The insecurity STBXWW threw at me, during our failed attempt at R, was "you're bigger, but OM lasts longer". Messed me up until about a month and a half ago when I covered it with my IC. Very early in the relationship we had agreed that we would be open to going to a sex therapist if anything were to feel wrong on either of our sides. She never mentioned anything and I thought everything was going well. I did everything to get her close enough first, and paced myself and timed things properly to finish together as much as I could. That she refused foreplay and heavy kissing towards the end of our relationship definitely had an impact here as well.
After talking with my IC at length (he of course has talked to many men about this) we decided that I probably last more or less the same than most other men, and that I shouldn't trip on this until it becomes an issue with someone new; some people last longer and others less naturally and it even changes depending on season, mood and mutual attraction - it was likely another empty excuse she used to justify the A.
Now for the truly TMI:
The other thing she said, sexually (and our tip-off that the above excuse was really an excuse), was that I "wasn't as willing to be submissive" once she started experimenting with the 50 shades of gray stuff during the latter part of the A. OM was supposedly very willing, and WW preferred to be the dominant (I didn't have a preference and still don't as sex only went there a few times, and during what I now understand was a very broken situation).
This may be more on target, but check this out. She started getting into that stuff, and with roles that spoke more to her FOO issues (she's a CSAB survivor as very young and OM hit her during their relationship as teenagers) than to any real open interest (which I would think would make the person be more fluid in said roles, as you'd be trying to find out what you like and where you fit in that). Clearly, to me, she was compensating for her feelings of having been abused by consensually abusing others, and certainly wouldn't practice it any other way. In my opinion, to her, this was about dominance, not sex and certainly not love nor luuurv. In fact, in OM's case, sounds like a twisted form of revenge, if it turns out he represents her past abusers in her mind (which would explain their tortured, love/hate relationship).
No judging anyone who practices it, but this may have completely triggered me off BDSM, even "light". Which would be perfectly fine by me - I don't have a particular interest, and until I have someone new who is interested and I'm in a healthy relationship with her I don't feel the need to explore that (who would I explore anything with right now?)
Since I don't know a lot about that culture, is there something in that community that appeals or repels people with a history of abuse, or forces them into specific roles? Is that healthy psychologically or does it break one more? I really would like to know, as there's a lot of mental work she will have to do that I'd like to become familiar with if she ever comes back with real remorse, and it seems to me that if you have something broken in you, this kind of practice could really destroy your life if done outside a committed relationship (it seems to have destroyed STBXWW's).
Any and all welcome, but I'd like to hear specially from any sex therapists out there who can talk about this.
The ancillary question: how many marriages is the 50 shades book improving versus destroying?
Maybe this doesn't apply, but in the honor of TMI and a relationship that really did a number on me sexually. I was with a woman for three years. She never explicitly said it, but looking back with all the evidence that was there, I'm fairly certain she was sexually abused by her father. If not her father someone else very close. I was also very young at the time 19 - 21 and did not know how to handle it at all. She was a few years older than me. She had never had an orgasm in her life. She would initiate sex all the time but her not having an orgasm ever was really doing a number on me psychologically. I never had any issues with any other women before or after that relationship getting any partner to have an orgasm. So for the TMI, BDSM thing.... She never asked me to tie her up. However, getting towards the end of our second year together and a few months after we moved in together, she started to tell me that I was not forceful enough with her. Long story short, she would ask me to beat her. I mean she told me she wanted me to put her in pain. She wanted me to slap her, punch her, bite her, abuse her breasts, etc. These are all things she asked for. These are all things that make me Not fun for me. But since I was such a head case and couldn't get her to orgasm and it's what she wanted, I obliged. AND IT WAS FUCKING AWFUL!!! She started to cry. I started to cry. I couldn't do it for more than 30 seconds. She kept begging me to. WTF was that all about? She would never tell me what it was all about. I tried it again a second time after weeks of begging me to do it. I tried but didn't last more than 30 seconds again. I can't do that. Not fun. Pain = horrible. It wasn't so much BDSM as she was looking for rough abusive sex. We hung on for another year and had a really painful breakup. But I could never do that again and it really fucked me up. After her I didn't want to have sex anymore if that was what it was going to be like. Fortunately for me in my next relationship that girl screwed my head back on straight (pun intended). Because of the painful breakup we never spoke again. But I've always wondered if she ever got help and is ok. WTF would drive someone to ask and want that shit? The only answer I can some up with is truly evil shit happened to her. This is someone I deeply cared about. I hope she's going through life in a better place.
