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I apologize if this has been address before, i can't seem to find what I am looking for. So I found about my wifes affair DDay 6 month ago. I feel we are on the right track to R. My wife has apologized many times for hurting me nor was she expecting for me to get as hurt as I did when i found out. She went through heavy grieving giving up her AP. And she is getting better every day, but still has some feelings that she is trying to process though. She is very honest when i ask her questions and she says and is trying to rebuild our marriage. We also see a MC every week. I have read about the difference between shame , regret and remorse. Based on what I have read, I don't believe she is in a state of remorse. She definitely is ashamed of what she did and feels bad for hurting. But she can get defensive about the A when we talk about it and this tells me she is still not remorseful. I have read that remorse does not come right away and that it takes time. The question is how much time?

I know a friend who was very heavy into a cocaine addiction who eventually sobered up. He is now 8 years clean. He told me that it was not until almost 2 years after that he sobered up, that he truly started to feel remorse for his addiction and understanding how he hurt others. From anything I read , an A is like an addiction and certainly i saw very strange behaviour from my wife from when I found out to her wanting an open marriage because she was scared to let her AP go, to seeing what she went though knowing that I eventually put my foot down and told her that it was him or me but not both. Anyhow, my wife behaviour is obviously more normalised now and she is committed to me. But I know she is not 100% over her AP but as she says, its getting better and better every day with time and distance. Like I said, she does not hold anything back and honest about her feelings.

So my question is, is it true that because the Affair is still not that long ago, she still emotionally has not completely over it that she is not feeling remorse. Is it like the drug addiction where once she is been away from the source of her addiction for significant time that she can start to feel remorse. Or is it that one should feel remorse as soon as the A is found out and if they don't feel remorse right away, they never will.

Has anyone else been in similar situation. I read on other forums where people have said that their WS sometimes have their "holy sh#t" moment 15, 20 month after DDay. Is this how it works. What will remorse look like. I mean she is being loving generally and actively working on R. But when I get into a bad place, instead of trying to help me get out of the bad place, she gets defensive about the A. She also refuses to delete all the old emails from the A between her and the AP. Overall, I feel we are on a right track. But its hard to get to 100% for me when she is defending her A when we fight about instead of trying to do whatever she can to help me heal. Is this something that will eventually come after long time away from the A, like 18 to 24 month. She tells me to be patient and just take deep breath. She is trying to heal from the whole thing. What will remorse look like if and when it comes. Thanks all for reading and listening.

Hi Good Husband,

Not deleting the emails is not good. Have you ever re-read a book or a card? Ever look at old pictures to remember the time you went to Disney World? Probably brought back good feelings if you get my drift. Sorry man

Hi Good Husband,

Not deleting the emails is not good. Have you ever re-read a book or a card? Ever look at old pictures to remember the time you went to Disney World? Probably brought back good feelings if you get my drift. Sorry man

This right here is spot on.

I'm so sorry you're here. I don't know if I could have handled 6 mos of a foggy WH. I don't know if my WH is at true remorse yet at 9 mos. Unfortunately I don't feel your wife is close. I'm trying to remember if my WH was still defensive at 6 mos and I don't think do but everyone moves at a different pace.

The emails would be a deal-breaker for me. I made him toss anything from her or that reminded him about the A immediately. Did she let you read them? Did you ask? If you don't want to that's one thing but if she says no that's an issue.

She also refuses to delete all the old emails from the A between her and the AP

.

She uses them to feed her "addiction" to the OM.

Until these emails repulse her she isn't R worthy or remorseful.She needs to be disgusted by her actions, by the A, not hold onto it like it was a wonderful time in her life. It destroyed you, but it doesn't bother her enough to deflate the balloon ? hmmmm. kinda telling, isn't it?

She needs to have NC. No contact includes fantasy thinking about the A. Fooling herself into the continued belief that what they had was special.

I am sorry, she isn't there.

It can take time, but if she is holding on that time will never come. She needs to quit, go cold turkey. Remove him from her life, including happy bullshit thoughts.

You are not able to rebuild your marriage while there are 3 people in it and right now, there are. Her fantasy will destroy any hopes of true R.

If I were you I would make deleting the emails a condition to R, throw away all A evidence. Trinkets...whatever she has.

I am sorry for your continued pain.

[This message edited by karmahappens at 10:57 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

FWW here.

The refusal to delete emails is a massive red flag.

