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Just Found Out Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: consequences and punishment
Dawn58
♀ Member
Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My STBX showed no remorse and the marriage is over. Mediation is in April.

I have had no contact with him for over a year now. I have no idea what is going on in his life. Practicing NC gives me peace of mind and some space to heal.

The only consequence he will bear is what will come up through the mediation process.

I know he has missed out on my son's graduation, his bear hugs and his "I love you's", a new baby in the family, a beautiful wedding, birthdays, holidays and the love, devotion and trust of a kind, good hearted woman.

I was his third wife. I know he cheated twice on his second wife (his Mom told me that after I called her to tell her what had happened) and I suspect he cheated on his first wife.

He is engaged to his mistress, all bets are on that he will cheat on her.


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 484 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:07 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you think that I occasionally "savor" that moment? It may be "small potatoes" in comparison to my wife's prior actions---but is it really?

No I don't see you savouring that moment. But then again that action came from a totaly different mindest from you. You where extremly angry and reacted. A WS doesn't react, isn't (in most cases, having an A fueld by anger, specially not during the intimate moments that etses into your mind.

So I find your example not very valid in this case.

That is regret, not remorse.

Are you saying that it is impossible to feel remorse for an A and still have the emotional and physical "high" memories still pop up? Does remorse only occure if you reprogram your brain to change those fond memories into bad ones? I don't see how you can ever do that? And as such fail to see how anybody can be remorsefull?


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:13 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My husband is remorseful and he does not do this. He says when he is reminded of what he has done he feels stupid, simple, foolish, extremely embarrassed, and horrible. He does not look back on any of it fondly.

I Think you and jb3199 aren't understanding what I'm trying to adress, my bad. I'll try in Another way.

I don't dispute that a WS can (and a remorsefull do) look back at they did in a good way. They are ashamed and feel bad about it. That's fine. However they feel about it in general and never wanting or thinking of ever going there again they still did have good times during the A. emotions are etched into your brain and not easily gotten rid of.

As an example I'll use your slapping jb3199. I bet that you will feel bad about that 20 years from now even though you are remorsefull and your wife have forgiven you for it. The emotional impact on you will still be there in your brain and it will from time to time pop up in your subconsious and you will relive it again. It's not something that you can get rid of is it?


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:19 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

William:

You asked what she can do?

Think about this a bit. What does (or did) she do that makes you happy, fullfilled, liked, boost your selfestem, loved, makes your Life easier for you etc.

These things and other ways to make your Life more fullfilling is Thinks she can do to atone or repay you in some fashion.

nothing can undo what she did or move the scales except to continue doing that she is doing for a long time. that will rebuild trust, etc eventually. but ... the scales will never balance. ever.

one of us betrayed the other and our daughter i
n many ways, with many people, and for a long time. the scales can NEVER balance. the best that can happen after such is they dont remain so skewed.

I agree with you, things will never again be balanced but if you are trying to R wuld you not want the scales to be least skewed as possible?


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:29 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i dont think taking a pound of flesh is going to shift the scales for me and will only hurt her. its a zero gain for me and a loss for her.

but i do see your point in -> What does (or did) she do that makes you happy, fullfilled, liked, boost your selfestem, loved, makes your Life easier for you etc.

she stopped for a LONG time caring. now i see her caring in almost everything she does. that means more to me than any words of hers ever can.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 555 | Registered: Jan 2014
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 4:51 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you saying that it is impossible to feel remorse for an A and still have the emotional and physical "high" memories still pop up? Does remorse only occure if you reprogram your brain to change those fond memories into bad ones? I don't see how you can ever do that? And as such fail to see how anybody can be remorsefull?

This is because you and I are using a different definition of the word remorseful.

Hey, maybe I am wrong. But have you ever asked any of the former waywards in the I Can Relate forum about this? The founders of this site are a WS and BS. Do you think that all the work that they put in is occasionally met with past "exciting" thoughts from their former affair(s)?

You mentioned a "re-wiring" of their thoughts to rid themselves of those exciting times in their lives. I am looking at it from the other direction---they "re-wired" themselves during the time of their affair(s). That *person* during the affair is not the normal person.

So to answer your question, my belief is YES--they re-wire themselves....back to what is their "normal" status.

