chosen partners that from the start show me that they procrastinate and don't take care of themselves. I step in and try to "help" they shame me and build up a fantasy that I am so mean and controlling because they are avoiding conflict.

We are both contributing.

But anyways, my insight is that Im not some controlling maniac. I am reacting in direct and normal relation to them. Their would be nothing to "control" if they met the bare minimum of their promises or duties.

Being called controlling hurt me and made me back off- but my H still saw whatever he wanted.

It wasn't just me!!! It may sound so silly but this is a big deal to me. It really wasn't just me- I don't "like" to control people. My problem is I tend to enter into relationships with people who avoid conflict and are PA.

This feels like a huge step for me.


“More than anything else, I believe it's our decisions, not the conditions of our lives, that determine our destiny.” -Anthony Robbins

Posts: 1606 | Registered: Aug 2010
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:48 PM, March 18th (Friday)

oceanwaves - looks like we have a lot in common (unfortunately) Ok, looks like you are ready for something more. It gets really interesting when you stop controlling (address your codependency). Remember, PAs need an anger target. If you are not controlling them, telling them what needs to get done, etc. then they will try to force you to control them (chicken or egg?), so that they can be angry with you and act out passive aggressively. They must have an anger target. My PA STBXWH really turned it on when I talked about changing roles, wanting him to take over the finances or another household responsibility (I did all the adult tasks). I asked him to take over anything that he had resented me doing (because I decide everything ). He loved to be resentful, blame, etc but he absolutely refused to step up. He knew that my codependency days were ending. I had a significant shift in self esteem and could see the parent-child relationship for what it was. It lost it's appeal completely. I was ready for a grown up and had mentioned divorce due to his extreme resistant in dealing with issues. Soooooo - he cheated on me with a messed up teenager (former student of mine). Was it to find a new codependent to bounce his PA off of? Or passive aggressive acting out? Or was he feeling that he was truly a victim of a controlling bitch? Who knows. And frankly, I barely care anymore. Yes, they drove us crazy, but "stepping in" to help adults be grownups could also be called a little something.

So now our Why for choosing PAs? No, we weren't at fault for the A, but we certainly did want to control. That is why we choose PAs and that is why they choose us. Maybe we can call control a different word - care take, rescue, manage, assist, analyze, direct, etc. There is something right off the bat at coming into contact with a PA that triggers a codependent - probably the emotional crumbs (but we say, "they NEED us. So hard to see our true motives). If we didn't get the love and safety in childhood or if it was inconsistent, our child brains believe it is a reflection of our self worth. The PA reminds us of a parent or some childhood withholding. So we try to "earn" the love or "control" it. If we are needed, if the PA needs us, they are less likely to leave us, to abandon us. If we earn their love and commitment by being indispensible, we are Ok, we have worth. Big lie to ourselves, but you can see the dynamic. So, it is a dance. When my WH offered reconciliation crumbs, I said "No Way." My codependency had broken.

I am done, not because I blame my WH solely for the codependent-PA/parent-child dynamic in the marriage, but because his response to my healthier changes was complete emotional annihilation of me. The A and the continued PA, blameshifting, etc. show that he is deeply soul sick. I can not help him. He must help himself.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 11:49 PM, March 18th (Friday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
southsidecali
Member
Member # 22752
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, March 19th (Saturday)

What helped me tremendously was reading the book..Women who love too much, Robin Norwood.

Opened my eyes, that just like Lisa said.. we picked them for a reason, to fill one of OUR needs.

We become obsessed and they become our main focus, we get "lost" and place their self worth above ours, because we are trying to "Fix, rescue, change..etcetc.." that is why when they leave or cheat, we turn it on even higher- refusing to let go. Wanting to change and fix the relationship and we start accepting blame for things because we don't want to let go of the unhealthy part of our relationship..because as long as they remain "broken" we are having "our" need to be wanted, needed met.

That book is awesome and I highly recommend it.


Posts: 743 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: CA
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 12:09 AM, March 19th (Saturday)

SSC - great information and insight! I'm getting the book tomorrow. You can never understand too much about yourself, your choices, and motives. Thanks.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
southsidecali
Member
Member # 22752
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, March 19th (Saturday)

Lisa,

I realized that in part I played a DIRECT role in helping him slide more into a PA.

I recognize now that whenever he tried to assert himself, I could not handle feeling so out of control.

For me it became a "control" mechanism, for things to be done my way and because that is what worked and his way did not make sense.

Granted he probably brought his issues, however, I think I played a very strong role in how this relationship played out. I picked him because deep down inside I felt superior to him, I knew I was smarter, financially secure, and had alot going for me. I picked him because I knew that if things didn't go my way, I could ALWAYS just walk because I never truly needed him.

I think the only thing that we end up missing is the companionship. We get used to having someone there, whether they are there emotionally to me was irrelevant. At least to me it was, we had kids and at one point, I told him that I didn't care if he said hi to me, but when it came to the kids I wanted him to show affection and tell them he loves them.

With the kids he could show affection and was loving, something he couldn't be with me but was something I need. I was willing to settle for him doing that for the kids in exchange that I go without, that was a small price to pay in my mind.

I realize now that I had emotionally shut down and detached myself from the situation a long time ago. All I wanted was for my kids to have a Dad, and under my conditions..I truly didn't care for him because if I had I wouldn't treat him with such disdain.

I cannot respect him and granted he has definitely done things that are not worthy of respect, but I know I helped create the parent-child dynamic..so why can I respect myself and yet not him?


Posts: 743 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: CA
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, March 19th (Saturday)

SSC - definitely some similarities. I adored my WH for the first 14 of the 16 years together. But it was always a parent-child dynamic. I complimented him constantly and showered him with affection. His PA was frustrating, but I justified it somehow and filled in the spaces by overworking and managing everything in the relationship. I started HATING it and resented that he would not grow up, be direct, take initiative, etc. I asked many times, but he would resist, avoid, always seemed detached, etc. The last year was really hell. His MLC depression and negativity exacerbated the PA. My responses were so unhealthy - controlling, critical, rage (when PMSing), disgust (rolling my eyes), and not being able to listen without plowing over him. I threatened divorce because I knew I could no longer live this way. It was changing me into someone I hated. I truly got lost in a crazy dynamic. I could see what was happening and tried to explain it to my WH. I said I was losing myself, that I needed him to talk to me, connect to me, grow up, change roles, etc. He just got more difficult and PA. I was very unhappy at the end - before DDay. Even though I made mistakes, I do respect myself. I have done some very hard work to see myself clearly. I have changed. I would never conduct myself as before. But I also would not remain in a relationship with someone who is PA, emotionally unavailable, conflict avoidant, etc. again. My respect for him is not there because of his cheating, but most importantly, the post DDay mess. Continuing the A, leaving me, trashing me, leaving his children, etc. etc. and not an ounce of remorse. He has not done any work on himself. He continues to justify the nightmare he created. Maybe I should be grateful. Although he left me, I would never have stayed with a cheater. Without the A and lack of remorse, I think I would have stayed for the children and been destroyed in the end. So I am free.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 1:44 PM, March 19th (Saturday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
ladies_first
Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, March 19th (Saturday)

Wonderful insight from wincing_at_light:
Most affairs are not exit affairs. That's why they don't leave. They don't want to. Affairs happen in the space between "I don't want to leave" and "I don't want to do the work to change it".

Chalk it up to fear and selfishness.


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
oceanwaves
Member
Member # 29297
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, March 20th (Sunday)

Hi Lisa and All,

Our stories are very similar.

Last year I kinda bottomed out with some bad family news. My H and I had been together for 4 years(at that point) and we both brought our bad parent/child dynamic issues in. Right away there were signs that he was procrastinating and not in an appropriate place financially. I thought that I could help and he would change. Of course he didn't change and I tried everything I could think of to "help" including shaming, blaming and straight up yelling. I was confused and because of my FOO- I just didn't get what was happening. All I knew what that I hated it.

In some ways I wonder what would have happened if he would have changed, would I have loved it- or found something else to be critical of and to fix- back then nothing ever felt like enough to me and I felt that my god given role in the world was to help people.

Anyways, In January I found out my mom was homeless from her long term drinking issues. We were estranged, but it affected me deeply. In Feb. my H couldn't "afford" Valentines day or rent a few times over. I was just at my wits end. I told his that I was done trying to get him to change and my life was falling apart and I need to live apart from him for a few months to find some clarity.

In April I left and started a 12 step program, deciding that I was done with codependency and that I wanted to heal my past, my PTSD and move forward with life.

My H lived close by- but only accessible by a 2 hour ferry trip. On his own he because very depressed, he became very angry at me (because of his secret resentments over the years). He didn't reach out for help, instead turned to sugar, anger and depression.

As he saw me take my focus off of him and get healthier and so so happy- he got even more angry that I "left him, after everything he put aside in his life for me" and fell right into the town tramp who had been pursuing him ever since she met me when I came to visit. I refused to judge things in his life and when I started- I stopped and told him that I trusted him to direct his life and finances.

I was putting myself completely back together and his A very much blew me all apart again- right into PTSD and my issues. It was like all of my limbs were cut off. I was totally vulnerable to him again and could give no more.

The only reason why I have stayed is because this A blew him open too. He turned to himself and admitted his childhood sexual abuse, PA and his selfishness and cruelty. He started therapy and a 12 step group and is starting a sexual abuse group next month. Since I was down and out- I could not work, or be a support to him at all.... in a weird way it really turned thing over to him to fix and although it is still a struggle- he is more honest and forthcoming.

One of my deep troubles is the way he completely sabotaged my progress- although in the long run it has deepened it and I have healed more.

But anyways- it is still a struggle and I never want to live in the PA/coda dynamic again.


“More than anything else, I believe it's our decisions, not the conditions of our lives, that determine our destiny.” -Anthony Robbins

Posts: 1606 | Registered: Aug 2010
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, March 20th (Sunday)

oceanwaves - you are very strong. The A is brutal, but if it is a catalyst for change and healing, then for many it can be overcome. You sound very clear about your role. I think real, vulnerable intimacy scares me. Yes, my WH has major issues, but I chose him for a reason. I'm am healing myself but the D is just the beginning. Not being drawn to another PA or emotionally unavailable man will be my goal. I hope to be brave enough to maintain my sense of self separately and independently while being open and, when right, vulnerable. It will be a whole new journey. I am just realizing how much my own fears of intimacy contributed to the dynamic in my marriage.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, April 5th (Tuesday)

Okay, I have been following your posts lisabrandnew, because you understand the PA dynamic so well.....you are a great resource - thank you.

My H is PA, and I am beginning to recognize the part I play in the PA relationship.

But I need "strategies" for actively changing the dynamic.

For example, one of our sons is getting married this summer, and I think it's the right thing to do (and my H agrees) for him to call our future daughter-in-laws father to congratulate him and begin to talk about wedding/reception plans. (I met with future daughter-in-laws mother and had a great time with her!)
My H is dragging his feet, and won't make the contact (typical for him).
I feel this reflects poorly on "us" "me" and our son -
I have not mentioned it in a week now, have "let it go" that he's not making contact - won't "nag" him....
but is there anything else can I do?

I'm stumped.....


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, April 13th (Wednesday)

S&T - Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I haven't checked this post in a while because I am no longer in a PA relationship (getting D. Sad, but life is definitely more peaceful). First what not to do IMHO - don't tell him what to do(you are not his mother)and don't do it for him. You can tell him how you feel, that you understand that he may feel awkward or uncomfortable, but that it would mean so much to everyone involved,especially your son. If he continues to avoid making contact with future DIL's father, then I would tell him your feelings again, that his lack of action is hurtful and disrespectful to you, your son, and his future DIL's family and then walk away. You can't intervene or fix this. Otherwise you will be the focus of his resentment, anger, bitterness. Remember, he is an angry child that has to play grown up and doesn't want to. He cannot look inward. He must blame an external source, usually the spouse, for his discontent, discomfort, and inadequacy. He has to receive the consequences of his behavior to come close to getting it. His son will be disgusted. The future DIL, her family will think he has no class. It is not a reflection on you. You did your part well. Let him sit with it. Don't get hooked in with his distance and avoidance. If these suggestions sound uncomfortable for you, get used to it or move on. This is life with a PA that is not in treatment and acknowledging his serious issues. Some great guidelines and info are on this website about Boomerang Relationships. http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

An excerpt - "Encourage him to make decisions--accept whatever you can during this time of building his confidence about committing himself on small matters. Whenever possible be noncritical of his actions. When you must criticize, be critical of his behavior, not him. Wild recriminations and threats only make him retreat more to his cave of isolation and anger.

When he doesn't follow through and says, ‘I can't,' remind him that it means he won't because he doesn't feel like doing what is asked. Ask him to be more honest and say that he doesn't want to do what you asked. Point out the lack of effort when he is unwilling to do something boring or disagreeable. Make fewer demands on him and only ask for what you absolutely need.

Point out how he distorts the truth and discounts problems that he creates. Use gentle, direct confrontation. Don't humor, placate or make excuses for his behavior. Challenge double messages and ambiguous plans. Point out his indirect, non answers and sitting on the fence statements. Pin him down on his confusing the issue to save his skin. When he says, ‘You know how I say things I don't mean.' Confront him with ‘How do I know which half? When you give me mixed messages I get so confused that I don't feel loving and close to you.'"

I cannot emphasize the importance of being strong and addressing the PA in marriage counseling and individual counseling. Living with a PA is hell. If he is not acknowledging his PA, then he has no motivation to change his behavior or how he views intimacy and control issues in his marriage. He will project and blame you somehow no matter how astute you become at changing your reaction to his PA. It will change the dynamic somewhat, but probably not at a level for a mutually loving, healthy relationship. At least through MC, you can address the specific behaviors with a therapist. It may be a more subtle way to approach his distorted perceptions and actions. Best of luck. If ever I don't respond quickly enough, please PM me to check out a post. I am always happy to help in any way.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 10:01 PM, April 13th (Wednesday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
mostlymine
Member
Member # 31511
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, April 20th (Wednesday)

In my relationship with Wh we are to some extent BOTH passive aggressive. Wh came from a family of an alcoholic abusive father. I came from a family that as long as I didn't make waves I was ignored and I hated for anyone to be upset. I was the peace maker and read emotions well. If someone was going to "reject" me I would do it too or first. Has anyone's relationship been like this? What steps did you take to work on it?


BS- me (30ish)
See profile for details
Getting divorced... Wh is addicted to MOW
I edit because of typos...auto corrects stinks!

Posts: 830 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: Texas
southsidecali
Member
Member # 22752
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, April 20th (Wednesday)

Dealing with a PA, yes eventually you do pick up and end up doing things that are in part PA as well.

You become conflict avoidant just like them, you end up assuming and taking on the responsibility and in turn resenting it in the end.

The thing is that the PA is so pervasive and deep that they are like chameleons- if they even get a sense of YOU got what You wanted..oh you better watch out because what used to work..the gentle "suggestions" the lowering your expectations.. drop even further.

If you are willing to accept to stay in the relationship, you will literally have to have NO expectations from your spouse. To be honest, even with you lowering your expectations, they will always find ways to subterfuge.

Unless they get help, it would be best to walk away, because you need to realize that their goal in life is to use YOU as their punching bag. They have so much hidden anger/rage and they will take it out on the ones closest to them.

Sorry doesn't sound like much help, but it is emotional suicide to involve yourself with a PA who refuses to get help.


Posts: 743 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: CA
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, April 22nd (Friday)

If you are willing to accept to stay in the relationship, you will literally have to have NO expectations from your spouse. To be honest, even with you lowering your expectations, they will always find ways to subterfuge.

Unless they get help, it would be best to walk away, because you need to realize that their goal in life is to use YOU as their punching bag. They have so much hidden anger/rage and they will take it out on the ones closest to them.

Sorry doesn't sound like much help, but it is emotional suicide to involve yourself with a PA who refuses to get help.

This is the scary part for me. I have stayed in a relationship with a P/A. I am 6 years past the A, but the stuff that gets dug up after the A can be almost more painful to deal with then the A. Sadly at some point this post may be true.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, April 28th (Thursday)

FWW with a P/A BH....I've only read like 3 pages of this thread and OMG.....I'm not crazy....


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, June 5th (Sunday)

I realize this thread does not stay up very often. I guess I am just venting here and just don't know where else to do it right now.

We have been R for the last 6 years. Tough going as I know I have a P/A personality. There are just so many things I could say or write here but they are all these little things, things that would seem to other people to be not that big a deal, but when you live with a P/A person it is like nails on a chalk board, and they seem to be OK for awhile and then it starts back up again.

I have had surgery, been on the mend for the last couple of months and lately just starting to feel better. BTW, had a hysterectomy. Been starting to exercise more, back on my work schedule, life in the bedroom is back...yet now he starts in with the complaints...I don't dress the right way lately I guess. He likes to point it out. Like he looks like a model or something? (sarcasm). Back to pushing things off on me to decide...I don't know, its just so maddening sometimes I just want to scream at him "GET OUT!" I need this like I need a hole in my head.

2 of his friends around him have broken up with their either girlfriends or SO's. Everyone is in the late 40's or 50's and I just look at all of them like my God, what the heck are you people doing with your lives?

I am in a really pissy bad place that just does not have one iota of patience for this tick, tick, tick...like water torture.

Why do I do this? What am I hear for? I so wish for someone who takes control, makes decisions, buys his wife gifts, plans vacations, pays the bills....he will be good for awhile and then it goes right back. When I had surgery he was really great, truly. He has been working in the yard on the landscaping, he goes to work. But he is so critical of me, finds fault. So sick of it and really don't want to play this game on many days.

Just venting...thanks for listening.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, June 6th (Monday)

Rescuer - where we continually rescue and protect others from themselves because somewhere deep inside we deem them incapable of helping themselves. Everything will be Ok when left in our capable hands. We often lie here to keep others from interferring with our perfect plan.

Persecutor - where P-A comes in as we punish the ones we rescue because they are not as thankful as we think they should be. Resentments build and we act out selfishly.

Victim - why does this always happen to me? No one appreciates what I do for them. Some even dislike me for having tried to rescue them.


I hope the mods don't mind, I pulled this from another forum, but it was so true of my H I just had to highlight it here.

This last week seems to be ramped up for some reason, he seems very agitated, will walk up to me when I am pouring a cup of coffee and say to me "here let me do it" and I will just look at him like, huh?! why are you asking to do something for me that I am in the process of doing? He will do that alot with the smallest of things, and then get mad at me and say he was just trying to help. Weird stuff.

We got into a discussion yesterday as he once again wants to go out and "do" something, he is bored, but won't make a decision where to go or what to do.

He is working on the landscaping, which is great don't get me wrong, but he gets mad when I don't sit out there and talk to him or keep him company. I work from home quite a bit and he just hates it when he is home (he will say otherwise) and I am working in my office.

Like I said, my radar should be up because he is ramping up this behaviors and it is maddening to live with.

Oh..and another thing, I did not ask for anything on Mothers Day, just a card and out to dinner, did not want to cook. He is already saying he wants an expensive certain gift for Fathers Day and when I don't say anything or figure out how to get it for him he gets mad.

He is going out of town for a couple of days and quite frankly I am ready for him to be out of my space. ITs exhausting!


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
dreamlife
Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 3:05 AM, June 20th (Monday)

Hi all~

Verbal Abuse...that comes right out of the blue.

How do you handle this?


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
dreamlife
Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, June 22nd (Wednesday)

bump~


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
wontdefineme
Member
Member # 31421
Default  Posted: 12:56 AM, June 23rd (Thursday)

It is so strange to read your life through someone else's eyes. I belong here, who knew I was in a PA relationship. It all makes so much sense now.

Posts: 2118 | Registered: Mar 2011
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, July 1st (Friday)

I am trying to address our P/A marriage....it's SO tough...

I realize I have my role in it, and it's all tangled up and crazy.

We go along okay, sometimes good, as long as it's surface stuff we talk about or if we're having sex, or enjoying the company of our visiting kids, but whenever we're just hanging out, and I bring up a sensitive issue my emotionally immature H goes silent, starts getting agitated, shuts down, or yawns.....and then I stop trying to communicate with him....
I can't seem to break this cycle..if I stop trying to communicate with him, it's good with him - it's what he's used to, is dysfunctionally comfortable with, and thinks of as "all's well".....


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
Faith2011
Member
Member # 30946
Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, August 4th (Thursday)

bump


BS me
XNPDWH him
DDay Jan 2011

"Live the best life possible."


Posts: 356 | Registered: Jan 2011
Agate
New Member
Member # 33038
Default  Posted: 9:34 PM, August 7th (Sunday)

Today my PAH was suggesting D, and I said but you need me. He just looked at me with the coldest eyes and after about a minute, said, "I need you for what?".

Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2011
suspicious247
Member
Member # 33014
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, August 8th (Monday)

Add me to the list of people who are in a Passive Aggressive relationship and had no clue til reading this thread. It makes me feel less hopeful about the future of my R.

So many posts here sound like they are coming out of my mouth ,or like they are with the same man. Mine always says he is bored and wants to do something but never comes up with a plan. Never has any suggestions on what to do. Never wants to pick a place for dinner. It's all "whatever you want babay". Then I suggest somethng and he shoots it down. It's maddening. I haven't known about this site for long, but man has it opened my eyes.


Posts: 386 | Registered: Aug 2011
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, August 11th (Thursday)

suspicious247 - Its maddening isn't it? One simple question becomes a HUGE argument. All you want is for your SO just to give an opinion? Or just say where they would like to go? And when you press them for an answer they get mad at YOU!

Mine will say "You know I am happy with whatever we do or whatever we eat, I like everything!" And I look at him like, huh?!

Yet they complain that they are bored or want to go "do something" yet seem to think we are the cruise directors of their life.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
Agate
New Member
Member # 33038
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, August 12th (Friday)

Passive Aggression is considered a form of aggressive narcissism which is half of the Hare psychopathic scale.

The other half involves pathological lying and criminal type behavior.

This is a very rigid cluster of behaviors, so it makes sense that everyone's experience would be relatively the same.


Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2011
Miss Saigon
Member
Member # 31965
Default  Posted: 4:02 AM, August 13th (Saturday)

i also belong here, my WH is PA and I am absolutely co dependent.
thank you so much for all the inputs.
simply great to live again:)


BS - me 43
WH - 39
2 kids - ages 7 & 4
together 10 yrs, married 7 yrs

rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness... give me truth.
-H Thoreau


Posts: 73 | Registered: Apr 2011
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 8:10 PM, August 13th (Saturday)

Agate,

tell us more about what you know about the aggressive narcissism stuff. Because I am really worried my WH is on the way to becoming psychopathic with the IC he's been getting putting him on this complete selfishness bent lately.

kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Agate
New Member
Member # 33038
Default  Posted: 1:57 AM, August 14th (Sunday)

Oops, posted it on NPD forum, but will here, too. best of luck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

I think it was in his book, living with the Passive agressive man, that the author lists it as a symptom of aggressive narcissism.

This is Factor 1, "Aggressive narcissism", in the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, which includes the following traits:

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative

Lack of remorse or guilt
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning


Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2011
momdaughterwife
Member
Member # 32209
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, August 14th (Sunday)

Thank you for this thread. BINGO this is my WH and is at the crux of every problem we've had for 20 plus years between marriage and dating. It's possible I behave in PA ways, too. Thanks for the book titles, I have a new list of books I need to read. I'm still a little confused, but I recognize the misplaced anger, the "baiting" that occurs, etc. It seems my WH wants to provoke me, then play the victim or take pleasure in the "See, you're the unbalanced one, not me" reaction to my anger. He is emotionally unavailable, critical, judgmental, etc., from the beginning. I grew up in the exact same situation, so didn't know any better when we became involved. My WH's mother is/was a martyr, and PA rules his home growing up as well. Wow. I feel overwhelmed and I have so much to understand about this. This topic boggles my brain almost as much as the disease of alcoholism.


Me BS
Him WH
2 boys
We've all been through a lot. Our family seems to be thriving again. I pray that will continue.

Posts: 825 | Registered: May 2011
Agate
New Member
Member # 33038
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, August 22nd (Monday)

oops wrong thread. :)

[This message edited by Agate at 10:47 PM, August 22nd (Monday)]


Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2011
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, September 2nd (Friday)

Hi everyone,

So again I have learned something new about XH by reading SI. Looks like he fits the passive-aggressive bill perfectly. He would never give me a straight answer etc. I always thought I was going nuts. Even now, I have taken to comminicating with him via email because then it is documented just in case he starts to lie about things again. We share a child so I have to speak with him somehow. Funny, I used to think he was bi-polar because I didn't have a better way of describing his maddening personality.

Anyhow, so this really brought my mind thinking.
He had an affair and left for her. Mostly because I cornered him and made him choose. He left our home and went straight into her apartment. What I want to know is: does his pull these same behaviours with her? I hope she is the new target and starts to feel the same amount of crazy that I did with him. Because in my mind, it would only serve her right for getting with a married man.

I know, that's horrible. But really, can someone give me some insight? Or is he now truly Mr. Wonderful and she is not going to be dealing with the passive -aggressive behaviours?


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
MtnMama
Member
Member # 33151
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, September 2nd (Friday)

He will do the same thing with her. It make take him a bit, but you can't change the spots on a leopard. His true colors will come out with her. The good thing is that it is HER problem now.

Posts: 88 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: Ohio
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, September 3rd (Saturday)

It is always there with a P/A personality, but it is the BS of this personality that just does not see it coming for quite awhile. P/A behavior is like water torture, it takes awhile for it to sink in, it is slow and painful. A BS lives with it for a long time before realizing that something is wrong with the WS, not the BS. That is what P/A is...a way to pass the blame onto anyone who happens to be in an intimate relationship with them. We have been chosen, we just don't know it until it is too late.

Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, September 7th (Wednesday)

Hi,
I have another question.
How do P/A men do as fathers on the whole?

I have an example. Our divorce is final. He would not commit to sharing college expenses in the future when the time came for DS who is 6 right now.. Basically he has about 12 years to save up for his half of college expenses. But he would just not commit to this. When I backed him into a wall, his reasoning is that DS might come to dislike him (for affair, and basically abandoning us) and then he'd be stuck paying for a college education.

WTF is that nonsense? You put a stipulation on your kid's love? Sounds so cruel to me. What do you all think?


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
npain
Member
Member # 33539
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, October 30th (Sunday)

I just came across this post tonight and it is a real eye opener...explained my husband to a tee. No wonder why he called me selfish, and contolling and won't take responsibility for his 4 year affair! He has exhibited so much angeras if I was the one who cheated on him. And there is so much resentment, things that I thought were resolved years ago, he is still holding on to. We are 3 months past Dday and I seem to get no remorse, blameshifting in the worse way and rugsweeping like you wouldn't believe. One question though--I tried doing the 180 and it seems not to be working. has anyone had success using 180 on PA personalities?


