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User Topic: WH wrote me a Letter...
Lostinthemidst
♀ New Member
Member # 42814
Question  Posted: 8:50 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After my first post yesterday explaining the tough week I have had something new has happened. My WH wrote me a letter. It took him hours and it basically outlines his entire A. I am hoping for your thoughts on a few things.... I am so confused right now it is hard for me to take anything at face value...I am afraid to let myself truly think he is sincere in a lot of what he says, but in this letter I really feel like he is trying to be honest with me...but still fear he is hiding more.

I am going to quote the beginning of the letter, he explains why he is writing it:

As per the usual, I thought about things a lot, trying to piece together what I have missed or withheld along the way. I realized around 0400 this morning that I have been so scattered with what I have shared, that I have not been as clear as I could be or should have been. I’m going to write it out. This is it, this is everything.

I told you last night that if there is more, you can divorce me. There are no more sex stories or admissions or occurrences or anything. What I told you is everything. I do think there is more to give/clarify on the morning and evening time that she and I spent. I hope you will read all of this, understanding that it has been very hard for me. I look back at each time we have talked about details and each answer I give, leads to anger from you and a whole new barrage of questions. For a person that has led a life of conflict avoidance and emotional avoidance, this always sends me into an emotional and mental freeze. I feel like a trapped animal, needing to escape this hole I have fallen into. In trying to salvage the best thing that I have ever had, I have tried to stick in there and give you every bit of truth that I can, but it has been really hard to let it all go at once, to have my thoughts and facts together. To remember the details, so you don’t think I am lying or avoiding. What I give you here…what I give us here, is everything. I hope you will read it and see the fact that I am trying so very hard to give you all I have, so that we can move forward. I love you, I want to spend my life with you, need to spend my life with you. I want and need to be an honest person and I hope you see that I am trying with all I’ve got

When he told me he was writing me a letter, part of me felt like he was trying to write it all out so that from now on when I ask questions he could just say to me *refer to the letter* and not discuss it anymore. Last night I asked him to read the *Joseph's Letter* here in the healing library. This morning he told me how helpful it was for him to read that and he would be more understanding.

He sent me the letter last night very late and asked if he could go to bed and we talk about it tonight. So I have not spoken to him at all about my thoughts on all the details.

The affair content in the letter is quite detailed...there was some new information and tidbits that I found helpful...especially as he talked about his emotional state through out it. I have to say in the end I feel a little better.
Do you think this was a real honest attempt at communication? or is he just trying to throw me off...I am scared...Afraid to let myself breath and think "ok now I know every disgusting detail."

One other thing I need help with. In the letter he admits this:

After I sent her the first mean note that you helped write, I went to her office and stood in the door to “see if she got it.” The real thing that you want to know is that I apologized for how direct and mean it was and told her that I needed to show you that I was serious. After I came home and told you that I checked on her to see if she got the email, your reaction scared me enough to wake up and not give a single fuck about how she takes the whole thing. Every interaction and “contact report” after that has been completely open and honest.

some background here.. We wrote the NC letter during Christmas vacation. When he went back to work I asked him a couple of times "did she respond" He said No. On like his third day back he told me he went to her office to "see if she got it" she said yes, and that was all they talked about and he walked away. When he told me this that night,I lost my mind. Telling him WTF is the point of a NC letter if you then seek her out and contact her for ANY REASON! NC means NC!!!

I just asked if she responded...expecting her too...I did not want him to go find out...and certainly not for him to say he only wrote it that way for me...I was always very suspicious of this interaction. I can try and be rational here and think that he was in a confused state and feeling guilty what he had done to me and for just dropping her, because I know he is a good person (typically)

Should I feel less confident now in any of his daily *contact reports* to me about his time at work? Or should I see this as him telling me the truth and a good sign that he was willing to admit it? is committed to NC?

This is long...thank you for reading.


ME: BW 35
HIM: WH 41
1 year EA/PA with COW
D-Day: November 23 2013
Married 11 years
3 kids
working our way towards R waiting for the Trickle to end...

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2014
Lostinthemidst
♀ New Member
Member # 42814
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wanted to add that it now makes sense why it required 2 letters to her (a week apart) for her to get the picture that it was over.


ME: BW 35
HIM: WH 41
1 year EA/PA with COW
D-Day: November 23 2013
Married 11 years
3 kids
working our way towards R waiting for the Trickle to end...

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2014
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This seems along the same lines of my husband. He shuts down too when I react to his behavior and words. It feels to me like he abandons me every time. I sat for hours and hours in silence in the beginning, staring at the wall, not looking directly at him, waiting for his response. Then he'd say he was tired, turn over and fall asleep. My heart was beating so hard in my chest that it wasn't possible for me to sleep. WTF!