And again, I am going with the truly remorseful. This website, and this world, is loaded with regretful waywards...and that is why there are ultimate effects like repeated infidelity, emotional disconnect with their "reconciled" partner, and many times, an unhealthy, or mundane marriage.

None of this takes away from the lack of the betrayed's justice. You will never get that. But I still don't believe they got away with anything...because you know as well as I do, that you now will ALWAYS look at your spouse in a different light.


BH-47
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2077 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

However they feel about it in general and never wanting or thinking of ever going there again they still did have good times during the A.
jb3199, I don't feel you are quite getting what I mean by "getting away with it", and what I feel TOMTEFAR mean.

My FWH is remorseful. (not regretful) He doesn't look back on his affair or his AP at all with fondness. He is, in fact, disgusted and ashamed. No good feelings. BUT, whilst during the affair he very much enjoyed his "passionate" fuckfests. Even though he doesn't look back fondly on this, it happened, it was, it can't be undone. Just because he is remorseful about those passionate fuckfests, he can't go back in time and make those fuckfests become dispassionate, horrible, disgusting, shameful experiences. No, they are what they were. Passionate fuckfests that he got to have. He paid a very high price, he is remorseful and ashamed, but he still enjoyed his fuckfests. But, he doesn't look back fondly on those times.

How can someone rewire their brain to fool themselves into thinking that they had awful sex, that it wasn't passionate, exciting, fun and enjoyable? Would I want my FWH to be able to do that? To make truth untrue?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9844 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't dispute that a WS can (and a remorsefull do) look back at they did in a good way. They are ashamed and feel bad about it. That's fine. However they feel about it in general and never wanting or thinking of ever going there again they still did have good times during the A. emotions are etched into your brain and not easily gotten rid of.

I don't agree. Just because you thought and felt a certain way at some time, you are not slave to feel the same way forever.

Did my husband believe those things were wonderful while he was doing them? Yes he did.
Can he or I ever change that he felt that way during that time? No of course we can't.

Can a WS realize they were deluded into a false world? Yes and this must happen for a spouse to be remorseful. It's not easy for the WS to get to a better place, nobody claims it is. It takes lots of hard work and deep introspection.

If I suspected he had fond memories of his As, even if he verbally assured me otherwise, true R would not be possible.

It seems like you have trouble believing a WS could lose all "positive" feelings they associate with the A. And I still believe this is where your need to punish comes from.

Viewpoints change. If I thought something was a good idea and relished in carrying it out, it does not mean I always carry some private joy in my mind if I later reevaluate and decide the situation wasn't what I had convinced myself it was.

Ok take a hallucination and for our example we'll say it happened with a sane person who took a drug so we can have the same set up of someone who went to a bad mental place and was able to return to reality.

Say during the hallucination, they feel terror in response to a clown. When they come back down they can look back and say "Geez that was really freaky. I thought clowns were trying to get me" without feeling like clowns were trying to get him in the moment he was saying that.

It doesn't make his experience during the hallucination less real to him, but he is not doomed to forever believe clowns are trying to get him. In fact he never *has* to feel that way again if he remains sober and is otherwise mentally healthy. Once he realizes his thinking was distorted, he can dismiss feelings associated with that time.

Dismissing the positive feelings associated with an A and replacing them with what was actually going on is necessary for R. And what I mean by what was actually going on is seeking external validation, not facing issues within, and all the other *usual* and common reasons for having an A. ~The broken stuff.

There is no way to go back and changed how he felt during his As. The reason he still gets to remain married to me is because he realizes his delusions and what was really going on in his head. That reality has no joy or pleasure in it.

things will never again be balanced but if you are trying to R wuld you not want the scales to be least skewed as possible?

Yes and this is why the WS has to find out what was REALLY going on in their head. It's never a simple surface solution. Which is why it's a hard thing to do, the figuring it out part and replacing unhealthy thinking with healthy.

So to answer your question, my belief is YES--they re-wire themselves....back to what is their "normal" status.