S,beginning D

Posts: 508 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: New York
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, November 27th (Sunday)

npain - I know it has been a while since your post. My D from a PA WH is almost final, so I don't visit this thread as often.

To answer your question about the effectiveness of 180 on PAs - It is your only choice if you want to save yourself, be healthy, shift the unhealthy dynamics in your M, etc. PAs, especially at the PD level, are unable to take responsibility for their actions. Blameshifting, projecting, being a victim, etc. is their filter. They cannot see that their conflict avoidance, PA, etc. is even present. They literally believe that you and everyone else should never put them in the situation where they have to assert themselves, express difficult emotions, address conflict, etc. They can't or won't do these things because of their damage and distorted thinking, so it is YOUR FAULT. Their stored anger is YOUR FAULT. You deserve their resentment. The A is YOUR FAULT because YOU made them feel hurt, slighted, etc. at times during the M.

PA is a deep personality disorder/traits. If the 180 does not work, then they are too sick, probably at the PD level. If you hold strong and long to the 180, some with PA traits will be left alone (without someone to blame in front of them)and may possibly acknowledge they have a problem. It is a very difficult issue. PAs will often seek a new codependent when the spouse is no longer engaging in the dysfunctional dynamic, reacting, etc.

I honestly understand why so many PA specialists say, "Run!!!" It is that difficult for PAs to acknowledge a problem and stay in treatment.

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 2:37 PM, November 27th (Sunday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, November 27th (Sunday)

I came to this board to read about npd but WOW this is what I have endured for. 8 yrs.

I thought he was bi polar with the ups and downs. He is so selfish refuse to apolgize and admit he is wrong.

There will be no reconciling here since it hurts Him so much

[This message edited by LionessQn76 at 3:59 PM, November 27th (Sunday)]


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
trebleclef
Member
Member # 33488
Default  Posted: 6:31 PM, November 27th (Sunday)

Three months since d-day and not new to SI, but first time on this thread. SO helpful - Thankyou to Lisa for her many wise words and information. I have been sure my WH had a personality disorder for at least the last 20 years but didn't know what. Wondered about bi-polar as well due to the extreme mood swings, but my psychiatrist disagreed. Then I researched NPD - saw some similarities, but when I finally came upon PA I knew I had hit paydirt! Have done quite a bit of studying already but these resources will give me more. My WH is so extreme in every single trait that I am sure it is pathological, not just a tendency.

I walked right into this - he has shown these traits since I met him at 15. But I was perfect for him. I already knew all the steps to this dance from my FOO and didn't know it wasn't normal. We fit. Now that we are separated due to the A, I can see more clearly than ever.

Unfortunately,the professionals will tell you treatment and recovery is rare. Two of the most inherent traits are denial and victimization, both of which prevent the PA from recognizing their need or seeking help. In my case, the fact that he has been like this for at least 41 years is not hopeful. Although he says he wants R, it would literally take several miracles and I have about 1/1000th % hope. Giving it a little more time - but pretty sure D is on its way as I WILL NOT LIVE LIKE THIS IF I HAVE TO BE ALONE FOREVER AFTER!

Am posting some examples of traits as I have experienced them, as I know as a newbie to all this I found that helpful. (Mine was always very subtle - even more crazy-making)

When we were dating:

I quit Judo because he was uncomfortable and I had to prove I cared about his feelings.
I declined a summer job because I had to prove I cared about his feelings.
I moved to his city against my better judgement and ended up pregnant (Had a life-threatening miscarriage - then had sex with him days after the operation to show him that I cared about his needs/feelings.)
I didn't talk to people I liked, didn't wear what I wanted, was hesitant to tell him things, walked on eggshells, cried a lot, constantly asked him what was wrong and got no answer, endured his silent treatment, and spent my life trying to figure out what would please him. And it was never because he was being unreasonable or impossible to please - it was always that I did not care enough about him.

Then we got married.

Loving, supportive, romantic, charismatic, widely known as "the husband to be jealous of". And he was.
But then he would go to Walmart and come back slamming things, obviously angry - and would stay that way for an hour, a few days, or weeks, or six months.
What did I do now? was answered with "Nothing", or "I need to think about it" or "I'll get back to you" or " It's better if I just keep my mouth shut."

It has been a family joke for years that no one tells Dad what to do. He will not even follow a recipe or instructions.
He will ask me what to do and then do it wrong and blame me.
If it's suggested that it's getting late, he will deliberately slow down, take the long way, or stop for a lengthy, unnecessary errand. OR, my favorite - carefully wash and gas the vehicle, making sure to check the tire pressure as well - all for you.
He would volunteer to wash the floor for me if company was coming, then wait until they arrived to do it.
When I asked him to do just ONE small task a month before our daughter's wedding, he readily agreed, then waited UNTIL the wedding day.
He refuses to open bills and takes no responsiblity for our financial mess, but hugely resents me trying to manage things.
He hated any plans or schedules I had for dealing with the children and would sabotage them constantly, claiming I had to have it MY way. I just needed to have SOME way and asked for his input, but of course he would never come up with plan of his own.
I have learned to be very self-sufficient, knowing that if I really wanted anything done, after a year or more of waiting I would have to do it myself. Yet he felt emasculated when I did and resented me even more.
If I wanted something I had to try very hard not to say so or I was pretty much guaranteed it wouldn't happen. The trigger was ME suggesting it.
If I asked him to please just make a SMALL fire, he would stack the wood as tight as he could, send the temp. in the room to 92 degrees and then go lay down in the cool bedroom while our company sweated and then left. My requests were clear indications to him that I didn't care about him being chilly.
When I confronted him about abusive behviour toward his kids, his reply was "I can't believe you would say such things about me. I will have to think long and hard about whether I can be with someone like that".
Like the others, he would press me to make a decision, or spend my time researching, coming up with ideas, just to shut me down. If I protested, I was controlling.
I accidentally walked into a ladder on his truck and clocked myself good. His response? "WHAT were you thinking?!"

He was rarely verbally abusive, and always made a pretense of complying, but really did all he could to sabotage everything.

The predominant feeling in a PA relationship is overwhelming frustration - damned if you do and damned if you don't. I spent years in therapy trying to find the "right" way to present issues - there isn't one.
I was not a nag or a bitch - never raised my voice, always tried to "be the adult", none of it works. NOTHING works. They are sick, and the poison will make you sick too.

I'm thrilled that some of you have had some breakthroughs with your PAHs; many of us will never get to experience that. So sad.

( And here I am, still wishing I could help him somehow, and still angry that he continues to think I wrecked him. "sigh")

[This message edited by trebleclef at 6:52 PM, November 27th (Sunday)]


True remorse isn't followed by a "but".

Posts: 1809 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: Alberta
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 8:01 PM, November 27th (Sunday)

trebleclef - are you still with him? In the last 15 months since DDay and STBX leaving, I really tried to focus on myself. Being a codependent that CHOSE a PA man for a husband, I clearly had issues that I didn't want to see. Codependents fear rejection and abandonment. The emotional crumbs from the PA spouse just keep us in reactive, desperate, pursuing mode. Because it is about us (all of it), not them.

It is very easy to get stuck in victim mode when there is infidelity and abandonment. If we fix them, they will love us. Then we will be OK, validated, worthy. Such bullshit and lies we tell ourselves.

The goal here should not be to have a break through with our PA spouse. The goal should be to have a break through with ourselves. To not pine and ache for the love and acceptance of a man that can not love. Sad is not loving yourself more than you "love" him. I put love in quotes because as sick as PAs are, so are codependents. The love is often more about FOO issues being played out than real, healthy, mature love.

Sorry to be tough, but extracting your mind/self from the twisted dynamic of a codependent-PA relationship is very difficult. Codependency is just as maladaptive and dysfunctional. We have to focus on getting ourselves well and not focusing on the PA spouse as a means to direct focus away from our own issues.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
trebleclef
Member
Member # 33488
Default  Posted: 2:22 AM, November 28th (Monday)

I understand Lisa - and thankyou. No, I left him the day I confronted him. I had asked him to leave and he refused (citing "rights" to HIS house, bedroom, and bed.) So I left. He was already "working" me - please can I get a hug, Please go for walk with me etc. etc. I knew I had to be away so I wouldn't get sucked in again. He still tries, but now it's via email. He does his best to make me feel guilty, and I do my best not to. Most of the time I succeed. I have good people around me to keep my reality in check, and it's easier the less contact I have. You are right - I am just as sick as he is, but I am working hard to get well, for myself. He's not.


True remorse isn't followed by a "but".

Posts: 1809 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: Alberta
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, November 28th (Monday)

OMG treble I went through the exact same crap with my ex.I had no idea that being passive aggressive was this deep!


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, November 28th (Monday)

trebleclef - you are doing amazing! It is so tough,especially when they are working you, trying to get you back, etc. I consider myself in codependency recovery. I have to work at self focus everyday. Keep going. You are being so strong.

Congrats to you Lioness for breaking free!


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, November 28th (Monday)

Npain
When I did the 180 it was for me to get some peace of mind.he only saw it as me ignoring him and gave him a reason to be with the hofriend.

It helped me bc I didn't talk about the relationship until I was ready. And it was on my terms.

The day I broke 180 and said we can work on this I went to our apt the hofriend was there alone!

So glad I'm done!


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, November 28th (Monday)

Npain
When I did the 180 it was for me to get some peace of mind.he only saw it as me ignoring him and gave him a reason to be with the hofriend.

It helped me bc I didn't talk about the relationship until I was ready. And it was on my terms.

The day I broke 180 and said we can work on this I went to our apt the hofriend was there alone!

So glad I'm done!


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
npain
Member
Member # 33539
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, November 28th (Monday)

((LisaBrandnew))Thanks so much for the insight. I have been doing the 180 and it seemed that he was doing it back to me. However, I am starting to see signs that it is getting to him. I had a shopping trip planned and my ride came to get me and when I let him know I had to go, he got very annoyed that I had other plans. In fact I have made sure to have other plans whenever he is around, when he is not around, I suddenly have a packed calendar. We do not speak except around the kids and I suddenly have a lot of friends to chat with on the phone. He tries to make it look like he has a life too but signs are that he really doesn't, it's just a front to counteract that I am moving on without him. And I am moving on, not just playacting. I think he realizes that at this point.

((LionessQn76))I am doing this for me, it is the only way I stay sane with him in the house. I was on vacation this past week and I rearranged the bedroom furniture and redecorated. I didn't let him know I was off work and didn't ask for his imput. It looks beautiful, romantic and serene. I know he's pissed off as hell that he is sleeping on the couch. However, he knows that I'm the kind of person that would fix up the bedroom anyway, so he knows it's not an act. I have been leaning on God too. Praying has helped a lot to heep my head on straight.

Much hugs to all those in the same boat..dealing with more than one thing at the same time is so hard.


S,beginning D

Posts: 508 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: New York
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, November 28th (Monday)

trebleclef....could have written EVERYTHING you posted there. His need for me to show that I "care" is so weird if one does not go thru it. Mine will do it at the strangest times...then when I am busy or tied up or working in the yard and don't pay attention to him when he thinks I should??? Judgement and Jury. I am less then.

I have worked hard to not respond, therapy helped me with that...but how they look to you for all of their wrongs is so bizarre.

I too take care of all the bills...have begged him to take them over, he will do them for a couple weeks and "purposely" do them wrong or make them late and then when I step in to pay them on time he will say "see, you won't let me do them my way" and then walk away. BTW, he tried that one at MC one day and the therapist called bullshit on him, caught it right away and my H was pissed off! But I had believed him for so long that finally when someone called him on it I was like WOW...I am not crazy.

So many things on that list are so true for all of us.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, November 28th (Monday)

Trying to get you to "show that you care" is also about dependency stuff, controlling and trying to keep you in the dynamic. PAs are not true adults. The codependent/PA relationship is also called the parent/child relationship or the pursuer/distancer relationship, etc. Both are dysfunctional.

They are angry children that do not want to play grown up - so they pout, obstruct, etc. Basically a constant, quiet temper tantrum.

Rescuing, managing, etc. turns you into the mother of a tantruming child. So, please .... don't reach more than half way on anything in the marriage - not housework, tasks, bill paying, emotional, sexual, nothing. They either figure it out and grow up or they have to go.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 6:15 PM, November 28th (Monday)

I don't know if I want to cry or laugh.

Reading these post is like reading my biography for the last year.

I feel like an idiot not seeing how manipulated I was. I can't believe how manipulative and immature he has been during the cheating and after.

He even manipulated me into reconciling only after a wk I wasn't kissing his behind and I wanted to read about r before anything. He told me" I wasn't saying nything" or "it seems to me the more i talk about the cheating you see me different"

Even after dday he was mean and nasty towards me.

Didn't he lie and cheaT for months while I suffered in silence with PPD.

Jackass


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, November 28th (Monday)

Lisa
THANK YOU wish I had this info yrs ago. Esp this past year I thought he had bad coping skills and was depressed.

The personalty traits iS scary bc I was his "fuckable mommy" now I know I was right I'm not just a jilt crazy woman.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, November 28th (Monday)

Lioness - I wish I had understood codependency and PA earlier in my life too. But now we know!

The PA understands very well that the codependent REACTS to distancing, detachment, cruelty, witdrawal, etc. by PURSUING. We reinforce their behavior by rewarding it. I know...sucks to know we were equal partners in the f***ed up dance. But we were.

No one can manipulate us without our permission and support. It is a dynamic. PAs don't seek healthy partners and vice versa. Instead of "he manipulated me," try "I allowed myself to be manipulated because .. (I wanted him to want me back so I didn't feel rejected, abandoned, unworthy)or (if I could fix him, he would be nice to me, making me feel worthy) or (I love him more than I love myself)or(emotional crumbs are better than nothing) or (I look to him/others/external sources to validate my worth and give me the love I can't give myself).

We have to find our WHY. Why did we find the PA attractive in the first place? Why did we accept and settle for crumbs, loneliness, frustration and all the fun the PA brings to the marriage? What are our FOO issues?

As for the "fuckable mommy," that ends eventually. The PA's resentment (stored, hidden anger) leads them to rebel against "mommy" by withholding sex or having an A or leaving to find a fresh, new codependent to start the dance again. They are SO MUCH FUN!

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 7:13 PM, November 28th (Monday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, November 29th (Tuesday)

Thanx lisa yea I know I let a lot go bc I was in between jobs and then my mother and brother passed and then I was pregnant.

So I never confronted my issues with his dependency on me guess I needed until the baby came then it was just sicKening.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
selkiescot
Member
Member # 23777
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, December 1st (Thursday)

I feel like a just relived 33 years of my life reading all these posts. My WH is classic PA! I don't feel so crazy anymoore. I thought it was ME!
A typical conversation:
Me:How was the doctor/therapist visit?
Him: fine
Me: what did you talk about?
HIM: stuff
Me what stuff?
HIm you know work and stuff
ME: why what happened at work?
HIM: same old same old
Me:getting frustrated. what same old old?
HIM: you know what my boss always does.
ME: NO what does your boos always do?
Him: what's for dinner?
ME AAAAAGHHHHHH!
Me" did you pick up milk?
Him: I forgot. Did you tell me to pick up milk? I don't remember you telling me. So It's your fault that I forgot to pick up the milk.


The truth shall set you free or reveal the name of the OW!
ME 57
WH 64
DDAYs TOO MANY
daughter 27
You give me gifts! I don't want your gifts I want the truth. That's the greatest gift.

Posts: 1373 | Registered: Apr 2009 | From: CT
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, December 2nd (Friday)

Is anyone partner a textEr. I noticed during the fling with hofriend he only text each other.

But I notice we have a convo then he leaves and then 2 seconds later he's texting me his point of view or manipulating whAt I said 2mins ago.

WTH does anyone deal with this?


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, December 3rd (Saturday)

The PA understands very well that the codependent REACTS to distancing, detachment, cruelty, witdrawal, etc. by PURSUING. We reinforce their behavior by rewarding it. I know...sucks to know we were equal partners in the f***ed up dance. But we were.

Yeah, so true. It took me a long time to see I was CoDep...you see I was such a together person, good business woman, took care of everything, very logical...I had this false image of what I "thought" a CoDep looked like and it wasn't me. UNTIL I found the book "Codependent No More" and also started reading up and learning about P/A's. I was then like shocked

This was ME, this was my life....talk about big huge lightbulbs that went off. But it also meant that I had to learn to fix MYSELF and not try to figure out how to fix him. Once I started to learn the techniques of stepping away instead of stepping towards him when he acted out, it make a huge difference.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, December 3rd (Saturday)

One other thing...I have a P/A who is a tricky one, in the fact that he uses his KISA techniques to the MAX, meaning he loves to look like he is saving the day by helping me out, or helping a stranger or helping out too much at work. And I know that sounds so weird when I say this as people mistake it for kindness. And it is, but he does it for the praise...again, as weird as that sounds. And when someone doesn't acknowledge this or help him or in my case keep him company while he is doing a chore around the house he gets mad. Or I get the silent treatment. He doesn't like me leaving the room to go read a book or go watch a TV show I want to watch.

So this is a very weird and very deceptive type of P/A that I deal with....I also thought he was so nice and so thoughtful and loved me so much...until he gets resentful and angry out of the blue. I have always said that thru our 30 yrs together he seems really good for about 4-6 yrs and then its like he has to self implode his whole life...he has done this with his career throughout the years and our marriage. Very strange.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
trebleclef
Member
Member # 33488
Default  Posted: 11:54 PM, December 3rd (Saturday)

Thanks, Lisa.
Reality - It is very hard to be around a PA who has victimization issues. Mine has manipulated me forever by using guilt. It is astonishing how they manage to twist things around so you are guilty of their misbehaviour. I bought into that because, as I said, that was how I was raised. However, always trying to be more perfect has made me into an amazing person, lol!

[This message edited by trebleclef at 11:55 PM, December 3rd (Saturday)]


True remorse isn't followed by a "but".

Posts: 1809 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: Alberta
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, December 4th (Sunday)

realitybites - What better way to set you up to be the bad guy, doubt yourself, or feel guilty. "Well, he is trying." Codependents are so grateful for any help, any crumbs. Equal participation from a partner can make us feel guilty.

They learn alot from us. We give in to silly requests/demands, such as keeping them company while they do a chore. Or apologize for asking for help, etc.
When I look back at my own behavior, I cringe. Now, I would say, "Really? I think you can manage without my company" without a drop of guilt. Any attempts to make me feel guilty would not work and pretty much disgust me.

trebleclef - they twist things around to make us feel guilty because they can. Would the same behavior from him work now? For me - NO WAY!
A PA Man-Child would not attract me now in any form. And they come in lots of emotionally unavailable forms. For me, the wounded man afraid to love and trust triggered my rescuing, my pity. I wanted to give him the love he never had, to make him feel secure and safe. The deeper I go into my own codependency recovery, I realize that it is me that wanted/needed those very things. I was just so used to not having those needs met. Denial and repression became my coping methods. I know what I need now. I will rescue and fix me. I will give love and safety to myself. In a partner, I expect a loving, communicative, emotionally available, mature grown-up.

A healthy man and real intimacy will scare the hell out of me. I have no reference point for a healthy loving relationship. The book, "Fear of Intimacy," says to just do it. Don't run away. Don't panic.

Live and learn a new language, a new dance. That you are perfect for yourself or for someone exactly the way that you are. That you don't need a role or to be needed or to work your ass off to be loved or keep love. And that no one defines your worth. Never love someone more than you love yourself.

Interesting that so many of us are successful, intelligent, and amazing. For me, I always thought being the best, working the hardest, etc. in any area would "earn" me acceptance, indispensability, and affirmation. That was a hard realization that I never thought I would be accepted just as I am. But, on a good note, I have one hell of a resume!

Sorry to be soapboxy, but PAs are crazymaking and really do a job on our already shaky self esteem. Detoxing from codependency and a PA relationship requires real vigilance. Best wishes to all on our journey to reclaiming ourselves!

[This message edited by LisaBrandNew at 9:39 PM, December 4th (Sunday)]


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, December 6th (Tuesday)

Hi all,

Longtime lurker, first time posting in this thread. I really appreciate everyone who's shared their experiences here, with a special shout out to Lisa BrandNew for being so thoughtful and articulate about PA and especially breaking free from it.

My husband is (tentatively hopeful that I can say "was") PA and it was practically my undoing. Completely crazymaking. I learned (and learned and learned) that asking for something directly was the way to ensure that I'd never get it. But that oh so mild demeanor, well, he was such a nice guy, who could get mad at him??

I'm sure I don't need to tell you all that this ended in disaster...

To my complete and utter amazement, I think he is finally starting to "get it" and pull out of it. Two things in particular I think have made this come about:

His elderly parents' rapidly declining health. They live on the other side of the country and my H and his brother were trying to take care of their parents long distance. Eventually my H started figuring out that his parents were treating *him* in the same harmful ways I had been saying he was treating *me*. As in, blowing him off about uncomfortable subjects, just to get him off their backs--but then the uncomfortable situation/problem still exists and needs to be dealt with, but now there's a layer of mistrust on top of it all. Also just being really distant, closed off, emotionally disconnected, uninterested in reaching out, etc.--this really hurt him, he finally saw that this was how he had been treating me.

So, this "ghost of Christmas future" experience really woke him up.

Then I gave him Patti Henry's book "The Emotionally Unavailable Man". I think this really spoke to him and he seems to have taken it to heart. The main premise is about men not being able to deal with womens' strong emotions ("hurricaning" is what she calls it) and so withdrawing, acceding their power and voice, relinquishing responsibility--classic PA. This was definitely a strong dynamic in our M and he recognized it immediately. Seems to have made a big difference as he's starting to realize that he really is responsible, can be proactive, needs to talk, needs to be able to be present when I am sad or angry or otherwise emotional. I'm amazed and am hoping for the best... we shall see...

I hasten to add we've talked about these issues A LOT in a couple of rounds of MC over the past year--that my H needs to "step up" and do his part. But it's only in the last month that he seems to have really "gotten it" and started to do it. The events and book above in combination seemed to be what made the key turn in the lock.

Wish us luck--as I wish you all luck.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, December 6th (Tuesday)

Welcome BostonGirl! and thank you for the compliment. I have read parts of Patti Henry's book. Hurricaning is a good way to explain the mindset of a PA man or any emotionally stunted person. It was uncomfortable to read and see myself too. The dynamic. The more he withdrew, the more I "hurricaned" him, trying to analyze, fix, convince. Lots of intensity of my part because of frustration.

It is a very challenging dynamic to overcome, especially on the heels of years of frustration and now with the betrayal of infidelity. Books can help bring awareness to the individual, but only a change in the behavior of one of the partner's can jolt the dynamic.

You are doing amazingly well, but I do want to mention that giving him the book was still you trying to fix him, enlighten him, etc. It is still Pursuit. I have never seen anything more effective than Distancing/Detachment
/180 by the codependent spouse. It will shift the dynamic. At the very least, it stops the reactive, crazymaking grip the PA has over you. Clear boundaries for what you expect, acting like the prize that you are, and acting as if/getting a life, etc. often trigger pursuit (initially the PA may intensify their withdrawal to force you back into place)in which the PA has no choice but to give up the sadistic dance.

Pursuit is not love. It is a visceral reaction. Like how rejection by the WS makes BSs want them more. But at least with detachment, the BS can reclaim herself. Let the WS/PA know that change is required to continue - counseling (and books). Suggestions are fine, but they must take the initiative to get the help and resources. Otherwise, you are back into codependency and the sick dance. It may look a little different, more empowering, but if you are doing anything to pull them along, it is the same place as before.

That is why I say that I am in codependency recovery. Fixing is addictive, a very stubborn lens for how we view ourselves and our role in our relationships.

Stand back, way back. If they are capable of change, then it must come completely from them.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 8:11 AM, December 7th (Wednesday)

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for your (typically thoughtful!) reply.

I know exactly what you mean about pursuit and fixing, and agree 100% with what you said about growth and healing having to come from him, from within himself.

For context, we are separated, have been for 6 months, and only returned to MC when we started having conflict about coparenting issues. Both he and I realize that we have to get that issue right, if nothing else--so R was not really on the table as we started MC, and we are still far from it. I am holding my ground and watching to see whether he really is turning over a new leaf, whether his actions live up to his words.

I told him three weeks ago that I would do absolutely everything in my power to get us to a friendly, functional coparenting relationship, but that I was not going to put in any effort/leadership into rebuilding a marriage, because I had done way, WAY more than my share of that while we were together, with no recognition/response/respect for that. I said, I still wish we could have the marriage we both said we wanted when we started out, but I am not going to be the one to do the work. I think that was also a wakeup call for him.

I wrestled mightily with myself about giving him that book. I bought it (among others) over the summer, when R was totally off the map, in trying to understand for myself the dynamic that was at play in our marriage--to try to understand why someone clearly smart and capable in many other ways was so seemingly willfully ineffectual interpersonally. I originally had no intent to give it (or any other book) to him.

What prompted me to do so, maybe a month ago, was seeing him struggle in MC with finally realizing that he does have a big blind spot--and that his actions/inactions really have played a major role in the bad dynamics between us that have been hurtful to and hard for him. He was clearly trying to "get his arms around the problem" but clearly didn't really know what to do to solve it. That book is specifically about how to do that, so I thought it could help him if he'd take it to heart.

Like I said, I struggled. I decided to give it because I thought it really could help him. But I also told him (and our counselor) how loaded it was for me to do so--that "putting myself out there" and trying to help in any way now feels like it's taking away from me, that I'm letting myself be taken advantage of again, that he's slacking and getting off easy.

This very issue is a big one and we are working on it in counseling too. If we are to have a good, healthy, relationship, the communication has to go both ways, we BOTH need to put in effort and do problem-solving. One of the horrible things about living in a PA relationship for so long is that I've been so burned by that and need to see a lot of proof, develop a lot of trust until I can do that again with him.

Anyway, I'm glad I did give it to him. I think it has helped a lot, and in turn that is helping me. I think it has helped him recognize that he has a voice, he has power (which he can choose to give away or not), and that he is NOT a victim.

The new leaf he seems to be turning over is really good--he is being proactive and demonstrative in a way I've been hoping for for years. I am being supportive and appreciative but also very clear about my misgivings and the sorrow and anger that is coming up now that he's finally living up to what he should have been doing all along. Amazingly, he is willing to sit with that and to engage me in my sorrow and anger and to comfort me, which he has NEVER done before, and to accept responsibility for his part and talk about how he can do better in the future. I am amazed and hope he comes through.

