This process of getting to really know my spouse has opened my eyes to many things about him. One of these is his inability to discuss deep issues; conflict or otherwise. He'll change the subject, get defensive or find some way to shut down an uncomfortable topic. I remember that his mother would do the same thing when she was asked certain types of questions.
Going back to what ksrplat said:
These are some seriously f*ed-up people.
Both feet pointed forward; positive
Please, someone tell me they NEVER had any "gut feeling" during the LTA time frame.
I NEVER had an inkling. I was so convinced that my WH was a true blue, Eagle Scout, salt of the earth good guy that I NEVER suspected a thing. Even on the morning that I found a strange car in the driveway and a woman's coat and purse on the sofa, I believed there must be a reasonable explanation, right up until the moment that I followed the voices to the bedroom.
On another thread, I listed things I SHOULD HAVE noticed that didn't add up, like errands that took too long, increased irritability and dressing better. But these were also easily explained by our new baby, his mom's death, his promotion at work...
I can honestly say I never had a "gut feeling."
I think that BS of LTA's may have more issues that they have to deal with personnally than the typical BS dealing with an A.
Like you, I think I had my WH on a pedastal. And Like ats, I think I took way too much responsibility for his and our problems. You may be on to something, that this contributed to my inability to see warning signs and thus let the A drag on longer than it might have. I need to mull this for a while.
[This message edited by krsplat at 6:43 AM, June 13th (Friday)]
My head was screaming "Danger Will Robinson", but for some reason I chose to ignore the warnings.
...that this contributed to my inability to see warning signs and thus let the A drag on longer than it might have. I need to mull this for a while.
Do not beat yourself up too much ruminating on this. For FWW's first LTA (that I know of) I had suspicions, and what I know now was more than proof in phone records, M re-writing, distancing, etc. Never the less, she and a well-meaning friend convinced me it was all in my head. After this she went on to a second LTA that occurred right under my nose, but I wrote off my suspicions, especially after having (I thought) made false accusations on the earlier OM.
Another thing I have noticed is that back before dday I saw what I wanted to see. For example, she caught herpes during her A with the earlier OM. She told me the Dr. told her it could have been “dormant” in her systems for years (we had been married 17 years at that point), and that she must have caught it from me even though we had not had sex the previous 6 months. When I did internet searching at that time I found pages on the web I thought supported that position. I know now that she contracted it form OM. They met for sex a few days before she brokeout. A week or so before that he had “jock itch” . Her Dr. told her based on the large antibody load that her outbreak was a recent infection. After dday I went back and was never able to find pages that supported the possibility of a dormant infection like I recalled from the time of her outbreak. During that time I saw what I wanted to see.
The fact is the wedding went much better than I expected given the circumstances. I enjoyed the time with my boys and parents there. I had told her as much. I had complimented her on what a great job she had done helping with the wedding and how attractive I thought she looked in her MOB dress. Still, her perception was that I was not happy to be at the wedding, that I did not want to be there, and that it was my fault that she was stressed and uncomfortable at the wedding.
She did not remember doing an "elbow bump" greeting and joking with her BIL that she had the A with. She did not understand why I would be uncomfortable around this BIL and around her older DD and husband who have banned me from their house. She did not realize that I was drinking only water and soft drinks the day of the wedding and at the reception to stay sharp and not do anything I might regret. She did not remember taking a Xanax and passng out the night after the reception.
When I asked about the cheapskate comment she said that I always told her there was no money for a new car, it was my fault. I asked her where she thought the money was with her unemployed much of the time and a child in school. I asked her why she had not bought a car herself, and she admitted the last time she did that it did not go well and that she did not have the money.
She asked why I looked at her phone when I did, and I told her about the recent behaviors that caused me to feel unsafe in the M, behaviors that were very similar to behaviors before dday. She acknowledged that she thought some of her recent behaviors might trigger me, and then went on to say that she knew I would never be over what she did in her As.
She believes that my expectation that she not complain about me and the marriage to people outsider the M and people who are not friends of the M is unrealistic, that it is a Pollyannaish view. She believes that my expectation that we support and be open and honest with each other is unrealistic. She thought that after nearly 5 years things would be better, but that they are not, she belives that I will never forget or forgive her for what she did in the As.
What I see in her comments last night is a perception and attitude that is nearly the same as at dday. That she is projecting her feelings on to me, and that I am to blame for her problems.
