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User Topic: consequences and punishment
jb3199
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Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It simply comes down to the fact that there will never be justice. Once the offense exceeds a certain level, the justice is harder and harder to mete out.

If my son didn't clean his room when he was supposed to, his punishment is to stay in, clean the room RIGHT NOW, and maybe be grounded for the night(s). To me, the punishment fits the crime.

I'll go up a couple of levels:

Just recently, we caught an ex-employee stealing from our business. Caught him after the 4th time. And while he was arrested, and will be punished by the judicial system, I know that we will never get the 3k-4k of items that were stolen. Can't get blood from a stone, and I sure as hell am not going to tie myself up in civil court to pursue what I know is a dead end. Plus, it will cost more in the long run to report it to our insurance.

So, while punishment is doled out, did I get my justice?

Say I murdered somebody. Would their relatives be OK with me, if I realy was remorsefull and punished myself, with me not getting any jail time?

I someone killed a loved one of yours, and they were executed, would you feel like you received justice? No way. There can never be justice for that. At least not in your mind---unless you are far more forgiving than me.

Often in life, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. It all depends on which side of the table that you are viewing it from. I am sure that my son feels that the punishment of being grounded exceeded the crime of a messy room, but that is his issue to deal with. Like I said earlier, if a former wayward is truly remorseful, they will levy more punishment on themselves then you or I could imagine...because we have not put ourselves in that position.

And in my opinion, that would be the most "punishment" that could be given out....punishing one's self.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2052 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you can compare a murder scenario with infidelity for this question ONLY because we know there are set punishments for murder.

However I would view the dishes thing craig mentioned as a consequence. If you treat me like shit I'm less likely to be helpful to you.

I restricted my WH's activities after dd but felt they were also consequences. I was not comfortable with him participating in an activity that had no known connection to his As. But I felt it provided too much freedom and opportunity and given the cut off of other things, could be abused.

You confirm this too in this post with your contradiction.

Some things I Think are consequences. Things like:

* Change job if the AP works at the same Place.
* Complete transparency.
* Dropping of toxic friends.
* Exposiur to those the BS wants.
* Letting kids know that there is problems in the M and that it is the WS fault. (This to not have the kids start thinking bad things about the BS because the BS is acting up /angry/sad at home)

These things doesn't seem like punishment though to me. So I on one had feel that punishment is needed or the offence have no consequences but I don't know what would be acceptabel, if any.

As SMS said. There is no justice. Even the punishment for a murder doesn't level the playing field. After an infidelity there is always something "off". I think the only thing that can help ease that feeling is a completely remorseful spouse. One that always makes you feel as though they are sorry and it will truly never happen again. Every little hint of the attitude they had in the A will cut into that feeling and leave you feeling slighted in your relationship.

So I guess my answer is that if you feel you need to punish your wayward, then there is probably something you need in healing that you are not getting from them.


eta: well shoot- I had highlighted "consequences" in your post where you said it twice.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 6:41 AM, February 28th (Friday)]


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1748 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is no justice.
I will reiterate what I said earlier in this thread. As long as you strive for punishment, you will not heal. Believe me, I had this battle with myself. It was a struggle. There is no way around it. You must eat the shit sandwich. I tried to avoid eating the shit sandwich. I didn't want to eat the shit sandwich. It really doesn't taste good at all.
This is the big shit sandwich we, as BS's, have to accept and eat, especially if we are reconciling.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9647 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Hurt2Deeply
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Member # 38317
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, February 28th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unlike punishment I do believe in recompense for what the WS has done to hurt the BS. Other words to describe it could be reparation and atonement.

In the late 1800's there was a man I know of who wanted to move to Alaska to explore and work. His wife resisted and cried constantly as she did not want to go. Eventually the man was advised not to take his wife to Alaska and he gave up his hopes and dreams for her.

She was so grateful she promised the next time there was something really big he wanted to do she would agree and do it. Later the man's two nieces and nephew whose father died needed a home. That was her turn to recompense him. She took those young children into their home and raised them as her own.

