I can relate in a way to your feelings of losing to the alpha male. My wives OM was a 'boyfriend' from the year prior to her meeting me. Lets say that he was really just a easy no inhibition fuck buddy over a 5 month period. Contrast to my M, my WW has major anxiety and other emotional issues, so lets just say that the sex has never been uninhibited, carefree, etc. with kids involved and strings attached. My WW just does not seem to be able to let go in a real life relationship of stress, bills to pay, you name it. I contrast that to my *perception* that OM got to have the better sex because of the care free environment. So I get the unfairness and feeling that OM got the better deal. With the A, and the escape to nice hotels, lets say that feeling mushroomed.
But it really is just a construct in your head. I know it be true (for me) on a rational level.
I like Phantom's advice. And I think the truth can sometimes hurt. But it does sound like your wife is being honest with you *about then*. She is right the you need to move through this. She does not need to be a jerk, though. She needs to be empathetic and understand.
for you Stu, I recommend that you:
1. Make sure you get all the truth, no matter how painful. Time to shed the illusions we cling to.
2. Give her credit for honesty.
3. Focus on where she is now ( and most recent years ) with the marriage. That is what you have.
4. YOU need to figure out why you proposed to her at a relationship low point, when she told you she was ambivalent and going on a date, and did so OVER the phone. Red flags there for you bro. You have to heal some unresolved stuff there and it ain't going to be easy.
5. If you WW has been faithful since the wedding, that is what you have: a faithful wife. Figure out if that is true, focus on that, deal with you ego.
6. Give your wife assurances and evidence of your self work in exchange for her compassion and understanding and patience.
7. Comparisons to other men ain't going to be fair, since the experience is driven by where their head is emotionally at the time, not just what the partner was like.
good luck stu. You can get through this.
But I keep getting *hung up* on the fact that she accepted your proposal of marriage while she was actively in the middle of having sex with OM. Also the diary writing stuff. What the OM wrote in her diary is extremely hateful towards you and extremely disrespectful towards her. The fact that your WW read what the OM wrote and didn't throw him out immediately is indicative of some serious issues on her part. If she has never had any type of therapy in the interim, I'll bet that those same issues are still inside her, lurking.
She said that she didnít plan on a sexual experience with this guy
I am a very firm believer that you cannot make good decisions without having the truth about all relevant issues.....so what I'm leading up to here is that you are going to have to directly ask her if she has cheated in any way, type, or form during the marriage. I was a *party* girl in college, but when I started seriously dating my stbx, I shut that behavior off like a faucet. Your WW didn't stop her behavior while dating you, but it's a possibility that her shut-off valve turned when she made her vows to you. Maybe once she was married, she completely threw herself into the role of wife/mother and left the *party* girl behind.......but you will be making a serious error if you continue to *assume* that is what she did because, from what you've said about her behavior, I'd feel pretty safe in betting that there is *more* -- I wouldn't go "all in" on my bet, but I'd be confident enough to bet *something*.
It's been my experience that when a WS is saying the things that your WS is saying to you -- get over it, it's in the past, it's *your* fault -- that there is information that has yet to be uncovered.
Hang in there, stu. You'll get through this.
In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.
I have read your story and I am sorry you are here. What you wife/girlfriend did at the time was clearly wrong to me. Something you wrote earlier also stood out to me.
I didnít know it at the time but he worked in the neighborhood we lived in. I would run into him occasionally and he would say high and ask me how my girlfriend was doing, and smile. He had met us walking to a store one day. I didnít know who he was at the time; I just thought he was a friendly person from the neighborhood. A few months later we were married and around that time he said he heard about the marriage and wished me well. He also made a few joking remarks about my wifeís ďcharmsĒ and implied she must be draining me to exhaustion with a certain action. They were a little graphic; I just assumed he was kidding around and dismissed it. But finding out years later about her time with him, I now understand how he knew her.
So your wife let this guy have his fun at your expense without standing up for you or letting you know what was going on. She kept these crap diary writings - she certainly does owe you a major appology and needs to stop playing the victim and telling you need to get past it. You will get past it when she takes accountability for her actions.
Another red flag is when you said she indicated your marriage would be over if you went to counseling. Are you sure there is not more to this story than you know? My WW cheated on me while we dated and I never knew. Sure she stopped cheating for a few months after we married only to begin cheating again. You wife has issues she needs to address and those issues didn't go away by you simply putting a ring on her finger. Watch out for those red flags.
It wasn't just that weekend that she was unfaithful - when you walked down the street and she let him make fun of you without you knowing what was going on she was unfaithful then too - that is not the behaviour of a faithful wife.
So not only did she allow this guy to ejaculate into her as you said "will you marry me", but she really would have liked to tell you no thank you. I question whether your wife is emotionally committed to you; more like 'might as well go ahead and marry Stu; maybe no-one else will ask'. Thats what her words imply.
No remorse; she refuses to admit that her actions were wrong. Her lack of respect is what should really concern you. You are asking her to face up to her insulting behavior and apologize, and all she does is threaten you with divorce for suggesting counseling. She doesn't care enough about you to face up to her guilt; no matter how painful that might be.
Personally I would go ahead and arrange counseling and call her bluff. I think you both need this help, or this wound will fester until she bumps into another guy while shopping.
Also would someone explain to me how I celebrate the day I proposed to my wife, the answer escapes me?
It's part of the high price you're forced to pay if you forgive and reconcile. That's why it so critical that your wife acknowledge the seriousness of her offense; you're the one stuck with paying the psychic bill for it.
