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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 20
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 12:20 AM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Feeling like crap (I think I caught my son's stomach bug), and I answered the phone to STBXWW. We discussed logistics and the move, and she asked me how I was doing. I said fine, unconvincingly. Next I went to IC. We talked about everything that's been going on. He says I'm still not sure I want D. He is right.

He says there's nothing wrong with that, but that if I go back in I have to do it with my eyes open of WW's state of mind.

I have a dilemma. STBX was with a foster family for a couple years who we have kept in contact with and are essentially our family as well. Int his family, W (her foster mom) was cheating. The H ignored it, didn't even mention it. The day the last kid left the house (WW and I were already married and had been for a while), he left her, saying he had been ignoring it to honor his kids and give them a good upbringing, and so the money would continue growing, but he was never ok with it. They both have M other people since.

This man held on for about 12 years. Essentially letting his W fuck another man whenever she wanted and rugsweeping it.

I had promised myself that I would never abandon my kids. I have them 50%, but they are still hurting little kids of D, which I never wanted for them. It pisses me off that she saw this happen and might be thinking I will stay the same way her foster parent did, because otherwise I'd be breaking a promise to my kids. It's emasculating and I hate it.

I want to D. And I don't want to D. YKWIM?


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WellPlayed))) sorry you're feelin sick right now, I hope it passes, and you're feeling better soon!

In a way, I feel like saying almost the same thing to you and Jrny)))

You've probably heard a bunch of times on here that "It's better to be from a broken home than in one" right?

Taking care of yourself, standing up for yourself - I'm sorry that is framed as breaking a promise to your kids. It's like be divided against yourself, chained like Prometheus, having your insides eaten out.

I really wish there was a way to reframe it to your gut that it's not you breaking the promise, she did! - Why should you then pay the price of self abnegation?
and
Don't think the kids don't see what you're suffering!
What's it like to grow up under half-a-man?

These are not easy answers.

there are 3 things that have kept me around this long and working this hard
...
1.
"security" of my life

It is good that this is identified. It means that decisions based on this are "fear-based". Fear of the unknown future, etc. Seeing that, you can begin to learn to not let fear guide your decisions.

2. A.

and the simple fact I love her

The answer here is to love yourself. First. This is all hard as fucking hell - but there it is. It's that fucking simple, and that fucking hard.

2. B.

and want our relationship to be better.

This is where the model of "What relationship?" "You killed it!" Might better serve you. In truth, she smashed the dishes. You're kneeling on the floor, bloodying your knees, trying to piece old, broken shit together.

Maybe standing up, saying "FTN! Buy me some new dishes bitch, or GTFO!" would be a better plan. (At least your knees will thank you)...

I'm sorry, this is all painful as fuck to me.
The journey from the brain to the heart is different for everybody, once they meet, there you find your gut.


Posts: 6591 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
doubleboggy
♂ Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've learned to trust my instinct...it has almost never been wrong.

Your gut is never wrong. Especially on this subject.

What happened to me (and maybe you too), is while my wife was lying to me, I knew better. But, I was lying to myself just as much because the truth was so bad. Believing her lies and believing your own lies, doesn't make the problem go away, it just drags this crap out longer. This process is already long enough.

Easier said than done though!

[This message edited by doubleboggy at 9:30 AM, June 5th (Thursday)]


D Day: 3/31/13

Posts: 106 | Registered: Sep 2013
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's emasculating and I hate it.

Sums most of the outcomes from these situations. I have toyed with the idea of a D many times, even recently.

I learned that, "staying for the kids" isn't enough to stay M. Even if we D, they are still my kids and I will be as involved in their lives as I can. Nothing is going to change that. Sure I won't see them everyday, but they don't need to see me everyday. The time I do get with them would be even mores special.

I am not going to lie, D is rough on kids. I have seen family members and friends kids go through it. However if done right the effects are temporary and the kids rebound and even thrive.

Look whether staying M or D, the kids are going take that experience and incorporate it into how they act later in life. Everyone gets FOO issues. Some are minor, some are big, but we all have them. Kids are no exception.

Leaving a bad situation while initially painful would be better in the long run. They learn valuable lessons about how you let people treat you and that the "right" decision isn't always the easiest. They also learn to be resilient and ride out the storm.

My kids are why I stayed initially but it isn't enough. I need more, so now I base that decision on my W and if I want her to be in life anymore. Does she contribute to me being happy ? Does she make my life difficult ? Would being M or D help me pursue the things in life that I want? Is my W actively working to change ? How safe do I feel around her ? Does she provide me thing when I ask for them ? All good question to ponder in this though process.