I literally NEVER thought I'd see this happen and am still not sure of the outcome. But even if we do end up D, just having my concerns and sorrows finally HEARD and him owning his part in it is really healing.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)

BG - I am very happy for you. You seem to be very aware of your marriage dynamics and yourself.

Your H seems like he is finally turning inward and taking responsibility for his behavior. I truly hope he continues to do the hard work on himself.

You are supportive, but not enabling or fixing. You gave him the book after he started showing awareness. Then you backed off.

These roles are so deeply entrenched. I admire both you and your H's efforts to break out of the dysfunctional dynamic. It will take time and hard work, but maybe love can conquer all this time. I think you are off to a very good start!

I know for me I am very protective of myself now. I hope I don't come across as cynical. I will try to explain why, for myself, I stay so vigilant.

I do believe that the human spirit can surprise us and transcend the damage inside(with very hard work). But I also know we can be so fearful that change and internal focus is next to impossible. I know that for me the PA, CA, emotional repression, etc. in my marriage almost destroyed me, especially the last year or so. MLC came into play and I could no longer deny that the emotional crumbs were now ever diminishing specks. I could not fix, manage, or analyze enough. I was in free fall, getting sick constantly, anxious, talking too much and too fast, threatening divorce, then feeling guilty, apologizing, then resenting feeling guilty, etc. It was a form of panic. His increasing distance was my punishment and seemed to be a testimonial of my worth.

But I continued to confront his behavior. I was tired of not having an emotionally available H. I tried to shift the roles. He knew I was changing. Our dynamic was NOT working for me anymore. The A seemed to be a final act of PA rage.

He made two very weak requests for R. I saw the crumbs again and said No. I have no regrets for the hard core distance I keep from him. My choice, my requirement so that I can have the space to get healthy. I saw every occasional kindness, helpful behavior from him, again as crumbs.

The PA behavior is a huge barrier to intimacy and healthy love. Very difficult to treat. Hidden anger breeds all kinds of mangled interactions. For a codependent desperate for love and affirmation of her worth, it takes enormous vigilance to not engage in the dynamic at some level. Add in the betrayal of infidelity, and the usual blame, projecting and hostility toward the BS, well it just seems like just entertaining R under such circumstances feels codependent for me. So for my own recovery, I feel that PA WSs have to move mountains, go to Rock Bottom, and face their inner demons to even get a second thought.

They have to prove themselves with a vengeance with deep remorse and long term, intensive therapy. To attempt R before these actions is risky to pulling us back in. So I may sound cynical, but I like to think of it as loving myself more than him. Expecting the opposite of crumbs. Expecting nothing short of biblical level redemption.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 2:45 AM, December 8th (Thursday)

I so remember when we separated, how difficult it was for me to let go. But whatever it was, that one last thing that just tipped the scales and I just snapped and wanted nothing more to do with him. So I do understand how distancing yourself from a P/A is necessary. I had chased after him long enough and I was just finally done. NO MORE. And he hated that, his rage actually got worse the more I distanced myself, in fact I am surprised we are even back together as he did every temper tantrum, ugly, mean, manipulative thing he could do to get me to pay attention and I just shut down, closed the bakery, did not engage AT ALL and it drove him batty.

Made me the happiest I had been in a long time. Still cried at night for where my life was at and how screwed up it was....but until he finally stopped the stupid manipulative tactics I wanted nothing to do with him.

Come to think of it, I should have stayed that way...I felt the best I had felt in so long and it was because the dysfunction wasn't in the room anymore!


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, December 8th (Thursday)

Lisa, reality, I can relate so much to what you both say.

Lisa wrote:

I could not fix, manage, or analyze enough. I was in free fall, getting sick constantly, anxious, talking too much and too fast, threatening divorce, then feeling guilty, apologizing, then resenting feeling guilty, etc. It was a form of panic. His increasing distance was my punishment and seemed to be a testimonial of my worth.

Yes, yes, yes. This was exactly my experience all last winter and spring, that frantic attempt to find some way to break through the wall.

Nothing worked. And my passive, won't-take-initiative-or-responsibility-for-life-decisions husband found the internal resources to plan and execute a move out of our family house alone. Never phoned, emailed, talked to me about anything except kid stuff, even though we work at the same company and are in the same building every day.

Message received, loud and clear. Broke my heart but I am building a new life without him. The recent change has been very healing and means a lot to me, and I am giving him due appreciation for it. But even though now he is clearly and ardently in favor of R, I am in no way convinced that life with him again would be an improvement over life without him--it hurt him to hear that but it's the fact. I wish we could have the marriage I hoped/dreamed we had at the outset, but that's not the marriage we actually had--and the marriage we had is not one that I will live in for the rest of my life. So, the story is not yet done.

Incidentally, his take on his leaving is so classically PA too: since I was the one who initially said we need to separate and told him about the apartment vacancy (I found an apartment nearby and close to the kids' schools, I first said I was going to move out before I realized, hey, I bought every stick of furniture in our household and I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to move it all again or buy another houseful)--he interprets this as "I kicked him out." As if there were no other response to the statement that we need to separate, you know? Not: This is the line in the sand we must not cross, we need to redouble our efforts to find a solution. Not: YOU move out, you crazy bitch. Not: This will impact our kids' lives forever but I will take responsibility for the choice I am making.

No, even though he (a) contacted the leasing agent, (b) saw the apartment, (c) signed the lease and delivered the deposit, (d) packed and moved all his shit: HE didn't move out--nope, not his responsibility at all, because I kicked him out.

Miles to go, I tell you, miles to go.



It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, December 8th (Thursday)

rb - life is more peaceful without the dysfunction in the room.

BG - Everything is my fault too because I threatened divorce. Doesn't matter what drove me to that state of mind. It's all on me - the lying, betrayal, cheating, leaving for the teenage girl that was my former student, getting her pregnant, more lying, blaming me to family and friends, blah, blah, blah. His behavior is so deep in disgusting and appalling, but I deserved to be punished.

I love reading here. It makes me realize how lucky I am to be out. And how important it is to stay out.


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, December 10th (Saturday)

This has been bothering me. The past couple weeks x stopped talking to me and seem to have a harsh tone and rushes me off the phone.

Now I know he had a appt with psychologist coming up back in November the same time he stopped speaking. I never asked about the session if he went back etc.

My first thought he crawled back to the hofriend but now I think its the pursuing?

What do you all think?


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LisaBrandNew
Member
Member # 30522
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

Lionness - can you clarify what you mean by "but now I think its the pursuing?"

Is his behavior (increased distancing) triggering "analysis paralysis" (a form of pursuit).

PA/WSs will act all kinds of ways (blaming, projecting, distancing, etc). Why do you care?


Finally living the life I was meant to live.

Posts: 806 | Registered: Dec 2010
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

Lioness, that is really hurtful and frustrating. Are you doing the 180 and taking care of yourself? Live your best life and let him do whatever it is that he does-- you can't control or change him, only he can do that. So hard but so necessary.... Good luck.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

Hi Boston girl

Yea I finally had to throw my hands up and give up.

Around halloween he asked to reconcile a week before thanksgiving he turns everything against me. "I wasn't working" "his family is looking out foR him".

I realized he wanted the Easy way let's haVe sex and say sorry and get apt together. All will be well for him save money and have all access to dd.

Then his depression and his embarassment trumped what I am going through.

Its just so distracting.

I told him to leave me alone.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 9:35 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

Lisabrandnew

I used the wrong term I meant is this his way of trying to get me to ask about the counseling and get me to ask if we were still going to reconcile since he was going to counseling?

Since finding this group I'm more aware but still learning.I plan on reading books on pa /codependency in the next week.

Unfortunately I still have to deal with him because we have a 2 year old daughter.

And I shouldn't care but I'm still working on detaching and finding myself.

[This message edited by LionessQn76 at 10:02 PM, December 10th (Saturday)]


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
survivor_kh
Member
Member # 33738
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

I too came from an overly aggressive family. STBX family was always saving face. I remember from the beginning telling him I didn't want to feel like I was his mom. It took going to MC for me to realize how enraged I had become at the fact that I had to set every rule, every boundary, spell every single detail out about what was acceptable behavior. Before therapy he would play "you said I couldn't do that, not this" as therapy went on I remember I told our therapist I was sick of babysitting him. I didn't need to tell him what I needed...he should've known by now. I was getting fed up. He pretended to straighten up. That lasted a month. Then it went down down downhill. I asked for a divorce 2 weeks before DDay. I didn't even think he would agree and that crushed me. He seemed so relieved that I said it for him. Douchebag. Im so much better than that. I don't need to be told what to do. I'm a grown woman and act accordingly!

[This message edited by survivor_kh at 10:37 PM, December 10th (Saturday)]


Surviving is important, thriving is elegant- Maya Angelou

you is kind, you is smart, you is important


Posts: 297 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Indiana
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 10:59 PM, December 10th (Saturday)

I realize the same thing always making him look good. Did you pay the rent before you buy your mommy a computer chair"? Let's get dd her carseat why are you waiting when she needs it now.

It was just too much and I thought I was being pushy


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, December 11th (Sunday)

Excellent article on gaslighting...

I found this on the Huffington Post, author is Yashar Ali. Originally posted at his blog: The Current Conscience - www.currentconscience.com

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html

A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not "Crazy"

You're so sensitive. You're so emotional. You're defensive. You're overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You're crazy! I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor? You're so dramatic. Just get over it already!

Sound familiar?

If you're a woman, it probably does.

Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said?

When someone says these things to you, it's not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling -- that's inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, "Calm down, you're overreacting," after you just addressed someone else's bad behavior, is emotional manipulation, pure and simple.

And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It's patently false and unfair.

I think it's time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation, and we need to use a word not found in our normal vocabulary.

I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a term often used by mental health professionals (I am not one) to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they're crazy.

The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergman's husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergman's character reacts to it, he tells her she's just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victim's perception of him or herself.

Today, when the term is referenced, it's usually because the perpetrator says things like, "You're so stupid," or "No one will ever want you," to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyer's character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergman's character into believing herself unhinged.

The form of gaslighting I'm addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.

Those who engage in gaslighting create a reaction -- whether it's anger, frustration, sadness -- in the person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings aren't rational or normal.

My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, "You're so sensitive. I'm just joking."

My friend Abbie works for a man who finds a way, almost daily, to unnecessarily shoot down her performance and her work product. Comments like, "Can't you do something right?" or "Why did I hire you?" are regular occurrences for her. Her boss has no problem firing people (he does it regularly), so you wouldn't know from these comments that Abbie has worked for him for six years. But every time she stands up for herself and says, "It doesn't help me when you say these things," she gets the same reaction: "Relax; you're overreacting."

Abbie thinks her boss is just being a jerk in these moments, but the truth is, he is making those comments to manipulate her into thinking her reactions are out of whack. And it's exactly that kind manipulation that has left her feeling guilty about being sensitive, and as a result, she has not left her job.

But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, "You're so sensitive," to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.

While dealing with gaslighting isn't a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.

And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.

Why?

Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men.

It's a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don't refuse our burdens as easily. It's the ultimate cowardice.

Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: It renders some women emotionally mute.

These women aren't able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can't tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can't tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good.

When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, "Forget it, it's okay."

That "forget it" isn't just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. It's heartbreaking.

No wonder some women are unconsciously passive aggressive when expressing anger, sadness, or frustration. For years, they have been subjected to so much gaslighting that they can no longer express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.

They say, "I'm sorry," before giving their opinion. In an email or text message, they place a smiley face next to a serious question or concern, thereby reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings.

You know how it looks: "You're late :)"

These are the same women who stay in relationships they don't belong in, who don't follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live.

Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as "crazy" has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general.

From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration.

Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, "Oh, about how crazy we are?"

Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves.

As far as I am concerned, the epidemic of gaslighting is part of the struggle against the obstacles of inequality that women constantly face. Acts of gaslighting steal their most powerful tool: their voice. This is something we do to women every day, in many different ways.

I don't think this idea that women are "crazy," is based in some sort of massive conspiracy. Rather, I believe it's connected to the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis. And gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as "crazy."

I recognize that I've been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friends--surprise, surprise). It's shameful, but I'm glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it.

While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. It's about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion.

When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions.

When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, "The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn."

So for many of us, it's first about unlearning how to flicker those gaslights and learning how to acknowledge and understand the feelings, opinions, and positions of the women in our lives.

But isn't the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women's opinions don't hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn't quite as legitimate?


Yashar will be soon releasing his first short e-book, entitled, A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not Crazy -- How We Teach Men That Women Are Crazy and How We Convince Women To Ignore Their Instincts. If you are interested and want to be notified when the book is released, please click https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGFINmRVRzc4Uno3WlhDNUFUaURGR0E6MQ to sign-up.

[This message edited by heartbroken_kk at 12:25 PM, December 11th (Sunday)]


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 10:03 PM, December 11th (Sunday)

These are the same women who stay in relationships they don't belong in who don't follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live.

Wow that's me alright.
Now I named and claimed it time to make a Change in me. now.

How do you learn how to express anger? I just push everything down.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
survivor_kh
Member
Member # 33738
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, December 11th (Sunday)

Lioness my IC has helped me tons in that area. Its one of the reasons why STBX and I really started to argue over everything out loud. I was sick of his crap and I started to unleash on him unapologetically. The best thing I did for myself was going to counseling. I talked about my anger a lot and it felt amazing to hear from my therapist that my feelings are normal, that I don't overreact...STBX was always underreacting and trying to control me. Now when I feel angry I repeat in my head "its normal to feel angry" or "I have every right to feel angry because of this". Sounds simple but you start to believe in yourself after awhile.

[This message edited by survivor_kh at 11:40 PM, December 11th (Sunday)]


Surviving is important, thriving is elegant- Maya Angelou

you is kind, you is smart, you is important


Posts: 297 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Indiana
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, December 12th (Monday)

heartbroken, that is a GREAT article--thanks for sharing it.

About expressing anger--this was a big deal for us too. I was very angry about his passiveness and withdrawal, and of course my anger only made him withdraw further. What a vicious circle.

Our first round of MC did a really good job of identifying the issue but nothing to fix it. Every session would end with him saying "I know I need to step up", and then he wouldn't actually follow through on whatever he said he'd do. I just got madder and madder and it was a disaster.

With further IC I realized a lot of my anger was redirected sadness. My husband has also never, I mean NEVER, been able to deal with my sadness. I mean, not even able to give me a hug and say, "I'm sorry that happened, I hope you feel better." Regardless of its cause--when I have lost out on jobs I wanted, or a friend had a serious health threat, he couldn't support me at all. Literally, perfect strangers (on the bus, over the internet) would console me more than my husband ever would or could.

This time around in MC, this dynamic has started to change. He has worked hard on staying present in the face of my sadness and it's made a world of difference.

He is starting to understand how much of my anger was due to a combination of feeling sad/abandoned because I had to deal with more than my share of the responsibilities in our marriage--there were so many things I did because I knew he wouldn't, and I knew he wouldn't help me even if I asked--and then knowing that it was futile even to show my sadness, that he didn't care enough about me to respond to my sadness either.

God, writing that out in plain English makes it so clear how valid my dissatisfaction was...

He is finally starting to understand how much he took for granted and how his behavior elicited the anger he claims to hate so much.

I still have a lot of things I'm angry about and he's doing a much better job about staying present for that too.

The absolute kicker of it all? He never was able to comfort me in my sadness, even through our 5 year courtship. I remember explaining to him time and time again why it meant so much to me, and he never took it seriously, or at least seriously enough to really act on. This was 15+ years ago...our marriage would have gone so, so much differently if he had actually taken that to heart all those years ago.

I wish I could go back and tell my 25 year old self what a red flag that was. I remember wrestling with this issue when I was trying to decide about getting married. I remember finally deciding, I 'll keep talking about it and he'll start doing it because he'll realize how much it means to me. Maybe I was right, but it took 13 years and the total nuclear meltdown of our marriage for that message to start to sink in.

If I only knew then what I know now... a guy with a mild personality is not necessarily a nice guy.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, December 12th (Monday)

Thanx ladies for responding as soon as I have insurance I'm definitely going to IC.

I need to learn to let the angries out and I need learn assertiveness training.

Heartbroken this article made me cry last night. Being physically and emotionally abused as a child made me a people pleaser and made push down my anger, and have no self esteem,not to mention how intimidated I am by angry women. I finally have to face this. I am not reaching my potential and I deserve more and I can do better.

Bostongirl

I had the opposite my X was very consoling and loving during my time of need. Until his mother interfered in our relationship after dd was born 2 yrs ago. Then the affair while I had untreated ppd happen. Now it is chore for him to comfort me which hurts me even more considering our closeness in the past.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, December 12th (Monday)

My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, "You're so sensitive. I'm just joking."
This could be me...just replace Anna with my name and replace her weight with whatever H feels like targeting that day...wow...great article...thank you for sharing...


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
MammaMia
Member
Member # 34030
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, December 12th (Monday)

How can you tell someone is passive aggressive? What are the tactics? I am trying to understand if that is what my husband is like. Please help!!!!


And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive.But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.”

Posts: 844 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Somewhere in the South
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 3:18 AM, December 13th (Tuesday)

Mommamia

This site is recommended in earlier posts.
http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

And reading the rest of posts helped me too others have suggested books on this matter.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, December 14th (Wednesday)

That is a great article. I have read all the books cited at the end of it and they are good too. The Terry Real books in particular are great and his book The New Rules of Marriage is the one that has made the biggest difference in my MC with my husband--we specifically looked for a counselor who was trained in/uses that framework, which is basically like a playbook for having a good relationship.

Another really good description of passive-aggressiveness is in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-Anger-Eleven-Common/dp/1572244488/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323909122&sr=8-1
The chapter on "Sneaky Anger" is EXACTLY what it is like living with my husband.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, December 16th (Friday)

Thank you heartbroken..

I have been searching SI all day today - for my "ah-ha" moment when reading posts, and this is it!

I learned early on that expressing my emotions made my H uncomfortable, so I began to keep them inside and slowly began to feel ashamed of them.

When I would show my feelings, my H would shut me down by saying..."oh, you're being over-sensitive", "you're really taking it the wrong way", or "you shouldn't feel that way, I'm just kidding around"....

It's so dismissive and demeaning to be told you shouldn't feel the way you feel!
You begin to question yourself and lose your spontaneity...

My H doesn't tend to give value to my opinions about things either, interpreting my differences of opinion as "not supporting him" or "deliberately going against him".

Not true.

As I learn more about P/A relationships, and with awareness and effort, I am becoming less intimidated, and increasingly dare to keep my own power.
It's a long, hard road. My H is responding, and we are beginning, just beginning, to change the dynamics.

I read something once that went something like this...

Truly healthy people:
Feel what they feel, not what they are "supposed" to feel
Think what they think, not what they are "supposed" to think
See what they see, not what they are "supposed" to see
Believe what they believe, not what they are "supposed" to believe
Like what they like, not what they are "supposed" to like
Dream what they dream, not what they are "supposed" to dream...

I used to have it on my fridge -

SI is an amazing resource for us, isn't it??? I'm grateful..


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, December 17th (Saturday)

Yes I found my ah ha moment when I was reading.

So glad I found this site.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 6:37 PM, December 21st (Wednesday)

Hi SandT,

That's a very powerful piece-- thanks for sharing it. Lots of wisdom...


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, December 30th (Friday)

Going to check out "The New Rules of Marriage" ...

THANK YOU, everyone, for your wisdom and willingness to share


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
Alonelyagain
Member
Member # 32820
Default  Posted: 9:53 PM, December 30th (Friday)

BH here. It seems that most p/a H's described in this thread are WH, not BH.

Here's my story: Shortly after DD, I was visiting other divorce support sites, and came across a similar thread on p/a, and I read all of the linked articles on p/a. I literally said "holy shit, that's me" out loud more than once. This knowledge then led me to go to an IC. My IC told me that p/a was easy to cure once the person realizes and admit to themselves that they engage in this behavior. Essentially, in my case, the cure is to be willing to engage in a disagreement with WW (usually prolonged), rather than "suffering in silence" in order to avoid a confrontation. In my case, I was raised in a family where confrontations were always avoided.

For the wives on this thread, IMO I don't think you will be able to change your H's p/a behavior until they admit to themselves that they are p/a. Being men and p/a, they are more likely to do so if they read an article themselves, as opposed to being told so by you.


Posts: 91 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: New Jersey
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, December 31st (Saturday)

Hi, Alonelyagain,

Welcome to the discussion. It's absolutely terrific that you recognized that pattern in yourself and are working to change-- rare and wonderful.

You are absolutely right that change comes from within and trying to get another person to change is difficult if not impossible. My H is finally starting to get it and to change, but truly, what finally got him to open his eyes about it was encountering some of the same harmful and frustrating behaviors from his aging parents when he was trying to care for them in their failing health. I finally was able to point out to him how his parents were treating him in the same ways he had treated me and the light started to go on. Wish us luck, we have a long way to go.

By the way, I am the WS in the marriage. Absolutely, my husband's p/a led to a severe breakdown in our marriage--he would not and could not engage in any discussion of concerns or problems in our marriage, just kept withdrawing further. After many years of this. I just looked outside the marriage for affection and sex, which were long absent from our M and which my H appeared more than willing to give up forever. I hasten to add, I take full responsibility for my extramarital involvements--but I would have much rather had that connection and intimacy with the man I married, and his p/a nature meant that asking for what I wanted guaranteed I wouldn't get it.

It's ugly stuff. Glad you're getting past it!


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
LisaReg
Member
Member # 22825
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, January 1st (Sunday)

I've been researching this as well. I have after YEARS come to the conclusion that my FWH is definitely PA. This is the information I have found that just sealed the deal for me:
DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.

*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.

*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.

*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.

*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.

*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.

*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.

*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.

*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.

*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.

*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.

A passive-aggressive man won't have every single one of these traits, but he'll have many of them. He may have other traits as well, which are not passive-aggressive.

Symptoms Passive-Aggressive Personaliy
Symptoms include:
• Contradictory and inconsistent behavior—A person with this behavior pattern may appear enthusiastic to carry out others’ requests, but he purposely performs in a manner that is not useful and sometimes even damaging.
• Intentional avoidance of responsibility—Some behaviors that may be used to avoid responsibility include:
• Procrastination—to delay or postpone needlessly and intentionally
• Deliberate inefficiency—purposefully performing in an incompetent manner
• Forgetfulness
• Feelings of resentment toward others
• Stubbornness
• Argumentative, sulky, and hostile, especially toward authority figures
• Easily offended
• Resentful of useful suggestions from others
• Blames others
• Chronically impatient
• Unexpressed anger or hostility


BW (me)
WH(him)
"So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key." The Eagles

Posts: 916 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Anywhere USA
LisaReg
Member
Member # 22825
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, January 1st (Sunday)

After finding the info that I posted above, something in my head just clicked. My fwh has told me before that "I will not be told what to do." Yet, he won't do anything without being told. It could be weeks before he mows the lawn, but If I even mention that the grass is looking long, he just won't cut it. So freakin' frustrating.

I am in the process of S/D but we have financial issues to work out first. If I need to continue living with him for a while, I wanted information on how to keep myself sane while doing so. This info has opened up my eyes.

I have pretty much been doing 180 for 9 months now. I just live my life, and do what needs to be done for me and my son. Surprise, surprise, fwh has found a way to get some things done. I don't nag. Hell, I don't ask for anything. I just assume I'm on my own. It is amazing how much PA man can get done when left to his own devices.

Another thing that has always bothered me about PA man is that everything with him is on a need to know basis. He only gives information if asked. Guess what? I don't ask. He knows the things our son has going on, and when sports, music lessons, school activities are etc. I let hime know what I am doing out of common courtesy because it typically involves our son. That is it, nothing more. Amazing how much less stress If feel when I have no expectations. Hoping that doing this early will make the S/D go much more smoothly.

I hope this info might help someone else. I think I need to work on myself now and figure out why it took me so damn long to get it!

[This message edited by LisaReg at 1:24 PM, January 1st (Sunday)]


BW (me)
WH(him)
"So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key." The Eagles

Posts: 916 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Anywhere USA
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 8:40 AM, January 2nd (Monday)

Hi, LisaReg, and welcome. Very good to hear that you are stepping off the crazy train and I understand your relief completely.

It's really true that the P/A dance requires two partners... Hopefully now that you are changing your steps, your H will come to realize what is going on and how he needs to grow and change as well. But that's his job and only he can do it, and maybe he never will... In the meantime, take good care of yourself. Here's hoping for more positive change in the new year!


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, January 3rd (Tuesday)

Happy New Year P/A peeps!

So whats happening when they now go in the reverse, but to the obnoxious?? Meaning, I will stand up to get a cup of coffee and he will *spring up* and tell me he will get it....if I start to clean the kitchen he will *spring up* to tell me he will do it....etc...meaning, its not his idea, but when he "sees" me start to do something he rushes in to do it, like way obvious. What I mean to say is I can get up and get my own cup of coffee once in awhile, or empty the dishwasher or walk the dog...but he will get almost mad when I look at him weird, like why are you offering when I am already doing it?
Does this make sense to anyone?

As weird as this sounds, and I know I should be grateful, but it is ~~weird~~ to the point where it is overkill. And its getting worse. Like the more I just backed off and did not ask him to do anything he is almost going in the other direction to where it is a little manic is the best way I can say it.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, January 3rd (Tuesday)

Hi realitybites,
I know exactly what you mean. I think it's part of the process they are trying to hold up the "I'm an awesome guy" routine. See? What are you complaining about? I do dishes!!*insert sarcasm*
It is frustrating.


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, January 4th (Wednesday)

http://www.restartyourlife.info/?p=487

Please read this excellent article. I thought the woman was describing me!


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, January 13th (Friday)

Well he is now living with the ow because she is offering him a free room. Wth he has my baby over there with IT.

I'm so done its official he is a screw up waiting for a woman to to rescue him.

Really doesn't occur to him he needs to get a another job. Just go live with a woman.

I read living or loving a codependent man last night it really open my eyes to the dysfunction.

Edited misspelled rant lol

[This message edited by LionessQn76 at 11:23 AM, March 8th (Thursday)]


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, January 13th (Friday)

As weird as this sounds, and I know I should be grateful, but it is ~~weird~~ to the point where it is overkill.

realitybites, my H does this too...I don't want to seem unappreciative, but it's really NOT what I am looking for...
The overtures are appreciated on some level, but not in the way that really speaks my language, KWIM...

I can get my own coffee (nice to have the offer to bring it to me ONCE in a while, yes)
but it is no substitute for real, mature, communication and relationship building...which is where I'd much rather he put his efforts...


