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User Topic: consequences and punishment
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I believe the WS's did "get away" with the affair. They had it. Can't be undone, thus they got away with it. And, this is why I struggled with justice.

I agree with jb3199 in that the ones who R don't get away with anything. They are required and are motivated to look deep into themselves and repair that which was broken in order to R. That work will vary somewhat by each person but they are required to face the very thing they tried to run from by having an A.

Look at all the beautiful and precious things they were willing to destroy so that they didn't have to face their issues. They are now required in true R to repair their broken selves. They also have to become humble and show a lifetime of compassion for the BS because the A isn't the kind of bad choice that will ever leave their life.

By committing to R they know this will be with them every single day of their life. They know they will have to face the hurt they caused someone who meant so much to them, whenever and however it comes into their daily lives. They agree to live with this burden because of their love for the BS. And this is significant exactly because they are the type of person to run from their problems.

It's kind of along the same lines of seriously hurting your child. Imagine how awful you would feel when you realize your actions seriously hurt your child. Imagine having to provide some sort of care to that child for the rest of their life because of the injuries they suffered at your hands. Imagine how that might feel. I believe it could be similar to what a remorseful WS who is committed to R might feel.

Now that's all talking about real R and we know many times what a WS tries to get away with is some sort of pseudo R. This is where it's up to the BS to demand what they need and to accept nothing less.

The WS that walk out the door on dd and never come back. Although there are still consequences to that, those are the ones who got away with something.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson


Posts: 731 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 10:56 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TOMTEFAR,

There are consequences that may seem like some sort of atonement, if you seek such. To me, a post-nup agreement comes to mind. Maybe there is something along this line that might resonate with you.

SMS, remember---I am only speaking on behalf of the truly remorseful....and I am still not 100% confident of my wife's remorse---probably due to my new found(since D-day#1) insecurities.

My WW screwed three different men...some more than once. But what did she get away with?

She whored herself out for some cheap thrills. Debased herself. Lost the unconditional trust and blind love of her husband...forever. Her children might be aware of her actions, although we hope not. That's just one more worry for her to rightfully shoulder. Her memories of those times are of nothing but disgust to her. So, I don't think that she got away with anything. She committed the acts, and is still in our marriage, so in that viewpoint, she got her way. But the price for admission was much worse than the ride. It was too steep of a cost.

Don't get me wrong---I WANT my pound of flesh. I want the justice that I will never get. I may be a stronger person than I was prior to D-day, but I surely was not aware how weakened I could be made...and forever bear those scars. I am not a better person today than I was 5 years ago, just more capable to deal with infidelity. But that is something that I will have to deal with personally.

Nobody in this family is for the better after her infidelities.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 5:41 AM, March 4th (Tuesday)]


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not trying to convince anyone that our remorseful WS's have gotten away with something. For me, however, that is how I feel. I would imagine some others here at SI might have the same feelings. This is why for some of us the feelings of needing consequences, punishment, justice is so strong and we struggle to accept this particular shit sandwich. I will share my cake analogy here so maybe you can understand how I feel.

You are very hungry. You go into a store. You get to the bakery department and you see a cake. For whatever reasons, you decide you aren't going to pay for this cake. You are going eat it in the store. It is kind of exciting, sneaking eating the cake. Now, the cake is good, however, you feel it is some of the best cake you ever had. Partly because you are very, very hungry, partly because you didn't have to pay for it. You finish the cake. YAY! You got away with it. You are leaving the store. Wait a minute, why are you getting arrested?

You have to go jail. You have to go to court. You have to pay a fine and you are on probation now. You are very, very sorry. You go to counseling to get help with your problem. You won't ever steal again. But, even though the price you paid was totally not worth it, you ate the cake. You enjoyed the cake. You can't untaste/uneat the cake. You got away with eating the cake, no one stopped you from eating it. You did it!

This is how I feel about my remorseful FWH. He got to have a vacation from our marriage and went to FantasyLand. He had fun and was enjoying his little fuckfests. The price the remorseful WS's pay doesn't make up for the fact that what they did can't be undone. They got to do exactly what they wanted to do, fuck someone else. The price can't undo the sex, it can't undo the fun, it can't undo the orgasms, it can't undo time spent with AP's, it can't undo the words that were spoken.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:01 PM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know we all have different points of view. I understand the cake analogy. I'm not trying to sway anyone but I enjoy a good discussion like this.