Today my W adds to my life and she keeps saying and doing the right things. Tomorrow maybe not, but I have enough to deal with in the present to waste time worrying about how she will act tomorrow. D is always on the table and is always an option for the rest of my life. Today it isn't what I want, but I keep it as a backup plan.

FWIW- my recent issues have been resolved. My W did close the gap and address issues that are
"her issues," not my issues. Humble apologies and explaining what she has to live with everyday help satisfy my sense of justice. People can surprise you. Not all surprises are bad either : )


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2554 | Registered: May 2010
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me there is a lot more to the story than just the ONS. For me there is a lot more to the story than just the ONS. We've struggled for years and years and I feel I've jumped through hoops and done backflips and put up with so much shit to make our marriage better for years. And this is the thanks I get?

I could have written what your wrote word for word. except it was a LTA rather than a ONS. Its all the same pain. emasculation is emasculation.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
reallyscrewedup7
♂ Member
Member # 30825
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, lots of fresh pain here. That sucks. No other way to describe it.

For the newbies - I take you back to Page 1 of this thread and remind you that no matter what, D or R, you have to live with yourself. So

R E S P E C T ..... Y O U R S E L F

Please.

I know there are all kinds of advocates for D or R. Either course you choose has its own brand of hell for you to endure. But in the end, whatever route you follow, it will be a lot better if you respect yourself above all else.

Sorry for all the suck that is out there today. May you all have the strength to get through to a better place.


Infidelity sucks shit

Posts: 899 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Finding my way
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guys
How *emotionally available* are your WWs?

My WW has NEVER been *in touch* with her emotions. She is not introspective. She seems to not be able to connect with the emotions of others. probably because she cannot connect with them within herself.

She never thinks deeply on anything. Never considers what things mean. Why we are here? What is love? What is good or evil and why? Never even really appreciates beautiful scenery.

Instead she likes cartoons on the television. She reads magazines about fashion and movie stars. She reads books about crazy adventures usually involving a woman juggling several men and fashion. She loves the tv show *sex in the city*.

She seems entirely 2 dimensional.

Is it even possible for such a person to *get it* about her affair and what it did to me? Is such a person evan capable of looking within herself for the whys and hows of her affair?

Is it at all possible for such a person to take responsibility for her own choices - and stop blaming me for her affair?

I dont think so. Anyone else with a WW like mine? or am I the only *lucky* one?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
outside4me
♂ Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor: TY is similar to your wife in that she prefers to frequent the superficial, avoiding the difficult meaningful at all costs. This kind of precludes any work on the why or fixing her broken parts... wishing don't make it so.

The path of R is not a one way street, and it takes two to tango in that street dance. Since I'm by myself in that regard, I've become
"emotionally unavailable". I'm no longer the weight lifter doing all the work, I'm now a mirror of whatever she wants to put out. I will reciprocate in kind, but no longer initiate. Consequently, it looks like I'm on a quick road to D. I'm okay with that.


Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
LostSamurai
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Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I base that decision on my W and if I want her to be in life anymore. Does she contribute to me being happy ? Does she make my life difficult ? Would being M or D help me pursue the things in life that I want? Is my W actively working to change ? How safe do I feel around her ? Does she provide me thing when I ask for them ? All good question to ponder in this though process.

I feel like I am pass this because she hasn't done anything. is it true that they need to show Remorse right away. If I had to look at my WW and based on her FOO I would assume that she doesn't understand remorse because of that. Has she done any work. Nope.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

is it true that they need to show Remorse right away

That's one theory, but it's not one size fits all. It wasn't true in my case - my wife wanted to R, but it was very tough the first 18 months. I only started to get a little better with the help of A/D's, IC, letting go of the outcome, and self care. None of that should sound unfamiliar. I can't emphasize self care enough. I believe my wife has come around - she acts like it. I'm also stubborn and loyal, and don't give up or give in easy. Everyone's circumstance is different, and to be honest we were close to D a couple of times, but things have gotten better. Mostly these days I am just dealing with the past trauma, there haven't been any new hurts in almost a year. However, I had a lot invested in the relationship - if I had been younger, with no kids, less memories, etc. then I would have walked after DDay. It's what I did when my first wife cheated.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3947 | Registered: Dec 2011
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel like I am forcing myself to do the 180 but not sure if it is truly beneficial. I want to R truthfully but I don't feel like she understands the situation completely or knows how to deal with it correctly.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's emasculating and I hate it.