When you're not around, when you're not looking, she's going into those emails and she's reliving all those "feel good" emotions from the A. She's smiling when she reads that paragraph of him telling her about the time he first laid eyes on her and how it made him feel. She's keeping the fantasy and romance going. She is keeping the affair alive. It stays at the front of her mind. It's a hit for her. She's not given up the drug, therefore she's not sobering up.

She's not NC. Physically? Yes. Mentally? Crap no. Not even close. And that is feeding her defensiveness. She continues to romanticize him in her mind so your questions piss her off. She's still protect him cause he's still her hero.

You are not safe, nor are you in real R my friend. There is no "weaning" one's self off the AP. Cold turkey. Now. It's the only way. Some people believe in this "weaning" off of NC. It's bull. You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to have just one beer instead of ten would you? No. You'd tell them to not have a single drop. Why would an affair partner be any different?

Make it a condition. If she wants a shot at R, she must delete them and go full NC, or face D papers.

...but it might be a good idea for you to have a copy of the emails....

^^^^ yes, that!

You may need them as evidence, to double check timelines, dig deeper into more questions, etc.

You get to make rules for your life and if she doesn't want to follow them she gets to deal with the consequences of that.

If she refuses to delete those emails she isn't even trying. Telling you to take a deep breath and be patient is bullshit.

That isn't anything remotely like commitment.

This is infidelity. She isn't going to have a seizure from detox. Remorse will look like her trying to be patient for YOU.

I remember that 6 month mark...my H was still in contact with OW. He deleted emails...which I should have printed and saved...I was just glad they were gone. But, he refused to just stop having any contact with her...said he would only reply to her texts curtly...not initiate and not talk to her...said that he would not be "mean" to her. He had taken her number out of his contact list on phone, but at about 6 months, I found out that he put it under a bogus name. He said he forgot he did that. 4 years later, my H is still defensive some if I mention A, he does regret that he had it, but the holy---- moment has still not happened and may never...he isn't truly remorseful. Sometimes remorse doesn't happen...he has never been able to comfort me when it came to A issues...it is just not in him...may have to do with his guilt. What I am saying is that you may not get what you expect. There is a BS fog just like there is a WS fog and that has to lift before you can see things clearly. You have MC, but do YOU have an IC?? If not, that is way more useful at this point I think...you need support that you are not getting.

I know that the process and decisions that must be made are different for everyone and the is no one right answer, but if I could go back to the day 6 months post dday that I found her number still in his phone, I would have left...I think my fog and his would have lifted sooner.

Thanks All for the replies. I understand that the e-mail are a red flag, but she does not go into them or dwell on them or read them. I do trust her when she tells me this. She is doing everything else right and for more or less it feels right. I know she loves me and she is working on us. She is very transparent with everything and hence how i know about the e-mail and her not wanting to delete them. I also understand why, is because she is not fully over the guy, but certainly thawing out. But she is getting over him more and more each day and I can certainly feel this as i can see it and feel it in her behavior. So yes I would like to have the e-mails deleted, but really they don't bother me as I do trust her when she tells me she does not read them at all or even read them since dday. What does bother me is the lack of remorse. She is certainly sorry and ashamed for what she did. She even randomly comes up and says , I am sorry for hurting you. But if I do criticize the A or we get into a fight about it, she gets defensive instead of stopping and seeing why i am angry or hurt and trying to sooth my pain. She say that he was a good guy and that she did fall in love with him but her feeling for him now 6 month post dday are not what they where when she was in the A. She says, it was a wrong thing to do and she regret doing it, but she says "I am not going to tell you that it wasn't a positive time in my life" and that she was very happy in the A. As said originally, my real question is - does that defensiveness ever go away. Seeing the A in such a wonderful view, does that ever change? As karmahappens said "Until these emails repulse her she isn't R worthy or remorseful. She needs to be disgusted by her actions, by the A, not hold onto it like it was a wonderful time in her life". I guess that is what i am trying to find out...I assume if and when eventually these emails repulse her and make her disgusted by her actions, she is being remorseful. How long does that usually take before the WS starts to be disgusted by their actions instead of viewing the A as wonderful time in her life. Interesting , looks like this person has very similar situation in this post - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=523668 , and looks someone also mentioned that it takes time for the WS to get there. The question is how long does it take for a WS to completely thaw out before they are truly remorseful for their own actions?

I think that there is no specific amount of time to see remorse. I think that the important thing is that you are honest with yourself.