I believe it is possible and good for the WS to do something to recompense the terrible wrong and pain they have caused their marriage partner. It will not take away what they have done. But they can show remorse in a tangible way.

They could sacrifice any number of things for the happiness of their BS. Something that would mean a tremendous amount to them and that would take real effort and kindness on their part.

I believe with financial infidelity sacrificing their personal money to compensate the betrayed spouse is good. In addition other things could be done that are a great sacrifice by the WS.

I think a sincere repentant WS would be well advised to do this on their own without being pressed by the BS. The BS has so much pain and tremendous losses. The WS should address those in many ways.

Some sincere sacrificial action on the part of the WS for the BS will go a long way towards softening the BS heart and restoring the relationship.


Me BS 57
Him FWH 60
M 35 years
3 Adult kids
R

Posts: 93 | Registered: Jan 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:30 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Punishment to me is nothing but a nice word for revenge. Its takes the anger off the inflictor and inserts it on the receiver. Perhaps another way to think of it is this. Consequences are reactions to people doing the wrong thing. Punishment are actions from the offended to inflict suffering

Lets switch out the Word punishment to justice for a second. Now all of a sudden your argument above comes into a different light.

I don't think we punish criminals to inflict suffering. We do it as a deterent and as a way of justice.

I agree that punishment as a mean to inflict pain on the ofender just for the pains sake is wrong. Punishment for justice or a deterent is OK.


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:37 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hurtingfool:

I'm all with you. In most cases our criminals are not punished as bad as the offence they commiterd. In most countris there is no Death penalty so a murderer gets of, even if caught, with a punishment that is less that the offence he/she commited.

I agree that you will never be able to inflic an equal amount of pain. I'm also pretty sure that moste people don't want that. There is a reason "an Eye for an Eye" is not practised in our civilisation.

Still I agree with you that my inner self demands some justice. Consequences aren't justice.

[This message edited by TOMTEFAR at 4:38 AM, March 1st (Saturday)]


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
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Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:39 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It simply comes down to the fact that there will never be justice. Once the offense exceeds a certain level, the justice is harder and harder to mete out.

I agree, but this still doesn't stop us from dealing out punishment for murder. There is still punishment and at least a partially sence of justice.


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
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Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:41 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I someone killed a loved one of yours, and they were executed, would you feel like you received justice? No way. There can never be justice for that. At least not in your mind---unless you are far more forgiving than me.

I would get justice in the way that the offender didn't get away with the murder. I would get justice in the way that the offender was punished. Would my hur be less, not at all but would it be 1000% worse iof the offender was not punished? H3LL YES!


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:52 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you can compare a murder scenario with infidelity for this question ONLY because we know there are set punishments for murder.

I was only comparing it in the justice feeling of way if you get what I mean. Of cause you can't compare the two. One is a crime the other is not in the western civilization.

As SMS said. There is no justice. Even the punishment for a murder doesn't level the playing field.

But justice isn't about leveling the playing field is it? If that where the case we would have "an Eye for an Eye" laws. But there is justice in some form of punishment, in the thought that the offender didn't get away with the offence.

So I guess my answer is that if you feel you need to punish your wayward, then there is probably something you need in healing that you are not getting from them.

What about the resentment you as a BS get from the fact the the WS walks away without any punishment? There is some consequences yes, the WS might feel bad inside but that is not something justice. So I kind of argue the case that R will perhaps fail if there is no punishment. It might also faile if the punishment is to severe or long lasting.


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:55 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will reiterate what I said earlier in this thread. As long as you strive for punishment, you will not heal.

What if the BS won't heal without some kind of justice/punishment? If that is the case is D the only option?


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:58 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unlike punishment I do believe in recompense for what the WS has done to hurt the BS. Other words to describe it could be reparation and atonement.

BINGO! This is partly what I mean with "Just compensation". Have anybody taken this approach? What did your WS do for atonement/recompense?


