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User Topic: A Little Confused. Need Clarity
DyingInside21
♀ Member
Member # 42860
Question  Posted: 1:57 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, so I have been implementing the 180 for the last two days since WH refused to enact the NC letter. He is still in IC and dealing with how broken he is and what his selfish behavior has done to me and our M. He is focusing on him (as usual) and I am forced to read and try to deal with this agony all on my own.
I have bad days and a few not so bad days, but with all of the reading I am doing I came across something in the book, After The Affair and I am confused.

In the section that discusses Regaining Trust and how to ask for Low Cost Behavior changes as well as High Cost Behavior changes that will help build trust, the author mentions that if the couple can not agree on any of the High Cost, i.e. The NC Letter, then we need to talk about it and renegotiate the request. It suggests that I should ask myself why I want the requested action and he needs to ask himself why he wont comply and then come to an agreement.

This is a non-negotiable for me. He is forever making everything about him and I am always accommodating his needs. As much as he NEEDS this therapy and he NEEDS to fix himself before we can work on us, this is something that I should be able to have during this horrible process.

He is realizing a lot of shit he has done and NOT done and all that he has put me through and when he finishes a session he calls me to talk about his revelations. I listen without much input and I don't bring us up at all. He apologizes for everything over and over. He gives me a play-by-play about what he is doing, where he has been, what his plans are, but he wont write the damn letter. I think he thinks that doing all of the other stuff will cancel out my request for the letter. It wont. I want it and that is not negotiable.

My question is this. Do I entertain the idea of discussing the NC letter again (renegotiate it) when trying to hold fast to the 180? 180 is hard enough for me right now. I don't want to relinquish power, but I don't want to sabotage any hope by not being open to it. So, who is right?


BS (me) - 39 yo
WH - 45 yo
Together 16 years
Married 5 years
DS 9 yo; DS 7 yo
D-Day 3/20/14
EA: 5 years turned into PA: 2 years with OW.
WH - In IC
BS - In IC; Pursuing MC

Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: So California
hummingbird8
♀ Member
Member # 25086
Default  Posted: 2:19 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me personally, I would tell him not to contact you again until he writes the NC letter and is ready to send it.

Sorry but he doesn't get to make the rules. He cheated, there are consequences. One of those is he has to write a letter. Why is something so small and tiny for him to do such a big issue?

I sure wouldn't be listening to him after his sessions. All he is doing is talking, where are his actions? His refusal to write the letter is an action. Good luck.


Posts: 504 | Registered: Aug 2009
Credence
♂ Member
Member # 42682
Default  Posted: 2:30 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You need to stick to your guns and stick to the 180. As you said, the NC letter is non-negotiable and it needs to happen. I have not read that book so I don't know what context it's being used in but I will say this - anything that you need him to do to help you to heal is a requirement and is non-negotiable (as long as it's reasonable) otherwise there will be no R. He has a second chance to prove himself because he screwed up his first chance so he absolutely does not get to negotiate. If he is making everything about him then he is not showing remorse. If he is resisting doing the things that you need him to do then he is not showing remorse.

Work the 180 hard and wait for him to start showing signs of remorse. Until he starts to show remorse you will not make any progress and it's pointless even talking to him.


If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you always got

Posts: 183 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: UK
SeekingPeace84
♀ Member
Member # 42765
Default  Posted: 3:12 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would strongly urge you to keep to the 180. It's pointless to renegotiate the NC letter before he shows signs of remorse (and being unwilling is a HUGE sign of no remorse).

Listen to the people here who have been in your shoes. The book sounds good, but it's just one person. Here, you have lots of voices who have walked your road. Best of luck to you!

((((((DyingInside21))))))

~Charity


Me: BS
Him: WH (3 month OEA)
Known each other all our lives, Together 5.5 yrs, Married 4 yrs.
D-day: 3/8/14
Separated 3/8/14 and currently seeking IC

Posts: 56 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: USA
OakStreet
♀ Member
Member # 41193
Default  Posted: 5:05 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((DyingInside21))

You should continue the 180.