As far as the ancillary question, 50 Shades increased my wife's sex drive exponentially. But it went back to normal after reading that series. We benefitted while she read them. However!! My wife has also been sexually abused starting at age 16 with her relationships. Over the summer as we started to turn towards each other and work on our marriage, she asked me to buy some cuffs because she wanted to try them out like something out of 50 shades. So...TMI again...I went and bought this restraint under the bed thingy where you can either restrain your hands, feet, or both. She got excited. Another long story short, I was ver confused at the time, she decided she didn't want to use it. It was too much for her and she was afraid of losing control. Fine. I instantly let it go because I don't care. Her idea. Recently we figured out her control issues do to the sexual abuse. The bed restraint thingy was still in place. I asked her if she would like to tie me down. She tried it and loved it. She had complete control. However, no pain involved!!! She knew of my past (above) and didn't want that anyway. She used me in a very slow, controlled, loving way while I had all fours tied down and I have to say....it was awesome. She can do that to me anytime she wants.
He never asked me to participate, since in his words he says he loved me too much to take me into his messed up world. That also meant no physical relationship for us. He wasn't capable of having real intimacy with me.
Can someone have a healthy relationship with bdsm? I have no idea. I've only ever seen warped unhealthy versions of it that do seem to stem from FOO issues.
And thank you both for sharing such difficult stories.
[This message edited by sadone29 at 5:23 PM, March 18th (Tuesday)]
you're bigger, but OM lasts longer".
just sounds like an attempt to hurt you. I don't think you should give it any weight.
Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson
Don't let her damage become your damage. That comment has nothing to do with you. Really.
However, he is a very giving lover. And I don't fake it anymore. And he is also very open to toys in the bedroom. I do have trouble reaching O and that helps. The answer "I think so" to whether or not your W does orgasm is a bit confusing. I don't mean to generalize but I think most people know whether they do or don't...maybe some more discussion about that would be a good place to start.
BDSM is a trust based practice.
If you are truly interested in it read a great book about called The Loving Dominant. Sexually I have always tended to be submissive wanting my partner, H to be in control and push the comfort levels and stretch my horizons.
It has been a fun and growth experience for us.
It didn't go far, just some toys, nipple vibrators, outfits for her, something to cover the eyes and a small leather whip (note: I haven't read 50 shades, but I read some of her book).
Re: Bigger vs lasting longer - I also think it was an attempt to hurt me. It no longer bothers me that much - the way I see it (I know size doesn't matter, but...), I can fix any issue of mine lasting not as long, but he can't get any bigger. Now go tell him OM same thing and let's see what he does (what lover would want to know they're smaller than the husband?).
@yearsofpain25 wow, what a story. I'm very sorry for you. I can't imagine going through that, but happy to hear you've recovered and found happiness there. Definitely not letting her damage become mine. Though it may be years before I have sex again as it is. Never had "good game" with the ladies, and I won't pay for it, I'm just not that kind of person.
@Teach8, I loved her for 18 years, and I was very giving, all the years we were together. Also had lots of fun with toys with her. I'm 99.99% sure sex wasn't the issue. She was.
@BAB61 when she tried it on me we didn't talk about safe words or anything, but I did have her stop pretty early on (the whip, not so much, as I said, not into pain). We continued in other ways and it was fun. She didn't attempt again, and I'm sure she continued this with OM. I wonder if he was a lot into that and that's how she got into it. I don't know and won't ask, as the answer is likely to ruin a part of the sexual landscape for me and it won't play any part on my healing.