It sure is, but that's not a permanent condition. TMI - I made my wife orgasm at least three times the other day. Nothing emasculating there.

It's about them, not us. Repeat as often as necessary for that to sink in. The problem is with their morality, not our masculinity. If our masculinity was truly an issue, then why are so many of them eager to R? And for those men who don't have a WW who is willing to R, how come so many of them find love again?

Because it's about them, not us.

We're just fine. Really.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling

Posts: 1390 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

is it true that they need to show Remorse right away.

Mine did not either. She spiraled into shame and depression. All her issues. Remorse took some time and some therapy for her to come to terms with what she did.

It isn't always straight out of the gate. In my Ws mind she had three years to tell herself that it was OK. She probably would have taken it to her grave if a few chance emails were not caught by me.

IC helped her. Not all WW are capable of remorse. You decide what you can live with.

Sal makes a good point about the emasculating feeling. Sometimes it helps to redefine masculinity in ways that you may not have before.

Real men are committed, generous and keep their promises, etc. You have to have balls of steel to do R with a WW. Nothing I have ever done comes close to how hard that is. It isn't a single event, but many over the course of years. Any man that has gone through this does not have anything to prove to me about their masculinity.

The saying it is not you it is them is 1000% accurate. Brokenness in spades. The ones worth Ring with identify and fix that brokenness.

My W has done a lot to work out her issues and be safe again. Her remorse is helpful to me. It shows me that she "gets it." It really is eye opening to look at the damage they caused themselves. We often focus on the damage and hurt done to us, but seeing that they experience the consequences of that action are helpful to healing.

I had a rough time recently, but it worked out. I am lucky to have a W that gets it and realizes that most of the things that come up now are "her" issues, not mine. I still have some, but time and processing them over and over again has lessened their impact to me.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2554 | Registered: May 2010
Mercilesslynuked
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Member # 42997
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor, I could have written this word for word WRT my wayward.
My WW has NEVER been *in touch* with her emotions. She is not introspective. She seems to not be able to connect with the emotions of others. probably because she cannot connect with them within herself.

She never thinks deeply on anything. Never considers what things mean. Why we are here? What is love? What is good or evil and why? Never even really appreciates beautiful scenery.

With that being said, and maybe I'm naive, she is struggling as hard as she can towards being introspective and fixing her shit. Does her desire to fix shit mean she can? I do not have an answer yet however I understand she does not have the tools currently to really dig deep, but maybe along the way she will find them.


Never apologize for having high standards. People who really want to be in your life will rise up to meet them.

D-day 1/6/2014-1/23/2014


Posts: 156 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Colorado
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

is it true that they need to show Remorse right away.

I held that belief for awhile. But no - not unless you require that as a condition.
Several of our mates waited...I think one was @ a year(?)

It's probably a recurring question on the BS questions for WS thread...

It *hurt* me where it means to be a man, but it never made me less, or even humiliated me - I somehow just knew what Sal was saying there.
Only encountered the idea and discussion of emasculation here (and humiliation for many wimmenz' reactions).
I wish none of the brothers felt that.
At all!
WSS^^^

[This message edited by jjct at 2:23 PM, June 5th (Thursday)]


Posts: 6591 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
LifeIsAJrny
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Member # 40849
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can relate to so much of what has been said recently.

I had a really good therapist a few years ago who met with my wife and me, and then just me for awhile. I will never forget he drew on his whiteboard the difference in emotional intelligence (basically as it relates to just "getting it" about life, mature love, and marriage) between me and my wife. He looked me straight in the eyes and said "Jrny... You are here, and Mrs. Jrny is here (far apart). She may or my not ever get where you are, and even if she does you might not want to wait that long."

I've never forgotten that. And here I am... I am fortunate that I think my WW gets it and is willing to do the work on herself. But again, do I want to wait that long? As Tred said... There are a lot of memories and good times invested in the marriage. I'm just not sure I care anymore. One to many shots over the bow... I'm holding for now but for how long?

The path of R is not a one way street, and it takes two to tango in that street dance. Since I'm by myself in that regard, I've become "emotionally unavailable". I'm no longer the weight lifter doing all the work, I'm now a mirror of whatever she wants to put out. I will reciprocate in kind, but no longer initiate. Consequently, it looks like I'm on a quick road to D. I'm okay with that.