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
TeaLight
New Member
Member # 34586
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, January 19th (Thursday)

I recently discovered a webpage that outlines the "boomerang" relationship that is the result of living with a passive-aggressive man, and how it affects the spouse, profoundly!!

Everyone can be PA at times, but my WH has taken it to a new level.

The article is pretty long, but there are a few passages that really hit home for me:

The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger. He resists her in small ways setting up a pattern of frustration so that she gets to express the anger that he cannot.

Somehow, somewhere down the line in our "budding relationship" I agreed to be his adversary. I can recognize it now, but then, I had no idea what I was doing that would make him resist me so much.

The man who copes with conflict by not being there has strong conflict over dependency. He desperately wants attention but fears being swallowed up by the partner. He can't be alone and live without a woman in his life, but can't be with a partner emotionally. He's caught in a Catch 22 -- wanting affection but avoiding it because he fears it as his destruction. He resents feeling dependent on the woman so must keep her off guard. He makes his partner FEEL LIKE A NOTHING through his neglect or irritability but he keeps her around because he needs her. His script is ‘Be here for me, but don't come too close and don't burden me with your needs or expectations.'

It's the slow and painful eating away of my self-esteem that he fed on, over and over and over.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master in getting his partner to DOUBT HERSELF and FEEL GUILTY for questioning or confronting him.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three roles - - the Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes: the Blamer, the Bitch, and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship.

I slowly, but surely became all of these things, over time. And he used my anger against me, which in turn made me feel more and more guilty as time went by.

It was a trap that I had no way of getting out of. Even when I would change my "fighting style" or try to not fight and "discuss" instead, I was always met with more PA behavior.
It's a vicious circle that's very hard to break, especially if the PA man doesn't want to break it, and why would he???? He gets to avoid any and all responsibility for the problems in the relationship. It's a terrible way to live, though.

The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness.

Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression.

Reading this information has been very freeing for me.
I no longer feel that I am to blame for who he is.
He tried to blame me for ruining his life and sucking the spirit out of him, but he was sucking me dry, day after day after day.

I hope this helps anyone dealing with a PA man.
I have loads more info if anyone would like me to share.


OntheRocks and heartbroken_kk, your posts could have been written about my ex husband.

The big thing with PA is that recovery is unlikely unless the PA partner can see they have a problem and seeks help for themselves. Not a good prognosis for the majority of relationships I would think.


Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2012
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, January 24th (Tuesday)

yeah, count my H in here...so frustrating. My H possesses all but one of those traits...lucky me....


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
sad/madtothebone
Member
Member # 29150
Default  Posted: 5:15 PM, January 24th (Tuesday)

I have been reading tons about PA, but I am having a lot of trouble with finding practical advice on how to respond and deal with a PA spouse. I need a manual.


Feeling like I will never know the truth. Wondering if I can live without it or will it eat me up in the end?

Posts: 313 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: N. TX
NeverHadAChance
Member
Member # 30103
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, January 31st (Tuesday)

Oh my god. I thought I had been dealing with a narcissist all this time.

But this is it. this was my life for 10 years. Rescuing him, managing him, being told how I don't measure up in a "constructive way". He was frustrating on every level. It was like dealing with a willful child, but I was complicit in making him appear to be the perfect husband.


If you can't live without me, why aren't you dead yet?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BW, 32 - me
XWH, 32 - him
DDay 10/21/10
False R for 3 weeks
together 10 years, married 4 years
Divorced 8/30/2011


Posts: 624 | Registered: Nov 2010
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 6:48 AM, February 2nd (Thursday)

but I was complicit in making him appear to be the perfect husband.

^^This^^ is so true.

I worked so hard to prop him up so that I would not look bad. Then how DARE he betray me behind my back...its like I felt I had "made" him somewhat successful, not a screw up.

I sure worked hard to nail my own coffin didn't I? Crazy making stuff when you have to dig far enough to look at yourself in this P/A dance.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
let it be me
Member
Member # 29103
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, February 2nd (Thursday)

So for those of us on "the other side" of the relationship with a PA.....

How many of you recognize co-dependency in yourself?

My IC states it is a natural fit for a PA partner.

I've been co-dependent since FOREVER; abused since age 2 by family (molestation, physical and emotional) then jumped from one abusive adult relationship to my current marriage.....
Started IC in 1998; however, masking my true feelings even to my IC.
Didn't want anyone to know that I can't pull it off and take care of myself and everyone around me...

Just started being honest with my psych in October, as the PA relationship post A (with years of inch by inch mental growth for me) brought me to a place of "it is now or never - I cannot live this insanity anymore, I just cannot keep up the act anymore"....
Was Diagnosed with BiPolar I and immediately taken off AntiD's since they have been just adding fuel to the fire all these years. Started on Atypical AntiPsychotics and WOW! My mind CAN slow down!!!!

But I'm still Co-Dependent.... just able to make more CONSISTENT growth rather than two steps forward five steps back now!

eta - I DO notice that my slowly improving consistency is helping me towards changing MY role in the unhealthy back and forth of the boomerang relationship....

[This message edited by let it be me at 7:37 AM, February 2nd (Thursday)]


Me/BS/40~Him/fWH/42 Both in IC
MC put 'on hold' till my IC agrees
DD~07/19/10 R on hold till my IC agrees
BP1 DX 10/2011&Complex PTSD 7/1998
"There are no mistakes in tomorrow"

Posts: 337 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Eastern NC
dumped&replaced
Member
Member # 34288
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, February 13th (Monday)

Just tell me what you want me to do" puts the responsibility for the project on me, and sets up a situation where he can be the victim, the punished one, the one who has to do what his wife tells him to do. He can also do the job badly and then when I ask him to do it correctly, get angry at me because "he can't do anything right". He will do 90% of the job, then quit. Then it is up to me to finish the job, and he can sneer at me because "nothing he does is good enough, I can't be happy, I have to go in and change what he did".

wow, thank you. You pretty much summed up the relationship between me and STBXH in a nutshell...this was how we interacted for years. Best example - I worked part time when boys were little but when boys got to middle school I got a full time job. Asked him to help more with deciding meals/ grocery shopping..he went to grocery store once or twice but if I didn't give him a LIST (which I refused to do...planning meals and all the ingredients is almost as time consuming as actually shopping...oh and he didn't WANT me to do..."I got it")..he would come home with crap that would get thrown out cuz the boys wouldn't eat it...

By putting himself in the submissive role, he puts me in the dominant role. He puts me in a position where I have to manage him, I "control" him. Then he can lash out at me for being controlling, he can be angry at me for it. So he substitutes anger for a variety of underlying emotional states such as shame and low self image. The anger can be directed at ME, instead of shame being an emotion directed internally.

It has helped me so much to read this, you have no idea...I have been trying so hard to figure out what went wrong in our marriage and what my role in it was...what you describe here was basically the way we related all the time. The day before DDAY he actually said to me "I love you as the mother of my kids, but I don't LIKE you as a person, I don't LIKE you as a friend, you're so controlling it's like living with my mother".....those words have haunted me ever since...because anyone who really KNOWS me knows that I am so far from "controlling" it's not even funny...I have 2 girlfriends who both keep telling me "don't let (whoever/ another friend) push you around"... and my whole family knows I am just not that way....had a lightbulb moment tonight...my STBX had a family where emotions, divorces, bad things were never discussed. The primary goal was to appear to be perfect to the outside world (and within the home as well)...and now my STBXH hit middle age and went through a major midlife crisis, complete with the affair and the fancy car etc...Our family ( me and my boys) are the casualty of that.

I finally found the forum in "I can relate" I can relate to - thank you!!!!


Dday: 8/22/11
Divorce final: 10/6/12 - my 22nd wedding anniversary
Married: 21 years, together 23 years
BS: 51
WS: 47
2 awesome sons, ages 19 & 20

Posts: 198 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: PA
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, February 18th (Saturday)

Eureka!

This thread has made so much sense to me. I have been calling wh a PA for years with out understand my roll.

Like so many it sounds like they are writing about my wh. More reading for me.

I am so thankfully someone put me onto this site.


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
shangri-la
Member
Member # 31971
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, February 18th (Saturday)

I'm here, and what I'm reading is SUCH a relief....thank you!!!!!

one of the PA things I have struggled with for years is that xwh wouldn't tell me about big decisions, or even little ones if he thought I would have any resistance to them. Of course he'd go ahead with the plan so I would find out and then it would be too late, my resistance to spending hundreds of dollars on a luxury item when we owed rent for example was not the issue - in his mind - what was then the issue would be that I was restrictive and controlling which is why he didn't tell me.

Ironically, if he HAD included me in the decisions, there would have been occasions where I'd have not resisted at all.


M 7years
WH 35
me, BW 34
dd 2/9/2011
separated
"Time shall unfold what plighted cunning hides:
Who cover faults, at last shame them derides."

Posts: 556 | Registered: Apr 2011
heart_in_a_blend
Member
Member # 24191
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, February 18th (Saturday)

All this is screaming "immaturity". I wonder if men fit this category more than woman. (just a question) Maybe women just notice it more and are always trying to figure out why things happen and how can we make it better.

I sick of trying to figure out all the crapy my husband does and doesn't do. But that doesn't mean I won't stop trying.


In life, much of what one grieves one never had.

Posts: 3036 | Registered: May 2009
roccodom
Member
Member # 19714
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, February 25th (Saturday)

Now, when I came along, I actually treated him as an individual person who had a right to his own thoughts and feelings and expected him to be an adult and be responsible for them. He, on the other hand, took my healthy assertiveness as demands and then "got back at me" by not saying how he felt about something and secretly resenting me and judging me. Man, it's a bitch to try to deal with passive-agression. Like walking in traffic blindfolded. You may hear noise but you never know when and what hit you.

I could have written this.


BS - me (45) WS - him (45)
married 16 yrs (DS 11yrs, DD 9yrs)
#1 PA - DDay 12/97
#2 PA DDay 5/08
#3 PA DDay 2/12
Trying R
Buddhism teaches that a craving for things outside ourselves causes an unhappy and pointless search for security.


Posts: 789 | Registered: May 2008 | From: MO
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, February 28th (Tuesday)

This whole PA thing is my husband in a nutshell.

Last night when we do the phone calls and texts after he finishes work in a different time zone I handled things differently with amazing results.

I did not contact him. He texted asking what where we doing. I just said same old same old. So he waits a bit then goes No talkies then.
It turns out he was having a drink in the camp mess. Starts to try to wind me up with the Aren't I allowed a drink after work (hardly ever drinks) and instead of reacting, I just said I was just waiting until you texted and let me know you were available to talk with me. I was calm and serene and he couldn't cope.
Normally he doesn't say much in phone calls. Gets/makes me do all the talking and grunts occasionally.
Anyway you should have heard the chitchat coming from him. I was floored to be honest.
I didn't try to change him, that wont work, but I changed my behaviour and reaction.
Will be interesting to see how this continues to work and to learn new ways of dealling with him.


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
alxbrn1
New Member
Member # 34889
Exclaimation  Posted: 2:05 AM, March 3rd (Saturday)

Holy crap!!! I just mentioned to my counselor that our relationship is very passive-aggressive today. We are at a constant push-pull. The information about what PA men do to the women around them is us to a key. I used to be the life of the party, his constant "loneliness" and not fitting in has depleted my bodaciousness. I no longer know how to have fun because I was constantly made to feel bad (though not sure if on purpose) because he didn't know. Then I tried for years to pull him into the middle of things and tell him small things he could do to try to fit in better. Then got blamed for it not working. He never really puts effort into our relationship. He does things so small that they are microscopic in nature and no one can see them, even with the Hubble Telescope and then says I just didn't see it. I do things that are so blantly obvious so there is never a way to say that I didn't try. Whether its fixing his first cup of coffee or offering to turn off his bedside lamp. He says I am trying too hard, but jeez at least I am trying. Thanks so much for confirming what I already suspected. You guys rock!!!

Posts: 10 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Louisiana
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 7:44 AM, March 3rd (Saturday)

I agree this thread was a lightbulb moment for me.
It is already making a difference to me in how I relate to my husband.

As I see it, no matter what happens to my marriage, if I dont deal with my side of the relationship dynamic then i will only attract another PA man into my life.

So I need to look at how I can change.


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 8:17 AM, March 3rd (Saturday)

Just rambling here is this P/A post, but to continue on the thought of US learning to not react to a P/A:

Just had my favorite older sister in town for a month. We all had a very good time and did not get too much on each others nerves! Ha! But we talked alot about our father and other family members and you truly learn so much more about how we reacted as children to disfunction when we grew up. It was very enlightening to me.

I learned more of how I tried to make things OK around my life as I knew the outside world must see how bad it is. So I duplicated this with my now H. I have always tried to make him look better then he is, although I try to mask it as a "loving partner". What I did was enable him to not learn what he needed to do because he now just accepted that I would do it and since he never had to he sees me now NOT wanting to do some of these things as me being mean.

And thus the push pull dynamic continues.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
alxbrn1
New Member
Member # 34889
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, March 3rd (Saturday)

I too took it as a big AHA moment. I come from the divorced family of an alcoholic father. My H is a lot like my father (the good ways) but I now see how I am acting like my mother treated my father. Totally codependent. I had mentioned to my counselor on Friday at our first session that I thought my H was passive aggressive. She didn't say much but now i want to inquire more so that I can get help changing my reactions. All of this is so new to me.

Posts: 10 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Louisiana
quedagh
Member
Member # 24195
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, March 4th (Sunday)

An idea- I did not read through the whole post but did read LisReg's list of identifying a P/A. Something struck me... and maybe it has been discussed already.

My eldest is being tested for ADD or ADHD. While researching this I ran across the symptoms of adult ADD and ADHD.

They were very very similar to LisaReg's list- almost exactly in some cases.

Perhaps this is a realm to consider when dealing with your spouse?


Divorced and safer, mostly.


Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2009 | From: Recovery Land
EmptyMind
New Member
Member # 35020
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, March 9th (Friday)

Well I just found a post that will occupy me for the entire day. This post has a lot of insight for me.

Posts: 1 | Registered: Mar 2012
MegM
Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 4:27 AM, March 20th (Tuesday)

bump


BS / fWS- me 41 (@ DDay)
WS / BS - him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 children (6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulde

Posts: 577 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, March 23rd (Friday)

bump

Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
GetEvenInAZ
Member
Member # 30891
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, March 26th (Monday)

Greetings, All!

I owe each and every one of you my deepest heartfelt THANK YOU!

This forum and everyone in it has saved (probably literally) my life!!

Found this Forum a couple weeks ago and have been in hard-core study mode since.

This is EXACTLY my XSO!!! I've been trying to figure out what his problem is since anything I do that is recommended ellicits the opposite response. We have 2 children, I have been trying to figure out how to just have a decent, generic conversation with him (like the "how is your day?" that you say to the Walmart clerk) without him spinning off somewhere completely different.

No matter what I do or say, its like I'm not even there and he is interacting with how I used to be over a year ago, before I found SI, my IC, support group etc.

I posted this in the DS forum, but would like to repost here for anyone like me who has heard these comments/had these exchanges but didn't know where they were coming from.

Last weeks rant, after I told him I wasn't going to listen to him criticize me and closed the door (gently!) in his face:
•I am tired of being your punching bag.
•Every day you are mean to me.
•You send me mean texts and emails.
oExample: My text to him declining an invite out: “Thank you, but I’m an asshole again." (I was being very much the asshole that day and don't socialize much when in that mood.)
•I’ve been nothing but nice to you the past year and a half. (when found out about latest skank whore)
•I don’t know why you’re so mean to me.
•I should listen to my pastor who says I don’t deserve to be treated like this.
•You are selfish.
•You are crazy.
•You are mean.
•You listen to whatever anyone else says to do.
•Woo woo (my IC) is crazy. Pastor xxx is crazy. Your friends are crazy. You’re all crazy.

Last nights text exchange. I started it because XSO kept saying he's been moved out over a year. (In actuality, I kicked him out Mothers Day weekend last year.) The initial question was true - very curious as to how long he thought he had been out of the house.

Me: Curiosity – How long do you think it has been since you moved out?
Him: Not like it matters, just gives u something to be mad at if I’m wrong. U will say 10 months but 11 off and on.
Me: Not mad, just curious.
Me: Funny how it seems my curiosity comes across as anger.
Him: Just answered not why ur still curious. I said it would give you another reason to get mad if wrong not that u r mad.
Him: U need to read what is written and not make inferences. Never said you were mad. Funny how u infer things that aren’t said.
Me: Interesting.
Him: Interesting that u used the word anger.
Me: Isn’t it tho? Guess should have used ur word of “mad” instead.
Him: Yes it is and yes u should have.
Me: How dare I use a synonym instead of ur word. Another example of how horrible I am. Ur lucky to be rid of me!
Him: Never said u were horrible nor happy to be rid of u. Once again inferences u make, not me.
Him: This is why I didn’t want to answer ur question, everything is so difficult with u. Nothing is ever easy or just a simple question.
Him: Going to bed. Good night!!

I know I shouldn't poke the PA bear, but just couldn't help myself!


Me: BW (44)
now xH (44)
20 yrs, 2 wonderful kids, and up to 5 - make it 6 DDays

Posts: 248 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: gilbert AZ
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, March 26th (Monday)

^^^
YES YES YES
They twist your words around constantly. The ambiguous meanings, not really saying anything.

It makes me completely beserk.

Ever since I found this website and these posted I have researched passive-aggressive extensively. They are the king of excuses when they don't want to do something.

Most recently, I heard thru a mutual friend that OW was whining about how XH will not propose to her. She is 36, wants to settle down and get married. ( ) XH tells her that until the drama with me dies down (what drama? we are divorced now!) he cannot commit to her. What a load of bologna. He just got out of one marriage. Why would he want to jump back into another? But rather than take responsibility he blames the ex-wife. Nice!!


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
GetEvenInAZ
Member
Member # 30891
Default  Posted: 6:07 AM, March 27th (Tuesday)

This just can't be good!

Last night XSO actually said most of the above again (and more!) while our youngest (18) was in the other room and could hear everything!

As far as I can recall, he has always been careful not to say this crap in front of other people, but now lets it all out with our youngest listening!

The mask seems to be slipping and he seems to be loosing some of his self-control.

My gut is telling me this is a VERY bad thing, and the gut is never wrong. Thoughts? Advice?


Me: BW (44)
now xH (44)
20 yrs, 2 wonderful kids, and up to 5 - make it 6 DDays

Posts: 248 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: gilbert AZ
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 7:15 AM, March 27th (Tuesday)

Geteven, sorry I cant offer any advice.

Our counsellor has identified WH as having very deeply buried anger. He was saying that you cant bury one emotion without supressing them all, like anger. WH cant express affection if he cant express anger. I can see this is effecting our 11 yr old too.
I just hope he can learn to express his emotion/anger in an appropriate way.

[This message edited by scissorhands at 7:16 AM, March 27th (Tuesday)]


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
confused82402
Member
Member # 34616
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, March 27th (Tuesday)

WOW! I found myself nodding my head as I read through this forum. My husband has so many PA traits!

How do you deal with a PA. Right now I think he may be "punishing" me. He won't tell me whats wrong and is pretty much giving me the silent treatment.

How do you handle that? I usually get frustrated and angry but from what I'm reading that almost feeds into their behavior.


Me- BW
Him - WH
Dday - 1/16/2012

~Honey, don't try to make sense out of nonsense...you'll drive yourself crazy in the process ~ my momma :-)


Posts: 507 | Registered: Jan 2012
GetEvenInAZ
Member
Member # 30891
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, March 29th (Thursday)

Hi confused82402!

I'm still learning the best way to deal with the PA XSO myself, but I've learned several things the past year - and especially the last few weeks - that have saved my sanity.

I don't initiate!!! I don't initiate conversations about anything other than kids/finances/house. I don't ask what's wrong, how he's doing, etc.

I'm trying hard not to respond or defend myself to his outrageous comments. Try to keep my responses to "uh huh", "so you say", "i see", etc.

Study! I read and study all I can regarding PA and controlling behavior in general. It's comforting to have a name to give to all his various tactics and schemes and at least guess at the source of his comments/behavior (which isn't me!).

Check in with my SI friends! This site has been THE BEST source of info and support I've found.

Best of luck to you confused82402!


Me: BW (44)
now xH (44)
20 yrs, 2 wonderful kids, and up to 5 - make it 6 DDays

Posts: 248 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: gilbert AZ
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, March 30th (Friday)

Ugh! I've just recently tapped into this PA with my SO. He's diabetic and has some other minor health issues! I am so frustrated and not sure what to do next! I have now found myself blowing him off when oridinarily I'd be trying to get him to engage in say conversation! I know I need to get out but he helps me pay the bills and I just bought a new car! I am smarter and know this isn't right for me but dammit already!!!


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 1:55 AM, April 1st (Sunday)

At this stage I am not planning to leave my PA husband. I am noticing small changes in him already. Its so hard because I consider it to be a psychological problem.

I know that if with a bit of time I dont see him making changes then I wont stay forever. I deserve to be content in life and living with a man that is PA isn't going to provide that. So in someways I am just running with it and see how it goes...

The realisation that your husband has a a psychological disorder is a big one. And its like of like a functional disorder. Functional for everyone but me!

[This message edited by scissorhands at 1:57 AM, April 1st (Sunday)]


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, April 3rd (Tuesday)

Hi eVeryone.

I have stopped asking any personal questions to XSO. I do not give advice or call to be part of his life.

I noticed that is has worked with him being more respectful and also to initiate some every day decisions.

Its slow going but its going.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, April 5th (Thursday)

Wow yesterday x picked up daughter I was late and apolgized and I left for work.few moments later I get a text telling me he wasn't mad that I was late but he was tired and stressed. My response ok I get it.

I get a few about how he failed and it seems to late to change.

I don't respond but tell him "well I guess it didn't work out as you planned?" His response nope.

This pissed me off he just doesn't get that he has turned my world upside down and he still minimizes the pain with nope and "sorry for the pain I caused you, having dd go back and forth and finally going and doing what I want".

I didn't bother responding after that "going and doing what you want" was him cheating and lying and throwing us out the home. Wow just wow.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
promisesandbless
New Member
Member # 32500
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, April 5th (Thursday)

Just found this forum a couple of weeks ago and have been reading, reading and reading. It all finally makes sense! I'm actually NOT insane! I want to weep with gratitude for you people.

I have been with my husband for 25 years and am ready to throw in the towel. Nothing is EVER his fault, he won't make any kind of decisions, we can't have any kind of conversation because my words get twisted and we always end up in an argument, he criticizes me at every turn and on and on and on.

Off to do some more reading and make some decisions on whether I want to keep putting up with the crazy making or move on.

Thank you everyone!


Posts: 7 | Registered: Jun 2011
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 9:49 PM, April 8th (Sunday)

Promisesandbless,

you are not crazy etc... its just crazy situation to be in.

My husband is like a textbook and I guess I am too, he is not alone.

I used to joke that he was passive agressive and I was agressive passive. To me this is not just about his behaviour its about changing BOTH OUT BEHAVIOUR and relationship dynamics.

WH hasn't quite got it yet but he has changed in small ways. Starting to be more assertive and even arguing back.

I want to see him learn to express his anger in appropriate ways.

We both have to relearn our ways... very challenging.

He is also being much more affectionate with daughter 11 and myself. This is a indication of the effects small changes make.

But its hard to change in your forties..

[This message edited by scissorhands at 9:53 PM, April 8th (Sunday)]


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
Honest1
Member
Member # 29976
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, April 8th (Sunday)

I was just ready to log out and turn in for the night when I saw this thread. I glanced through these but not all of the 16 pages.

Most of the passive-aggressive relationships seems to involve passive-aggressive in men from what I have read.

How many WS are women whom are passive-aggressive? It seems to certainly explains some behaviors of my WW in our relationship over the years.


BS 49
WW 47
SPa May 3rd 2010
D-day Oct 6th 2010 WS asked for R
D-day2 Oct 17th 2010 WS breaks NC
2 Kids ages 5 & 8
Separated 11/07/2010

Posts: 135 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Midwest
Honest1
Member
Member # 29976
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, April 9th (Monday)

That what I thought


BS 49
WW 47
SPa May 3rd 2010
D-day Oct 6th 2010 WS asked for R
D-day2 Oct 17th 2010 WS breaks NC
2 Kids ages 5 & 8
Separated 11/07/2010

Posts: 135 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Midwest
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, April 23rd (Monday)

So yesterday we were at an event lets just say...I had family members down. This event went on longer then thought so as the day went on I knew I had to get home to make sure our dog got let out and also fed as we were all going to go out to eat. My H was in a different area of the event, I called him when it was done to let him know I was going to run home, let the dog out, feed the dog and also I wanted to "freshen" up before we went out to eat and could he take the family members back to their hotel room??? Which by the way was 2 minutes down the road and on the way....

He freaked, did this crazy thing of saying HE would go, don't we want to take one car? Don't I want to go with him? And much more, waving his arms, making a drama issue where he "stormed" away from me....it was WEIRD. All I did was call him to say I wanted to run home to freshen up quickly before dinner and he made a fool of himself and also stomped off maybe to make me look bad...don't know. But it was stupid. I was left with my family members looking at me like what just happened??? They were here all weekend and he was great.

I guess with P/A's it just still comes out...I asked him to DO something (very simple) and he all of a sudden just imploded and screwed it all up.

Sad to say I still deal with this.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
disgust
Member
Member # 34200
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, April 23rd (Monday)

OntheRocks- That is my story. I feel like I'm slowly dying.

[This message edited by disgust at 1:42 PM, April 23rd (Monday)]


Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2011
nordicbabe
Member
Member # 35419
Default  Posted: 12:55 AM, April 24th (Tuesday)

Haven't yet read through this entire thread but did go the Angries site and wow, this is my WH to a bloody T.

I've just sent the link to my therapist, asking that she read it before our session later this week so we can discuss it. I should be out jogging but this has gotten my attention more than anything I've read since dday.

This is what I've been dealing with for years and didn't realize it. I just thought I was an inadequate bitch.


Posts: 1468 | Registered: Apr 2012
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, April 27th (Friday)

My WH is also PA. I could write a novel about the details, but I'll spare you.

#1 My PA WH plays the calm, rarely upset, superior one. He rarely shows he is angry, and he pushes me with his mind games until I am livid. Then his game is to use my anger and his (phony) calm demeanor to try to make him look right and me wrong (or crazy.)

#2 My PA WH always trys to be funny, lighthearted in general with our family. He like an ostrich when there is a problem with the children. Only since his A has he begun being more assertive on his own. But he still has the same, basic personality.