Him falling asleep was another way to avoid the situation. We had it out again last night and he went and laid down on the sofa. Didn't interact with the kids, didn't say a damn word to me. We are 4 years out.

My heartfelt advice to you is that his issues will make R difficult. He MUST get into weekly therapy to try to deal with these issues or you don't have a chance. He will always want to hide info, manipulate the truth, to avoid consequences. He also sounds like he's afraid of negative feelings of his own (guilt, anger-all the "bad" feelings). He needs to learn how to identify and handle his own emotions. You can't get better as a couple until he gets better as an individual.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1762 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
confused615
♀ Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sounds to me like he is feeling sorry for himself.

Nope. Don't allow that shit. You just found out a few months ago that he has had an affair. AND he still works with her. He is not the victim here..he is the perpetrator.

It also sounds like he is telling you you have to treat him with kid gloves, so as not to upset him or he will shut down.

He also sounds like he wants to rugsweep..he will tell you "everything"...and then you can just move forward. He needs to understand that isn't how it's going to happen.

So...after he sent her the NC email that you saw..he then goes into her office and apologizes for being "mean" to her so you would think he was serious.

Um....what? So it's more important that the OW's feelings aren't hurt than protecting his wife.

As long as he continues to work with her, you will never know if their interactions are "honest" and about "business only." He needs to start looking for another job.

Unfortunately, most WS's TT for a long time. I think you are very wise to question if you know everything.

Maybe a polygraph?


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,10
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7478 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Lostinthemidst
♀ New Member
Member # 42814
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think my clipping of the letter may make it seem like he is feeling sorry for himself. However I have not honestly had felt that from him.

Once confronted he has owned this completely. Never suggesting it was something wrong in the marriage, something I was lacking, didn't do, or did do. He spent the first few weeks up with me talking into the wee hours of the morning, but it seems like he became exhausted by it. However I need more, I just can't shake the questions...and yes the TT has made it so much worse for me...if only he could see how just laying it all out there right away...might just make this healing take place faster...or at least more smoothly.


talking about the Josephs letter seems to have helped...he said, now he sees that it isn't me punishing him forever unable to move on, he has been feeling hopeless...now seeing that it is part of the process...even I have wondered if it is normal, or a sign that I wont be able to move on...

I totally fear the rug sweep you are describing though.

I agree he struggles with his emotions...and avoiding conflict and consequences...I hope he will seek therapy...something I would like to see him do, but also hope he will seek it on his own without me insisting...so sitting back a bit on that one for now.

Thank you!!


ME: BW 35
HIM: WH 41
1 year EA/PA with COW
D-Day: November 23 2013
Married 11 years
3 kids
working our way towards R waiting for the Trickle to end...

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2014
painfulpast
♀ Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Hugs)))

I don't think it's the clipping that makes it read like he's trying for sympathy. For me it was him explaining his conflict avoidance, and reminding you how difficult this is for him. He seems to want credit for making an effort, and sympathy for how challenging this is, particularly for him.

That was the first thing I got from this. With others seeing it, I'd bet that's what he's doing. He may always have been like this, and if so you may not see it.

I hope he's able to give you what you need, and I hope he's able to do so without continually wanting credit. After all, he had no problem causing such destruction. To think any praise is coming to him for trying to stop the bleeding is really, IMO, just more selfish me me me thinking.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
solus sto
♀ Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


It sounds to me like he is feeling sorry for himself....

It also sounds like he is telling you you have to treat him with kid gloves, so as not to upset him or he will shut down.

I agree. And your response to this (taking responsibility for how his very own words make him "look," when, in fact, they are his words--which include an awful lot of Is and mes ) seems to indicate that, to a large degree, it's working.

I'm glad he's communicating. That is huge. But he has a way to go. He is intellectualizing, and it does not seem as though he's really feeling the magnitude of his betrayal or, more particularly, its impact on you. Empathy is missing from the letter. Regret is present, but I don't sense deep remorse. I get the sense of, "this is what you wanted. I'm giving it to you, even though it's so, so hard for me" which smacks of imminent rug-sweeping. Don't let that occur.

Don't misunderstand. This is a good start. But it's just a start. I hope he intends to keep digging; without knowing what else was in the letter, I'm left feeling as though you were told he was digging deep when he really wasn't---as though, if he told you how much he was digging, it would distract you from the fact that he was not.


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8723 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
Lostinthemidst
♀ New Member
Member # 42814
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

These insights are helpful thank you. I am always assuming that he gives me "just enough" more info...because over the last 4 months...it has been constant *just a bit more* to satisfy the conversation now...like he has been holding on to hope that this will be the last time I ask... and he wont have to admit to anything else. He says it is his desire to protect me from pain, but I think it is about facing his own demons.