Honestly, I don't know how you can talk about her caring about the AP so much without challenging her on that. I say this because my H went through the same thing, and now at over a year out, I am having a constant struggle with this. Maybe it's the difference between male and female BS here, as I've heard that love is the biggest source of pain for betrayed women (which is certainly true for me) and sex is the hardest for betrayed men to manage.

Here's the thing about remorse; she may think fondly of a time or something with her AP, but when she is remorseful, those thoughts will be overshadowed by the horror and tragedy of her actions with the AP.

It kills me, absolutely kills me, to hear anything positive about the AP from my H, but I know they felt 'in love' for their 2+ year affair. I think that I had to accept (which many people here disagree with) that they did feel love, that it was as 'real' as any feeling can be when they were in it. What I had to work really hard at was helping my H understand the following things;

-Whether I discovered it or not, it was always the worst act toward his wife and children that he has ever committed. He held on to a 'wish' that I had never found out and that he could have just ended it and managed the shame himself for a long time, but that did NOT cut it for me. I needed him to face the pain of shame and admit that it was horrible whether or not I found out. In the same way that we teach our two boys to act responsibly even when they are out of sight and ear shot of their parents.

-When he thought about something positive they did, a 'trigger', I asked him to think about what I was doing at the same time, what was happening in my life parallel to those 'good memories' he was having. That's something that he fought hard, because it was very difficult for him to face in himself. He stated early on when he was in the thick of his fog that 'if he felt bad for me, who was left to feel bad for him'. It sounds horrible, and it was, but I want you to know that he was honest with me about his feelings for the AP as well, and struggled with whether or not he loved me or her the most. We only stayed together for our kids in the beginning, and that fog took about 4 months to even begin to fade. I'm counting 4 months from the second dday (when I discovered there had still been text contact and confronted the OW and my H). NOt until ALL contact and paraphernalia of the AP was totally removed from our lives to any healing, R, or progress begin. It was also when this happened that 'the gloves came off' so to speak on my end, and I think my fog lifted.

I was so afraid in the beginning, so in shock, so willing to take absolutely anything to give my family and my children a chance - it would easily be described as desperate. I would say that listening to my WS describe his love and relationship with his AP was abusive to my soul. But, it was part of our journey, so it is what it is. We still have discussions about my feelings, and I'm still not positive if I can live with this forever, but I hope I can. I hope my H continues to show true remorse, but I don't know. I do know that I have a choice, that my H has a choice.

Lately, I feel like (and I really don't know if this is true), the evidence that makes me believe he is remorseful is that now he is concerned about my fidelity. We are both transparent about everything, and he has had a lot of requests for me lately (proof of location etc.). When we talked about it recently, he shared with me that his A has scared him, that he realised how easy it is to happen, and that he often thinks 'why wouldn't my wife connect with someone else and have an A, look how I've treated her', and he's scared. If nothing else, that lets me know that his mind is in our M now, and not on the AP.

That's what you need. You need to remove the AP from your marriage. There is no way for you to move forward, no hope for a real reconciliation until the AP is removed completely - including emails and anything else. If she is able to do this, you WILL see a difference. You will see a change in your conversations, her thinking, her fog, and her treatment of you.

I know you say you trust her about not looking at the emails, but, honestly, she doesn't deserve trust yet. You should not be trusting her, she should be working to prove that she is trustworthy by doing everything you need or want. I spent the first months recovering from shock, but then my work in IC and journaling was to believe, really believe, that my kids and I would survive if the M did not. I had to take some legal action (names on documents) to make myself feel secure and to let H know that I would not accept any more abuse in the form of his A. And I had to mean it, if you don't really mean it, it holds no power.

I think, at 6 months out, you need to take the gloves off and prepare yourself for either outcome. I think you need to decide firmly what you need from her, and communicate it concisely and clearly. I wrote out a contract and had my H sign it, and carry it with him in his wallet. I laid out clear consequences for specific actions (things like; any contact with AP, list of ways, and he must leave our home and M. Lies by omission will count etc.). And also, I mean it.

She may have to work through some feelings for the AP, but that should be done with her IC, NOT with you. I felt in the early days like I was supporting my H through a break-up, and it was disgusting. It still disgusts me today, my work is in keeping my mind in the present and not festering on the horror of those days.

Be good to yourself, and do what's right for you.

Hugs.

As a WW, I have to agree with the other posters here that your wife is not showing that remorse.

BH and I are only 3 weeks out from D-Day and I am truly disgusted by my actions. I would not want to think fondly of any of it, I only want to think of my H and my marriage constantly. It is my only desire.