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What about the resentment you as a BS get from the fact the the WS walks away without any punishment? There is some consequences yes, the WS might feel bad inside but that is not something justice. So I kind of argue the case that R will perhaps fail if there is no punishment. It might also faile if the punishment is to severe or long lasting.

I still believe that it means a need in the BS is not being fully met. And I absolutely agree that R will fail if the all the BS's needs are not met.

It's up to a BS to determine what they need and sometimes that's difficult. I believe many times the needs of a BS to heal go beyond the general list you'll find here on SI.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1748 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
BtraydWife
♀ Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, March 1st (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you can compare a murder scenario with infidelity for this question ONLY because we know there are set punishments for murder.

I was only comparing it in the justice feeling of way if you get what I mean. Of cause you can't compare the two. One is a crime the other is not in the western civilization.

No I meant that there are generally accepted punishments in place for murder and that society has accepted that a punishment should happen following a murder. Those things don't exist in most places in the US for infidelity.

I wish every place had the alienation of affection laws. It would empower the BS and socially recognize that a wrong was committed and the BS suffered.


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1748 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
jb3199
♂ Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, March 2nd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What if the BS won't heal without some kind of justice/punishment? If that is the case is D the only option?

For some, it may be.

Remember, for this topic, I am talking about truly remorseful waywards. If they are not, then why would we consider reconciliation? But for the ones that are remorseful, why do you think that they are escaping punishment?

My father was a recovering alcoholic...sober for almost 60 years before he died. He was also, without any exaggeration in my mind, the greatest man that I have ever known. And I would have to assume that he put my mother(who was the greatest woman I have ever known) through some living hell.

Obviously, he got his act together. Not only that, he was probably the biggest humanitarian that I will ever see. He always saw the good in people. It is just who he was.

Do you think he received more punishment from my mother, or his own self? Just the fact that he was active in AA until he passed, would leave me to believe that he wanted to pay his debt forward. Because he KNOWS the damage that drinking had brought onto his loved ones, and would NEVER let that happen again.

He may not have "punished" himself after a certain amount of time, but he never forgot the damage he caused...and consistently worked to help himself, and others, from making those mistakes again.

Come to think of it, maybe he did always punish himself to some extent. For 60 years.

That is from a remorseful person. Often good people do bad things. But I don't think that anyone can punish a person as much as they can themselves. It may not give you the justice that you need, but the recompense and atonement that was mentioned earlier is definitely expressed in their own actions. They got away with NOTHING.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2052 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
lost_in_toronto
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Member # 25395
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, March 2nd (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What if the BS won't heal without some kind of justice/punishment? If that is the case is D the only option?

I think so, yes. There is no justice for the BS who wants to reconcile. Punishment is not part of reconciliation. And justice and punishment are not interchangeable; punishment may be part of justice sometimes, but justice does not always have to be punitive. And punishment does not always contribute to justice. Just my opinion.

Honestly, I just don't think the concept of punishment can be brought in to reconciliation in constructive ways. There is a thread down in reconciliation by Bionicgal about the Victim/Perpetrator roles in infidelity, and I think that focusing on the need for punishment will perpetuate that kind of thinking and hinder healing, especially as a couple.

All that said, it is really hard to work your way out of these mindsets, and I think most BSs deal with it. It takes a lot of time to figure out whether you can let go of the need for punishment.

[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 11:42 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)]


Me: BS/39
Him: WS/37
DDay: August 23, 2009
Together 14 years.
Reconciled.

Posts: 1666 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: not toronto anymore
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:52 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honestly, I just don't think the concept of punishment can be brought in to reconciliation in constructive ways.

This is what I'm struggeling with as well.

Somebody else in this thread said something about punishment Before starting R. Is that a viable option in this case?


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
TOMTEFAR
♂ Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 2:00 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jb3199:

I see your Point but then again alcoholism is a sicknes. Infidelity is not, well you could argue that it might be in some cases depending on the mental health of the WS I guess.

I'm still very interested in if people had their WS (or if the WS did this by them selves) do recompense and atonement and what that consisted of in that case?