He got to have a vacation from our marriage and went to FantasyLand. He had fun and was enjoying his little fuckfests.

This does not sound like a vacation and/or fun to me. When I think of these things in my own situation I feel like he was pathetic and nasty. Wallowing in his self hatred. He was discarding everything he believed in out of fear.

I don't use words like vacation, fun and enjoyment. It's not something I ever want for myself. I don't feel envious in any manner and I make sure he realizes how pathetic it all was. I knock down those unicorn farting sentiments every time they come up.

Maybe I don't feel like he needs a punishment because the thing he "got to do", was to begin to ruin his life?


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson


Posts: 731 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:32 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As I read through this thread, I was pretty certain that there is no place for punishment if there is any hope for reconciliation

I'm slowly getting there as well.


At the end of the day, I want to end up with a partner. I don't want to end up feeling like there is some scale that says my WS owes me.

Will any M subjected to an A ever reach this Point though? Will not that M be forever have a tipping scale? I'm leaning more and more towards recompense and atonement as the only way.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:36 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you are working together to fix/heal your marriage, you are reconciling. KWIM?

I don't agree with this. THere are a lot of people stating things like "You need to do the following xxxx for me to ever Think about R with you. So you could punish the WS as a requirement to Think about R.

It al depends on where you are in your thought process though. If you know you want to R Before this you are already trying to R and your thoughts are valid.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:37 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But punishments can't be instilled by the B.

Why do you beleive that? Is it because you can't enforce the punishment?


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:42 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So if a B says their W can't do something...they are only reminding them of the boundaries of the relationship. If the W doesn't want to live by those boundaries, they can chose to leave for good.

I think this approach have a lot of pitfalls in it. It could also setup a M with lifelong punishment of the WS. For instance, say the WS is never allowed out alone at night again. To me that is not a consequence it's a punishment and quite harsh one at that, bordering on blackmail. So I don't agree totaly with your approach.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:47 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with jb3199 in that the ones who R don't get away with anything. They are required and are motivated to look deep into themselves and repair that which was broken in order to R. That work will vary somewhat by each person but they are required to face the very thing they tried to run from by having an A.

I follow you and if you look at it from the WS perspective yes they might not get away with it completely. But if you look at it from the BS perspective they do get away with it. The pain the BS goes through is 1000x worse so I can't agree with you.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:58 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SisterMilkshake

You and I Think exactly alike. Although in my mind the there is no prison or Courts in the example...


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 2:03 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This does not sound like a vacation and/or fun to me. When I think of these things in my own situation I feel like he was pathetic and nasty.

I follow you and I'm happy for you that you can Think that way.

For me though the WS gets to reminess the sweet times in their mind. The sex, the orgasm, the walk on the beach, the exitement of meating somebody new, the exitement of having sex the first time the excitement of falling in love and pursuing somebody. All of these things will be there. Looking back the WS might feel discust for themselfs for doing it but the exiting memories will still be there for a long time.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 2:05 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To me, a post-nup agreement comes to mind. Maybe there is something along this line that might resonate with you.

If post-nup agreements where valid where I live it would be a consequence for me. Either way I hear that they are not very reliable anyways.

How do you aproach a WS about atonement? I would want the WS to come upp with this themselves. But do they?


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 3:34 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

words have meanings - very specific meanings. so to me the logical place to start with this is the meanings of the key words involved.