I don't know the circumstances with the AP, but the NC letter might wait until later?

This is SO new for you and you have a lot ahead of you...((hugs))


Me: 58
Him: 65
Married: 21 years (well, we'll say 19 now!).
One son: 19, 2 adult stepdaughters
DDay: Oct. 14, 2013
18 month EA/PA with COW
Dday #2: 4/16/14 - took it underground for 5 months.
Haven't decided on outcome.

Posts: 430 | Registered: Nov 2013
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think he thinks that doing all of the other stuff will cancel out my request for the letter. It wont. I want it and that is not negotiable.

Have you told him this? If so repeat it, if not tell him. Then go dark. I mean real 180. Not this listening to him yammer on and on about himself. Personally I think you are being too kind. Allowing him to continue in his self involved universe. Tell him he needs to do this, and have proof he has done it prior to contacting you again, and if he has NOT done it by Friday you will be seeking the advice of an attorney.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8489 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Sadmumma
♀ Member
Member # 42192
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This
I think he thinks that doing all of the other stuff will cancel out my request for the letter. It wont. I want it and that is not negotiable.

Have you told him this? If so repeat it, if not tell him.

do tell him, then do this...


Me personally, I would tell him not to contact you again until he writes the NC letter and is ready to send it.

You stated "its about him" the NC letter is about him also. If anything, its more about him than you... even if he cant see it. Its about him setting boundaries....


On any given day you have the power to say "my story is not going to end like this"
Me 41 BS
Him 41 WH
6 kids...7 weeks, 5,7,9,11&13
D day jan 29th 2014

Posts: 535 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Land down under
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off, I don't agree with a lot of After the Affair. I feel the author puts too much on the BS and, as you have found, expects the BS to compromise on issues that just aren't negotiable. I feel she blames the BS, too.

Why are you reading this book? Did IC recommend it or someone here? Some really like the book but many more dislike it and don't find it helpful at all. I would recommend you read Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. Much better book.

I agree that you tell your WH that you want the NC letter and that you are glad that he is in IC and learning about himself but until he writes a NC letter, shows it to you for approval, and it is signed, sealed and delivered that you really don't care to listen to him anymore.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:07 AM, April 1st (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9650 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
DyingInside21
♀ Member
Member # 42860
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After the Affair was recommended to me by another member on the first night I posted here, which was the day after D-Day.
There is a lot about the book I like and what doesn't apply to me or doesn't sit well with me, I ignore or skip.

The reason this gave me pause was because that particular section seemed to resonate with other things I have read on SI and the NC letter stood out. She offers an example similar to NC in the book, but doesn't spell out that is must be written or previewed by the BS before sending, just that it is the first step to healing the BS.

Last night I ordered Not Just Friends And another two books from The Healing Library that seemed better suited for my situation. I was just so desperate for help that I bought the first book suggested as a means to get some answers. Again, I like the book more than I don't, but just needed some real world clarity from members, too.

I told him on the night we had our last talk that I needed it for me to heal. It would be a first step in helping me heal while he is off getting IC, Im stuck, unable to move forward. That was when I told him not to come back to the house unless he was willing to write it. It didn't end well.
I'll repeat it again but only one last time.

Thank you for all your feedback.


BS (me) - 39 yo
WH - 45 yo
Together 16 years
Married 5 years
DS 9 yo; DS 7 yo
D-Day 3/20/14
EA: 5 years turned into PA: 2 years with OW.
WH - In IC
BS - In IC; Pursuing MC

Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: So California
1Faith
♀ Member
Member # 38975
Angry  Posted: 2:26 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My question is this. Do I entertain the idea of discussing the NC letter again (renegotiate it) when trying to hold fast to the 180? 180 is hard enough for me right now. I don't want to relinquish power, but I don't want to sabotage any hope by not being open to it. So, who is right?

I would not bring it up...HE should...

If he truly wants to make this right and R with you, then he will do WHATEVER it takes to make you feel safe.

And that includes he should initiate the NC.

Keep moving and stand up for you. You matter and you don't have to settle.