#3 He is not extroverted, but tends to be quiet, but friendly. He knows how to schmooze and make people think he is interested in them without going overboard. He only is extroverted when others are having an intense or serious conversation. He rarely adds to the conversation, but remains silent until he comes up with a pun or a joke using something someone else has said. Then he throws his joke bomb, everyone laughs and the conversation ends right there, because everyone was caught off guard, and no one wants to pick up the conversation where it left off before the joke.

If I could turn back time, and had known about PA and what the signs are.....except that together we brought 4 lives into this world that I cherish...our wonderful children.

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 9:12 AM, April 28th (Saturday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 5:05 AM, April 28th (Saturday)

I purchased two books and are in the process of reading them so will review them in my own amature fashion soon.
Really having a negative day today... but will get through it.
Life goes on and then you realise that you would do things different if you could get a do over.


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, April 28th (Saturday)

Scissors,

Boy do I feel you on that one. If only I had known what it was when I met SO, I'd have such a different behavior pattern now. I look back and see all those "confusing"'scenarios that I now can piece together! I just read living with the passive aggressive man and wow, I could have written EXACT situations and put his name in the story! The biggest problem for me is that my needs never get met and I am so lonely!

I empathize with you. It's such a sad thing to be in love with this personality!

Very down today!!


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
scissorhands
Member
Member # 34831
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, April 29th (Sunday)

2kdsandadog (and any other poster), I think that book is one of them I am reading but must check.

Yes I am tired of getting nothing in return and no emotional support. He refuses to help with the budgets or any decision making.

And sometimes its such a upside down world we inhabit. If I took to heart everything I would just be so bitter and heart broken.

I made the decision that I was not going to become bitter or sour. That would be the final and ultimate betrayal to myself.

My mother feels angry at hearing my husbands voice on the phone. But I forgive him. Dont get me wrong I am still angry but angry is different to bitter and sour. I just say no one is perfect and time will sort it all out.

Yes I would love to walk away but we have had an awesome life together and I do enjoy him when things are good. Also do you walk away from him because he has a personality disorder?

I would feel so guilty leaving.

Our marriage counsellor told me privately that husband is very vulnerable to infidality. But I always had that in my mind that he was weak to flattery.

Too complicate matters he is away at work for four out of five weeks in a camp situation in a town with it all laid on to part high income men from their money.

I am living overseas and no family and one self absorbed friend (gosh thats sounds hard) who is involved with her own life as it should be. No support and a aspergers daughter home schooled. Also I am unwell and get extremely fatigued and carrying it all myself.

There is a part of me that wants to walk. I deserve to be content, something that is hard to achieve in a passive agressive marriage.

Sorry for the long post.

BUT I feel a couple of months out that I am finally seeing things and getting a handle on my thoughts. And there are two different trains of thought running.

[This message edited by scissorhands at 10:37 PM, April 29th (Sunday)]


DDay 12/02/2011
WH signed up for sleazy dating sites while working away for a month at a time. Discovered before any physical contact was made.

Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2012
beingmiranda
Member
Member # 32519
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, May 2nd (Wednesday)

Hi.
So I have been doing a whole lot of reading.
I find that PA's can also be Narcissist. I think this is true with my XH. What are your experiences?


Me: now 38
Him: up and left for OW
OW: old maid mid thirties with biological clock ticking, desparate for a man.
Divorced the cheater - 8/2011
Married the most AMAZING man - 10/2013

Posts: 783 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: NJ
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, May 6th (Sunday)

Since reading the "Passive Aggressive Man", so many things have become so clear to me. I've changed my dance DRASTICALLY and am getting the strong resistance as a result! These men strive for overall control, but acquire it ever so subtlety. My SO is an arrogant, selfish man who is so wounded and little boyish underneath! Because we knew each other in high school, I call him on his shit and it really fucks with his head! Overall, he's a good man and brings no drama into my life. I came from a marriage of extreme drama so not havin to go back there is a BLESSING. I do know this.. the closer I try to get to him, the more scared he becomes. I just haven't quite decided if this is what I really want for my future!! I absolutely love his kids and mother, and the feeling is mutual!

Ugh,,, is that grass really greener?

[This message edited by 2kidsandadog at 3:16 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)]


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)

I read a little of the book

Toxic Men: 10 Ways to Identify, Deal with, and Heal from the Men Who Make Your Life Miserable (Kindle Edition)
Glass Lillian

omg its a must read and I plan to buy it bc it gives advice how to deal with "whiny erupting volcanoe" paraphrasing.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)

This last 2wks I am really have embraced the end of this relationship.I have detached and I am glad he is moving. I hate that I have to send my dd to texas and split my time and now I have more strain having her on my own in nyc I'm looking forward to the challenge.

I just happen to bump into him today and I had to ask him what the arrangements were with dd. Really and I find out he is leaving on the 30. Wow I need to find daycare, new job and no healthcare after the 30 thanks a lot jackass.

I stayed focused on finance and dd. Though I wanted to insult him and point out his complete failures and call him on his disorder.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, May 23rd (Wednesday)

Wow its amazing how the descriptiion fits so many of these men\or women.

I'm glad I'm not wth my ex but I still have to coparent thank goodness for family court, email and texts and the state of texas to put distance btw us.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, May 28th (Monday)

How is your pa partner as a parent?

I know ex was very uncomfortable around older children and I see he is starting to detach from dd3 these last couple of months.

I know her talking and tatrums make him extremely uncomfortable.

How do you all coparent with this type of personality.?


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, May 31st (Thursday)

holy crap HBH, are we married to the same man?

have any of you experienced your SO displaying PA behaviors with your kids? H & I have hit a rough patch and of course, he's being PA about it. Every now & then, he will take his aggression out on my DS 17. He is my son from my first M and he and & H haven't ever really bonded. DS has tried only to be rejected by H. DS would try and make a connection with H by asking questions. H couldn't handle it, so he imposed a 5 question limit on DS. At that point, DS gave up trying and left it alone. That was 9 years ago. He's now 17 and they have no relationship at all. DS respects H but that's as far as it goes. They barely speak, H has given him snippets of wisdom here & there, but I have mainly raised him. Most of their interaction usually comes in the form of criticism at the hands of H. I've had to push H to give DS any praise. He won't do it on his own.

So, H has this PA pattern where if he's upset with me, instead of coming to me, he'll take it out on DS. He did it again just the other night. DS was doing the dishes and H came in ranting about how he was wasting water (there weren't that many dishes so DS let the faucet run while he did them. H MUST fill up the sink with soapy water even if there's only a few dishes to be done. He's convinced his way is the ONLY way. He's even pushed me aside when he saw me doing the dishes because I wasn't doing it HIS way) and asked if he had $75 to pay the water bill and that he had until the end of the month to come up with the money. He then went on to say that he should start making DS pay some bills because he asks for so much shit. Really? He barely asks for shit and what he asks for isn't unreasonable. He's in the chamber choir at his high school and they went on a trip recently that set us back about $350. It was mandatory for school. It wasn't like it was a bunch of kids out fucking around. It was an activity where a damn grade was associated with it. Fuck you H. DS told me about it but asked me not to say anything to H about it. I was LIVID and wanted to confront him immediately but DS begged me to let it go so I did - at least in action. I can't get it out of my head. This isn't the first time and I suspect it won't be the last....Do I confront? He's so conflict avoidant that I doubt it'll do any good and then he'll use his P/A shit to make me think I'm the crazy one...

[This message edited by MissesJai at 11:52 AM, May 31st (Thursday)]


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, June 2nd (Saturday)

Ok this really gets me. I would confront him bc how can he only love "his child" but you are a family. And pa creates this lack of bonding and with the conflict avoidance it only make them distance themselves from the children.

Your son is old enough to learn about PA let him read the books and do the research so he knows its not him its all his simple ass step father.

Defensive is the best offense!


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, June 15th (Friday)

LionessQn76:
How is your pa partner as a parent?

He loves to be with the children. They think he is the nice guy and I am the meannie. I don't know how many times he has sent them to ask me if they could watch a movie, and I have said, "But it is so late to start a movie...." Then I am the bad person.

That exact thing happened tonight, for the nth time. H came home from work, and had 5 reports to write (which he didn't do yet.) I was doing home school record keeping and didn't have dinner finished, so he had to finish. Then he was testy, but wouldn't admit it.

At 9 p.m. he sent our daughter to ask me if they could watch a movie. I found H and told him that it was 9:00 p.m. and I was tired. THEN he told the children they couldn't watch a movie. He then got out his computer to do his reports. I confronted him on sending the children to ask me about the movie, instead of making the decision himself. I also asked him how he had planned to watch a movie and do his reports. Of course he denied the whole thing, and said he would have done the reports in the morning. Truth is, he has to get up at 5:00 a.m. to go to work, and to my knowledge has never done reports in the morning before work.

He told me I "didn't have to worry" about his work, it is not my problem. (Recognize the turning the tables and manipulation?) No, it is not my problem, but his PA lack of responsibility, setting me up to be the bad person IS my problem.

In addition, we are supposed to be looking for a home to buy. He set it up for the realtor to send me the info when a new potential house comes on the market...as usual, he wants me to do the work, so he can drag his feet, or reject it. There is one house I would love, but he is not looking into it, because it would require a lot of creativity and work to get us into that house. Of course, being PA, he will not make great efforts to look into the houses I really like....to do what would really make me happy is completely against his nature...I know that from years of living with him.

So I am just marking as "save" any house that might have positive characteristics. There are 35 saved. Last week he told me to send him the links and he will look. He made it seem that simple..."of course" I was overreacting by believing he wasn't actively participating in the house hunt. "All" I had to do was to send him the links...so I did. He has looked at only a few of them, and then hasn't gotten back to me about them anyway.

My gut says, and his behavior is proving that he is going to try to put the house decision and legwork in my lap. I'm not going to get my hopes up, and I'm not going to let him put it all on me.

He hasn't given me a post nup, even though he said he would have it by last week. He mentioned he worked on it while he was out of town on business, but I am at the point that words don't count anymore, actions do.

I just want to be away from him when he acts like this. My IC has told me several times that I am the parent in our relationship. I've read so much on PA, and parent/child marraiges, and how the wife becomes resentful and frustrated by being put in that position, and by being disappointed when the H acts like the "naughty child." She said that his EA, not writing a post nup, porn, etc. are all his efforts to be a bad boy, and make me the mom. I didn't ask for a man/child. I want a husband and a protector.

The more I figure out what is happening in our relationship, the less I hope I have for my happiness. Like the articles say, he changes temporarily, then he goes back to his childish, PA behaviors.

I'm becoming convinced that he is not able to change his core PA personality, and he will always be a walking time bomb.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 6:29 AM, June 22nd (Friday)

Hi everyone,

I've been silent on SI for a while but have been reading along. I wanted to give an update in this thread because my marriage was seriously undermined by my husband's passivity for years. He and I have been in MC for about two years and we were separated for one year. Moved back in together in late March and have been fighting the good fight since. Not always easy and not always moving forward.

But what brings me to the PA thread is something that happened recently that really got my husband to wake up to "owning" his part in our marriage and the damage that his passivity has done. One of the suggestions from the book "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" (author Patty Henry) was for men to connect with "men's movement" kinds of things, to groups that challenge men to hold themselves accountable, stuff like that. I bought that book (of course) when I was trying to make sense of what was going on with my H/in our M, and he read it too.

That suggestion about mens' groups resonated with him, so he found a group called the Mankind Project, mankindproject.org. He went to one of the New Warrior weekends, and wow, did it have a huge impact. My H has been far more emotionally available, willing to deal with me when I'm upset, proactive about getting stuff done/taking responsibility for our lives.

One of the things I feared most as we struggled for such a long time in MC was that, because my H would disengage when I was upset (for any reason, not just with him), that I feared he would totally desert me when something really awful happened, like my mom dying. Well, in fact, my mother died this month and it's been an exhausting emotional ride, and he has really been there for me as I've dealt with it. Amazing. A few years ago this would not have been the case. Even more amazing is that he sees that now, understands it, and realizes what a problem that would be.

I think a big part of the change was that my H knew he had stuff to deal with/change and he was receptive to it, dove right in. My H and I had been in MC for a long time, and some of the big issues between us--and with him--had been really well defined. He knew where his trouble spots/weak spots were, he wanted to address them and change them, but didn't know how, or perhaps was just too scared to unsure to try. The MKP weekend was really intense, but also really well designed, and meant to get guys to face up to the reality of their lives and to be authentic, responsible, engaged.

There are lots of suggestions for marriage support/couples counseling programs on SI (like Retrouvaille and Imago), and I suggest this in the same spirit, though it's more individual in nature and just for men. I gather there's a women's group with a similar orientation, a challenge/personal growth/accountability focus, if that is relevant for folks here too.

PS. HurtButHopeful, you're the last person to write here. I wanted to tell you that I relate to everything you wrote about: being the "bad cop" to the kids, doing all the legwork. I don't know whether the suggestion I just wrote about will work for you/your H, but I can tell you that I finally effected change in my M by putting my foot down about that behavior and being unwilling to live the rest of my life that way. As I've said upthread, it has been a very hard two years of struggle to change those patterns, but I am hopeful that in the end it will have been worth it. Good luck.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, July 8th (Sunday)

Thanks Boston Girl. Lately I've stopped stepping into the "Parent" role. We are trying to find a home, and I refuse to do all the work, or even a little of the work, unless it suits me that day. If he wants to help me heal, and finally realizes I will heal easier if I have a home or "safe place" of my own, where I can plant, dig, change, etc. things for therapy, then he needs to step up and do the legwork. I will say if I like it or not. Damn, I'm not a mystery, for 20+ years I have been very open about my "dream" house.

Today his mom called him. A good thing is that he recognized her usual manipulation and shallow declarations of love for our children. When he asked if she wanted to talk to them herself, just like her script, she had an excuse why she couldn't talk with them. Did he confront her? NO!! Did he tell me what he was thinking?? YES!! That is a step in the right direction: for him to acknowledge to himself his disappointment. Now he needs to grow up and tell her what is going on in his mind when she makes excuses. Oh, of course, while he and I were talking, he told me exactly what he thought of me. He's scared of her, not sure why.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
roseguide
Member
Member # 35697
Default  Posted: 9:02 PM, July 8th (Sunday)

This is all achingly familiar.


D final 12/3/12 6 months and 4 days from D-day
My only missteps were; 1. Listening to lies because I didn't want to see the painful truth, 2. Letting it go on this long, 3. Being capable of love beyond all reason and condition - Eumenides, SI member

Posts: 183 | Registered: May 2012 | From: New Jersey
BearNY
New Member
Member # 36063
Default  Posted: 3:30 AM, July 10th (Tuesday)

Thanks for helping me feel normal.

I brought up PA in MC like 5 years ago. I printed out the list of things that describe PA behavior and it spelled out exactly what was going on.

The MC swept it under the rug because my STBX could not admit to anything and the MC was not very good.

As I read this thread, I realize that you cannot change the light bulb, the light bulb has to want to change.

So I sent my STBX a note that when all the dust settles from the D, it would be nice if she read up on this.

I do see that most of the PA are men. I ended up with a PA wife. They exist and are just as toxic as men.

Reading these forums helps me understand so much about what went wrong.

Thanks for sharing everyone!


Me: WS (50)
Her: WS (50)
Daughters: 11 and 13
M: 15yrs

Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Upstate NY
Elaine2012
Member
Member # 36099
Default  Posted: 10:40 PM, July 12th (Thursday)

The examples really fit my relationship with WH. From what I've read it's just how it is for me. I have gone crazy trying to understand why I can never get "it" right. The "boomerang relationship" really struck a cord.

I have stopped doing so many things because I don't know what his response will be to any given situation will be. Hugs sometimes will withdraw or brush past me on the way to "do" something. Just enough to make me gun shy to try.


Me- 53
WH- 57
Divorced - May 22, 2014
Dday - Blindsided July 2012
Married 35 years
4 adult DD's, 2 SIL, 3 grandchildren

Posts: 285 | Registered: Jul 2012
10YearsLater
New Member
Member # 36097
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, July 14th (Saturday)

All of this is my WH.

Ten years and I could never get all the way through to him no matter what I gave, and I gave a LOT.

It feels good to read all of this.


Done being co-dependent.
A BS who gave ten years and is saying NO MORE after another affair. Learning to love myself again.
Last D-Day: 07/09/12 at 6:30pm

Posts: 15 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Atwater, Ohio
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, July 17th (Tuesday)

Hey all you sufferers of the P/A partner...

I found a couple of VERY interesting articles from Dr George Simon, PhD, at the following website:

http://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/10/22/passive-aggressive/

This article discusses Dr. Simon's work to characterize COVERT aggression, as a distinctly different type of behavior from PASSIVE aggression.

" Aggression can also be covert. That is, it can be carefully cloaked so that aggressive intent is concealed from open observation. Covert-aggression is at the heart of much interpersonal manipulation and emotional abuse. People often get conned and abused by others because they fail to spot their aggressive intentions and behaviors until after they’ve already been victimized.

Most of the time, when I hear people use the terms “passive-aggressive” or “passive-aggression” what they really mean is “covert-aggression.” I usually hear the term “passive-aggressive” used incorrectly to describe the subtle, hard to detect, but yet deliberate, calculating and underhanded tactics that manipulators and other disturbed characters use to intimidate, control, deceive, and abuse others. That’s what covert-aggression is all about. Although this kind of aggression is often subtle or concealed, there’s absolutely nothing “passive” about it. It’s very active, albeit veiled, aggression. "

Also from the same website is this, again from Dr. Simon:

"Beware the Covert-Aggressive Personality

The covert-aggressive personality employs a potent one-two punch: the covert-aggressive conceals aggressive intent to ensure you never really see what’s coming; and he or she exploits your normal sensitivities, conscientiousness and other vulnerabilities to manipulate you into succumbing.

Covert-Aggressive Personalities are the archetypal wolves in sheep’s clothing that I introduced in my first book, In Sheep’s Clothing. These individuals are not openly aggressive in their interpersonal style. In fact, they do their best to keep their aggressive intentions and behaviors carefully masked. They can often appear quite charming and amiable, but underneath their civil façade they are just as ruthless as any other aggressive personality. They are devious, underhanded, and subtle in the ways they abuse and exploit others. They have usually amassed an arsenal of interpersonal maneuvers and tactics that have enabled them to effectively manipulate and control those in relationships with them. The tactics they use are effective because they simultaneously accomplish two objectives very effectively:


The tactics conceal obvious aggressive intent. When the covert-aggressive is using the tactics, the other person has little objective reason to suspect that he is simply attempting to gain advantage over them.
The tactics covert-aggressive personalities use effectively play on the sensitivity, conscientiousness, and other vulnerabilities of most persons — especially neurotic individuals — and therefore effectively quash any resistance another person might have to giving-in to the demands of the aggressor.

So, it’s this one-two punch of the tactics: never really seeing what’s coming, and being vulnerable to succumbing to them, that’s at the heart of why most people get manipulated by them.

A good example might be the case in which a wife confronts her husband about not spending as much time as she would like him to with the family. He might retort that he constantly feels as if unreasonable demands are being placed on him by her (casting himself as the “victim”), that he works hard to provide for his family but no one seems to appreciate it (casting himself as the suffering, under-valued servant), and that she never has anything good to say about him and is always complaining (using the techniques of shaming and guilt-tripping). Within moments, the woman’s good intention to correct a problem in family relationships is now framed as a heartless attack on an unappreciated devoted husband and father. If the wife buys into the tactics, she will be successfully manipulated. She won’t see the situation as one in which she is in a relationship with a person who puts his own desires and his career first and his family second. In fact, she might not view him as an aggressor at all and may even come to believe that she is the unjust attacker. She’ll probably relent and remain under her partner’s dominance and control.

Now, as you can see from the preceding example, aggressive personalities that use such tactics to bring potential adversaries to submission are anything but passive in their interpersonal styles. Yet for years many have erroneously applied the label “passive-aggressive” to such behaviors. I wrote about this in a prior post: “When Passive-Aggression isn’t Very Passive”. Furthermore, personalities such as the husband described in the example above are very different from the kind of personalities that are appropriately labeled passive-aggressive personalities. The eminent researcher Dr. Theodore Millon describes passive-aggressive personalities as having an “active-ambivalent” pattern of relating to others. That is, they are very ambivalent about whether to adhere primarily to a staunchly independent mode of conduct or to rely primarily on others to tend to their emotional needs. As a result, they engage in a continuous pattern of vacillation between the two extremes. Ask them where they want to go for dinner and they will tell you to decide. Pick a place and they will complain that they don’t really like it that well and don’t want to go there. Invite them to pick a place of their own liking and they will complain that they asked you to decide. Tell them of another preference and they will be lukewarm to your suggestion. It goes on and on. Therapists who treat passive-aggressive personalities know this kind of scenario well. Their client will pelt them with pleas for assistance. But when the therapist recommends a course of action, the client will come up with ten reasons why he or she can’t do what the therapist prescribes. When the therapist throws up his or her hands in exasperation, the client will wail and complain that nobody cares. It’s a horribly self-defeating vicious circle of ambivalence.

As you can see, covert-aggressive personalities are very different from passive-aggressive personalities, and they are anything but passive. They are very actively aggressive personalities who know how to keep their aggressive agendas carefully cloaked. Dealing with them is like getting whiplash. You don’t know how badly you’ve been taken advantage of until long after the damage is done. They are, perhaps, the most manipulative of all personalities with the possible exception of the psychopathic (alt: sociopathic) personality — the subject of an upcoming post."

Here is a link to an article about seductive manipulation, with more links to a series of articles Dr. Simon has written about manipulation:

http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/04/13/seduction-as-manipulation-tactic/

Anyway, enough quoting from me, I am only part way into reading the material on his website, but it immediately struck a chord with me. Like WOW.


kk


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
BearNY
New Member
Member # 36063
Default  Posted: 3:36 AM, July 18th (Wednesday)

KK, that was a great post!!! Just when I was starting to think that maybe I am the P/A one... the example you quoted was exactly what happens with my STBX in the P/A behavior.

That said, I came on here to post the following observation about my situation and wondered what other's thought of it?

It is a familiar story to others I have heard… I was raised in a home with an alcoholic father. We were never good enough for him, because he was putting all of us down.

I got used to being told I was no good, made to feel like I did not try hard enough and that everything was my fault. I learned to not only survive in this, but I also learned to live in this environment.

Many years later, I find myself with two beautiful daughters but headed to divorce.

My soon to be ex-wife will tell you that I am not the good person I project myself to be, that I never tried hard enough at the marriage, and that everything that went wrong is my fault. My wife is an alcoholic (who has been sober for 18 years).

I picked someone/something I knew and was comfortable with when I married her. Not that it was the right choice, but it certainly was a safe choice, because I knew how to survive in this chaos.

As much as I loved my father and did everything I could to try to win his love, nothing I would do could change his in-ability to love himself and then be able to love others. As much as I loved my wife and did everything I could to try to win her love, nothing I would do could change her inability to love herself and to then be able to love me.

At one point in our lives, we wake up and realize we are not where we wanted to be and we decide to move on. That is where I was in January 2012 related to my marriage.

I have done some personal growth, and I expect to continue to make time to connect what is important for me and my values.

My soon to be ex wife and I will need to continue to work together on raising our daughters. She has a passive-aggressive personality. It is pretty horrible stuff for her and for those who live around her. I am looking forward to “getting out”.

She grew up with two alcoholic parents. She was never good enough for them and when she tried to give and get love from them, she got hurt. She learned not to trust loving someone who is supposed to be your closest partner. She could never open up to me emotionally, for fear of the same pattern would come back that she knew from birth.

She expressed it as “I have the feeling that I have been had” or “taken for a ride”.

Our marriage was doomed from the very early start.

Today, she still struggles to take care of herself and that means she has nothing to offer someone else.

Thanks,

Bear

[This message edited by BearNY at 3:40 AM, July 18th (Wednesday)]


Me: WS (50)
Her: WS (50)
Daughters: 11 and 13
M: 15yrs

Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Upstate NY
broken <3
Member
Member # 35098
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, July 18th (Wednesday)

Ill read more later but right now I just have to get this off my chest!!
I've told fWS my requirements for R and he's avoiding it and it's driving me crazy!!!
Example:
On the 12th I found out more about his A - I said I'm getting to the point where I can't do this anymore and have been extremely depressed since. I said to go over his records and give me a detailed time line - I posted here about it and got great feed back and passed that info to him.
On the 13th (Friday lol) I told him he has 48 hours to work on it and discuss it when he's done.
Today he has off work (long over the 48 hours!) he drives me to my appt and then we do some shopping and running around and when we get home - he's back out the door to hang out with his little brother!!
Grrrr!!
Boy oh boy can you say codependent or what??
Heading over to that forum next to read lol...


Me - BS mother of 15 month old identical twin girls (conceived during HB)
Him - serial cheater
R? Still not sure if this is a deal breaker...

Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West coast Canada
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, July 18th (Wednesday)

Interesting correlation between Passive Aggressive and Codependents in relationships, broken<3... that's what we have going on in the Razz household. Food for thought...


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16363 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Crushed1
Member
Member # 6449
Default  Posted: 11:24 PM, July 18th (Wednesday)

I read some of Dr. George Simon's work a while back and was very impressed. Dealing with a P/A is all too familiar territory for me. I see that I had been dealing with a classic P/A for all these years and suddenly everything made sense. It was like being hit with a bolt of lightning. But I also see signs of some covert/aggression here as well. Truly eye opening stuff! Knowledge is POWER, thanks for the info!

You don’t know how badly you’ve been taken advantage of until long after the damage is done.

I've been coming to so many realizations and lately the above quote has been hitting me so hard. I'm feeling a lot of anger and sadness because 'The damage is done' and there's no going back but I cut myself some slack because I had no idea what I was dealing with. Boy, I wish I had known way back when. But like Dr. Simon said it's a "veiled aggression" and they're so clever at hiding it...sorry I'm about to start ranting just thinking about the lost time I can't get back...

I am learning to deal with it though, so making some forward movement. And that's always good.

Peace and strength to everyone dealing with this type of relationship.


~~"You can't run away from yourself"!!! Me to my H when he descended into adultery insanity.
~~Prov.15:13 "By sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken"
~~"The day breaks-your mind aches"
~STRENGTH~PEACE~HOPE~FAITH

Posts: 9651 | Registered: Feb 2005 | From: Texas
2oldforthis
Member
Member # 19825
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, July 19th (Thursday)

I really need someone's help here.

I am 5 years out form his A but it has been the aftermath that has been killing me. I mostly post in general. Today someone posted an articile about PA and there is alot in there that seems to apply to my WS.

