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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 20
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

darn it. double post.

[This message edited by Razor at 3:03 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For the most part I am content in my M to WW.

I hope so man, but that doesn't square with anything you wrote in your earlier post. Maybe it was just a vent, hell I do that plenty myself. I wish you the best either way. Thanks for engaging me on this, you didn't have to. After all it's none of my business - not that I've allowed that to stop me before


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling
PM's w/ male members only please

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just a vent / rant or whatever.

venting plus having plan b keep me sane.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just a vent / rant or whatever.

Eh, you're entitled to it mate. We've been known to do that in these parts.

I was talking with another BM about triggers. Not really an epiphany, but I realized something about myself tonight. Might help someone else if I shared it. This is a paraphrase of what I sent him tonight - I've edited some of the content. It's not for the weak.

----
I trigger every night. Just was talking to Sand about this very thing. I get this feeling of dread every night before we go to bed, because I know the nightmares are coming. I've been like this for a while, and just made the connection tonight. Something I need to talk to the the brain doc about. She's an expert in trauma and PTSD.

The new level of healing and peace that you hear is surrender and acceptance. I can't beat this - I can only deal with it in the best way possible. It's the path I choose, the pain I choose. I'd rather have this pain and what I have than any other option.

I don't want anyone to think that this shit ever ends - it doesn't. But life is good, you know? I love my wife, we have a great son who is working on Annapolis, we are financially secure, my career is going good. I'd envy myself if it wasn't for my wife fucking other men. It's not easy, but at times it's not hard. I think you know what I mean.
-----

Those thoughts are my perspective on where I am now at about 2 1/2 years out. Don't take my words as an interpretation of your situation. Someone should post a beer.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3963 | Registered: Dec 2011
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:59 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I trigger every night. Just was talking to Sand about this very thing. I get this feeling of dread every night before we go to bed, because I know the nightmares are coming. I've been like this for a while, and just made the connection tonight. Something I need to talk to the the brain doc about. She's an expert in trauma and PTSD.

The new level of healing and peace that you hear is surrender and acceptance. I can't beat this - I can only deal with it in the best way possible. It's the path I choose, the pain I choose. I'd rather have this pain and what I have than any other option.

I don't want anyone to think that this shit ever ends - it doesn't. But life is good, you know? I love my wife, we have a great son who is working on Annapolis, we are financially secure, my career is going good. I'd envy myself if it wasn't for my wife fucking other men. It's not easy, but at times it's not hard. I think you know what I mean.

We're eight years out from D-Day in September, and most of this remains remarkably true -- except the nightly triggers part.

I haven't triggered in years, but once a week or so, it just crosses my mind: oh yeah, life is good, except for that bit about you having a wife that fucked other people and lied to you for a couple of years.

It's like a thorn in your hand that you can't pluck out. Most of the time you don't notice it, but every once in awhile, it snags on something or you rub your finger against it in a moment of idleness. It doesn't even hurt, but you pick at it for a bit between commercials while watching the Red Sox lose...then the action resumes and it's forgotten again until next week.

You have to be careful with it, that Thorn of Mostly Healed...or, at least I do, because it's a mothballed resentment factory. Flip of a switch and I could fire that fucker up and be churning out a million cubic feet of widgets a day in no time.

Most of the time, love is easy, but sometimes you have to choose it. Sometimes you have to remember that love is a verb.

And as weird as it sounds, in some ways, that makes the love better.

When King David (in, you know, the bible) decided to build a temple to honor God, he went looking for a site to put it. He found the perfect spot, and the dude who owned it said, "Here! You can have it for free. Why? Because a) you're the king, and b) it's for, you know, God and stuff."

David turned him down, saying, "I won't give anything to God that cost me nothing."

There's something about the sacrifice -- the work, the sweat and toil, the overcoming of yourself -- that makes love grow, that makes it deeper. Beyond even the pain of getting past betrayal, there's something devotional in the daily, weekly struggle to deny that Thorn it's pound of flesh that matters.

If love costs you nothing, it's worth nothing, and the best love of all is consistently mindful that it could, if you wanted, choose something different. It's the radical freedom of choice despite the war of attrition you're waging with the past that makes it devotional -- that makes it worthy of being called love.

Assuming, of course, that you're not still hooked up with an incorrigible, buck-toothed, cum-gargling sluthole who's just waiting for the next Cock of Karma to descend from the clouds and save her from her sucking hole of need.

In that case, then you're just being an idiot.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6747 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome back WAL.