(((hugs)))


"I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it." - Maya Angelou

Posts: 1141 | Registered: Apr 2013
SeekingPeace84
♀ Member
Member # 42765
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wish you the best as you lay out your boundaries with WH one more time. It's so stinking unfair that you are the one who has to do all these really tough things when HE created this disaster. I really admire your courage and strength to stick to the 180, it really does work. Big hugs to you!

((DyingInside21))


Me: BS
Him: WH (3 month OEA)
Known each other all our lives, Together 5.5 yrs, Married 4 yrs.
D-day: 3/8/14
Separated 3/8/14 and currently seeking IC

Posts: 56 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: USA
steadfast1973
♀ Member
Member # 24719
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A bigger question is, Is he still in contact with her? and How long since there was contact?

edited) Since dday was only last week... then the NC letter is IMPERATIVE. He needs to formally end his A.

"How to help your spouse heal from your affair" is much better for the two of you to read... "After the Affair" is, as mentioned, pretty biased toward the wayward, imho.

[This message edited by steadfast1973 at 3:11 PM, April 1st (Tuesday)]


Me- 40- BS Him- 36- WH D-day#1 5/25/09 3 mo. EA d-day#2 11/06/13 Prostitute 11/5/13 in R
"I've seen your flag on the marble arch, our love is not a victory march, it's a cold and broken hallelujah."- Leonard Cohen

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: Midwest
DyingInside21
♀ Member
Member # 42860
Helpless  Posted: 3:00 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The PA ended a while ago, (according to him) but he was apparently in contact with her as early as a few days before he confessed, via phone, which is why I insisted that he formally end contact. When I initially asked, he seemed so eager to comply. I asked again (when he was at work) and he said he would once he was away from work. The third request was rejected.

After my reaction to his rejection he apologized and said he is doing his best to change and would do whatever it takes to gain my trust. He said he isn't going to contact her again, but he never said he would write the letter. And hasn't mentioned it yet, although I have pulled back and haven't engaged at all. He is the type to avoid the uncomfortable conversations unless I bring them up so with my 180 behavior, he may be feeling a bit of relief from the topic all together.


BS (me) - 39 yo
WH - 45 yo
Together 16 years
Married 5 years
DS 9 yo; DS 7 yo
D-Day 3/20/14
EA: 5 years turned into PA: 2 years with OW.
WH - In IC
BS - In IC; Pursuing MC

Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: So California
justinpaintoday
♂ Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 3:14 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Affairs are addictive. Your WS might be struggling with the reality vs fantasy world. Sadly there is a mourning period for many WS. They mourn the loss of the AP. The loss of the fantasy life. This can be a hard time for the BS; however, be aware it exists.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
DyingInside21
♀ Member
Member # 42860
Default  Posted: 3:22 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JustInPain: It's interesting you say that. It's something to consider while I ponder his reasons to want to do everything else I ask but not that.

I even asked him why he felt so strongly against it when it was so important to me.
I don't believe a thing he says, but when I stress that his ACTIONS have me worried and hurt me, he reacts strongly as if he is trying to convince me that it's not the obvious reason but just that this isn't how HE wants to do things.
He can't shake his selfish behavior and Im not sure I should expect it so soon after only two sessions with his therapist. Im equally frustrated that I cant see the therapist until this Friday and he has already seen her twice. I want to get her perspective on this also. She believes he is in great danger of hurting himself and wants him in as often as possible.

I just feel so stuck and unable to move forward with anything. Makes everything hurt that much worse.

Thanks for your feedback. It helps!


BS (me) - 39 yo
WH - 45 yo
Together 16 years
Married 5 years
DS 9 yo; DS 7 yo
D-Day 3/20/14
EA: 5 years turned into PA: 2 years with OW.
WH - In IC
BS - In IC; Pursuing MC

Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: So California
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 5:03 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((Dying inside)))))

So sorry for all your pain.

Your request is completely reasonable, of course. However, a person doesn't fix a lifetime of poor coping skills overnight.