Another time I had posted in general something WS had done and they suggested to me he might be PA. I did come to this thread and read the Boomerang Relationship. I did not see that as similar to us and therefore did not explore PA any futher.

Here is the main problem that I see with him he is extremely defensive if I dare say anything about him that he may preceive as negative (even in the slightest way) this I have been aware of since the A was uncovered and we started talking about it. He is so much so that I can't even say that you hurt me by doing such and such without him being extremely defensive and then making some remark to turn it around back to me.

I had thought that he was a conflict avoider but now I think it may be more.

What is the difference be conflict avoider and PA?

What should I start to read first?

I am so frustrated in this relationship and trying to comuunicate with him.

Please help me.

Lightbulb moment: I have had the tag line: Love kills slowly, for along time.

Maybe this is the connection to that statement.

[This message edited by 2oldforthis at 7:59 AM, July 19th (Thursday)]


He did not see what he had in me, what I saw in him I did not have!

Love kills slowly.


Posts: 1633 | Registered: Jun 2008
broken <3
Member
Member # 35098
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, July 19th (Thursday)

Personally for me he is P/A and I'm codependent for sure. Turns out that I was too sensitive yesterday and today - he has been working on his timeline.
I've just got the book "codependent no more" from the library and have yet to read it.
Right now I'm just going thru the motions - but today he's been awfully helpful around the house - doing chores - wow I didn't even have to ask!
Maybe he's feeling guilty lol


Me - BS mother of 15 month old identical twin girls (conceived during HB)
Him - serial cheater
R? Still not sure if this is a deal breaker...

Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West coast Canada
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, July 19th (Thursday)

2oldforthis...I truly know how you feel, I'm one of the "older ones", am in a 30 year M, and am over 4 years out from dday....

I wonder, was your H defensive about your saying anything "negative" about him before the A? Or is it just since the A? Or just "more-so" since the A?

Sometimes an A is a PA behavior (not dealing outright about things in the M, expecting the spouse to "know" what's on their mind, and deliver, etc, and then when they don't, they "punish" them, covertly, by having an A)
In my opinion, this is what my H did.....

So, I have been reading like a mad woman about PA disorder, conflict avoidance personalities, emotionally unavailable men, etc, etc. since my H's A. Yes, for over 4 years!
(These are things I thought about and explored a little before the A due to his behavioral patterns in general, but were really "in my face" and commanded my attention afterwards.)

I can't tell you the exact difference between PA and conflict avoiders, but they seem to go hand-in-hand.

After reading kk's post about Dr. Simon, I went to his website and read and read and read.... I found it incredibly insightful, sensible, and clear.
Google him if you have some time!

I read his "tools for personal empowerment" - how to hold your own and keep your power when dealing with people who he says have personality disorders, who are manipulative, difficult to communicate with, etc. I thought they were right on, and right to the point. Very helpful...

Best of luck, "2"...


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
2oldforthis
Member
Member # 19825
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, July 20th (Friday)

(Sadandtrying) Thanks for your help. I am going to read some of the places that you gave me to start. Right now I am trying to sort it all out.

All that I know is that I am having a very difficult time trying to R with him. He is actually driving me crazy. For him to not listen and me to not be able to say a word to him about anything is extemely frustrating. I cannot live like this anymore.

I am not sure if he was this way before the A I would have to think about that a little more. I can tell you that he definitely was a conflict avoider. I can remember going to him about this with the kids etc and he would walk away from me when I was talking. I remember having to follow him around in order to finish the conversation. How stupid was that? That is what I would do, even from the inside of the house to the outside. But I didn't stop him from doing it, I would just follow him around and finish my conversation.
I should have stopped that along time ago and made him stop to listen to me.

If someone is PA is it something that they are able to change?


He did not see what he had in me, what I saw in him I did not have!

Love kills slowly.


Posts: 1633 | Registered: Jun 2008
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:55 PM, July 20th (Friday)

from what i read so far a PA person can learn new behavirs to counteract the pa behaviors, but they have to admit to the problem first right.

which is the hard part in my opinion

I really like the covert-aggressor that is definitely a different view of the PA personality.

I am just trying to confront and destroy his delusions. I can't believe how he became the victim he cheated, lied had our child around the slut and kicked us out but I should be shamed to apply for child support bc now he wants to move out of state with no job prospects and cant contribute to his debt and to child support.

and after he tells me his sorrows (mind you i'm underemployed and can't pay daycare) he breaks down how he is not going to... he is a complete victim and we all use him. sigh
he is completely delusional so is his mother!

QUIET TREATMENT
he hasn't text-ed or call me why? he received the child support papers he knew he was going receiving sigh.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
Elaine2012
Member
Member # 36099
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, July 31st (Tuesday)

BeingMiranda,
http://www.restartyourlife.info/?p=487

Thanks for posting this it's so helpful and eye opening. I have been trying to figure out the crazy train that I'm on and have been for almost 34 years. Maybe it really isn't me after. I am aware that I have my own issues that I need to work on. I've always felt like I can just never do "it" right.


Me- 53
WH- 57
Divorced - May 22, 2014
Dday - Blindsided July 2012
Married 35 years
4 adult DD's, 2 SIL, 3 grandchildren

Posts: 285 | Registered: Jul 2012
tooloyal
Member
Member # 36310
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, August 12th (Sunday)

Does anyone know how the OW uses passive/aggressive behaviour to keep WS?

Posts: 127 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: UK
scangel3
Member
Member # 36164
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, August 23rd (Thursday)

Ok just found this group looking around SI, and got me thinking...
Is my husband passive aggressive???

After reading some posts. I think he is, But still not sure. Here is what makes me think he is/isn't, please let me know what you think...

*I make most of the decisions in the home, and the one's he does make is after a HUGE fight/argument between the two of us forcing him to make the decision.
*When we are around other people and he knows what I want to do or where I want to go to eat, but we are making a choice as a group, he still says "what ever you guys want is fine" even when he knows I don't like where they are going. He won't put his own input in.

*Sometimes I feel like he is just ignoring me around his family and friends, ignoring what I want. Just so he doesn't have to say he wants to do or go somewhere different.

*Then there's the times in-between us, he will usually do what ever I ask him to do. Sometimes I feel like a bitch. But I will ask him why don't you say no or say something about it, and his response is "I don't know" or "I don't want you to get mad". And no matter what is going on if I question something he says or does regardless if I am mad or not he thinks I am mad at him. Even when I tell him I am not mad, (which makes me mad in return )

Those are just some of the things I am realizing off the top of my head. I get so frustrated with him and have always wondered why he is like this, but if he is passive aggressive then I guess I at least know the why.

Thank you for any responses I get, I am just starting to think about this and just wondering.


BS-me 31, WH-31, M'd-10 years
DD 8.5, DS 6, DS 5.5
Dday 03/01/10 (our DD's bday)
A ended 08/31/10-09/02-10 (with multiple ddays in between).TT on 08/2012, 09/04/12, 11/16/2012, 01/2013, 6/25/2013 Says he wants R, but not proving it

Posts: 714 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Portland
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, September 4th (Tuesday)

scange i have seen this with my ex too.

one of the reasons I didn't really fight for R.


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
sickrn
Member
Member # 36398
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, September 4th (Tuesday)

Great thread, seems the more I read, the more I see our relationship. I knew WH avoided conflict but these reactions are EXACTLY what I get.
Me-What do you want for dinner?
H- Whatever you'd like
Me- No preferance?
H- Nope
Me- Okay, chicken
H- If that's what you want,(heavy sigh)
OMG, it's like dealing with a 13 year old...same with housework "what would you like me to do to help you today?" Help me? I am the primary wage earner and I'm also responsible for the housework? You live here too, ANY chores would be helpful...
Wow, looks like I have some serious reading to do..thanks for the thread..


M=23 yrs
DD-22
BW=46
WH=46
DDAY 6/12

In R....trust but verify!

The truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark.
It scares you witless,
But in time you see things clear and stark - Elvis


Posts: 89 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Purgatory
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 6:58 AM, September 9th (Sunday)

Sadly with a P/A personality is that you are dealing with someone with extreme hidding anger issues. Add to the mix someone whose maturity level has stayed somewhere in their teens....or they just stopped at some point while you kept up with the rest of the world....now it puts you in the parent role. They won't or can't make a decision. They leave it all up to you. Then when the weight of all decisions are left up to you and you are exhausted and drained of all life and have no energy to cater to them anymore they run off and have an affair with someone. Usually to put you in your place, it is punishment because you are not playing the game any more. OR they have drained you of everything you have to give and they find a new source to start the P/A game with.

Do you ask them to do things and they never get them done?

Are they irresponsible with money?

Like the above posters, do you ask them an opinion about whats for dinner, or where to go to dinner, or what they want to do that day, etc.... and there answer is always "I don't care or whatever you want to do" yet are then angry at your choice?

Because they never make a decision.

And after years of this you are just spent with nothing left in the tank thinking you were this great person who "loved" them and you were a great partner because you did EVERYTHING for them.

And they went and screwed someone else.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
LionessQn76
Member
Member # 32366
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, September 22nd (Saturday)

thanks realitybites you just summed up my feelings!!!


Only the strong survives!

Posts: 424 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: New York City
WheredoIgonow
Member
Member # 27130
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, September 27th (Thursday)

Well, this is my first post in this thread.... and the more I read, the more I am convinced.. I AM married to a PA man.

I always heard that term before, but I guess I never really thought about it... but it really, really makes sense.

We've been married over 28 years... 4 wonderful children (2 out of the house - 2 in high school). I thought we had a wonderful life and a pretty good marriage....then the A's came up. My FWH went through a major MLC...

We've been working on R for amost 3 years. Counseling for the first 1 to 1 1/2 and IC for him.

So, we've worked through a lot of the A mess... though it's always there..

Now the focus is us.. and we both want it to be better.

I've been a SI fan and member for a couple of years.. and just this week as I've got some great responses from other SI'rs - and gave me some links to PA articles and this thread - and it was like WOW.... this is us! He definitely has PA traits... and I've been feeding into them for YEARS... without really knowing it. I thought I was just being the 'good' wife - and taking care of him, the family, the kids, etc... I was the strong one and could handle so much... I would take on the burden of finances, the children, school.. because that's who I was... and the As hit.. and I've been working hard through those - and trying to understand 'why'.

I am a 'fixer'. I am an "analyzer'. I am a "doer". I am a "take charge" kind of person. I have no problem making a decision.

He does. Big or small. He wants me to - but doesn't want me to.

Now I'm seeing so much in a different light as I've been reading about this PA stuff.

He IS a NICE guy. He IS a GOOD father. He does NICE things for me and others...I would put him in the category as one of the NICEST persons I know.... except to me at times.

Is it common for the PA type person to be only PA to his spouse? I really don't see that behavior of his with anyone else.

Did he become so comfortable with me over the years... now he treats me so poorly sometimes?

I've been very, very frustrated with his negativity towards me.... his negative filter of me... His blow ups over NOTHING... and I learned enough from MC and my soul searching - that I can't change him.. I can't "do" anything for him to change...

On my own, I've learned to behave differently. I don't react like I used to... I used to yell and scream back at him a lot.... "chase" after him - wanting to resolve our disagreement.... NO MORE...

But I need to learn how to "respond" to him when he treats me that way... I've got read more.

I don't know how to encourage him that if he wants our M to be better, he needs to recognize his behavior and make some changes. But I can't tell him that... no way. How do I get him to look at himself... Is there something I can give him and ask him to read?

I feel sorry for him realy. It is all he has known. His parents (who are still alive and in their 80s)are the most emotionally-detached people I know.. no wonder he turned out this way.... They're "nice" - but ZERO emotional attachments to each other, their kids, grandkids, let alone friends. They have none.

I came from a very stable, loving, supportive enviroment. Perfect - heck no... but pretty darn healthy I would say.

So, my FWH continues the dance with his parents.... super shallow... controlling father.... and jumps when his father says jumps... even at the expense of his wife and 4 kids... It's their dance..

His IC tried to work with him on that .. and that's about the time he said he didn't want to go to IC anymore or MC...

Now when I suggest counseling again, he said maybe, but "im not going back to those guys". I say why not and he said because he felt like they were picking on him".

My "helping" gene wants to help my FWH... but I'm just trying to focus on me.... and my behaviors.

But I'm tired of him viewing me and verbally accusing me of such negativiity.... making stuff up sometimes of what he wants to believe - just to make me look bad.. when there is no validity.

He is very insecure.. and hates to and rarely admits any wrong doing or mistakes - super small or big...

So, where do I start. I believe there is hope - but reading these posts on this thread scares me..


Me; BS (55)
Him: WS (57)
Married 30 years
DD-28, DS-27, DS-18, DS-17
OW#1 - PA - 4 1/2 years
OW#2 - EA/PA - 5 months
He thought she was his soulmate - was going to move out- confessed about OW#2 when asked. OW#1 revealed them.

Posts: 608 | Registered: Jan 2010
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, October 12th (Friday)

WDIGN, Welcome! I'm a little delayed in responding to your post.

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but I live with a PA and have for two years. The things I learned about MYSELF after doing some reading made me angry at myself for not handling things differently; for in some way I set a dirty precedent early, early on.

If I had to guess..... the "helper" part of you is probably codependent. Maybe not, though, but living with this personality is when I really noticed my codependency the most.

One thing that has helped take his "control" away is by working on my dependency. Little things I was doing that he was sitting back just absorbing all my love and getting me to jump through hoops for him.

Well, the transition has been difficult for him to deal with as it trickles down on the negativity you mentioned your husband puts on you.

Don't let this scare you because some of this stuff makes it sound like it's entirely impossible to live or deal with a PA. I felt that way and then realized that the only way to get any sort of change was to change myself and stop feeding this wounded sort of personality.

I am extremely independent and seldom turn to a man for ANY advice or help in decision making. I have been this way my whole life and it's, at times, not very conducive to relationship success.

Understanding that their underlying issue is repressed anger and rather than blow a gasket, they'd rather their partner do it for them and that way they can feel better (momentarily) while you are pulling your hair out. It's also a very controlling behavior!!

My SO is constantly saying to me "if you tell me to do something then I'll do it". A strange concept coming from someone who loves to control the very air people breathe but he does, every single time!!

Building up your self esteem is vital to living with this personality IMHO. My SO and I had this type of friendship to begin with so much of what he says or does I tend not to pay attention to anyway, which has been a help and saving grace in some cases. Other cases, I tell him how his behavior made me feel and to not do it again.

Just curious..... who controls your sex life? Sorry if that's too forward but that is when I really see this behavior come out.

PM if you want!

Hope I helped.


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
WheredoIgonow
Member
Member # 27130
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, October 12th (Friday)

2kidsandadog...

Thanks for responding... there are not many posts under this topic - or at least not very often...

My H is not really a controlling guy with ANYONE - compared to people I know I work with.. in fact, he's quite the opposite.

And he doesn't trip anyone the way he treats me - except maybe the barista girl he doesn't like - or the waitress that he doesn't like.... Everyone else?? he would be voted the nicest guy in the whole world.

So, that's where I struggle. He isn't passive aggressive to many people - mainly me.. and these other people that I just mentioned as I observe his behavior.

As far as sex, it's normally him...but I Certainly do often... but he'd be the one who would initiate it whether we were getting along or not.

Thanks again for responding..


Me; BS (55)
Him: WS (57)
Married 30 years
DD-28, DS-27, DS-18, DS-17
OW#1 - PA - 4 1/2 years
OW#2 - EA/PA - 5 months
He thought she was his soulmate - was going to move out- confessed about OW#2 when asked. OW#1 revealed them.

Posts: 608 | Registered: Jan 2010
jandjs1st
Member
Member # 36087
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, October 12th (Friday)

This is the first time I have ever read this thread. My WH is PA. The good news is I think my H is realizing it.

This PA behavior stems from his childhood. There is so much inside of him that he has never expressed and now he is finally trying to dig into it. Earlier this week (and a couple of weeks ago) he came home from IC saying he had some "aha moments." He realized the anger he has with his mother is being deflected onto me. He seemed to be having a breakthrough. Maybe this is part of his "why" Only time will tell I guess. I know I can't fix him. He has to dig into these issues on work on himself.


BW-32
FWH- 33
2 DD
Status - Working on it
d-day- April 21, 12

Posts: 180 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Southeast
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, October 15th (Monday)

WDIGN,

They seldom are passive with the "outside" world. It stems from intimacy issues underneath and significant others bring all that "fear" up for them. He is quite normal in that realm.

My SO met some friends and my ex sister in law who all knew my ex and at the end of dinner, one guy said that I "deserved" him (my SO). They all knew what an abusive man my ex was and my SO was able to put on that nice guy charm. Here's the thing though, he IS a nice guy but acts out his passive aggressiness on those closest to him. He wouldn' hurt a fly nor would he ever yell at anyone; that's the unhealthy part of this personality. They stuff, stuff, stuff it with no real way to get it out, so they create scenarios that make you angry, so as to allow them to stay calm.

In the end, your husband may not be passive aggressive. I would (and have) do some reading on it to get a better scope of what it's like to live with this disorder.

When I got through with the book, I was so damn mad at myself, but yet so incredibly relieved. It took immediate pressure off of me thinking that I was the one doing all this stuff wrong and creating the problems. He ends up creating 90% of my issues with him, but since I've learned to stop the control, he's come around some because now he doesn't know what I'm up to.

It's a weird game I never knew the likes of before. In the end, he's a baby (man) just like so many but I can count on him to do things I need him to do. That would NOT be a passive aggressive trait. Usually, they make you think they are dependable, but turn around and claim ignorance on the subject.

Hope I've helped.

[This message edited by 2kidsandadog at 8:55 AM, October 15th (Monday)]


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
BostonGirl
Member
Member # 33930
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, October 15th (Monday)

2kidsandadog, which book are you referring to? I'd like to read it.

I haven't posted here in a long while, but every story that has been written here recently really hits home for me. I am the supremely efficient doer, my husband is the consummate avoider.

Except in our case, he was totally avoidant about affection and sex, too. Didn't notice it had disappeared, didn't miss it, was totally unmoved by any of the 60 different ways I tried to address the issue and bring us closer, physically and otherwise.

Anything that made him uncomfortable made him withdraw further. Essentially, asking for what I wanted or needed guaranteed I would never get it.

God, what a mindfuck. After two years of serious struggle he is finally getting it, how abandoning and irresponsible and downright disrespectful that was. He is doing a whole lot now to make up for it, but I still fear in my heart that he will always emotionally abandon me when things get tough.


It'll all be OK in the end. If it's not OK, it's not the end.

Posts: 133 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Boston
2kidsandadog
Member
Member # 33679
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, October 15th (Monday)

It's simply titled " Living with The Passive Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler.

It's very easy reading and doesn't make you think life with this kind of person is impossible. I was afraid of that at first, but it teaches you different techniques to handling them plus it defines the codependent person which is the biggest attraction to them, and then begins the cycle. Our attraction is one of control, strong, dependable (which in the beginning he was Mr. Perfect and conveyed such about himself. Boy, what I've learned now.

I had to read it at work cause we live together and I refused to let him in on this one. He'd for sure switch gears just to confuse me even more.


Divorced 05/11/11 -
2kids - 20 and 22 (Thank God for them)

Too many Ddays to count. Enough said!


Posts: 693 | Registered: Oct 2011
Missymomma
Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, October 16th (Tuesday)

This book has been eye opening. Think most addicts fall under the PA title. Started MC today and said I felt we fit this mold. The MC knew what book I was talking about and wholeheartedly agreed! Thanks so much for this thread and book info.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
quirkina
Member
Member # 22119
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, October 27th (Saturday)

After attempting to R for the past 2 years, I have finally realized that a lot of the issues are not EA related at all---they are PA,at least I think they are. I am going to buy the book that was mentioned in this thread and see if it makes sense.

Maybe some of you can comment on the following:
H will blow up at the slightest hint of criticism--and have a long list of things I have done wrong--right at the ready to spew at me, but I don't think he would have said anything if I hadn't brought up some issues first.

The things he says have nothing to do with me--in fact, they are more descriptive of his actions. It's like a double gaslight and distraction at once. You become so defensive and have to defend yourself against a wrongful accusation--which has nothing to do with the original situation that you brought up.

And he mishears what I say. If I said, "I am having trouble living like this" (which is bad enough)

He'll say: "Thanks for saying that you can't live in this horror of a marriage!"

When I say: I didn't say that.

He says, yeah you just said it. and on and on. And the subject I wanted to discuss conveniently falls by the wayside.

Thanks for listening.


Posts: 402 | Registered: Dec 2008
AJB100412
New Member
Member # 37934
Angry  Posted: 10:35 AM, December 31st (Monday)

All- my H to a "t". Conversation yesterday
I ask him if he's planning on buying a new mattress (our son over heard him having sex with OW, while I was in Afghanistan. Son described sounds coming from our bedroom)
We hadn't talked about it past the night our son told me. I told him I'd try to sleep in our bed, but was making no promises. Slept (night mares, trouble falling n staying asleep, constant thoughts and mini movies of them in our bed) told him two days ago I was sleeping on pull out because I couldn't stand sleeping/being in our bed. Told him why. His response? Snickers at me, says "I told you we didn't have sex in here!" Hmm. He's lied and continues to lie about details. Our son doesn't lie, he's eight, how would he know how to describe the squishy wet sound of sex? His response is to jump up, snicker, get angry but yank the mattress out of our room and throw it outside. Then comes back in and says ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT ME TO BURN.? I told you I wasn't getting rid of it but you keep nagging me!
1/2 hour later
Me-(out with kids at park)
Him- went to Walmart
Texts-
Him- your movie starts at 1155. Call ur mom n ask her to go.
Me- what r u talking about
Him- you need my people's card
Me- huh?
Him- there's two jack reacher tickets in Gpt.
Me- WHAT R U TALKING ABOUT
him- no reply at all
Me- so you made a date that doesn't include you?
Him- figured we shouldn't be around each other today.

Background- about two months ago, a month after I d-day, he's made plans for him n his friends for a weekend thing, he's made plans for man time, he's made plans for hunting. I ask " when are you gonna make time for us? We haven't been on a date since June." No answer.

Fast forward to later in the day after the movie thing. I get home with kids, he's in the attic. I figure, I don't want to go to the movies, I'd rather go see my best friend whom I haven't seen since July. Tell him I'm going to see her and get no response.
Texts on way down road-
Him- I make plans to go to the movies with you but you'd rather hang out with your friend!
Me- unbelievable
Him- your friends are more important
Me- you're amazing (inside I'm livid but am trying not to fall into his trap)

I've gone out one other time since I returned in may, with my friend shay, her mom, and my mom, to supper. Out of he house for 4 hours.

Daily he throws stuff in my face, doesn't want me to assume, and to ask him if I think a certain way, but when I do he gets angry. But, he assumes the worst about me, puts words in my mouth and tells me what and how I'm thinking. Tells me he wants to make decisions together but when I mention the kids clothes getting too small, house needs tp, what to get for Christmas I get a nod, or an okay and that's it. So I wait, a couple weeks, bring it up again then he says I'm nagging. Or I go buy our kids whatever they need (not want, but need! Shoes cause they can't wear theirs with socks, pants cause the hem is at their upper ankle and they can't button them shut...) and he throws it in my face, saying I do whatever I want to do, so why ask him. Btw- we make 80k a year take home- and I'm a bargain shopper!!

His father treats his mother like shit. Their family never argues! NEVER! My family is the opposite. He is his father, says he doesn't want to be, but when he disrespects me in front of our children, friends, etc. I tell him later on that I didn't deserve or appreciate it. He tells me don't bring his my family ever! He refuses to see them as dysfunctional. I could write a book, 1000 pages long on his pa ways. But I won't bore you any longer. He refuses to see IC or MC or to talk to ANYONE for that matter. I'm in a lose lose situation.


BW-(me) 37
WH-(him) 33
Together since 02, M 06,
2 children-DS-8, DD-4.
D-day(w/proof) 10-04-12
Suspicion- 11-15-11
Brokenbutsurviving, barely
I'd rather be hurt by the truth than be destroyed by lies!

Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Wiggins, MS
AJB100412
New Member
Member # 37934
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, December 31st (Monday)

Can I change my name to "wheredoigonow"? Everything she said about herself is me and her husband is my husband, but younger. I haven't been very good at relaying information but she hit the nail on the head in regards to me n my husbands relationship, his parents relationship, my H whole being, with me, our kids, other people. I will read the books recommended in this thread. I'm miserable and don't know how to change.


BW-(me) 37
WH-(him) 33
Together since 02, M 06,
2 children-DS-8, DD-4.
D-day(w/proof) 10-04-12
Suspicion- 11-15-11
Brokenbutsurviving, barely
I'd rather be hurt by the truth than be destroyed by lies!

Posts: 5 | Registered: Dec 2012 | From: Wiggins, MS
oceanwaves
Member
Member # 29297
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, December 31st (Monday)

I am in the group too. It has been almost 3 years since Dday and I am still living, loving and supporting my my PA husband.

He doesn't use anger blow ups, he uses procrastination and pity to control me. Sadly, he doesn't get it and of course is the NICE GUY and a great dad. He is willing to give me everything- except for financial stability....which is the 1 thing that I am asking for.

It is so frustrating and I imagine leaving him everyday. If we didn't have our amazing HB baby, I would have left him. My feelings have changed and I feel more pity than attraction to him. I have no one to talk to about it and I don't even want to post on the regular boards because I feel so frozen about what to do.

I'm going to order that book that was recommended above and come here often. I really want to get out of this PA cycle.


“More than anything else, I believe it's our decisions, not the conditions of our lives, that determine our destiny.” -Anthony Robbins

Posts: 1606 | Registered: Aug 2010
whatdoto
Member
Member # 28555
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, January 2nd (Wednesday)

Well, here I am in this forum. I too, have lived with a PA man for 17 years. Didn't realize it until just after dday. I researched and discovered, yep, he's PA. I do know what I need to do when he "jabs" me or accuses me of whatever or twists the conversation into somehow it's my fault. I just find it so hard to keep walking away when he does that. I can't tell you how many times I've told WH that when he says X or does X it hurts my feelings and he needs to stop and walk away. He apologizes, and turns right back around, and does/says it again. Uh, so tired of this game.

He was PA all day yesterday, stuck in the house due to crappy weather. Wanted to go hunting, but wouldn't go hunting, then mumbles under his breath behind my back "maybe moms right, I should just never go hunting again". Boy, I just flew right over to him and said "WTF! You seem to be unhappy, why don't you just crawl in your truck and go make yourself happy! Quit blaming me and our son for your unhappiness, and quit mumbling behind our backs about stuff that isn't true!" Then I walked away. He mopes, some more.

