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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 20
yearsofpain25
♂ Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@SWAT70 - I empathize. I know I try not to let my FOO influence my thinking, but how can it not? This past Oct my mother said a bunch of shit that triggered me massively, which is why/how I came to SI. A flood of emotions that I had never dealt with before brought me to my knees. My blood pressure went through the roof. My "mind movies" of having to scrape my brother's brains off of anything I wanted to remember him by came back. Having to fix and remodel his crime scene bedroom. The abuse I took from my mother. My absent father. Having no idea what love was really like. It all hit me hard between Oct and Jan. So much so that during my physical my doctor was ready to send me to the ER for my blood pressure. I also faught going to IC for 25 years. That would be the last place I would ever go. I have always been everyone else's rock. Until finally my doc made me go. Then I got slapped with the PTSD diagnosis among other things. I fought that label hard. I'm not a combat vet. So maybe I have one trauma in my brother's suicide. But that's all I was willing to concede too. Until IC read back a total of 14 trauma's that I had suffered and she told me the effect of each one. I was floored. So now I listen. Now I'm learning. Now I'm looking for a new IC because I'm past what this one could do for me. But, still reluctantly, I'm asking for help. Because I don't want my kids growing up the way I did. I want to be a better father and husband. I know how difficult it is to even admit these things about ourselves. Know that you are doing the right thing. That fear about being abandoned, does get better. Regardless of WW, you do have a family that loves you and will be there for you no matter what.

yop

eta - typo

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 1:28 PM, June 24th (Tuesday)]


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2111 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
♂ Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eh... I need a drink and MM is away on business so,

anyone else for a dram? My vacation just started. Heading up to Maine in the a.m.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2111 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
♂ Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@LS - I know it's hard brother. I could counter argue that your DD will be worse off if the two of you stayed together. The environment could grow toxic which is what happened to me. I wish I didn't see half the shit I saw growing up. And I agree with cvs. It is a game of what if's. Know that you are doing the right thing for both you and DD. Get as much custody as you can. You be the one to teach her what's right and what's wrong in your life. Going to be difficult because your WW is going to teach her the selfish method, which would happen no matter if you were together or D.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2111 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
SWAT70
♂ Member
Member # 42915
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

YOP. I could use one.

Where in Maine? I'm not technically on vacation until Monday but off until July 7. We're leaving for Bar Harbor Saturday night. Taking everyone to a very nice and large rental we stayed at before. Can't wait for the lobster.


Me BH-45. WW-39
DD-11 DS-6 DS-3
D day was Valentines day 2014. Talk about a trigger.


Posts: 333 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: Down range
yearsofpain25
♂ Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@SWAT - Nice. Lobster is on our agenda as well!

We're staying in Kennebunk and doing some day trips up and down the coast. Bar Harbor is beautiful. My wife and I spent some time up there on one of our anniversaries. Hope you guys have some much needed R&R.

ETA - There are a lot of great breweries in Maine and around the Portland area in particular. Make sure to stock up on some good brews while you are there.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 1:58 PM, June 24th (Tuesday)]


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2111 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
outside4me
♂ Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

YOP: you post the best scotch porn. Love me some Balvenie!

I read the posts here and think, "Man, these fellers are all kinds of strong!" I have a rug sweeping conflict avoidant TY that had an EA, and it tore me up. False R, but it didn't take long to figure that out. No kids, so no collateral damage. The shit some of y'all are dealing with (quite well, I might add) is so much greater than the plain vanilla of my betrayal, I feel like a girly man with my pain. Tip o' the hat to those who R'd and made their peace with it... you're a better man than I, Gunga Din. For me, I know I'll never trust TY again, so D is the path I've chosen. It is the right one for me, and I can't wait to start anew. Mad respect for y'all, brudders!


Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
yearsofpain25
♂ Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@OS4M - coming right up. This is a handpicked barrel of Balvenie via my whiskey club. And it's killer. Here's John Hansell's testing notes:

The shit some of y'all are dealing with (quite well, I might add) is so much greater than the plain vanilla of my betrayal

I'm going to pay forward to you the same advice that has been given to me several times here on SI because I have a tendency to minimize my shit. Don't minimize your pain. To you, it's the worst pain in the world. Everyone just has different versions of it. I personally can't imagine going through the pain of R or D. Most of the time I don't feel like I belong here for that very fact even though people keep telling me otherwise.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 2:34 PM, June 24th (Tuesday)]


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2111 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
Sproket
♂ Member
Member # 41262
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know my WW didn't think about our S. So sad because he made so much progress in school. Constantly working with him, he developed enough to not need behavior therapy and Physical therapy. I still take him to speak but for an autistic child he moved on to becoming fully functional.