I believe it's this whole weird Plan B illusion thing she had where a) she'd find me "good", b) she'd "test me" without me being aware of it, c) she'd find me "wanting" and d) would go to OM. Who, since he treated her like crap, would make her angry, going back to (a). I believe she actually still does it I believe. It's sick and I've told her about this cycle. She doesn't admit it and gets angry about it (which tells me it's true), but to me it's clear as day. As you say, in a trust based context, I would be ok with continuing exploring that. But I'm heading for final D fast so we're probably never going to get there unless she changes a lot. Also in her Madonna/Whore complex thing I'm the Madonna. So that would also have to change to make it palatable to her.
@sadone it's his Madonna/whore complex (as I mentioned above). He can't have a functional sexual relationship with you that pushes the envelope because he thinks you're "too pure". It sucks, because it kills intimacy and impedes the sexual growth of the couple.
@tushnurse I am not interested yet. When I have a relationship again, if she's interested, I'll revisit. Not in a hurry to change sexual practices while I'm being involuntarily celibate.
I kinda figure that *in general* our sexual tastes are innate, a bit like orientation. We like what we like. We are sexually motivated by anything because we're born with the inclination.
BUT, with the added idea that our tastes can be cultivated.
I liken it to food. Some of us live for certain treats (chocolate anyone?) and it enjoys wide popularity, but I also know I really, really like caramel flavor and my best friend doesn't.
And we *tend* to like what's familiar so Mom's good ol' home cooking will probably always have a place in our hearts, whether it's squid eyeballs for the holidays (gefilte fish?) or meatloaf.
But that doesn't mean we can't learn to develop our "taste" for other unfamiliar "flavors."
None of this addresses sexual abuse because I think that horror lies outside proclivity. I'm SURE inborn psychology plays into it (resilience, temperament, etc.) but I think with something as dramatic as what you experienced with that woman, well, that would probably take a trained professional years to untangle for the poor dear. Not for us amateurs. Sorry she hurts and sorry she hurt you in the process.
Since I don't know a lot about that culture, is there something in that community that appeals or repels people with a history of abuse, or forces them into specific roles? Is that healthy psychologically or does it break one more?
There are many people in the culture with a history of abuse and little to zero boundaries. This is rampant but I'm not going to suggest that it's all that worse than the rest of the world.
Forcing people into a role isn't typically what it's about. Often, the timid will want to be dominant and the in control type A will want to be submissive. Some people are 'switches' map earning they enjoy playing both roles, at least from time to time.
Basically, in a healthy BDSM type relationship, it is based on explicit trust, caring and safety. There are typically strict guidelines in all aspects...even just going to a BDSM club.
A solid Dom/me will do things after spending quite a lot of time with a sub and getting to understand their desires, the why's, what their hard lines actually are and establishing the all important safe word. Many will actually draw up a contract of sorts or have a lengthy questionnaire.
In an ideal situation with a solid, knowledgable Dom/me, a safe place can be offered to a sub interested in exploring these realms and it can be extremely bonding and emotionally cathartic.
Btw, many, many times, sex is not part of the game and not a goal. It can be but it isn't right to assume it always is.
Many hurting people do flock to this. I remember every weekend at our club, there was this little, dapper, be speckled guy pole dancing in assless chaps with a BIG smile on his face. He was the sub of all subs, happy as a clam. His thing wasn't being broken, it was taking a weekly break from control. During the week, he was a big time attorney. Always on point, always in control so the reasons vary but yes, hurting people are drawn like flies.
One of the worst parts of this is that for every solid, responsible Dom/me there are hundreds of power hungry people who don't give a flying fuck about who the sub is nor where they come from. They will push hard lines. They will flippantly work over someone who is truly sick. They will do disgusting things that cross into just wrong.