Really agree with the

If love costs you nothing, it's worth nothing, and the best love of all is consistently mindful that it could, if you wanted, choose something different. It's the radical freedom of choice despite the war of attrition you're waging with the past that makes it devotional -- that makes it worthy of being called love.

It helps put a lot of my struggle in perspective.

Assuming, of course, that you're not still hooked up with an incorrigible, buck-toothed, cum-gargling sluthole who's just waiting for the next Cock of Karma to descend from the clouds and save her from her sucking hole of need.

In that case, then you're just being an idiot.


You've been saving that one!


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2872 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
mike7
♂ Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 11:56 PM, May 29th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL - you do have a gift. It's really fun to read your posts. I hope your book deal is working out for you. I may PM you to see what you've written. I have a lot of time over here to read.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
outside4me
♂ Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 2:08 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL: Your wordsmithy is superlative, good sir! I very much enjoy the imagery and turn of phrase.

Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:16 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Happy Friday gentlemen and scholars.
Hope everyone has a nice day and weekend.

Has any of your sex lives improved with WW.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Those thoughts are my perspective on where I am now at about 2 1/2 years out.

We're eight years out from D-Day in September

Right now at 1 1/2 years out a large part of my struggle is should I stay or should I go? I just don't know that I can make it as long as ya'll have regardless of how much I love her, just because I don't ever see trusting her enough to justify staying. I salute the two of you for hanging in as long as you have and being able to deal with it as you have. I'm not sure I have the strength to.

wal - your way of putting all this down in words never ceases to amaze and impress me, but this:

Assuming, of course, that you're not still hooked up with an incorrigible, buck-toothed, cum-gargling sluthole who's just waiting for the next Cock of Karma to descend from the clouds and save her from her sucking hole of need.

almost had me do a spit take all over the monitor. Touche' sir!


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 272 | Registered: Dec 2012
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 8:34 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has any of your sex lives improved with WW.

LS - WW and I have always had, compared to many couples from what I hear, an incredibly good sex life. She is probably borderline, if not actually across the line, a bit of a nympho (probably part of the problem regarding her A's). She's always been a highly passionate person, which isn't so great when she's mad, but in the bedroom it makes for some great sex.

All that said though, there are times when I just don't want her sexually because I'm triggering, but will go through the motions, although I do find it fulfilling in the end. Also, probably 80% of the time we are engaging sexually the A's come to mind in one way or another and occasionally will begin to affect my performance (possible tmi I know). When that happens I just have to change the channel in my mind, and often it's to some kind of role play, even if it's in my head that allows me to keep going until the end. I'd say it hasn't improved it, but while it has had a negative effect, it hasn't been a devastatingly adverse effect on it.

[This message edited by WearingTheHorns at 8:40 AM, May 30th (Friday)]


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 272 | Registered: Dec 2012
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Have a great weekend gentlemen.

You have to be careful with it, that Thorn of Mostly Healed...or, at least I do, because it's a mothballed resentment factory. Flip of a switch and I could fire that fucker up and be churning out a million cubic feet of widgets a day in no time.

Most of the time, love is easy, but sometimes you have to choose it. Sometimes you have to remember that love is a verb.

And as weird as it sounds, in some ways, that makes the love better.

I have seen no better description of the process of R after the initial seething burn is healed. There are times the wind blows the wrong direction and I can churn a million widgets a minute. But your right, if you have a W who is remorseful. You must choose to act with love and move past.
Well said as usual WAL.

Enjoy the weekend, you all are invited to meet me in Maui Tuesday. I'm going off grid, but will make margaritas and drink whisky with all who want to go with....

[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 9:03 AM, May 30th (Friday)]


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1903 | Registered: Nov 2010
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like a great plan LHAP! I also hope that everyone has a great weekend. Weather is supposed to be nice in these parts, plan on some gardening and golfing. Might even drink a beverage.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3963 | Registered: Dec 2011
outside4me
♂ Member
Member # 42430
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has any of your sex lives improved with WW.
Nope. There was about a month of Hysterical Bonding, but that passed. Even though the mind movies and intrusive thoughts about POSER have decreased in frequency, they still crop up now and again. Mainly though, I've lost respect/desire for her and no longer initiate sexytime.

Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't know that I can make it as long as ya'll have regardless of how much I love her, just because I don't ever see trusting her enough to justify staying.

Thats the sticking point though. Can there be love without trust? And how does diminished trust affect love?

Im not talking about eros or erotic physical passionate love because trust doesnt play a huge role there IMO.

Philla or friendship has some level of trust but friendship generally does not dependent on it.

Storge or love between family members is not dependent on trust either. If you have siblings you know that pretty well.