My H feared control the entire time I knew him (and now that I learned more about his history I know why). It caused problems for us, even immediately after Dday. He just naturally resisted being told what to do, even when it hurt him to refuse. It is possible that his refusal has nothing to do with the OW. But part of "doing anything" is digging deep enough and becoming humble enough to realize that he is not a teenager, you are not his mother, and that he owes you this. This is not control, it's a consequence and necessary for your healing.

It took my H about 4 weeks to become completely humble and give up "resistance", so to speak. I hope with IC help your H can get there soon.

Now, if this is about the OW that's a completely different issue.

Good luck.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1729 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
damaged71
♂ Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 6:04 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After I had absolutely had enough of the waffling behavior of my wife I printed out a list of demands. I handed her the list and told her that she was free to choose to do anything she wanted and I was OK with any decisions she made.

BUT, if she chose not to comply with my list she was making a choice to be divorced. The deal was, if she didn't comply with the list, I didn't want to be married to her anymore. The choice was totally hers but the consequences were very clear for her decisions.

At the end of the day I didn't want to be married to someone that didn't give me the same respect that I had freely given our entire marriage. I got to a point where I was just done. I'm actually still that way. If she chooses another path, no hard feelings, we'll just part ways and I'll be just fine. Once you get there the WS usually knows the cost of being selfish and drops all the bs.

BTW, the list thing goes on into perpetuity. If she EVER breaks NC, it's over, forever. She will have chosen divorce.

After thinking about this a bit the above sounds a great deal like an ultimatum, it's not. I never said she had to do anything. This is what it's going to take to keep me but the choice to keep me or not is completely yours...I'm perfectly OK with whatever you choose.

[This message edited by damaged71 at 7:31 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 342 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
DyingInside21
♀ Member
Member # 42860
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

CatLover50:

My gut tells me it's about the control. He even admitted to having a problem complying because it just wasn't something he would do. He wants to do it his way. What hurt and frustrated me was that he recognized it and still couldn't do it. I cant empathize with the completely self-absorbed person he is.
Intellectually, I get it. But I cant relate to not wanting to stop the hurting that I caused someone I love.

It makes my mind race with other questions that probably aren't valid, but I have no answers. I feel so stuck because nothing has progressed for me. Only him.

Hoping his therapist can help move this along for us both. I had started to make some changes to the way I was treating him after our first talk that went so well and now I feel like I have to recoil and it is upsetting.

It almost feels like game playing and Im not sure how this is productive. Friday can not come soon enough. Im suffocating in grief. Not a good day!


BS (me) - 39 yo
WH - 45 yo
Together 16 years
Married 5 years
DS 9 yo; DS 7 yo
D-Day 3/20/14
EA: 5 years turned into PA: 2 years with OW.
WH - In IC
BS - In IC; Pursuing MC

Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: So California
tushnurse
♀ Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not sure why you are waffling on this. NC and sending an NC note is an absolute as far as I am concerned and the if he says no to it, you can't say well I will try again when he quits feeling sorry for himself.

NO NO NO. You HAVE to show him you mean business and if he chooses to NOT send it then you HAVE to have a consequence for him. By not doing this you are showing him he can continue to be self serving, and your needs don't matter. Not a fun way to spend the rest of your life, and if you are counting on his IC fixing this you best be prepared to never factor in to any of his decisions.

Show him you mean it, demand the respect you deserve. If he is wanting to R, then he would be willing to do ANYTHNG, and I mean ANYTHING that you ask to help you heal your heart.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8489 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Gotmegood
♀ Member
Member # 41407
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It reeks to me of what is referred to as the 'fog'. In your shoes, I would feel that again, his needs and desires are trumping yours. I would feel as though he was in some way 'protecting' the OW; or protecting his image in her eyes, or in some way not shutting the door completely.
I think too, that you are correct in analyzing this as maybe a control issue. Thing is though, while you are reeling in shock and unimaginable pain, he should NOT be arm-wrestling you over an issue so instrumental to your healing. Good luck.


Me: faithful wife 62.
Him: WH 64 , prostitute 20 yr old
DDay: 8-13-2013
Status: boinging up and down like a yo-yo

Posts: 462 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Florida
Topic Posts: 20

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