ďNo, Lord,Ē she said.
And Jesus said, ďNeither do I. Go and sin no more.Ē
To have stated that she liked you and that may turn into love in the fullness of time is a rocky assumption. If she didn't respect you 10 years ago then that is unlikely to change. You were an antidote to being left on the shelf and that is wrong on every level. I get the feeling she would have married Adonis if he had shown enough interest.
Your wife doesn't seem to understand the insult she has paid you. She could have either not answered your call when you phoned to propose; after all she was deep in the throes of sexual union, or she could have made the OM stop, at least temporarily.
She just wants you to shut up and quit bothering with her with your hurt feelings; she isn't going to analyze what she did and admit any guilt. Thats too darn uncomfortable and she just doesn't care enough to do it.
I'm serious. My gut is screaming here that she's got something she's buried and is viscerally afraid to face.
The way she allowed (allows?) men to treat her sounds almost like she has a Madonna/whore complex. Keeping the diary and picture might be her way of punishing herself or reliving it. I'm fairly certain she kept those on purpose and hid them under her parents' items in an unmarked box to keep you ignorant.
Additionally, her story has subtle but clear justifications in her story of how the date came about. She thought you were broken up...but expected to break up with you when you came back from the trip. The whole thing sounded like the typical ILYBINILWY speech. I just keep seeing WS justification in what you report she says. If it wasn't an issue in her mind, she would've told you before she allowed you to build a life on this lie.
As for the OM, I would bet a month's pay that he was cheating on his fiancť. He mentioned a GF and got M a month after. Unless it was whirlwind romance and elopement...
You should consider contacting her with the date and let her know her life was built on a lie too. A male...he's not a man, real men don't treat women like that...like him doesn't change his spots when he puts a ring on his finger.
ETA- re your last post. You need to decide what deal breakers in your M are. I would seriously consider IC for her with a counselor that specializes in sexual abuse for a minimum period of time. Also MC. Think about what you need to feel loved and secure. Then ask for that and accept nothing less.
[This message edited by Holly-Isis at 9:38 PM, March 8th (Saturday)]
in my (probably unhelpful)comments I did not emphasize how important getting to the FULL truth is. You need to get it all, from the beginning until now.
This is what in a way has to be verified:
If she didn't respect you 10 years ago then that is unlikely to change.
If she did remain faithful to you after the day after the engagement, then I think you have something to work with. And, the issues are different.
I agree with the post above, her wanting to answer the phone call from you in the middle of sex is really screwed up. She needs to soul search that one - along with everything else.
The FULL truth will set you free - because once you get to it, I think you will know what to do with your marriage.
Only because you asked, I keep suggesting you consider IC for the following reasons:
(1) I am increasingly convinced your wife had and has some major issues surrounding sex and intimacy that she may be unable to face right now, and her inability to communicate with you is going to leave you in a frustrating one-sided situation. You may need IC to help you process and, if it comes to it, as others have said, decide what your dealbreakers are.
(2) You have said a few things that concern me that you could use some help processing your view of your wife in light of these revelations. You have made several references to the mind movies that you've experienced where you are picturing her having sex with other men. You have also made continual references to "fluids" and "seed" and "mixing bodily fluids," while minimizing that she lied by omission for a decade. For example, this:
When I think about all of this itís not the lie, or the 10 years, itís that she gave herself to another person and when I asked her to marry me thatís the moment he left his seed in her. I canít stop thinking about this.
This is just me, but I've found your emphasis on these matters curious.
I've also been concerned with the conversation you mentioned where you asked (demanded?) she give you a BJ. I worry that the emotional state you are in has pushed you in certain directions that aren't the healthiest as it concerns your interactions with your wife. Talking to an IC might help you come up with more productive strategies.
(3) I can't speak for Norabird... but, as a feminist, language that focuses on the idea of a woman "giving herself" to another man or that views a woman's sexuality and sexual acts in a degrading fashion (regardless of context) are problematic. I don't want to say too much about this now, because I don't think it's essential for you to hear as you attempt to get your feet under you, but consider how the man she slept with that weekend is being called an "Alpha Male" to whom you "lost" whereas your wife is essentially getting slut shamed. Again, I think this is likely a topic for another time... but, nonetheless, I think the essential take-away is the same: there are a whole host of issues having to do with intimacy, communication, honesty that must be addressed here.
[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 10:00 PM, March 8th (Saturday)]
Maybe it's because MrH is the only man I've ever been with, so perhaps, like the OP I expect some sort of "distance" between sexual partners. I can't even think of the times during HB that I likely encountered "essence of xOw2". Even though MrH says he showered each time. I did not get into a relationship, save myself for one person in order to share their bodily fluids during my intimate, vulnerable moments.
Honestly, I feel like I was treated like a whore during that time. After all, both xOw2 and MrH knew their other partners. I did not. You don't bother to tell whores who else you're screwing, you just use them. I can imagine that as a male, Stu felt some variation of that. Cukholded, fooled in one of the most disgraceful ways he could imagine.
Semantics...not the time for going into debating a newly hurt BH on "slut shaming" vs "alpha males". He's actually made excuses for his W and indeed accepted her past sexual attitudes (sex on first dates, no condoms and so on) up until this point. At this point her "free sexuality" crashed right into what he believed was a monogamous M. Instead he finds out he was betrayed literally from the moment he was engaged. Nope, not the time to get into semantics.