Crap!

Then, of course, later he wants sex and when I say "no", well, I must not love him because I am not giving him what he wants. Whateva.

How do you resolve sex issues when their PA actions push you away? I know he loves me, I love him, but...


"If your ideal image of yourself is in the future, it's going to stay there".

Posts: 1187 | Registered: May 2010 | From: Texas
TeaLight
New Member
Member # 34586
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, January 4th (Friday)

I am starting to feel that the only way to cure a P/A is to just walk away from them. As there are many days I truly feel like I am going nuts.

I agree. My ex was PA. He had two affairs during our marriage. The only thing I could do to save my own sanity was leave. Which I did.

It was the best thing I ever did. I'm now engaged to a wonderful, non-PA man and I've never felt more 'normal'.


Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2012
trebleclef
Member
Member # 33488
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, January 6th (Sunday)

That about sums it up: "lose/lose".
Endless frustration. Endless games. Endless eggshells. Endless no-win encounters.

If an A or two isn't enough to end it, a lifetime of this, is.


True remorse isn't followed by a "but".

Posts: 1809 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: Alberta
whatdoto
Member
Member # 28555
Default  Posted: 9:22 PM, January 8th (Tuesday)

Again, how do you deal with having sex with a PA man? he is remorseful, etc doing everythig he can. But his PA tendencies have our sex life at a stand still. How do you girls do it?

I need any help...plz


"If your ideal image of yourself is in the future, it's going to stay there".

Posts: 1187 | Registered: May 2010 | From: Texas
SweetheartVixen
Member
Member # 4956
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, January 8th (Tuesday)

Wow. I can relate to everyone here. Could have spoken the same exact words you stated about your spouses/Ex's.

It drains me to live like this... Tho I rarely see him now.


BS/60s WS/60s Divorcing and not soon enough~!
Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice...

DD 6-14


Posts: 3094 | Registered: Jul 2004 | From: somewhere over the rainbow
sadandtrying
Member
Member # 19246
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, January 25th (Friday)

I am alone in the house today, so I came on SI hoping to get some insight and support.
I am married to a PA man also. Ours is a 30 year M.
I felt his PA ways, but we were so happily distracted raising our 4 wonderful children that we didn't address it..until they were all off on their own.

And then...

The shit hit the fan when he had his last A (almost 5 years ago, and as soon as our youngest went off to college). Since then things have been rough, but we are together. He has been NC for 4 years.

Early on after dday I seemed to realize on some level that my H's A was PA behavior. Kind of like "if you don't know enough to give me what I need, then I'll show you" ....it's somehow my "job" as wife to read his mind, know what he needs, and "deliver" - "or else"....

My eyes have been so opened to the dynamics of our relationship - due to the hours and hours and hours I've spent researching and soul searching....who is he? who am I?

Finding out about the A and the TT that followed, the broken NC was beyond horrible.
Now - it's down to our core relationship. We come from VERY different FOO - his, non-communicative, mine very communicative.

And he mishears what I say. If I said, "I am having trouble living like this"

He'll say: "Thanks for saying that you can't live in this horror of a marriage!"

When I say: I didn't say that.

He says, yeah you just said it. and on and on. And the subject I wanted to discuss conveniently falls by the wayside.

This is us, over and over again...
If I don't play co-dependent, he mopes, and says I don't care about him.

I am so stumped -

I need some solutions and some strategies to help get out of this cycle.
Maybe I need to head to a bookstore now and pick up one of the books that have been recommended here....

Sending love and empathy to everyone here.


Posts: 1064 | Registered: Apr 2008
n0tm3
Member
Member # 37884
Default  Posted: 6:36 AM, February 6th (Wednesday)

I am going to explore this topic more. I do feel that this does explain my husband to some extent. Since DDay I have been thinking that this was part of our dynamics in our relationship.


Me: BS 45
Him: WH 45
DDay #1: 12/17/12; OW 47 married 23
years
DDay #2 2/1/13 EA 6 years ago for 2 weeks with a married college friend through FB
Married 18 years, together 21 years
3 kids; 7,13,16
R trying IC and MC

Posts: 235 | Registered: Dec 2012
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 6:05 AM, February 13th (Wednesday)

I need some solutions and some strategies to help get out of this cycle.
Maybe I need to head to a bookstore now and pick up one of the books that have been recommended here....

I think the best 10 bucks I ever spent was for my copy of James Dobson's "Love Must be Tough".

And, the worst mistake I ever made was staying in the relationship trying to "make it right". I should have, in retrospect, just got the hell out of there and gone and had a decent life and marriage to someone else who wasn't "sick".


Posts: 330 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, February 13th (Wednesday)

I don't know if this will help anyone, but what I do with my passive aggressive, extremely narcissistic husband is pretend that nothing bothers me. I used to really stress about things like chores and home improvement projects, to thie point where he would go longer and longer not doing anything and it would cause me to explode. I work really hard to not show him emotions any more.

We are separated now and he will actually walk away, right out the door, if I get emotional. So it is really in my own best interest, and I suppose our daughters, for me to be the peace keeper as much as I can.

I find I used to worry to much and became easily over heated, but I also know it came from his lack of helping.

Now it is a sport for him to catalog "all" the things he would do for me and wow, is it dramatic! Even things he liked to do, he complains about having to do now.

So even if I fall in the driveway, or if our daughter can't play in the yard because the grass is too long, we work it out our own way.

What I have found is that there is great satisfaction in getting around the need for his help...and it really bothers him when I find another way!

It was so much when he lived here that people thought I was a weak invalid. So the one bright spot in his leaving is that people are seeing me differently. He has a very large family and is the youngest. Grew up without a dad and an alcoholic mom.

I think she doted, over praised and gave whatever he wanted a lot of the time, though he will tell you otherwise...of course!

Thanks for reading my note. It is a real 180 of a feeling when we can figure out that this is the problem. Ove the 20 years I have been with him, I always thought it was me. I was on the anxiety meds, very depressed and such and he and others had it pegged as some mental disorder I had!

That would be the one advice I would give, is the switch things and twist issues or stories to fit their needs and will not care about yours, if you reach devaluation, watch out! Thank you.


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess


Posts: 2134 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, February 13th (Wednesday)

I don't know if anyone is still on here, but what I'm learning about the passive aggressive stalling is that they want to feel in control, but they stall so that it forces US to make choices. Then, if our choice is wrong or backfires, the p/a person can consider themselves blameless. My husband goes to great length-I would be exhausted!-to blame any negative thing whatsoever -on myself or any he can.

His affair he has tried to blame on me and has tried to say that at least the problems leading up to it are my fault. What? I've tried to correct every "issue" he said we continue to be separated without marriage counselling.

My new fear is that he will not say he wants a divorce, nor will he try to work on things...my new fear is that he is pushing me to topple over the edge and I simply will not let him. I tell him that I will work on it and I even let him know that I went to a lawyer to hear my "options", but feel very strongly that he needs to deal with what he did, whether its divorce or trying to work on marriage-if by such time I can even stand it.

It's really amazing to learn about these "conditions" and now that I have this awareness, can function when I have to deal with him a lot better. He is extremely narcissistic as well, which explains the blamaing and other things he does. He also thinks he is above any law or rules and is also atheist-yet will preach to our daughter about following rules and keeping promises!

Ha.


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess


Posts: 2134 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
npain
Member
Member # 33539
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, February 13th (Wednesday)

Ashland13, my STBX is PA as well and he is doing some of the same things--engaging in a 5 yr affair, refusing NC and then when I say that I want a divorce, blames it on me. He has blamed me for the reason he was/is cheating, for his unhappiness. I have been holding off on filing the divorce papers simply because I realize that it is because this is precicely what he wants. He wants to say the reason that he is divorced is tha tI filed, not that he was cheating and brought his whore in my house to babysit our kids. No way that's the reason your wife kicked you out?! But as soon as my taxes are filed, I'm filing becuause I realize that being divorced from him will mean that he wil not be able to blame me for all of his failures forever. At some point he's either going to pick someone to blame why his life's a mess or he'll grow up and take responsibility. Either way, it is not MY problem.

I'm learning to change the dynamic as well. He is used to putting eveything in my lap to take care of. So I've learned to push it back at him so that when things don't go forward, it's on him. And I am getting to the place where I realize that I frankly don't care what he says about me at this point a it is all lies and one day it will come out that it is indeed lies and he is just a big fraud.


S,beginning D

Posts: 508 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: New York
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, February 14th (Thursday)

You know what is funny? I have family here this month visiting who I have not seen in awhile. They have friends down for a few days from the same area.

The stuff that comes out of their mouths now shocks me! It is so P/A, so manipulative, and then done with a laugh or a smile. It made me realize so much more how I grew up with P/A all around me. Thus the push pull with my H.

I too work hard on not responding. Or trying to anyway. Some days it still reverts back and can be very painful.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, February 19th (Tuesday)

How many of you...or maybe not, don't know?? Have a P/A in your life that uses sex or not having sex as a form of their P/A habits?

My H will say he wants sex but will not really initiate it. Skirts around the whole thing hoping I will then go to him. Kinda hard to explain but I have noticed it more and more lately.

Maybe its something else....who knows. Just weird or me once again catching onto something that never occured to me until now.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
wantreallove
Member
Member # 37534
Helpless  Posted: 8:02 AM, February 20th (Wednesday)

So here I am joining another I can relate thread because we fit into yet another category. I don't think there is much we don't fit anymore. Last night my WH invited me to attend his IC and when she talked with us about his A's she spoke about how he's PA and that's how a lot of his A's started. Wow so SA and PA. What next?? At least it gives me more to read up on and try to understand. I think I might go crazy trying to get "healthy". LOL.


Me,BS 32
SA fWH (masame5) 34
Married 12 yrs 6 kids age 17-1, and expecting #7
D-day 10/9/12 (caught him through fb chat) D-day #2 11/19/12 thru 11/21/12 (found out about all the rest of the A's.)
8 AP, 12-7-12 WH sober date

Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2012
Housefulloflove
Member
Member # 38458
Default  Posted: 1:43 AM, February 25th (Monday)

This would be my tribe, no doubt! My STBXH is like a walking textbook example. I can't believe it took 10 years of craziness an EA (with an ex in '05) and a PA for me to get that my husband is truly dysfunctional! I guess in my defense the traits did get MUCH more pronounced towards the end.


Me-29 Starting over
ExWH-29 Probable NPD, PA, manchild
3 beautiful young children
DDay 1/20/13 Admits PA
No remorse so NO R. DIVORCED! 9/2013

Posts: 541 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: USA
Smittygds
Member
Member # 38132
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, February 25th (Monday)

I'm a but confuzzled here. Please help. I see some of me in the description of passive aggressive behavior but I did not come from a family of nice, passive people. My mother was divorced with 7 kids and a raging alcoholic. My WW came from a very passive family who loves to live in passive discreetness. There is no doubt I made her feel small, stupid and insignificant and this coupled with her parents constant undermining of our relationship, specifically her poor "decisions", its no wonder she developed a LTA of 14 years and kept it well hidden for 20 years. So my question is, does that make me or her passive aggressive or who is the co-dependent? Or maybe I haven't provided enough info but I'd really like to understand what happened to two people who love each other but ended up here?


BS 54 Male
WS 46 Female
DDay 12/28/2012
LTA from 1993-January 2007 (14 years)

In relationship since Feb 1984
Married July 15, 1997

4 kids, 16YOD, 15YOS, 11YOT boys.

[This message edited by Smittygds at 9:06 PM, January 20th (Sunday)]


Posts: 64 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Las Vegas
Smittygds
Member
Member # 38132
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, February 25th (Monday)

To realitybites: My WS rarely, if ever initiates sex but always wants it. She has never said no to me, but never makes the move. I have complained to her for years regarding this. I'm trying to understand the P/A traits and I'm starting to get it. She's P/A and I'm co-dependent.


BS 54 Male
WS 46 Female
DDay 12/28/2012
LTA from 1993-January 2007 (14 years)

In relationship since Feb 1984
Married July 15, 1997

4 kids, 16YOD, 15YOS, 11YOT boys.

[This message edited by Smittygds at 9:06 PM, January 20th (Sunday)]


Posts: 64 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Las Vegas
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 8:51 PM, March 4th (Monday)

Bump


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
2oldforthis
Member
Member # 19825
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, March 4th (Monday)

Would love to talk to anyone who has alot of knowledge about PA behavior.


He did not see what he had in me, what I saw in him I did not have!

Love kills slowly.


Posts: 1633 | Registered: Jun 2008
2oldforthis
Member
Member # 19825
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, March 4th (Monday)

OMG!
Never comes to me and say "I want to go to XX restaurant tonight, does that work for you.

OMG!

He didn't know he didn,t mean it, He was SINCERE, on the surface.
Empty promises.

OMG!

Now you've changed the subject and in the process of you defending your habit of doing YY, you've blamed me for it. You're blame shifting. Let's stay on the topic of how I feel when you do your behavior YY. Do you remember what I even said about how I feel?

And low and behold, he couldn't remember. He was so busy building his defense, rationalizing what he does so that he's not at fault, that he never even heard me

.


He did not see what he had in me, what I saw in him I did not have!

Love kills slowly.


Posts: 1633 | Registered: Jun 2008
kansas1968
Member
Member # 32214
Default  Posted: 12:14 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

It is so odd. I have been fighting this battle since December 14, 2010. It has been a hell that I would wish on no one, except the OW. I have seen posts and comments over and over about passive aggresives, and never thought a thing about it. Finally, someone made a comment about a passive aggresive that caught my attention, so I googled and lo and behold, there was my WS in all of his shining glory. Not 100pct match, but enough to let me know that a passive aggressive is what I have been dealing with for the 45 years of my marriage. No wonder I thought we had a great relationship, a marriage to be envied. I am not even close to a passive aggresive, so I always smoothed things over. My God. What a relief.

I wrote a little essay tonight after this revelation, and I will share it with you. Maybe not the ending that everyone would wish for after an affair, but I am very happy with it.
*********************
Freedom

How can I express how sweet this final freedom is. To stop blaming myself, to cease the bloody attack on my soul. To know that it was he who faild, no I.

To know what I believed was an illusion, a ghost, and I cannot, will not, mourn a ghost.

To feel my feet on the foundation of my own making. To need no one to help me stand but myself.

What a relief myself and know that I am worthy of love. To know that even in my failures, I still had honor, loyalty, and, integrity.

To know that even though I will care for him, give him what he needs, that what I need will be provided by myself.

*************************

For newbies dealing with a passive aggresive, changes can probably be made in the WS. But in my case it is too late to make those changes in him, but I can certainly make changes in how I relate to him. I no longer have to have him to make me feel good about myself. God, what a relief.


Me - BS
Him - FWS
DD - December 14, 2010
Married 43 years 1/14/2011
Affair lasted 7+ years
Affair had been over for 2 years before I found out. OW sent me a letter.

Posts: 1276 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Kansas
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

Im new to this forum. I was a WS and posted there before. I made a huge mistake and got into a relationship with a MM. I've broken it off with him more times then i can count. I've done NC too. He is relentless in contacting me via txting and calling. I've been strong to not reply. Eventually, his love bombing and links to love songs and professing his deep love for me breaks me down and after 4 months of NC i caved and replied to his latest txt back in January. We've been in an EA for the last 2 months and i recently found the strength to go NC again and hes been relentlessly txting and calling me everyday since Saturday. I've been ignoring.

During the last 5 months i have done extensive research and reading and soul searching and i realize now my whys of the A. I also have realized that the fOM fits psychopathy and BPD to a T. This was a huge eye-opener and it explained why i kept returning to him even tho i knew it was wrong and the ultimate betrayal to my H and our M.

My H and i had issues 2 yrs prior to my A and we have been in MC for almost a yr now. Things were going very well, as i was slowly breaking free from the fog i was in from my A.

Now, this is why i am posting here. During all of the reading I've been doing, I've come to realize that my H of 17 yrs (we're together for 22) is extremely p/a. Now, i may at times have thought his behavior argumentative and confusing over the yrs but i am truly in love with him and overlooked it. But now i feel like a light bulb has gone off in me and H behavior is extremely destructive and manipulative. I never fully understood p/a. The main trait he always had was saying he was ok with something then after the fact, he would get mad, sulk and say he never really agreed. It would baffle me! I'd be like, you said ok tho?!?!? He also is very self absorbed and if things dont go his way he gets mad. He doesn't own up to things if they go wrong because he is wishy washy and won't make a definite decision. He holds a grudge forever, second guesses himself and has many regrets (job wise). I have always been supportivd of him. Hes often times said i am his rock. He never lets things go and brings up things from over 12 yrs ago (his devisions about jobs, family issues, etc) this is why i had decided with the help of our MC, to not tell of my A. I know that is not the popular decision here, but every situation is different and thats the decision ive made for now. In any event, My head feels like its going to explode. Having to deal with this behavior.

Sorry its so long. If you read it all the way, thank you


Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

sounds pretty convenient sarahsorry.

how are you going to stay NC with you AP that is constantly bombarding you? you aren't. you've proven that.

imo you need to come clean, so your passive aggressive husband can decide if he wants you anymore. also, so you can truly concentrate on your marriage. otherwise, you are just being selfish.

read here. you will see how well keeping secrets and lying has worked for others.

sounds to me like your MC isn't very good.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 510 | Registered: Mar 2013
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

Mike7
I am not saying my H p/a behavior is what made me have an A.

I have been pouring over these boards every single day since sept. i am human and yes i made a mistake. I never understood how people could cheat and break their vows. I realize i have problems too with how i deal with things. I too am broken.

I am learning about myself and my relationships. Everything isn't always so cut and dry. I have been emotionally abused for 17 yrs in my M but never realized it. Some days were ok but i never realized what he was doing and what was happening.

Let me state that i do own up to the fact that i ultimately made the decision to engage in the A. Knowing it was wrong.

I have come to learn many things about myself because of the emotionally abusive A i entered into.

I have a problem. I enter into relationships with men whom i feel if i love them enough and support them emotionally i can fix them. The kick in the head is that i am the one who needs fixing.

Im not sitting here crying victim. I have done a ton of work every single day to figure out what makes me tick. I am simply stating the fact that i realized my M is with a man who is p/a. It kills me.


Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
whatdoto
Member
Member # 28555
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

Here is a very good article describing the PA man. It is WH to a "t".

http://voices.yahoo.com/relationships-passive-aggressive-men-they-317967.html


At 2-1/2 years out, I am now fed up with this behavior. I am starting counseling tomorrow in order to help ME get emotionally healthy so I can make a final decision as to stay in this M or not.

I have asked WH to get his own counseling, but of course won't, he can't make a decision because of his PA.

I realize there are things I could do to minimize the damage and to protect my sanity, but you know what? I not going to do it. I don't want to do it. I shouldn't have to do it. Maybe that shows me just how much I love WH.

Good luck everyone...this is another type of hell - as if the A wasn't already enough.



"If your ideal image of yourself is in the future, it's going to stay there".

Posts: 1187 | Registered: May 2010 | From: Texas
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)

Thanks for sharing that article. It does describe my H. Although i am not controlling and overbearing. I am not assertive either. however, i do make many of the decisions because H never does. He always leaves it up to me to decide on everything and then will just complain about it afterwards. Very frustrating to say the least.

I would always say hes acting like a martyr (here they refer to the person as a doormat) He would say, i dont care whats for dinner, do what you want but then would say he wanted something else afterwards. He won't take the initiative about decisions with our kids. But will be the first one to question my choices afterwards. It makes me crazy how he can push my buttons. He does with with everything and is always second guessing himself.


Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)

you're afraid to tell him because you think he will leave.

that's not love.

that's passive aggressive.

he doesn't know what you've done. give him the chance to leave if he wants.

otherwise you're just a liar.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 510 | Registered: Mar 2013
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)

No quite the opposite Mike7. I dont believe my H will leave. What i fear is him holding this 1 mistake over my head for the rest of my life because he never lets things go.

Let me ask you, if you don't mind, are you in a relationship with a p/a person? Are you familiar with the mind games they play and how they twist things and make you crazy?

Did i lie? YES. One time. People make mistakes and i want to focus on my M and fix our problems. I know that will not be possible if my H knows of my mistake. Because I've known my H for 22 yrs.

You are calling me a liar and making my situation seem so black and white. Well, when you're dealing with a p/a person, there is no black and white.


Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)

I made a huge mistake and got into a relationship with a MM. I've broken it off with him more times then i can count. I've done NC too. He is relentless in contacting me via txting and calling. I've been strong to not reply. Eventually, his love bombing and links to love songs and professing his deep love for me breaks me down and after 4 months of NC i caved and replied to his latest txt back in January. We've been in an EA for the last 2 months and i recently found the strength to go NC again and hes been relentlessly txting and calling me everyday since Saturday."

a month from now, do you think you will still have NC?


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 510 | Registered: Mar 2013
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, March 6th (Wednesday)

Mike7
Im so sorry for what you're going thru. I've read your story. I know you must look down on me as a bad person with complete disregard. Im am on another site as well trying to get help and fix things. I have spoken to betrayed spouses as Well. I now do have remorse. I will admit in the beginning i had regret but i have been doing a lot of soul searching and a lot of research. I am catholic and I've gone to church and spoken to a priest and confessed to my adultery. It is out there and it is real. I wil tell you i am extremely disappointed in myself. I am having a very hard time forgiving what I've done. It was a grave mistake and i am not blaming anyone. I have personal issues that have gotten me into this situation whereas i feel compassion And the will to help people. When OM started talking to me we were just friends. There were no feelings whatsoever. We were friends for months and prior to that we had known each other over 10 yrs ago - again, just friends, we met on the train to work. I pegged him from back then that he was a player and all talk. When we met again 2 yrs ago bc he moved to town and our children go to school together i told my H. He knew i was friends with him back then and that we talked and txted recently. I dont know at what point i lost my boundaries. We were friends for months before anything happened. I know i allowed it to happen. I could have said no. I want to say, but fear i will get lashed at for it, but he was very manipulative. And there is a pull and a fog that people talk about. I hate myself for what i did and for getting in this situation. I am dealing with that and working through that. I would love to be able to block him from my phone but it would show up on the bill and my H would question it.
Will he try and contact me again? Yes probably because he is a manipulative piece of shit scumbag who has complete disregard for his W and family values. I also found out that i was not the only one, which hurt me bc he would tell me how much he loved me, blah blah. It was all bullshit. I was a complete idiot for entering into any of it. And even though the last 2 months of txting contact i have vehemently been explaining to him how wrong this is, i will never engage with you again, i love my H and i am working on my M - apparently it has fallen on deaf ears bc he still feels its ok bc he is unhappy at home. I only talked to him these last 2 months in a final attempt to help him see how wrong this is and to see if he has any regard for his family. Well, it failed. He has no intention of changing his ways. I tried to help him and i know perfectly well by being in contact with him again i could be caught and the A exposed. But i felt i had to try and help him.
I see his true colors and the person for who he truly is and the fact that his words have no meaning. So i will continue , on my own, to deal with getting him out of my life forever.

In answr to your question, in a month from now if he contacts me, NO i will not engage. I started to delete his txts without even reading them now.

I understand your pain is raw from the ultimate betrayal. I dont expect sympathy from anyone here, i am suffering with pain, remorse, guilt, disgust, and i am suffering by myself. I deserve it, because i got myself into this mess. But i am still in pain and am suffering.

I came here bc i am trying so desperately to fix my M and as I've said in all the reading I've been doing and in talking to my C I've realized that my H is p/a and i came here for help in how to deal with someone like that. That behavior is crippling and very destructive to one's self esteem and sanity.

I hope i didnt say anything to upset you. Im just trying to explain myself.


Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
suspicious247
Member
Member # 33014
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, April 23rd (Tuesday)

I posted on this thread two years ago. I said this is where I belonged. I now know that this behavior is abusive!!! It is a form of mental abuse. If you are struggling please read the book 'why does he do that'. It really opened my eyes

Nothing is EVER his fault, he won't make any kind of decisions, we can't have any kind of conversation because my words get twisted and we always end up in an argument, he criticizes me at every turn and on and on and on


This was my life for four years.

Read my post in the General forum called "he wont propose bc I dont view health as important as he does". Not a single person thinks he is salvageable. And PA defines him to a T!



Posts: 386 | Registered: Aug 2011
survivor_kh
Member
Member # 33738
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, May 8th (Wednesday)

Nothing is EVER his fault, he won't make any kind of decisions, we can't have any kind of conversation because my words get twisted and we always end up in an argument, he criticizes me at every turn and on and on and on

BTDT. It is a horrible feeling.


Surviving is important, thriving is elegant- Maya Angelou

you is kind, you is smart, you is important


Posts: 297 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Indiana
sarahsorry812
New Member
Member # 36825
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, May 9th (Thursday)

What's BTDT?

Posts: 34 | Registered: Sep 2012
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 7:05 AM, July 29th (Monday)

Just had to bump this thread back up for those of us still dealing with a P/A personality.

Just venting here. It is getting so hard to have days off together lately. Meaning I DREAD it. I don't have anything planned yet when he wakes up almost the first thing out of his mouth is "what are we going to do today?" and I have told him to please not ask this, like I am his cruise director or something? Then he won't think of anything HE wants to do, he will just sit around the house on his computer all day and tell me how bored he is.

He has done nothing with his sons who are now 24 and 28, now if THEY ask him to like lift something or work on something with the car he will do it, but he just sits there and waits for them to ask him..... or waits for me to "come up with something". He has no hobbies, he goes to work and comes home. Now if I think of something he will go but its like he has no mind of his own. Its rather strange.