Agape or spiritual self sacrificing love requires trust IMO. Agape seems the ideal love and perhaps what we thought we had before the affair.

So it seems to me that the loss of trust can really cripple how much we feel for our WWs. Basically I think it takes it down a notch or 2 or 3. And once trust is lost where it was once unconditional as it must be in agape. I just dont see how it can be won back.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has any of your sex lives improved with WW.

Yeah, 15 months of intense, sweaty sex that ranges from porno sex to tender lovemaking. I became the prize-who-must-be-kept-at-all-costs when I (1) asked for a divorce right after D Day; then (2) laid down the law for R.

I guess her perception of me changed from duped H to alpha male. Truth is, I'm the same me I've always been. Didn't know that my wife needed supervision and "discipline" to stay on the straight and narrow. Thought I had an equal life partner. Instead I had a 40-year old who wanted to be a partying teenager again.

Oh well. Live and learn.

WAL, that was a triumphant return. Agree with outside, that's wordsmithing at its finest. Don't be a stranger.

The new level of healing and peace that you hear is surrender and acceptance. I can't beat this - I can only deal with it in the best way possible. It's the path I choose, the pain I choose. I'd rather have this pain and what I have than any other option.

I don't want anyone to think that this shit ever ends - it doesn't. But life is good, you know? I love my wife, we have a great son who is working on Annapolis, we are financially secure, my career is going good. I'd envy myself if it wasn't for my wife fucking other men.

Tred, awesome post. That's probably the best explanation I've read of what this is like for so many of us. 90% of the men out there would trade places with me, even with the cheating wife, or reformed cheating wife (which status will need to be continually verified). This is the path we chose. Life really is good. Except when it's not.


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling
PM's w/ male members only please

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Agape or spiritual self sacrificing love requires trust IMO. Agape seems the ideal love and perhaps what we thought we had before the affair.

I have to say that's spot on. The other day I was thinking about the ending of the movie "Seeking A Friend For The End Of The World", and how much it really hit me when we saw it. WW's reaction was, "They die at the end! That sucks!". She always wants the "...and they lived happily ever after" ending. I however, saw it differently. To me, they had a "happily ever after". They were at the pinnacle of their love when they died, and they died with the one person they most wanted to be together with. They were in that early stage of love where you ache for the other when they're not there. Both of you are at your best. You only show your good points to each other. You want the best for the other, and you strive to give that to them. When they died, they'd never fought. They'd never seen that one little quirk that was kind of endearing, then over time became the thing that would irritate them the most. They had complete trust in the other. They had those perfect qualities of a relationship that all couples have even if they don't realize it's still there. We on the other hand, are quite aware of them, because they are gone. Everything that was perfect, everything that was innocent about our relationship with our W's was torn from us and carelessly discarded by our W's like a napkin that was used to get bubblegum off the bottom of her shoe. We'll never get it back. It's like someone the other day was saying, "I want to believe in Santa Claus again", and it'll never happen. There's that part of love we were lead to believe would always be there that's now gone forever. And that's one of the things that hurts the most.


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 272 | Registered: Dec 2012
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LS - WW and I have always had, compared to many couples from what I hear, an incredibly good sex life. She is probably borderline, if not actually across the line, a bit of a nympho (probably part of the problem regarding her A's). She's always been a highly passionate person, which isn't so great when she's mad, but in the bedroom it makes for some great sex.
All that said though, there are times when I just don't want her sexually because I'm triggering, but will go through the motions, although I do find it fulfilling in the end. Also, probably 80% of the time we are engaging sexually the A's come to mind in one way or another and occasionally will begin to affect my performance (possible tmi I know). When that happens I just have to change the channel in my mind, and often it's to some kind of role play, even if it's in my head that allows me to keep going until the end. I'd say it hasn't improved it, but while it has had a negative effect, it hasn't been a devastatingly adverse effect on it.

*It's nice to know that some can survive afterwards.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, 15 months of intense, sweaty sex that ranges from porno sex to tender lovemaking. I became the prize-who-must-be-kept-at-all-costs when I (1) asked for a divorce right after D Day; then (2) laid down the law for R.

I wished I asked for a divorce after dday... now I am going to be asking one at the next MC session.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, May 30th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wished I asked for a divorce after dday... now I am going to be asking one at the next MC session.

Sorry to hear that LS. Has anything changed, or have you finally made up your mind about D vs. R?


Me (BS)-45, WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
M - 18 years, 4 children
Reconciling
PM's w/ male members only please

Posts: 1410 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
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