As for helping or breaking further...this is tricky. I think someone trying to understand the abuse they suffered as a child (for example) by delving into BDSM with a solid Dom/me who understands aftercare and where the person is coming from might actually find so,e real release to pent up pain but this would have to be handled so carefully.
In lesser experienced hands or in the hands of one of the millions of fools, utter disaster.
As for trying at home with a child sexual abuse survivor? I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
You don't want your partner aligning feelings for you with her abusers for any reason. I strongly feel that kink play that involves pain, bondage, flogging or anything similar at home is for healthy people with strong boundaries and a strong relationship.
I hope that helps. I'm not a sex therapist but I play one on TV.
Okay, just kidding but I do have quite a bit of experience and observation in this subject matter.
I was abused as a child. And as a teen. And many, many times in my relationship with Ex. He loved to be forceful and I tried to love it for him. I don't mind some light to moderate BDSM in a safe and loving environment every once in a while but being pinned down by the throat and forced into very uncomfortable positions and told that they'd like to hear me crying and begging for him to stop, almost every time? No, that's awful. Ex is a very twisted individual. And I tried to make excuses for him. He's a very skilled abuser and refined giving Stockholm Syndrome to a fine art. Well, as it turns out, he was greatly aroused by the idea of my childhood abuse and it seems was playing out some kind of twisted fantasy situation on what he pictured happening.
So, I don't think BDSM naturally draws in people who have been abused but I can see why people who have never processed their emotions on the subject would. It's quite common for trauma victims to repeat behaviours until you've subconsciously made sense of them and laid the issue to rest.
I do think BDSM draws in people who enjoy the idea f abusing their partner without fear of arrest. I do believe that 100%. Not everyone of course- maybe 5% of the people that practise it are doing it 100% for their own enjoyment and part of that enjoyment is the pain and suffering they can cause with little fear of reprisal. Fifty shades of grey (terribly written book) has, I fear, given a license to act on things that would normally have ended relationships and initiated an arrest- but that book somehow made it into general public thought and made it far more permissible to abuse ones partner in a sexual and emotional way. Again, NOT everyone. A minority, but a significant one nonetheless. Just as people seem obsessed with zombies and vampires now, they also seem more into BDSM and just as you will always get your people who like to live their life as if they are a vampire or zombie (special people indeed) you will also get the ones who use an idea like 50 shades as a license to hurt others
I also was involved with another woman who always brought along a bag of tricks when we had sex. Toys, restraints, blindfolds etc. She really liked being played with while she was tied up. This woman could orgasm multiple times when we engaged in her games, but if we had just conventional sex she seemed to just want to get it over with. She also loved to go out to a club first dance, drink, get high then hit a hotel afterwards. It was always the same routine in order for her to be satisfied sexually. She too had an odd relationship with her family. Now mind you both of these women were very attractive and could have had any guy/girl they wanted. Being young, dumb and horny I went along with them as long as it did not cross my own personal boundaries. But I did notice that after being with the 2 of them I kind of liked and took a more dominant role when it came to sex. Not about bondage or being rough. But when I have sex I like to run the show so to speak. It has caused me some issues in other relationships as I don't like it when a tries to take charge and please me. I don't come from a family where SA occurred. We were abused verbally, mentally and physically as my Mom had a heavy hand. But I can see that those relationships affected my future sexual practices. I don't know if its FOO or abuse that motivates these things. Sometimes people simply like what they like. And I feel as long as its adults consenting to it what's the harm ? Hey we all need to get our freak on once in awhile. But I will agree if its some sort of acting out due to past abuse issues it must be explored in IC.
With that said, whatever happens in the bedroom needs to be something that both of you want. It needs to be good (and agreed upon) by both parties.
And I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post! I'm sure there are healthy bdsm relationships out there. I just tend to attract those who don't have a healthy view of it, so I have no idea what these relationships look like. If everyone's happy and trusting, then play on.
what lover would want to know they're smaller than the husband?
I don't think a woman ever tells a man that he's smaller than another. I think all men get the "you're bigger" story.