Does the A or the AP cross my mind still? Of course, but I dismiss it as quickly as it appears because I am full of shame and remorse and 100% of my energy goes into my H and our marriage and the R process.

It didn't come out on D-day like I would have expected but within a day or two, it hit me pretty hard. I knew right then I what I wanted and needed and nothing else matters.

We have a very long and very bumpy, difficult road ahead. I have moments where it the thought of giving up enters my mind because it is so hard, but I push that thought out and think about how to help my H through this pain that was MY fault. He deserves nothing less than my best effort at all times.

I feel extremely grateful and fortunate to have a second chance and refuse to allow anything in my power to mess it up. I know there will not be another one if I screw up.

I don't think my BH could handle me telling him I'm not over the AP or that I refuse to delete something tied to the AP.

Honestly I would tell your WW to delete the emails or move out. Holding onto to any reminder of the AP would be a dealbreaker for me and refusing a request like that from the BS shows the WS is not remorseful.

She needs to make the M and your healing the priority.

So I think the point is being missed. I know my wife is not in remorse. At least in a way how I read about what remorse looks like. My question is, knowing she is not in remorse now but is committed to the marriage, does remorse eventually come? Has anyone been in a situation where the spouse is in NC and committed to the M, but not entirely feeling remorse, but remorse did come eventually. If she is not in remorse now, can I expect her one day to feel remorse or if she is not feeling it now 6 month out from DDday, I can expect her to never feel it?

Lots of great input from other posters. Here's what I'd add on the subject of the emails your wife won't delete...from my experience.

When I discovered my H's affair, the OW's husband insisted on NC immediately. That lasted three weeks, and two weeks after my H broke NC, he told me and showed me the emails he'd been exchanging with OW. It took another month before he decided on his own to end things.

I was thrilled, but knew that my H still had a few "trinkets" from the A. A small gift she'd given him, a book they read together, a letter she'd written him, plus songs on our computer that were "their" songs. I waited to see if my H would get rid of this stuff on his own. He didn't, and I believe that 98% of him honestly just forgot about it (he's always been that kind of person) but 2% of him just wasn't quite ready to let go. So about five weeks after he said goodbye to her, I asked him to get rid of all of the stuff. He said he'd do it, and he did. Then two months later, I was syncing something on iTunes and realized that their songs were still on an old iPad we never use. So H and I went through iTunes and all of our devices, song by song, to make doubly sure EVERYTHING was gone.

The point of this story is that even with a H that is remorseful and doing the best he can to show it, it still took a few months to get rid of everything. I was ok with that at the time because I know my husband is like this with everything, so I really didn't consider it a conscious or unconscious way of his keeping her in his thoughts. Even so, the pain I now feel as a result is far more than I expected. All of that getting rid of gifts and letters and songs happened months ago, and I realize that in some ways, it extended the duration of time in which I felt like he was being unfaithful. Didn't see that at the time, but now I think I caused myself to feel extra pain and to delay the healing. And this was with a H who was totally willing to get rid of everything.

So, for your own sake, insist that she delete the emails. And be there when she does it. Or do it for her. So you have no question about whether she secretly hid them or sent them to a secret email account. Hoping the best for you.

Gently--I think you are missing the point

What they are saying is that there can be no remorse until your wife goes full NC with the OM and stops all the feel-goods associated with the A.

So long as she is still talking about how great he was and hanging onto old emails, this is NOT going to happen. NC means no emotional contact as well. No romanticizing about the A, daydreaming fondly about the OM, etc. No hanging onto emails for sentimental reasons.

She sounds like she is still in A fog, and unfortunately, it sounds like you are easing her path.

Kick her off the fence. She may never hit true remorse until she sees what she stands to lose: you, and your M.

[This message edited by SpotlessMind at 7:34 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)]

In my totally inexpert opinion, I think women can take longer to defog than men, because they tend to need to feel they had a deeper emotional connection to take the risk for the A. It doesn't mean it was a real connection or real love, it just means they have deeper self-deception. And, everyone is different.

I think you are asking if she is in a permanent state of semi-fogginess since she is holding on the the emails and the idea that it was a "happy" time in her life. To me this shows that she is still partly stuck in the fantasy of the situation, and not seeing reality. We have no way to know if that is permanent or not.

My H said some truly awful stuff in the first, foggy days. He even said some not-so-great stuff a month or two out. I would say real remorse crept in over time. . .starting at about 6 weeks, and really getting stronger all the time.