The entire letter is too huge to share, and has too many real names to edit out...it is also quite graphic in detail about sexual encounters.. which is what I wanted for some bizarre reason that I don't understand myself...maybe I am masochistic and need to torture myself with the specifics...but I guess really it is because my imagination is much much worse than the reality.


ME: BW 35
HIM: WH 41
1 year EA/PA with COW
D-Day: November 23 2013
Married 11 years
3 kids
working our way towards R waiting for the Trickle to end...

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2014
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((hugs)))

The single part that I cannot get beyond is that he calls he NC letter to OW "mean." Seriously? He wrote some words that were "mean" and felt so bad about it he went and stood in her doorway?

But is actions (up to and including seeking out the OW after NC) his actions have potentially destroyed his marriage, his wife has been betrayed and is telling him that she needs NO CONTACT and he still has to deal with the possible hurt feelings of the OW at the expense of the hurt feelings (now and future) of his wife.

After I sent her the first mean note that you helped write

To me, an outsider reading just pieces of his letter, this sounds like he still feels like the letter was mean, the OW has feelings, he cares about her feelings and "you made him do it" so that is why the letter is mean. That is the message that he carried to the OW as well. That the words and feelings weren't his, they were yours.

I hope he gives you what you need. I hope that you feel like your feelings are at a higher priority than OW's and his own need to be ok with the OW.


Me: 44, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 13 DS 10
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5841 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
norabird
♀ Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the tone seems promising. Just wait, watch his actions, and see if he follows through on the message he's sending with his words. Time will tell.

Is he looking for a new job?


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4190 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
eachdayisvictory
♀ Member
Member # 40462
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi there,

The beginning is so SO hard. The betrayal means that you have had your ability to believe in safety and people completely taken away from you, and it will take some time for that to begin to return - if it does at all. I rarely look here in JFO because it is very difficult to read about the pain people are in at the beginning of this journey, but the title popped out at me because I love letters and hearing about WS perspective.

Honestly, my instinctual reaction to this is that your H is sincere. I may hear some of the same 'trying for sympathy' as other posters put it, but I think that's a pretty human thing to do - even if he doesn't deserve it yet, or you aren't able to give it yet. I hear a WS who is well on his way to genuine remorse. I think he's still in the 'regret' stage, but moving toward remorse.

Perhaps you can share this defenition of the two words with your H that another SI poster wrote (I wrote it in my phone because I like it so much);

Regret says "my decisions turned out badly, I need help getting out of these circumstances I got myself into."
Remorse says "I made the wrong decisions, I need to change my entire life so those sorts of decisions aren't attractive to me anymore."

So, your H going to her and telling her that he 'had to' write that letter and apologizing to her, that was bad. I felt the shot to the heart that you must have felt as I read that. I also saw that he came completely clean to you (IMO) and explained in detail his surprise and acknowledgement of your reaction to this news. He cares about you. He cares about your thoughts and opinions. He read what you asked him to, and wrote you tons of his thoughts. Maybe you could focus on those things, and how hard he is willing to work for you. It will take a lot of time, and you will have a lot more hurt. But as a reader of your post and survivor of infidelity (so far), I say keep going - if YOU want to.

Hugs and hugs and hugs to you.

You are not alone, and you will NOT feel this bad forever! Keep telling yourself that!

[This message edited by eachdayisvictory at 2:11 PM, March 18th (Tuesday)]


me, BW: 34
FWH: 35
Dday: Feb 2013
LTA for 2+years
children: 2 boys age 3 and 6
Reconciling

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: nova Scotia, Canada
devasted30
♀ Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny, but I don't read his letter the way the others do at all. Maybe because my WH avoids conflict like crazy too. His parents never fought. He lied anytime he thought he might get in trouble bc he had no idea how to fight. He too shuts down when there is conflict. He is trying very hard now to face conflict but when you've never learnt how, its damn close to impossible. His IC is helping him face this and learn how to stop avoiding conflict; how to face it head on. These type of people (passive aggressives) resent being yelled at or argued with. When I yell and scream, he retreats into a shell. For years, I just assumed that he got my point and agreed with me. Not the case at all. He just let all the resentment built and finally it boiled over. That and a horrible bout of depression. I, also, need to learn not to yell. To try to argue in a civilized manner. But after growing up in a household of 5 kids, all of us yelling for our individual attention, it is a hard habit to break. And I see him closing up. And then I push even harder and try to get him to engage etc. it sounds to me like this is what your WS is saying. I could very well be wrong, but in our case, this is how it is. You know him better than any of us, trust your gut.