This is exactly how I feel. It's been a one way street for too long. Especially being a mirror for her and no more. I might end up on the same road as outside 4 me. Only time will tell.


Me: 37
WW: 38
DS6 and DS8

ONS on out of country business trip with POSCOW and 1 week EA, texting, chatting.

Married: 11 years
D-Day: 9/7/13


Posts: 13 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: LifeIsAJrny
Schadenfreude
♂ Member
Member # 43075
What?  Posted: 3:38 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted somewhere else that casinos thrive on the "investment" type of thinking. If I just play this machine 10 more minutes, I'm sure I'll hit the jackpot as I've been playing and losing for the past three hours. That's focusing on past investment. Not wise thinking. Your investment is in something that's now dead. You'll never get that investment back. You can only live in the present and plan for the future.

Will she get it while you're still in the picture? How long can you wait?


Posts: 892 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Midwest
Montreal
♂ Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On the question of remorse I think that it depends on a lot of things. Like jjct said some people want and need it right away as a condition of reconciliation. That's fine, they're entitled to it if that's what they need. Others get remorse right away, because their wive's affairs ended years before, and thus they've had time to "get there" so to speak. Some even confess, out of remorse, though admittedly that number is probably few and far between.

But I think for the vast majority of us D-Day came as just a big of a shock to them as to us. They're smarter than us right? How could we catch them? So they're not "ready" for remorse. I think it's LifeisCrazy who once pointed out that you need to give your wife time to come back to the marriage. Not "you just hang out here while I bang some guy" time, but time to work through their own shit, to get TO remorse. Regret I think is there from the second the world crashes down on them, but the difference between regret and remorse is a difficult one to understand at the best of times. They have to try of course, they have to want to get there, but I don't think it's a switch. I think it comes in pieces, sometimes big, sometimes small.

Then, just for fun, throw in some FOO issues, and inherent personality flaws. My wife, because of those two things, treats deep emotions as a personal attack. Always has. Our MC is working on her on that, telling her that she's needed it to survive (there's the FOO) but that it's not going to work anymore. Not if she wants the marriage to survive that is. But in the meantime when my wife starts to feel remorse, and all the pain that goes with that, she gets defensive and angry, and goes on the attack. She's never learned to deal with her emotions in any other way. And there's the inherent personality flaw.

Can she change? She's trying. I would say that it took 6 months for her to start feeling remorse (wrote me a beautiful letter of apology at said time), and since we started seeing our new MC a couple of months ago she's starting to learn how to deal with her own feelings. I say "starting" because she still makes some rather horrific mistakes in her defensiveness. But now, perhaps for the first time since I've known her, she's trying to learn from them. So if you ask me personally how long it took for my wife to be remorseful I would answer "6-10 months".

[This message edited by Montreal at 3:41 PM, June 5th (Thursday)]


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 88 | Registered: Sep 2013
7yrsflushed
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Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

is it true that they need to show Remorse right away
No one shoe fits all but if they are unremorseful, still in the A, refusing to go NC, refusing transparency, blaming you and generally being as uncooperative as possible then they aren't even remotely remorseful. They aren't even foggy that's full blown unremoresful. In that case the shoes you want to put on have sprinter spikes in them so you can sprint you ass to the lawyers office. Figuratively walking out the door after Dday is IMO the best time to take back control and possible wake up a WS. When they are unremorseful and you file either they wake up or they were never going to wake up in the first place and you saved yourself a shit load of pain.

I speak as one of the MENZ that didn't listen and did have an unremorseful WW. I spent 2 years dealing with stupidity before I woke up. I wish I had done that shit much sooner. Life is good now but it could have been better much sooner. Again my point is if your WW is unremorseful then things aren't going to change quickly if at all. They are likely going to get worse.

I guess I could have just said it takes 2 people to R. If you are doing all the work and your WW is just along for the ride. There is a problem and you may need to think about getting out of that situation because you are living with a ticking dday bomb.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 4:02 PM, June 5th (Thursday)]


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Divorced 9/2/14 and loving life!

Posts: 1905 | Registered: May 2011 | From: VA
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 4:42 PM, June 5th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Over text the other day, after I mentioned I won't put up with infidelity and unremorsefulness, she texted me "unremorseful doesn't describe me". But then she never said she was remorseful either.

That's been bugging me regarding gauging her remorsefulness. It was a strange way to turn a phrase, don't you think? Why the negative?


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 740 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
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