I do feel you are enabling her with those emails. They have to go. Also, I hope she is in therapy, because it is concerning that she feels it was a happy time in her life. My H, who similarly thought he was "in love" with the AP, now thinks of those days as his darkest, lowest moments. The fact that your wife still hold them up is concerning and shows she is not in touch with your reality. And since she is married to you, that is what I'd be concerned about.

My SAWH is one of the slow ones. Why? I honestly don't know. It could be because he's an addict and was truly addicted (Sex AND love addict) to her. It could be because their paths cross monthly or so. It could be because he just wasn't particularly committed to me/us at that point. It could be because he just didn't "get" that he could no longer be her friend. Or it could be his head wasn't screwed on just right (the Grinch). Whatever the reason, he resisted--even though he CONFESSED!

His withdrawal from her has been painfully slow. After his confession, he had more or less NC with her for 3 months. Then, in the lead-up to a joint trip between their two companies, they re-connected (not physically). He has always had boundary issues with pretty women, yet he has never understood why this would be a problem. He couldn't see why--if they were both "over" each other and committed to working on their marriages--they couldn't be friends.

About 8 months after he confessed, I sneaked onto his phone and found the texts they'd sent each other while I took my "turn" driving to our home state for a family wedding. I took pictures of the texts. I didn't want him to know how I knew they were back in touch, so I asked him to unlock his phone and let me see who he'd been texting on the drive. He refused. So I TOOK his precious, classified phone and slept with it. Technically, I'm not supposed to touch it. But, technically, he's not supposed to break laws, either--like pay for prostitutes. When I shared that logic with him the next morning, he unlocked his phone for me.

The texts weren't sexual; they were his version of friendly (which is somewhat flirtatious). "I miss your laughter." "You rock." Etcetera. But I was angrier than I've maybe ever been with him. Why couldn't he let go? Why couldn't he leave her behind? I called her his "cumdumpster" and because I don't curse, he flinched at that one. I explained that there was no room for 3 in our M and that I DESPISED her. If he had wanted her for a friend, he needed to have observed boundaries. Since he chose not to, he no longer had a choice. She had to go. Completely.

That's also when we--his family members--got taken off the non-classified phone, the phone he bought to contact his hookers, and put onto the work phone (the one SHE--the ultimate whore) had been on. He spent the day-long drive home transferring contacts. Things were tense for that next month. I didn't trust him at all and was hypersensitive. It was horrible--just like going back to the very beginning!

But he stopped texting her. Every once in awhile (he's an addict, remember), he's confessed to me that he's e-mailed her something. He has to see her on an every-other month basis and their groups hang out together (so high schoolish!). But on his last trip, last week, he told me that when they saw each other, they both said hello and smiled, but that was all. And when he decideded to stay behind and not eat lunch with the "group," she asked him if he was coming. He declined. I think--with that move--he FINALLY cut the strings. It shouldn't thrill me so much, but it did. He did it on his own. He knew (from past conversations with me) that it worried me, that it bothered me, that it pushed his recovery back, and he finally did it.

So it can happen. And it can be worth it. I can tell you, though, that if certain things hadn't been happening on the homefront--measurable-to-me progress--I'd not have been so patient. So while your WS may not be completely remorseful yet, if she's doing some things right, you can afford to wait a bit. You could also force the issue. Some things I've forced; some things I've been patient about. Allowing him to get there himself--however slowly--has been the most rewarding for me.

Good luck!

[This message edited by RippedSoul at 7:31 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)]

Goodhusband10....Did not see how long the A had been ongoing. Sorry if if was there and I missed it.

Remorse looks different for each of us. My WS was remorseful upon Dday along with shame, guilt and more many discriptive terms BUT full remorse came months after the fog of A lifted. What he came close to losing, what he had put on the line and what his feelings for AP actually was all came into play for his true remorse.

He immediately broke all ties to anything that had to do with AP except his job and she ran away from that after 1 encounter. All texts and emails were gone.

I think the beginning of his true remorse came after I outed AP to her spouse and her response....she was below the belt and a true other woman which he did not think she was capable of. The fog of perfection began to lift and he began to see what her for what she really wanted and her lies. That was 3 to 4 months after Dday but remorse is a process to me and at 8 to 10 months after Dday, WS was truly remorseful along with regretful of his stupidity.

Hanging on to emails is a red flag for me....she is still in that fog of something.