I told her I would like to talk this evening to start dividing money and income into separate pools and about how to divide up the joint expenses between us. There is no legal separation in FL, but separating income and responsibilities will be a first step. I have begun to collect all the financial and other information that will ultimately be necessary for a D. If she pushes she is entitled to and will get long-term spousal support in Fl due to the differences in our income. If I pay that I will have nothing left to assist our DSs in their college expenses. This is the real problem; she is not financially able to take care of herself.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:05 AM, June 13th (Friday)]
Feelings are facts to the BPD. This is what makes it so hard to deal with them. Her perception (feeling) was that you were not having fun and did not want to be there. BPDs trust their gut so she knew she was correct about all this.
Several years ago my W got mad at me after a wedding reception. I had a good time talking with some people I had not seen for several years. She said I ignored her. Every time I tried to get near her, she was surrounded by family and friends having a very good time. She was really doing the same thing I was doing. I guess difference was that she was doing it right but I was doing it wrong.
The next big family get together I failed again. It seems I was not friendly enough to everyone. It can get confusing.
Your W thinks it is o.k. to complain about you to people who are outside the M and not friends of the M. Would she feel the same about you doing this to her? I bet if you ask this question she will say you do it all the time when you come to SI.
She is projecting her feelings on to you and yes she sees that you are to blame for these problems. This is so ingrained into them and is very hard to change. My W can project, deflect and blame shift at the speed of light. Maybe faster! I do not know how she does it.
Good luck with the talk tonight. I hope you can work something out. Your W has worked pretty hard to better herself. She has many bad things to overcome. I do understand your frustration with the way things are going.
Sure, our marriage had issues. I wasn't happy with our relationship as I felt he was supremely selfish and always thought of himself first, not me or our children.
For instance, in regards to our children. Both our boys had been in the Boy Scouts. MisterSister would never participate. HE wasn't interested. I was the parent that participated. All the other boys (except the couple of divorced mom's, and then even their fathers still participated sometimes) had their fathers involved.
Now, FWH included our ds's on many of his fishing trips and hunting trips, but those were all about FWH, not our boys. It was what FWH wanted to do, not necessarily what our boys wanted to do. If the boys fit into what he wanted to do, fine. If the boys did things he wasn't interested in, he had nothing to do with it. Didn't go to the boy's soccer games. They both played from the age of about 5 all the way through High School.
I felt MisterSister was an arrogant selfish ass. I never thought he would betray me. NEVER. I thought he would always have my back.
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
That many of us have accepted less than what we deserved from our WS's isn't a reflection on you as being fucked up, but that we maybe somewhat co-dependent. If that is the worse of our fucked upness, that is pretty good.
eta: I removed other stuff in this post because I read someone else's profile and thought it was krsplat's. I am so sorry.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:45 AM, June 13th (Friday)]
Since my H does surgical emergencies he had reason to be away at random times. His hook ups with OW were always associated with work. He never snuck out during family time, and rarely even spoke to her then. He never believed he was in love and felt no compulsion to demonize me. He was also a master compartmentalizer, so guilt was rarely a concern for him. Our sex life tailed off a bit, but that I took to be midlife and things were still very passionate at times.
He was definitely quite fucked up; much more so than I was aware. We both understand that a lot better now. And I realize that I was accepting less than I deserved, but I knew that before too--I just couldn't find anyway to get him to be more giving. Like Sister's H, selfishness was his defining characteristic. And I made a choice that it was worth it to stay. Now I won't.
But just today I realized that likely the main reason the A went on so long (beyond the CSA compulsion crap, habit, blah blah) is just because he sucks at breaking up with people. He told me that after 6 months he was wishing it was over (and that it had never started) but that it just dragged on, with decreasing frequency of hook ups but similiar time of mostly professional mentoring phone calls. Thinking back (while swimming laps!) I remembered that every single relationship he had he ended poorly, mostly by starting up with someone new until he got caught. He would pull away, treat the woman coolly, while saying he still loved her and of course there was no one else. (And yes, it happened to me when we were dating). He had no emotional maturity and was very conflict avoidant. Every breakup needed a crisis. He treated OW poorly and sometimes she would get pissed over not getting a birthday card or whatever, and he would think he was off the hook, but she was so desperate that she always came back. And apparently the excuse of "I have a wife and this is fucking wrong!" never occurred to him. Then when she got threatening he felt trapped. He feels that it would have wound down soon, since if was less and less frequent and sometimes he would go over and not even have sex and just leave and even she seemed to be losing interest, but I believe that it required a crisis of some sort. Two very fucked up people.
He was definitely quite fucked up; much more so than I was aware. We both understand that a lot better now. And I realize that I was accepting less than I deserved, but I knew that before too--I just couldn't find anyway to get him to be more giving. Like Sister's H, selfishness was his defining characteristic. And I made a choice that it was worth it to stay. Now I won't
That's the key...We both understand that he and I were both in a bad state of mind. My H was quite fucked up and I was willing to accept it.