Punishment
1: the authoritative imposition of something undesirable or unpleasant upon an individual or group, in response to behaviour that an authority deems unacceptable or a violation of some norm.

compensate
1. to provide something good as a balance against something bad or undesirable : to make up for some defect or weakness
2. to give money or something else of value to (someone) in return for something (such as work) or as payment for something lost, damaged, etc.

atonement
1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
atone
1: to do something good as a way to show that you are sorry about doing something bad

consequence
1. the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier: The accident was the consequence of reckless driving.
2. an act or instance of following something as an effect, result, or outcome.


i dont believe a healthy marriage or even a healthy reconciliation can exist with "authoritative imposition" because the sheer act of being able to authoritatively impose a punishment is defacto un-equal. it sets one up as the "parent" and the other up as the "child" or "authoritative figure" and "ruled sub class", one person making the rules and the other following them is not a loving committed partnership. to me this is setting up a M or R for catastrophic failure.

compensation is a nice concept but what a WS can offer as compensation for the following: killing the marriage, complete betrayal, destroying trust, etc. what can they offer that could possibly be of sufficient value to "balance" out the "bad, undesirable, defect or weakness"? nothing. what they did is so terrible that there is absolutely NOTHING they can offer back to put the scales in balance. not a thing.

"atonement" carries a slightly different connontation than "atone" - atonement is close to compensation whereas atone is closer to trying to do good as a way to say sorry for the bad. both are offered by the person who did the wrong to the wronged party as an attempt to say sorry and to, again, balance the scales.
nothing my wife can do will EVER balance the scales again the harm and damage she has done. nothing. her offering atonement or attempting to atone for what she has done wont make me feel one iota better about what she did. atonement and to atone for something are designed to make the person who did the wrong feel better about what they did - that they "paid the debt" so to speak and that the "books are balanced". no matter what the WS cant undo killing the marriage, complete betrayal, destroying trust, etc - its not possible.
i have to agree with jb3199 - "Nobody in this family is for the better after her infidelities". the marriage rebuilt may be better than the marriage it replaced BUT it wont ever be as good as the marriage that could have been there if the same amount of work being put in NOW had been put in before the affair(s). the trust rebuilt over years will never be the same absolute trust that existed before - i never thought my wife would cheat on me, it seemed inconceivable. yet she did and with lots of people in lots of ways over a long period of time - so now i KNOW it is possible that she can cheat on me and its something i ALWAYS need to be aware of and cautious of.

consequences - yeah, there are alot of those. they dont make it "better". they exist because the WS committed an action and they are a direct result of that action.
i trusted my wife to be faithful and by extension to use her iphone faithfully so i afforded her total privacy regarding her phone which she used to create a level of secrecy and conduct her affairs. a consequence of her failure to behave faithfully is she has lost the privacy of her iphone and has lost the apps that she used to conduct her affairs.
thats just an example and not the biggest - but it is a direct consequence.
i now have things that are acceptable and unacceptable to me and if she wants to be with me than she needs to accept these consequences to her actions.
if she doesnt want to accept those consequences then that is her right but that also carries a consequence - a D.

i think cheating carries its own internal set of consequences. an ammoral person is the only one that escapes those consequences and that carries its own consequences. but for the rest of the world - knowing they betrayed their spouse and family, knowing they cheated and the other didnt, knowing that they broke faith, knowing that they lied, and then seeing the direct damage they caused and having to live with it ... thats a consequence. i suspect it carries a pretty heavy price.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 487 | Registered: Jan 2014
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, March 4th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For me though the WS gets to reminess the sweet times in their mind. The sex, the orgasm, the walk on the beach, the exitement of meating somebody new, the exitement of having sex the first time the excitement of falling in love and pursuing somebody. All of these things will be there. Looking back the WS might feel discust for themselfs for doing it but the exiting memories will still be there for a long time.

Then you are not talking about a truly remorseful spouse. They don't "reminisce" about everything that they "got away" with.

TOMTEFAR, I understand exactly what you are saying. After 4+ years, I have not even considered forgiving my WW....I probably never will. Because deep down, I know that if I truly forgave, then I am letting go, and resetting the score in my marriage back to 0-0. And the reason that I can't do that lies within me---that is my problem to work out. I am choosing to keep the so-called "balance" in my favor. And I don't believe that is the healthiest choice to make.

But I can't let that go yet. Like I stated earlier, I want my justice.....and there isn't any.

But that doesn't mean that my WW got away with anything. The only thing that she got away with, was decimating herself and her family.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 2:14 AM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Then you are not talking about a truly remorseful spouse. They don't "reminisce" about everything that they "got away" with.