They got away with NOTHING.

I have a very hard time agreeing with this statement though. I can't, at pressent, agree with it. Yes there are some consequences and the WS might be regretfull and punish themselves but francly that doesn't give me anything if I would stay without any justification for myself. For me this feels like that the WS got away with Everything. The WS got to have their fun and excitement and the BS stayed...


Posts: 106 | Registered: May 2013
RollrCoasterRydr
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Member # 42595
Default  Posted: 2:54 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As I read through this thread, I was pretty certain that there is no place for punishment if there is any hope for reconciliation. But, as someone else said, every situation is unique and, while it wouldn't be appropriate in mine, it could still be for others. For me, the consequences are more than sufficient because they will go on for as long as the relationship goes on... dare I say "'til death do us part?" However, I got to thinking about how the WS might feel. They may find it easier to forgive themselves if they feel like they have something they can do to make amends. At the end of the day, I want to end up with a partner. I don't want to end up feeling like there is some scale that says my WS owes me. I do think that the idea of punishment carries with it an inherent flaw... nobody really can be sure how much is "enough." What happens if you set some form of punishment that is served and afterwards you don't feel it was enough? Do you add more? I do think that the consequences are a lot. Think about it... transparency alone is the loss of all your freedom and privacy.

Posts: 18 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
SisterMilkshake
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Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They got away with NOTHING.
I agree with your last post, jb3199, except for this quote. I have to agree with TOMTEFAR.

I believe the WS's did "get away" with the affair. They had it. Can't be undone, thus they got away with it. And, this is why I struggled with justice.

Somebody else in this thread said something about punishment Before starting R. Is that a viable option in this case?
I don't feel that is possible. The WS would have to agree to the punishment, first off. If you haven't agreed on reconciliation, why would a WS agree to be punished? Working together on a "punishment" is conciliatory. If you are working together to fix/heal your marriage, you are reconciling. KWIM?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9647 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
TrulySad
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Member # 39652
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, March 3rd (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a BGF now, and at one time a BW, I believe whatever negatives fall upon the wayward, they are consequences. Not only that, it's not up to me to instill them. I can suggest, I can say what I'm willing to accept or not accept, and I have complete control over how I chose to live with what they've done. But I think it's up to the W to determine how much they want the relationship, or how willing they are to lose it, and ultimately live with their chosen "consequences" either way.

When I say "chosen", it's not meaning they can determine what's acceptable, while also deciding the outcome. They can only determine for themselves. I also will determine for me. For example...my WBF can decide he's going out with the guys drinking. He knows full well that the consequence will be losing me. I won't yell at him, fight for him to stay in that night, nor remind him of what's needed to stay in this relationship. If he goes, we are done. We both know our boundaries (what his are as a result of what he's done, and what mine are as far as what I will never accept again). And in the end, he decides for himself.

I hate hearing SO's being referred to as a mom or dad, ball n chain, or keeper. We are all partners. We have control over our actions, and we know what the consequences of our actions will be. So if a B says their W can't do something...they are only reminding them of the boundaries of the relationship. If the W doesn't want to live by those boundaries, they can chose to leave for good.

As for punishing the W....I actually wish this could take place. But punishments can't be instilled by the B. Marriage is a legal union. Yes, it's first a union of our hearts and we are joined emotionally....but our laws don't care about that. Our laws recognize it as a legal contract. If one of us breaks that legal contract, I don't understand why the law doesn't punish them. Looking at the number of people here on this site, I can only imagine it's because there aren't enough courts in this land to punish the amount of cheaters out there. Soooo...the crime continues to go unpunished. In addition, because we've intertwined our lives so much with the W, if they were to be punished by the law, the B would ultimately end up also suffering the punishment (lawyers fees, loss of job, loss of profession, loss of security clearances, etc). So I believe punishment never takes place.

In the end, I think consequences and punishments are distinctly different. They are what they are, regardless of how others view them.


Me: Sad, but I will survive

True Love: What I have for my beautiful children.


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