He doesn't adapt to change well at all.


ME:BS 40
W: WW 40
M: Oct 2009
D.D Nov 2, 2013

Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: VA
Sproket
♂ Member
Member # 41262
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny as I wrote this stuff from the waiting area for speech therapy session


ME:BS 40
W: WW 40
M: Oct 2009
D.D Nov 2, 2013

Posts: 80 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: VA
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Got my furniture. WW sent the "negotiated" portion of the furniture (where negotiated meant "whatever WW doesn't want or thinks it's trash").

As my dad was helping her yesterday she mentioned "I also had to do the last move myself as BS had a broken foot".

She of course didn't mention why she's doing this move "herself".

PS: Neither of them were my fault. But I guess it's important for everyone to know why she is the suffering one.

My nice home office desks are in though. I put one in the play room and the other one in the bedroom (eeeek!) so I can work there at night uninterrupted (no longer have the room for a home office). Her new house apparently is at least as big as our old one - "she needs the space for her mother" - who lived with us already. Rent is equally as big. She'll be house-poor I guess. Not my problem, but she's still liable for half the medical bills for our SN son.

I asked for some days off starting tomorrow, to clean everything very well (she hasn't been cleaning the house apparently, it's all dusty and dirty even though it comes straight from the marital home), sort out my kids' stuff in their drawers, and get the furniture in a final place. My cousin is coming to visit tomorrow afternoon, too, so hopefully I'll be done cleaning by then.

Maybe this belongs in NB - just letting you Menz know that the bedroom is now the man cave, too. A man's domain, with desk, computer and guitar. I may eventually sell the living room furniture - which is too big for my space anyway - and get leather couches.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@Sproket, I have a child with severe A too.. My WW thought of him as a human shield. It was tragic.

She was studying for "child development", dropped out with a year to go yet left DS with babysitters most of the time while she "found herself". Now that she has found herself with OM between her legs, we are on the track to D. OM is apparently no longer in the picture. She now says she wants to go back to school and finish.

But essentially most of her "worry about her son" has been worrying that a) He won't adapt well at my house, b) She needs more $$$ than usual (even though she has plenty from a trust she shares with her mom 50/50) and for me to pay 100% of the medical costs, because "he is abandoning us", and c) Apparently bragging about the fact that she could use the SN kid as a bargaining chip to OM, who threw her under the bus and texted me about it (I didn't answer the text, of course, but sent a screenshot to the L, who is very happy about the text).

I work full time, and DS is with me 50% of the time. I don't have a lot of free time but I make sure I'm there starting at 6pm every night he's with me, and cook things that are both healthy and he likes (crunchy greens, pastas, rice, very thin, very well done steak, and gummy bears for dessert - my son is a very healthy eater). And from what I hear he does way better in my house. I just know he does great, and regularly sleeps through the night with me, which he doesn't with her. They're very perceptive, he must just feel the stress and madness of her fog.

So in a sense I wish she hadn't thought of him. I can't decide what I'm more upset about. Her indifference to my suffering or her hiding behind the most innocent, most hurting of our family.

Anyway, DS is still on ABA, and on OT. He get speech at school but it's likely he'll never speak. He's a happy one though and loves to smile at people, so I'm still very hopeful as he's only 10yo.

Cheers man, keep in touch, I know the SN adds a whole new dimension to this.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nice dram, yop! Balvenie is great, and that bottle looks particularly tantalizing. Cheers!

I'll be heading up to Estes Park tomorrow. On vacation all week.


Posts: 7123 | Registered: Dec 2010
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn, GP. I feel the pain in your post, brother. I also feel the love for your son and your determination to be a great father.

"he is abandoning us"

They really do say idiotic things. Last night my wife said that I didn't love her any more.

Isn't it nice to be lectured on love and commitment by women who think that the solution to their marital woes is to play hide-the-salami with another man?

When they say stupid things, just consider the source.

Congrats on getting the man cave set up! A pic or two would be nice.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1390 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
BAMAC
♂ Member
Member # 39334
Default  Posted: 3:30 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They really do say idiotic things.

Right? When I was still talking to her, I got the 'I felt abandoned' thing too. This coming from the person who packed her shit up and walked out the door three times.