How sick is it that in spite of all this madness, I truly do love my H. However, loving him, does not mean that I would consider accepting a life that is less than what I desire.
Today I called him at work and told him that I am feeling distant and disconnected. Over the past few days my H had asked me if anything was wrong. I chose not to discuss the log books because timing is everything. But, since he is coming home early tonight to talk, I will bring it up. I need to hear his truthful response. The truth will be another confirmation and a building block in my safety.
ME: Still struggling, but doing better every day (I think)
WW doing everything possible
Married almost 19 years; 3 kids (18, 13, 6)
D Day 4/6/14
LTA 13+ years
[This message edited by TexNY at 6:08 AM, June 15th (Sunday)]
As far as you being:
Guess I set the record for being a blind gullible fool.
We weren't fools, though. Our WS's are the actual fools. We were the ones who blindly trusted, loved and believed in our spouses. That is what one does with their life partner. We don't go into marriage with the idea that we must constantly be on guard for our spouse to stab us in the back and betray us. We trust, we love. We know what that means to us. We know that we wouldn't betray our spouse so we assume they feel the same. They have probably even told us that they would never betray us. We believe them because we love them. We are not fools. Only fools take advantage of people that love and trust them.
I am glad that your WW seems remorseful. That really helps when you both want to reconcile. At 2 months out I remember I was still in shock (and denial, actually). I hadn't even really been angry. Mostly sad and devastated. Anger started rolling in after the shock wore off, which for me, was around the 5-6 month mark.
the fatal flaw w/ ours @ the time was poor communication---we really didn't talk about the issues we were having---she talked to him instead and I kept things bottled up and minimized them in my own mind)...
he actually replaced me as her best friend (sounds stupid given the physical betrayal; but, that actually hurts the most)...
It can be very slow on the weekends everywhere on SI. The LTA thread can be very slow at times. Other times it will be extremely active. Don't give up, someone will show up sooner or later.
She said that she has already hinted about a D to her DDs and our DSs. She is staying in the spare bedroom. One DD and her sister I am sure are happy she is leaving me as it validates their behaviors.
Since this is what must be, I am hoping for a quick resolution. I wish I could fix this. Six months ago I really thought we would be OK. Now I think she was being nicer while she was unemployed, but now that she has a job feels free to behave as she feels.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 6:58 PM, June 14th (Saturday)]
I'm so sorry.
But, at this point I think that both you and Mrs. Ats know that you both tried and respect each other for it. I don't believe you will be "enemies" and will be able to separate things as fairly and kindly as possible.
I really admire you for all you have done and how hard you worked.
I know that you love her, but you have been wondering a long time if this was enough for you. Hugs and prayers to you.
@Catlover and tribe - My discussion with my H went better than expected. I told him that I knew that his assignments over the last decade had been in a different location than he told me. I emphasized again that it was important to me that he trusted me enough to feel safe enough to be honest with me. My H stated that he did not view his time with the AP as "living with her".
I chose not to debate his answer because getting some response from my H is progress. Today, I did bring up his mother's many threats of suicide and his suicide threat to me. In all of our years together, we seldom had deep thought provoking discussions. Those that took place were early on in our M. Although my H said nothing, the look on his face told me that he was thinking about his mom and her manipulation and abuse.
In communication, timing is everything. If the need arises I will restart the discussion.
Welcome to all the newbies. Sorry we have to meet under these circumstances. SI has been a lifesaver to me and so many others. Please post and respond to posts because your input is welcome.
I hate myself for trying to help her and waiting for her to catch up. Honestly, if a WS does not get it and take the lead in R within 6 months I think the BS needs to leave.
I resent her telling the boys unilaterally. I resent her being at peace with this. She is all excited about buying a car. I have offered to take on the house mortgage, the accumulated debt in a second mortgage and helping my boys finish school if she will just leave and be on her own.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 12:05 AM, June 15th (Sunday)]
I truly understand how you feel. You have worked so very, very hard to try to salvage the M and to help your W. Do not hate yourself for being a loving, caring person.
I don't know if she really planned this. From reading your story over the years, I believe Mrs. Ats was trying to heal herself and was remorseful as she could be for hurting you. But unfortunately, it wasn't enough. She could not have an intimate relationship with anyone.
Your feelings of resentment are completely understandable. You have put so much time, effort, emotions, and yourself into this.
I am 5 years out, too, and I have come to the same conclusion as you, that if the WS is not all in within 6 months, then it's time to detach and go on our own. I wish I had done the same, but we can't go back and only go forward.
I have been touched by the out-pouring of support I am receiving, and appreciative of it. Our boys are both over 18, and we have been in MC for years already. With luck we will be finished and D before Thanksgiving.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:03 AM, June 15th (Sunday)]