I don't agree with you in this. If you experience something that was wonderfull and gave you very good feelings at the time those felleings will still pop up from time to time even if you deply regret that you did it in the first Place. You can't switch of your mind. Sure you might feel a bit bad afterwards about it but you still have those memories. You can be as remorsefull as you want but still have those "great" memories pop up.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 2:19 AM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

William:

You have an interesting view. I don't fully agree with you though.

Yes, your WS will never be able to atone or compensate you for the A. You will never, in a "healty" way, be able to punish your WS for the A. However, atonement and compensation could do something. For starters it's a way of showing that the WS is remorsefull and cares about you. It does allow them to partialy rebalance the scales. THe scales will never be even again but perhaps they will not be as bad as without atonement. If done correctly I would guess that compensation and atonement would help the BS heal and regain some lost esteme and trust.

This ofcause if it is the WS that is driving these actions by free will and by the WS design. It's no good if the BS dictates them.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 5:58 AM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You can be as remorsefull as you want but still have those "great" memories pop up.

That is regret, not remorse. I guess that we will never see eye-to-eye on this one...which is fine...because we all have our own opinions.

Here is one sad example from me--shortly after D-day number 1 for me, I struck my wife. It was an open-hand slap across the face, and was almost uncontrollable. And I can tell you at that moment, it didn't feel bad. I felt she deserved it.

How long did that feeling last for me? I did something that I never thought imaginable from me. I went to IC to discuss this. I am forever fucking disgusted with myself, and no matter what I do from here on forward, I can never undo that action. Do you think that I occasionally "savor" that moment? It may be "small potatoes" in comparison to my wife's prior actions---but is it really? I compromised everything good that I thought I was.

I can assure you, that method of "punishment" only adds to my misery.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:30 AM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't agree with you in this. If you experience something that was wonderfull and gave you very good feelings at the time those felleings will still pop up from time to time even if you deply regret that you did it in the first Place.

I agree again with jb3199.

My husband is remorseful and he does not do this. He says when he is reminded of what he has done he feels stupid, simple, foolish, extremely embarrassed, and horrible. He does not look back on any of it fondly. He said he can see how he thought at the time it was wonderful but how he was behaving against his personal values and it nearly cost him everything he truly loves. He is disgusted by what he has done and feels his actions and behavior were pathetic and shallow. No good memories or fond reminiscing are associated with that.

I agree that if a WS can look back fondly on destroying their life then they aren't remorseful and don't fully get it. You can't have it both ways. This follows with my previous statement that if the BS feels the need to punish then they aren't getting what they need to fully heal. And what they need is a truly remorseful WS.



Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson


Posts: 731 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TOMTEFAR, I understand exactly what you are saying. After 4+ years, I have not even considered forgiving my WW....I probably never will. Because deep down, I know that if I truly forgave, then I am letting go, and resetting the score in my marriage back to 0-0. And the reason that I can't do that lies within me---that is my problem to work out. I am choosing to keep the so-called "balance" in my favor. And I don't believe that is the healthiest choice to make.

I understand this too. I recommend the book How Can I Forgive You by Janis A Springs. That book helped me get to a place of acceptance of what has happened and relieved me of any need to forgive. I can't forgive what he did and I don't have to. Acceptance helps level the balance but you are right. It will never be equal again. His As have changed us forever in that way and many more.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson


Posts: 731 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, March 5th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tom
the "bare minimum" i expect NOW is
- 100% commitment to me, our family, & us.
- 100% honesty, transparency, & openness
- 100% removal of enablers & other toxic people
- 100% strict boundaries
- 100% nothing even slightly inappropriate

those are "minimums" and are what i demanded to R.

my wife has remorse and wants to do all she can. but with those as "minimums", its pretty difficult to think of what she could offer in addition to those as compensation or atonement. she has work & home. she tells me what & where she is for work. at home we do stuff together. what else could she give up, there is nothing left. she lost all her friends, doesnt go out, and worries about me constantly. i just dont see what compensation she can ever offer.

nothing can undo what she did or move the scales except to continue doing that she is doing for a long time. that will rebuild trust, etc eventually. but ... the scales will never balance. ever.

one of us betrayed the other and our daughter i
n many ways, with many people, and for a long time. the scales can NEVER balance. the best that can happen after such is they dont remain so skewed.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


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