Posts: 1222 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
SeanFLA
♂ Member
Member # 32380
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Large amount of "I's" in there. It's not remorse when everything begins with "I" this and "I" that.

It may be a good start but it's still about him. Not how he hurt YOU and your marriage. Until he gets that...boo-fucking-hoo. Let him shut shut down or whatever he's whining about. At this time it's about you and him having to chase you. If you don't keep that stance all he's doing is looking to continue playing victim and a cheap way out of his poor choices. If he was truly remorseful he will come begging on his knees. Even my IC and psychiatrist stated that.

[This message edited by SeanFLA at 12:12 PM, March 18th (Tuesday)]


BS(me) 48
WW 46
1 son 14 yrs old
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs

"You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have." ~ Bob Marley


Posts: 1470 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: Zombie Land
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He says it is his desire to protect me from pain, but I think it is about facing his own demons.

You are right about this. Him not telling the truth is KEEPING you in pain. The one he is trying to protect with the half truths is himself. Tell him that and make sure he understands it. He's only fooling himself with his bullshit claims of protecting you.

PP are right about him wanting credit and you should be careful with this. Once my WH started feeling like he could be angry he decided to be angry with me being upset with his lies. What? Plus he was absolutely flabbergasted that his puny efforts didn't produce a parade down Main Street in his name. How dare I say he hasn't tried! After years of this(<-please read that-YEARS) he admitted last month that he hadn't actually "tried", he thought it would all just work itself out.

Trust me, I NEVER gave him that impression. He has been told from day one what he needs to be doing.

Now when I call him out on his shit I don't know which douche I'm going to have to deal with. The angry jerk or the whiny pity party cry baby. Neither one knows how to deal with his failures.

I told you last night that if there is more, you can divorce me.
Can I just mention this too? You don't need his permission to divorce him and he doesn't have to fail something else for it to be possible either. Entitled delusion and trying to convince you that his words are honest-THIS TIME.


Most of all remember to listen to him with your eyes. His actions count more than his words. He lies-he has made his words meaningless. His actions will tell you if he means it.

And honey-you need to demand he be in therapy. You can't wait around for him to do the right thing. He's spent all this time and effort to avoid doing what's right. He will avoid any bad feelings if he can, you know this. He has proven it with his actions many times already. Tell him to go or else.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 12:14 PM, March 18th (Tuesday)]


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1762 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eachdayisvictory...


gently, I think that it's kind of strange to ask for advice here in the JFO forum from (in general) other people who JFO about their betrayals

The beauty about JFO (and SI in general) is that it's not limited to brand new members, we have many veterans that help endlessly in this forum. So the thread fits right in for JFO.

Thank you


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197926 | Registered: May 2002
Lostinthemidst
♀ New Member
Member # 42814
Default  Posted: 1:30 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

oh boy! second day here and my first locked thread

Sorry for my ignorance about duplicates.

p.s.
I didn't feel chased out, I just thought; "oh maybe she is right"

I had not given much thought to what forums would be most appropriate for a given question. Thinking people likely float all over...like this newbie trying to soak up every bit of information possible. However it does make sense. Not that I didn't appreciate or value the advice I received here. It is much appreciated!!


ME: BW 35
HIM: WH 41
1 year EA/PA with COW
D-Day: November 23 2013
Married 11 years
3 kids
working our way towards R waiting for the Trickle to end...

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2014
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You're doing just fine


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197926 | Registered: May 2002
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

oh boy! second day here and my first locked thread

Newbie rebels end up making GREAT staff a few years later.


If life is just a series of ridiculous attempts to be alive, you're a hero. - J. Winger

Posts: 17529 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i guess a really important question is ... did the timeline clarify things for you? did it answer most of the unanswered questions (obviously it may bring new questions up, but im sure you understand what i mean).

if so, you can see this as a positive step towards healing.
if not, then there is a problem.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 546 | Registered: Jan 2014
Neverwudaguessed
♀ Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I may not be in a position to offer advice since I a only 6 months out from initial confession, but my own husband could have written the description about the conflict avoidance and what happens to him when you become angry and upset. If this is a lifelong reaction or coping skill (or lack of, more accurately), then he is opening up and sharing his hardship with you. He is suffering too, although his is a different suffering; you had no control over the suffering caused to you and he had it all, but has to live with a break down in integrity that is not your burden as a betrayed, so different, but never the less, suffering.
Please listen to you gut about your reaction to the letter, sit back and wait to see if his actions in the near future support your feelings. ((Lostinthemidst)) You will know if you are getting a solid beginning to the goal you are looking towards if you really look at him and how he proceeds….


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 600 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
Topic Posts: 31
Pages: 1 · 2

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