I agree again. The come off the drug high and realize it was only a hallucination.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It seems like you have trouble believing a WS could lose all "positive" feelings they associate with the A.
Maybe this is where the disconnect is in this discussion. You are talking about "feelings" during the affair. I am talking about what "physically" happened. Physically the enjoyment, orgasms, excitement, passion, fun can't be undone. IT HAPPENED. Looking back on it with disgust and shame doesn't undo the physical enjoyment.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9844 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well you are right. You can't undo an orgasm or other physical stuff that happened. They just are. Tom is talking about having fond memories and you were clear your WH doesn't have them.

But these things (I took out orgasms)

enjoyment, excitement, passion
are feelings and I think you are confusing them with facts.

So no, he can't unfuck the whore, he can't dismiss an erection or an orgasm but he can realize what he thought was excitement was really deviance. What he felt then as passion was really a delusion that validated fucking a whore.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

are feelings and I think you are confusing them with facts.
No, I don't think that I am. He physically enjoyed fucking the slunt. He physically felt passion and excitement whilst fucking. These are facts.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9844 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
lost_in_toronto
♀ Member
Member # 25395
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you experience something that was wonderfull and gave you very good feelings at the time those felleings will still pop up from time to time even if you deply regret that you did it in the first Place.

I realize that every WS is different, and every affair is different. I am sure that there are WS who enjoy their "fuckfests" as Sister so eloquently wrote.

In the case of my WS, however, I don't think he enjoyed much, if anything, about his A. I think it was intense, and probably passionate, but I also know he was tearing himself apart the entire time. It was not at all blissful and full of joy, it was dirty and seedy. Also, I know my WS very well and the idea of a passionate fuckfest doesn't really ring true. The sex happened, but I don't think that it was very exciting or glamorous. All that to say, I have never worried about my WS looking back on his affair in a positive light, nor do I worry overmuch that wonderful memories of his OW float to the surface of his mind.

He did get to have those experiences, and he can't take them back or atone for them or make it less horrifying for me that he had them. But I don't believe that those experiences were all that, in the end.

Which, in a way, makes it more depressing that he was willing to throw me and our world away for what amounted to some quick furtive sex behind a bar and in the woods. How ugly.


Me: BS/39
Him: WS/37
DDay: August 23, 2009
Together 14 years.
Reconciled.

Posts: 1684 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: not toronto anymore
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Then I guess that's where we differ. I say they are feelings and you say they are facts. If I thought they were facts it would really upset me too.

Ok, what about child molestation. I know a family where all 4 kids were molested (3 girls, 1 boy). Many times when they were being molested it felt physically good. Do you think that means they were enjoying themselves since it felt good physically?


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I thought they were facts it would really upset me too.
They are the facts in our situation. It doesn't upset me anymore, I have accepted that he had and enjoyed sex with someone else outside our marriage.

I don't think the child molestation analogy is anyway relatable to what we are discussing.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9844 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, March 6th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it is because it's an easy way to separate physical facts from feelings. What they felt physically isn't the same as what they felt emotionally and so it's not a fact that those two things have to jive.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, March 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jb3199

I see your Point now, I don't agree with it as of now but I understand you.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 3:02 AM, March 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SisterMilkshake:

That's exactly what I'm thinking.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 3:05 AM, March 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

now i see her caring in almost everything she does. that means more to me than any words of hers ever can

Then you have to agree that atonement is helpfull in your R. What if your W did even more of those things? What if she found new things that shows her love and caring for you? What if she goes way beyond "the norm" doing these things for you the comming year/years?


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 3:10 AM, March 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe this is where the disconnect is in this discussion. You are talking about "feelings" during the affair. I am talking about what "physically" happened. Physically the enjoyment, orgasms, excitement, passion, fun can't be undone. IT HAPPENED. Looking back on it with disgust and shame doesn't undo the physical enjoyment.

This! Perfect explanation!

I would also add that looking back at it the physical enjoyment is still there in the mind even if the action itself discusts.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 3:15 AM, March 7th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BtraydWife

I'll try Another example.

Say I was a druguser( some Heavy drugs like cocain (Never done that myself)). I get out of my addiction and don't ever want to get back to that Place. However, I will always crave the high's I got from using, I will always remember the nice feeling of being high. Same for a smoker that quit (something I did myself), I still have, 15 years after I quit, fond memories of smoking even though I now realy hate smoking and being subjected to secondary smoke.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
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