DDays - 1/26/2013 | 3/23/14
Divorced 7/10/2014

Posts: 83 | Registered: May 2013 | From: TX
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Sal, there's definitely still a lot of pain and anger here. It comes and goes.

The anger does give me energy which I use to move furniture and shit.

When it goes life is good though. Very stressful, but good. My IC says there's no way but through it. So I feel the feelings, post here, vent with people I trust, and take care of my house and children.

The problem I think is that so much of what STBXWW does nowadays feels like manipulation, and it's a constant. And I never cared before as I was na´vely in love with her and I always made the proper deference to her as a couple, but now that we're S and on our way to D the manipulation is out of line, and it just pisses me off.

For example, on Saturday she sent the xbox over. All fine and good, but she apparently then told DD8 that I would set it up for her and have it ready right away. I guess she assumed that I would immediately start using it. But I didn't, decided to leave it in the box for a bit as I have a lot of work, writing, 'main computer' stuff and other stuff going on right now, and I was still waiting for the furniture (why set it up twice?). So now DD comes very excited that I am going to have this thing ready for her, because after all, "mama said". I couldn't help myself and told her, more or less shortly, "yes honey, mama says a lot of stuff, but I have a lot going on right now and I won't be setting it up until maybe this weekend".

So now I'm the bad guy for not setting up the stupid thing for DD, and of course she will be able to say how horrible I am. And if I set it up, she "won" because she controlled what happens in my household and it's just an invitation for more and more of this behavior (we share babysitters and I am convinced the babysitter tells her the play by play of everything that happens with me - I want to try hiring a different one). So she puts DD in the middle by making assumptions and pushing, pushing, pushing. I do no such thing about her household. I don't ask, I don't tell, other than "how was your time, honey?" and a polite "I'm glad you had fun". I go out of my way to not make assumptions of be judgmental in front of my kid, even if what she did may upset me.

But it seems every time we have a kid switchover there's something that 'mama said'. It could be DD8 manipulating as kids do, but somehow I don't think so, and verifying makes me paranoid and break NC so I don't do it. So I just quiet down and continue the plan I had - setting the xbox up on the weekend, after all the rest of the furniture has been organized and I know exactly where it will go and why.

I'm not wrong, am I? I'm just trying to enforce some structure in my household, without her constantly intruding in the peace and the order I need right now to heal. She doesn't have a job and she's a woman so she can constantly be thinking of little passive-aggressive "signals" like this (but apparently not enough free time to think how healthy this behavior is for DD8), but I have a job and a million things to do, so I'd rather use actual words, which she refuses to use.

I'll post some pictures in a day or two after it's been cleaned a bit.

Sorry guys, I'm in a very venty mood today. Lots of triggers came in with my furniture I guess.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 4:23 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal: Last night my wife said that I didn't love her any more.

Do we? Do any of us love our WW any more?

For me. and IMO. To be intimate with someone requires trust. And without intimacy can there be love?

Trust is the foundation of everything. WWs LTA shot trust all to hell and back. I dont trust her any more. On my best days I might trust her somewhat but not completely.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
HeartFullOfHoles
♂ Member
Member # 42874
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You nailed the importance of trust Razor. I sent this (excerpt) to our MC this morning.
It feels like she thinks I am supposed to just forget it ever happened, but doing that is rug sweeping to me (good and short reconciliation versus rug sweeping link http://affaircare.com/articles/reconciliation-v-rugsweeping/). To not fully deal with the issues means trust will not be rebuilt and trust is required if we are going to reconcile/stay married.

SWAT, It's good to see you are doing better. You had us worried.

HFH


BH - Divorcing
D-Day 4/28-29/2012
Two daughters in HS

Posts: 150 | Registered: Mar 2014
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 5:05 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not wrong, am I? I'm just trying to enforce some structure in my household, without her constantly intruding in the peace and the order I need right now to heal. She doesn't have a job and she's a woman so she can constantly be thinking of little passive-aggressive "signals" like this

You're not wrong in my book. You are establishing structure, peace, and a safe, drama-free space for your kids. And if your WW is like mine, you'll never win the passive-aggressive battle with your wife, anyway. Mine has used passive-aggressive "signals" in place of real communication throughout our marriage. Last night, she told me that she tried to tell me about her dissatisfaction with the marriage before she cheated, but apparently I didn't get the message or act on it if I did. My memory is that she griped about me to others behind my back and occasionally hit me with generalized gripes about something ("your kids are driving me crazy", "sometimes I feel like running away" "I could use some help"). If she ever communicated with me in a direct, clear way, honest to God I can't recall the conversation.