[This message edited by realitybites at 7:08 AM, July 29th (Monday)]


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, August 4th (Sunday)

bumping for another member.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Walking
Member
Member # 40102
Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)

Thanks for bumping this thread. I just found out about my PA husbands multiple year affair. I have known about my husbands PA tendencies for years. I was expecting our first child and my husband who I had been married to for 9 years insisted I have an abortion. This went on all 9 mos. He kept crabbing that I was trapping him,. Now we had always intended to have children, so this reaction puzzled me. He stopped talking with me the whole of the pregnancy except for the random confrontation that I needed to get an abortion. I went to independent counseling when I was about 6 mos pregnant and the counselor opened my eyes to the fact that I was married to a PA and the personality traits i had that attracted him. I read the Wexler book at my therapists direction, and it reinforced my decision to have this child that I wanted so much, and tell him to leave. After 9 mos of walking out and disappearing, of not helping with anything around the house of not cooking a meal of not telling his parents a baby was on the way, of ninety percent silence, he decided to man up and drive me to the hospital so I could deliver the baby. My parents knew our marriage was hanging by a thread at that point. After our child was born it was like a restart. He started acting like the normal man I married for the most part. Fast forward 8 years, we are still married, the silence treatments now include me and the kids, he took a job that he travels a lot for absences of months at a time are not atypical. We have debt problems, not because we don't have money to pay, because he just won't do the bills. But he will with hold the bills from me to pay. He buys himself lots of expensive toys including multiple cars, without even asking me but he wants to know how I spend every penny. I have raised the kids on my own. He shows up when he wants and showers lavish gifts on them and then gripes when the house is full of toys they never wanted. He started withholding sex and affection about 5 years ago. I thought he might have had a physical problem. Turns out he has been having a multiple year affair with an older unattractive, crazy person who apparently took his excuses only so long, before she starting stalking our family. She went so fatal attraction, we needed a restraining order because she walked in our house uninvited and highly agitated and started confronting me in front of the children. My husbands reaction so far to this, mostly silence. trying to figure out what i am going to do. PAs don't change. Their spouses do. They fall out of love with them and try to minimize their affects on the children until they are old enough to at least recognize their PA parent needs to be handled a certain way.

I am grateful for a place to tell my story. There are lots of PAs out there. Many are incapable of change. It's important to know what you are dealing with though. It helps in formulating a plan, and hearing other people's stories help a person to realize they are not crazy, they are living with a disabled person that will not seek help or acknowledge any problem except his/her choice of spouse.

[This message edited by Walking at 7:46 AM, August 7th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Midwest
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, August 27th (Tuesday)

bumping up for those who might see their relationship mirrored here.


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
Ashland13
Member
Member # 38378
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, September 3rd (Tuesday)

This thread could have been written about Perv. Some of the similarities are astounding.

He grew up with alcoholism in his family and it was a big presence. He grew up also with only one parent, as one died young and it's a rather a large group also.

Things I'm learning about his growing up differ greatly from what I understood when I was an "outlaw" and went to occasions with him.

One thing that they did as a group was to decide that emotions are evil and should not be shown in front of anyone, that things like anger are not good and crying is worse. And so Perv grew up believing that he had to hide the emotional side of him from the world. He is one of the most stone faced people I've ever met...his siblings are the others.

In regard to the passive aggression aspect, it's believed by counselors that he learned that as a coping mechanism and part of it was fueled by his ego's need to be fed from the outside, rather than from self-love and things he did. He did things because he had guilt or to make up for something or to shut someone up, but it came across as different, because he didn't say a word, just did, all the while seething inside and hiding for years and years resentment that built until it toppled over and aimed itself all at me.

There are a few ways to tackle a relationship with a passive aggressive person and I think the hardest is to try to do it without being a doormat. I'm still working on that, though D is around the corner, we have 18 years to go being parents for as long as he stays interested.

What I've learned to do that helps is if I or we need something, I give the request and I do it in a multiple choice type of way, so that he can feel in control instead of me controlling him. If I have something to say to him, now I say it in an open-ended way, never, ever demanding and if I can I try to make it like it was his idea.

Yes, it can be it's own kind of game and it's not easy, but it beats more resentment or worrying that he is spewing more to OW about me. I suspect the PA part of the person will carry over to OW and the new life as well and well...hats off to you, OW. (sarcasm).


Ashland 13

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess


Posts: 2134 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
Housefulloflove
Member
Member # 38458
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)

One thing that they did as a group was to decide that emotions are evil and should not be shown in front of anyone, that things like anger are not good and crying is worse. And so Perv grew up believing that he had to hide the emotional side of him from the world. He is one of the most stone faced people I've ever met...his siblings are the others.

Wow..it sounds like our husbands grew up in the same family. Being around my (ex)in-laws is like being in the Twilight Zone. No matter what is going on, even if it's happening right there and in everyone's face, they never show emotion. They rarely talk about anything that is even slightly negative, and *if* they do mention things that would illicit strong emotions in most people, they say it totally stone-faced. It's like listening to them talk about someone they don't really know and about something they don't really care about even when it's some serious stuff and it's about their close relatives.

I thought they were a normal, loving family at first. But some of the shit I witnessed over the last decade make it clear that they project an IMAGE of that but it's FAAAAARR from reality.

In regard to the passive aggression aspect, it's believed by counselors that he learned that as a coping mechanism and part of it was fueled by his ego's need to be fed from the outside, rather than from self-love and things he did. He did things because he had guilt or to make up for something or to shut someone up, but it came across as different, because he didn't say a word, just did, all the while seething inside and hiding for years and years resentment that built until it toppled over and aimed itself all at me.

Our husbands seem SO similar it's amazing.

[This message edited by Housefulloflove at 4:40 PM, September 4th (Wednesday)]


Me-29 Starting over
ExWH-29 Probable NPD, PA, manchild
3 beautiful young children
DDay 1/20/13 Admits PA
No remorse so NO R. DIVORCED! 9/2013

Posts: 541 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: USA
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, September 7th (Saturday)

He did things because he had guilt or to make up for something or to shut someone up, but it came across as different, because he didn't say a word, just did, all the while seething inside and hiding for years and years resentment that built until it toppled over and aimed itself all at me.

Absolutely. ^^^^ Spot on.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
StillLivin
Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, September 10th (Tuesday)

OMG. I've read and skimmed most of the posts.
Wow, this is my husband to a T.
I read some of the articles. I always told him that he was sometimes P/A. His bio mother is. Her mother and grandmother were. Most of his siblings are co dependent like me. He inherited the trait, if that is at all possible.
Question. Is P/A something that can become worse over time? He has definitely become worse, the A alone says that. Other actions and behaviours also point to this.
I've only noticed one thread where the P/A WH made true changes.
Is it possible for a P/A person to get help and get better, not fixed, just better?


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2141 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, September 19th (Thursday)

perfect example of PA behavior happened today.

PAWH came home in the middle of the day and told me that our mortgage plus credit line (used to fix the house when we moved in) were too big,and he can't catch up...meaning pay off the credit line.

He informed me that he is looking into getting a new mortgage and lumping them together. I told him I didn't want us paying interest on the credit line part for the next 30 years, but we need to follow our original plan and try to pay it off.

He spoke with a banker, who suggested we not only lump the two together, but we reduce the loan to a 20 year loan. That would save us $ in the long haul, but our monthly payments would be GREATER than what we are paying already.

I pointed this out to H, and told him that he started the entire conversation with me based on the premise that our payments to the two are to high and he can't get ahead of them.

He got agressive, and said, "Make up your mind. Your're saying one thing then the other."

me: "I don't have to make up my mind about anything. You're the one saying conflicting things. I'm not going to make any decisions right now or any time soon."

him: "Settle down."

He managed to turn his whole manipulative idea into another "HBH is the problem."

Jerk! He is a PA, manipulative Jerk.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, September 21st (Saturday)

Example:

1 son who has traveled to another country for a few months posted something on facebook, my husband showed it to me while on his computer, I said why don't you comment on it, that looks cute. He pushed his computer towards me and said go ahead you write it, I then said "I thought you would since it is your computer and your facebook you are logged in" he then said he really wasn't going to do it but since I mentioned it then go ahead.

My response was to say never mind, if you did not want to do it then don't do it and don't ask me to write it for you. Its entirely up to you.

He threw up his hands and said "oh my God, unbelievable"

All I did was make a comment on how he should comment if he wanted to....and I am the horrible person because in the long run he wanted to comment, he just wanted ME to write it on his facebook for him.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
heartbroken_kk
Member
Member # 22722
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, September 21st (Saturday)

Oh, poor little muppet can't think of what to write, so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE write it for him! He's so helpless with stuff like this! You're so good at it, why don't you do it!

WHAT!??? What do you mean, you won't help me!?? You are such an awful person! Don't you SEE WHAT YOU DID You are trying to trap me! You are setting me up to look like an ass! This is all your fault! Why do you do stuff like this ALL THE TIME you are such a control freak!


BW then 46, STBXWHNPDPAFTG the destroyer of my entire life.
D-Day 1 1999, D-Day 2,3,4,5,6... 2009 thru 2011.

Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.


Posts: 1086 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: California
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, September 21st (Saturday)

^^^^

You scared me with how real that sounded when you wrote that! Its exactly how he felt I am sure.

All I did was mention how cute the facebook looked and how he should respond. I came across as the royal bitch somehow....

I do think it is so sad that he looks to me to do things for him in a very unhealthy way....but when I pull back and won't play that game anymore I am the horrible person.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)

Example:

Got a notice someone needs help to distribute 400 donation cans around town. They have to be dropped off (with the location where they will be at's permission) and checked/switched out twice by October.

I've never done this type of thing before, would like to help, but have no idea of what is entailed. My personality is to not do anything, because of the fear of the unknown. This realization really got to me today, and I started to cry out of disappointment with myself and my bad example to our children. We rarely help in this type of way, and here is a way to do it and my fear of the unknown has me frozen.

I shared this with WH (BIG MISTAKE.) I asked him if we should help, and if he has any experience with that sort of thing, to help encourage me to make the phone call. He said he doesn't know anything about fundraising, but he thinks we (meaning I and our children, not he) should help.

He suggested I call the coordinator, and find out how many her core group is placing themselves before they decided to pass the other 400 on to other volunteers.

This tactic made me angry. He wants me to call the person and grill them on how many they are placing versus how many they are asking others to place???? I told him it doesn't matter how many they are placing themselves, they put their need for volunteers out there to place 400. Can we help or not? It is none of our business, and not our place to question how many they are placing themselves. If they don't get enough volunteers, they will end up placing the rest themselves, or not at all. If they were lazy people, they wouldn't have put together the fund raiser at all. They have done everything themselves, all they need is help getting the donation cans placed in businesses.

I told WH, I wasn't asking for his help on how to judge, criticize or grill the organizers. I was asking for encouragement so I will have the courage to help them a little. I finally told him "You call and ask those questions if you want to."

He said he would, but I know he won't. He shouldn't. His stupid questions are irrelevant to whether or not anyone can help place cans. I'm not sure why his mind even went there...maybe trying to find something wrong with them to justify why people (he) shouldn't volunteer?

Of course he couldn't see what his mind created, and how he missed my entire point. He didn't encourage me, just got me off on an irrelevant tangent and then I was upset and churning inside...at him!

Forget PAWH and his fantasy concerns!!!!

I got so angry with PAWH for his back door cowardice, I decided to get over my own fear and face it.

I'll call the coordinator today and ask what she needs, and tell her I've never done it before, and know I can't do all 400, but based on what is required, our children and I will place a few.

PA is crazy making for the people counting on them to be straight forward, honest and supportive. PA people don't know their own thoughts and motivations. They are crazy making for those around them.


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)

YEA!!!!! I called the coordinator, and she will be dropping off 5 cans for me and our girls to distribute. I have already thought about one person who might keep one in her studio, our girl's piano teacher!! 4 more to go!


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Elaine2012
Member
Member # 36099
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Way to go HurtButHopeful?!!! Facing our fears can be such a big hurtle and you did great! PA is crazy making enough to make a person question what is wrong with them. It's so helpful in moving forward as understanding PA and even NPD begins and to then realize the dynamics of the life you are living.


Me- 53
WH- 57
Divorced - May 22, 2014
Dday - Blindsided July 2012
Married 35 years
4 adult DD's, 2 SIL, 3 grandchildren

Posts: 285 | Registered: Jul 2012
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 7:31 AM, December 17th (Tuesday)

Bumping this thread for newbies who might need this. You might see your own WS in here.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
Manningup26
Member
Member # 32645
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, December 31st (Tuesday)

Wow - a lot to read. Will certainly go back and look at a majority of this thread. I've been told that I'm PA - I don't think so - but I will consider it (as I'm always trying to improve myself). Appears I need a LOT of work. 'Course, do PA folks fair better with certain types of folks - or is it a 'defect' that NO ONE likes?!!


Thankfully God is married to the backslider!!
Married over 20 years
Nibbled my way into an affair
Climbing out the ditch into a healthier relationship

Posts: 75 | Registered: Jun 2011
tigereyes
Member
Member # 25318
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, January 21st (Tuesday)

Crap! Yet another group I belong in.

This is really too much. He is P/A, emotionally unavailable,conflict avoidant, has had 2 EA's with the most recent OW was my best friend! So I've got serial cheater, double betrayal, I'm a homeschooling SAHM. I need out of this situation like yesterday.


BW-40
WH-41 2 EA's that I know of, 1 with my "best" friend of 26 years
Married almost 22 years
4 kids - 21, 18, 14, and 11
He filed D 6/11/14
Fighting me for custody

Posts: 113 | Registered: Aug 2009
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, January 21st (Tuesday)

P?A often means emotionally unavailable & conflict avoidant anyway, because they are suppressing their anger and any other ''bad'' emotions and see you as the enemy. And if they do get angry or act out, blame it on you and the heap of unforgiven hurts that they hold against you. Unless they can own it (very unlikely) they can''t get healthy.

My WH calls all counselling and introspection ''navel gazing'' in a contemptuous voice. He''s running so hard from himself and he can''t even allow himself to consider genuinely engaging with something that might help, because it''s too scary. Oh he went to MC and IC, said the right words, but with a P/A you have to look at their actions over time. He''s still P/A: still blameshifts, procrastinates, obstructs,avoids etc etc. Saddest thing is,the only person he''s cheating now, is himself. He''s going to lose everything because he can''t face himself and get healthy.


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
tigereyes
Member
Member # 25318
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, January 21st (Tuesday)

My WH refuses transparency and IC. He says the MC told him he deserves his privacy. So he can have his privacy and I will have mine.

My privacy is going to cost him a lot of $$$.


BW-40
WH-41 2 EA's that I know of, 1 with my "best" friend of 26 years
Married almost 22 years
4 kids - 21, 18, 14, and 11
He filed D 6/11/14
Fighting me for custody

Posts: 113 | Registered: Aug 2009
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, February 7th (Friday)

P/A often means emotionally unavailable & conflict avoidant anyway, because they are suppressing their anger and any other 'bad' emotions and see you as the enemy. And if they do get angry or act out, blame it on you and the heap of unforgiven hurts that they hold against you.

I am feeling it is getting worse with mine lately. He is using the "blame" word alot lately. Or the phrase "well its your fault" and it could be about the simplest of things. It just slips into almost any conversation or he will say it like a "joke". But I find myself lately saying to him "did you just blame XXXX on me?" And he will smile or joke it off but its very weird.

I feel his unhappiness at his own life being my fault. Yesterday he really should have just laid down and rested all day as he has an injury that needs to rest....yet he WANTS to get dressed and go out to dinner or out to lunch or just go anywhere but sit at home. He is "edgy" I guess is the best word I can use. Not resting either, gets up and down all the time, this is a guy who could fall asleep like a log.


Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
ZooMa
New Member
Member # 11152
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, February 17th (Monday)

Hi, my current WH is emotionally unavailable & PA. When we married, he promised he'd stay on his meds (Zoloft) but, he didn't. We'd had problems before the marriage. I left & he got help. I didn't realize this was abuse until I started suffering from PTSD & the "shakes". I have been emotionally abused and controlled by this monster. He has me isolated up in the woods with no friends of my own around. He left our home in Dec 2012...disappeared for 10 days. (I was on anti-stroke meds & under strict Dr orders NO STRESS. he didn't care!) I had no idea where he was...still don't know. Then he started coming home 2 times a week to do "his" hobbies. He came in the door in Jan 2014 & said "I am divorcing You & my parents say money is no object". Guess what? I beat him to the lawyer & filed. (Thanks SI!! ) Now he's going around saying he's homeless & I'm divorcing him. WTF? He's had a place to stay for over a year. Trying to tell me he's sleeping in his truck. Really?? Maybe because his lawyer told him he can't be living with his gf?? She can have him.

One good thing I found to help me calm down is a couple apps I downloaded to my phone. One is binaural beats, and the other is sleep hypnosis. I feel like I'll never be whole again & I'll never trust anyone again.

edited:typo

[This message edited by ZooMa at 6:34 PM, February 17th (Monday)]


Posts: 33 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: NLP MI
southsidecali
Member
Member # 22752
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

havent seen this one in awhile!

Posts: 743 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: CA
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 6:48 AM, June 29th (Sunday)

Glad this one got bumped up. Lots of good info.

Posts: 5608 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 2:19 PM, July 13th (Sunday)

Ugh, just need a moan:

Over the last month he has ''lost'' something of the boys every time he returns them. I''ve made him buy replacements but he''s still doing it It''s not even so much the ''losing'' stuff. It''s the not telling me, lying by omission thing and waiting until I figure it out, then denying it, then making it sound like he''s doing me a favour by replacing things...

...Oh and having a dig at me telling me ds was too worried to tell me something had been lost, implying I''m a bad parent that ds is scared to talk to? Whereas the truth is that ds had been told if he lost that thing completely again (had left it places 3 times that week and lost it completely 3 times this term), I would take the money for it (low cost but important item) out of his pocket money, so that he would understand that only he would lose out. [ds is showing many signs of P/A, I''m learning to let him bear the consequences of that, rather than give him negative emotional ego kibbles]. STBXH then kept offering to pay for that item, despite me having explained what I''d said to ds. He often tried to undermine my parenting like this when we were together - trying to cast me as bad cop to his good cop.

No, you doosh! I''m keeping my parenting boundaries and teaching ds that:

1. When I say something, I follow through on it
2. Actions have consequences

Whereas,the boys have already worked out how to manipulate STBXH:

1. Tell daddy you miss mummy. Daddy gives you chcolate/biscuits. Keep telling daddy you miss mummy. Get more chocolate/biscuits [in my house,they get a hug]
2. Daddy says you can''t do something. Tell daddy you feel sad about mummy. Cry. Daddy lets you do it. [in my house they get a hug for feeling sad and told they still can''t do it]
3. Tell daddy that mummy won''t let you do/have something. Daddy gives you something to make up for it. [in my house they get told I''m not in competition with daddy. I love them and don''t need to compete. Daddy''s house, daddy''s rules, mummy''s house, mummy''s rules]

And everytime he plays these P/A games it just shows how he hasn''t changed.


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
lostsuol
Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, July 13th (Sunday)

Softcentre:
Ugh, just need a moan:

1. When I say something, I follow through on it
2. Actions have consequences

Whereas,the boys have already worked out how to manipulate STBXH:
1. Tell daddy you miss mummy. Daddy gives you chocolate/biscuits. Keep telling daddy you miss mummy. Get more chocolate/biscuits [in my house,they get a hug]
2. Daddy says you can't do something. Tell daddy you feel sad about mummy. Cry. Daddy lets you do it. [in my house they get a hug for feeling sad and told they still can't do it]
3. Tell daddy that mummy won't let you do/have something. Daddy gives you something to make up for it. [in my house they get told I''m not in competition with daddy. I love them and don''t need to compete. Daddy's house, daddy's rules, mummy's house, mummy''s rules]

Just want to let you know that your post has been read. I empathize... and think your parenting style is perfect. {{{Softcentre}}}


Posts: 810 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 1:58 AM, July 14th (Monday)

Thank you. It''s maddening.

If I posted that somewhere else, anyone who hasn''t been subject to a P/A relationship would think it was petty. But having someone constantly try to undermine/sabotage you in small ways, casting you as the''bad guy'' when you just want to work as a team, is truly frustrating. And there''s nothing I can do except set boundaries, keep to them and let the consequences fall on him. And none of that stops his behaviour...


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
meleanoro
Member
Member # 6210
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, July 14th (Monday)

Softcentre, it is nearly impossible to explain to someone who hasn't been with a P/A the damage it causes. I think this is part of why many of us wonder for years, "is it me?"

I am frustrated on your behalf and thankful I don't have kids to do P/A battle over. You sound like an amazing mother!


Me: Tired BS.

Posts: 161 | Registered: Jan 2005
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

You know I did think it was me for such along time.

Now I''m not perfect, I definitely have my flaws and I know them. So I bought into his whole blame it on Softcentre thing. I believed I must be a horrible person and why did he put up with me? I worked on myself, I changed (still not perfect )...and his attitude towards me got worse. The less I allowed myself to react to his P/A games, the more resentful he became. I still didn''t know about P/A back then, so I was completely confused. And that''s what led me to suspect an A.

Now that I know about P/A (he was diagnosed by our MC), it has really helped. I''m still not perfect, still have my own issues, but now I see how much he manipulated me, how far he did me down to others, how he set me up to be blamed for his A. How I''m not sure if he is capable of loving those closest to him, when he wants to resent them so much.

But even though we''re heading down the D route...he still keeps playing these P/A games. You know, it''s much easier since he left? It still hurts, I still miss parts of him, but I do not miss the continual mind games and being pushed into the ''bad guy'' role.

Not looking for a relationship yet. But one day, I will be with someone who wants a partner and not a rival.


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
meleanoro
Member
Member # 6210
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Hi softcentre,

Oh, I, too, did all those things you describe.

3-4 years ago, I went on a book binge. A lot of it related to how to be better in bed, etc. It was like clothing shopping: keep trying on new "mes" and maybe one would eventually fit.

It never did.

Like you describe, the more I changed, the more pissy he got. And around this time, I tried desperately to engage in straightforward talks with him. He shut me down, every time.

I am pretty certain with a P/A we are damned either way: speak up for our needs/concerns, and we get the silent treatment, resentment, all that crap. Ignore it, and he gets what he wants (non conflict) while we starve off crumbs,

Thank you for sharing your life is better now. I'm in limbo for various mostly logistical reasons, but some days I wonder if I get enough from the marriage versus the perceived pain of leaving.

Then I remember how absolutely peaceful I feel when I have the house to myself. It's palpable.

Thanks for chatting here. :)


Me: Tired BS.

Posts: 161 | Registered: Jan 2005
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Hi Meleanoro

He left. I couldn''t have left him at that stage (now, I could). I think he finally realised that thanks to SI, I wasn''t going to rugsweep...and there was no way that he wanted to face what he''d done and dig deep. Our new MC had also made it clear that she wanted us to talk through what he did, first, before working on our (or as he thought of it, my) problems with our M. So he did the whole threatening to leave thing for three weeks.

Except that this time, I told his parents what he''d done (I did think he was about to walk out & wanted them to have some warning). Exposing him to them was too much for him. His reputation is all important, it made him very angry (not that he''d admit it of course ) . And once I''d told them and they were supportive of me, it gave me a small amount of backbone. I spelt out once again what I needed for R. He railed against it, like a teenager being grounded. So I calmly told him that these were boundaries that he could chose for himself, or choose to leave, but not to blame me for them.

That last week I was so deathly calm in front of him (sobbing when he wasn''t there). I knew he was going to leave. I needed it to be his decision. I felt like the last few months he''d been trying to get me to chuck him out, to make me the ''bad guy'', the one breaking up the family. I wasn''t going to let him get away with that. He had to choose to leave. He had to admit that choice to our children,rather than blame me (I sat with him when he told them). I had wanted to reconcile, to keep us together. He broke our M and he broke our children''s hearts and even though he has rewritten history since then, he had to bear the consequences of that choice, at least.

But when he left, it was like dday all over again. It hurt for a long time. I was scared about whether I could possibly cope. I did keep trying to have deep and meaningful conversations with him, trying to love him back fora good few months afterwards. That was my codependency talking.

It turned out that life is easier without him. There are different stresses, but the massive weight of living with an unremorseful blameshifting manipulative P/A WS has gone. And I''m a better parent without him. He used to undermine my boundaries with the children constantly. He used to ''lose'' and ''accidentally'' break their and my things. He would refuse to commit to doing things with them, or make a promise and then break it. Now, I know where things are, my boundaries are firm and the children know where they stand. Things get done around the house because I just get on and do them, without having to deal with passive resistance or sulking. I have done more decorating etc in my house in one year, than in the last 5 years. And that''s with a whole lot less disposable income. I manage my own money well and have no debt apart from a mortgage and student loan...managed to pay off half our overdraft within 4 months, so that he''d remove me from the account. He has huge amounts of debt in his name, but it''s no longer my responsibility to sort that mess out.

I never would have thought I''d say this when he walked out. But life is much better now...for me at least


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
Shero
Member
Member # 44041
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, July 21st (Monday)

Wow, I'm not even sure my husband is a wayward (I am working on finding out, thanks SIers for helping out), but I know he is a KISA and P/A. At home I am the bullying, yelling control freak. But guess what, no one else thinks I am except him. Wth?

I've backed off wanting things "my way"; dishes put away wet, lawn weed-whacked instead of mowed (we now have blackberries growing out of the grass :), heavy-lifting of furniture delayed for months, estate planning delayed for years, etc--I just don't care anymore. Actually, I do care, but it's not worth the effort anymore. Hired a gardener after 20 years in this house :)


Posts: 59 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: California
paperweight
New Member
Member # 44151
Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

I'm married to a PA man who claims he understands he is PA and wants to work on changing that behavior, but his actual behavior tells a different story. He has a history of lying to not only me, but his therapist. I feel at this point he is just saying he "gets" that he is PA because he knows his therapist and I believe that to be the case, and so he says it. But when it was first posited to him he may be PA (years ago), he was very resistant and offended. When I try and gently point out examples of recent PA behavior he denies all of them. I'm just feeling at the end of my rope and without any hope. Most of what I have read (on the internet) also seems to indicate changing PA behavior is near impossible. So, what the H am I doing?

Posts: 1 | Registered: Jul 2014
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, July 25th (Friday)

People who haven''t lived with a P/A will never truly understand how much they crush our self worth, whilst we appear to be the strong controlling ones.

My original MC was fooled for a couple of months, then she suddenly figured it out and called him on it. She then became his IC (which is why we ended up going to a different MC a few months later, the one who wouldn''t let him manipulate). In the first lot of MC and then (I assume) in IC, he said all the things she wanted to hear, but his actions didn''t match.

He ended his IC before she wanted him to,but he told me she''d said he was fine. NOT TRUE. You see, I''d contacted her the week before to ask what we could do about getting some more MC. She said that either she could stop IC with him and he could find a new IC, or she could find us a new MC. I asked how much more IC he''d need (to see if we could wait) she said he needed a lot more. I knew he''d never go to a new IC, so I asked for her recommendation for the new MC. STBXH didn''t know about this conversation. I called him on it. He just refused to admit the truth.

Some P/A are very astute and can mimic the right responses,verbally, but they can''t stop themselves wanting to passively resist. You have to look at their actions, not their words. Oh and they will try and deflect you from doing that, anyway they can.

[This message edited by Softcentre at 5:00 PM, July 25th, 2014 (Friday)]


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' - likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - my friend 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - EA/PA - 'Fat Bottomed Girl'


Posts: 737 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
Topic Posts: 440