I think our biggest problem is that I look at our life and our family pre-DDay and honestly don't see what made her so unhappy. She actually didn't have it that bad. Many women would trade places with her. Hell, a lot of women would do anything for healthy kids and a man who doesn't beat the shit out of them every night. But she just never seemed happy our entire marriage. She never seemed...committed. Every time we moved I'd have the hardest time getting her interested in setting up the nest, decorating, that kind of thing. I'd be the one who'd have to start hanging pictures on the walls and arranging furniture. It's like she always knew that to her, it was just a temporary arrangement. I'll probably never know why. Not sure she even knows why.

Sometimes I think what made her unhappy is marrying a man she didn't really love and feeling stuck in the marriage all those years. It hurts, but I'll take a hurtful truth over lies and illusions any time. She denies it, but looking back on it she never seemed to take much joy in our relationship outside of the first year. Oh well, you can lead a mare to water...

Sal: Last night my wife said that I didn't love her any more.
Do we? Do any of us love our WW any more?

Well Razor, I can honestly say I loved who I thought she was. But I now know that woman didn't actually exist. Or if she did exist, she checked out on the marriage a long time ago. So, good question with no easy answer. Don't you actually have to know someone before you can honestly say that you love her?


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1390 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@Razor, that's a fantastic question.

On my way to D, love is fading now. But I do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there was a time where I loved her - nay, was in love with her still, but I didn't trust her. I trusted her completely DDay-1, even though re-reading my journal with today's brain shows a lot of red flags. In fact trusted her so much I missed all these red flags that I even wrote about completely - marital security can be its own fog, it seems. Now I understand that she had stopped being emotionally intimate with me a long time ago, and she felt I had too, though I didn't think I was and I think she's full of it (maybe there's just not much to my feelings when I'm doing well emotionally). In the meantime, I thought it was "mature love".

Love is now fading. As she's not even bothering to hoover me (don't know if to feel depressed about it - am I not worth keeping? - or happy that I will be completely free soon).

But this time apart has made me realize and evaluate the entire time we were together, and I do remember there was a time I was everything to her, just like she was everything to me until fairly recently, and I remember how that felt like and how she behaved then. As she stopped intimating with me on everything except physically, she seems to have continued trusting me, at least to stay for the kids - that's why she was so pissed when I finally left.

So I think trust and love are orthogonal in that you can have one without the other. But it will make you crazy not having both, because without both you don't have the intimacy of a marriage.

I left hurt, while I was still in love with her. Now I'm not sure what I feel. If she truly changed I could decide to start a relationship purely out of Christian and parental duty to my children, and hope to recover love first - and once I saw her behavior turn back to "early marriage" behavior, I'd evaluate and probably feel love for her again - *after* i saw the way I remember her behaving again, over a long period of time. Now self-protection is paramount, even if she is mad about it (and her being mad about it is in itself a huge red flag still). I can't love her if I don't love myself enough to protect my own heart.

And I don't know if I'd ever be able to recover trust. And for a while at least, she'd have to be ok with it.

Mute point since she's not anywhere near being ready for that, but it's definitely something I've thought about and am attempting to parse.

There's also different levels and venues for trust. I certainly lost trust of her with other men, and with OM in particular. I insisted on NC, she couldn't handle it. So that's the dealbreaker. But I still trust her with my kids, mostly. I still trust her not to write bad checks out of the joint account (which we will close soon). I check my credit report every once in a while, but I trust her not to go on a spending binge (less than I trust her with the kids, and she did go on a small one, but she certainly didn't destroy me financially though she could have) - maybe just because lawyers are involved and we will be closing those accounts soon, but I am in no rush to finish the D just to close the cards. So when we say we lost "trust", there's a lot of qualifiers for that.

Which is good, as a cornerstone of building R is to start trusting on one piece at a time, trust but verify, until with her good behavior over time you can put your complete trust on everything again.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

marital security can be its own fog, it seems.

Raised hand.

My wife was dragging her ass home after 2 a.m. on Friday nights, finding excuses to leave our office 2 hours early, texting excessively, etc. My trust was so complete that I never tied this to affair behavior. She knew that I trusted her completely, and really played me for a fool.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1390 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
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