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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N P D Thread - Part 13
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Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Whatever you do, don't think its over. Not even for a second.
Thanks, LittleFoggy, I needed to hear this today!

I have a question....hope it's not too much information. I started to post it over in the Sex Addict Spouse's forum, but I wonder if it doesn't belong over here, at least for me, as I think it related to how I tried to keep FT happy. I just wonder, did anyone have sex with their partner, even when it hurt, just to try and keep the peace? There was such a shunning going on, a pouting, overall coldness, if there wasn't recent sex.

Thanks.


Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kajem,
I'm also glad to help anyone dealing with NPD. Pay it forward..... Teach your kids to be narc aware and free. We need more aware peeps in the world. Break the cycle thru awareness and action... It's a legacy we can help create for our kids
I also have been helped by your postings and references. I appreciate the time you put in here! I hope I can help my children in the future.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

YOP, I've read a lot of your postings and I really admire what you've been able to do. I think that your children will most certainly benefit. I hope that you have smooth sailing with your mom in the future. I think you have gotten her attention!!

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
Quakingaspen
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Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Melody Beattie has a book of daily inspirations/meditations that really helped me take on codependency one day at a time. I think it's called The Art of Letting go. It really is a great way to tackle the big problem into manageable bits.

Yes! I love this book!It makes so many things so much more manageable to focus on one bit at a time.

K- Thanks again for the advice with the kids. It's been very helpful. I ask them what they wish he'd do/say and we talk about how it is very reasonable and normal for them to want their dad to do things like that.

I am tired of people telling me that all will be forgiven with time and all will be well and you need to let it go for the kids sake. They have not been the ones holding my kids as they lose it emotionally, help heal a child that has been cutting from all the hurt her father has done emotionally, take the high so the kids can attempt a relationship with him on their terms, and the rages of anger they have felt. I just don't see that as a possibility with an NPD ex.

GRM - I am totally with you on this. On one level I realize it is the kind of platitude that people say when they're trying to be helpful, but it is so far from the reality I'm struggling to get closer to, and frankly feels invalidating. If I were in a physically abusive relationship, no one would be trying to sell me a friendship with my former batterer, in the future or anytime. Just because the scars aren't visible doesn't mean they are less meaningful. I am sorry for your baby with the cutting. That is a very hard place to be. (((hugs for you both)))

yop - so glad your meeting went well and that you're feeling strong.

littlefoggy - I know what you mean. I have a post-it on my computer that reminds me: "Don't undervalue the help you've already given. Let them come to you if they need more." I also have a habit of putting myself out more than I need to.


I've seen enough.

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 122 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
Quakingaspen
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Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question....hope it's not too much information. I started to post it over in the Sex Addict Spouse's forum, but I wonder if it doesn't belong over here, at least for me, as I think it related to how I tried to keep FT happy. I just wonder, did anyone have sex with their partner, even when it hurt, just to try and keep the peace? There was such a shunning going on, a pouting, overall coldness, if there wasn't recent sex.

Compartmented, I am glad you brought it up, because I am starting to deal with this in IC, and am not really sure where it goes myself.

But anyway, YES. I did. The worst part was that I would have to initiate too because otherwise he claimed I was just never interested, and he would withdraw further and become cold and mean.


I've seen enough.

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 122 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
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Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The worst part was that I would have to initiate too because otherwise he claimed I was just never interested, and he would withdraw further and become cold and mean.
Yes, this was mine, too. I tried to catch him being nice to me so I could initiate, as I at least had enough respect for myself not to crawl to him for sex when he was being mean.

Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
ChoosingHope
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Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi everyone,
I haven't been posting here b/c I just started working a few weeks ago (after ten years staying at home), and I'm also preparing for court against Genius. But I've got a long story to share, not surprising, I'm sure, to most of you. But it's still heartbreaking.

The other night, my nine-year-old son was trying to call Genius. Over and over again. Finally, Genius picked up, and we could clearly hear a child talking in the background. (My children use speakerphone to call their father.) He said to my son, "Uh, I'll call you back in a few minutes." Click. My children know nothing about the reason for the divorce; they don't know there is another woman; they know nothing about SA or NPD.

My son sat there and punched the air. (This is an unusual reaction for him.) It's like it all came together in his head: the reasons for the divorce, the fact that his father might have a GF, or perhaps even a child or other family.

My son waited a few minutes to call his father back. At that point, I started triggering. Genius picked up, out of breath, breathless, hysterical, talking a mile a minute, basically gas lighting HIS OWN SON. He told him this crazy story about how we at at a big theater in our city, a famous place, and actually asked my son if he had "ever heard of it." My son was like, "Uh, dad, yes, I've been there a million times, with you and others."

Genius then lied and said he was there with friends - and when pressed, WHISPERED the name of a friend who now hates him. He obviously whispered it because he was still with OW/SA and her child and didn't want to insult them. My son asked him a few other questions about how he got there, etc. At some point, Genius got a really nasty, cold tone in his voice. I recognized it, of course. My son STARTED APOLOGIZING for questioning his father.

When he hung up finally, my son looked at me. His face was bright and relieved. He told me "the case is closed" and that his father explained everything. His relief was obvious.

I hope this crazy story makes sense typed out. All I can say is that I recognized this pattern. This is what Genius did to me throughout my marriage. He gaslighted me, then got mean when I got too close to the truth, made me back off, and then feel guilty about accusing him of anything. I lost my faith in my instincts - and in myself. To see him do this to my sweet child nearly broke my heart.

On the other hand, my son is close to the truth. The divorce trial of the century, as I call it, is finally next week. I pledge to get my children into therapy as soon as I can. And I think we're going to need to tell them some difficult truths about their father. He can NOT damage them in this way.

Also, as an aside, he was pretty much diagnosed as a sociopath during the custody eval. I don't think I've written that here before. It's a thin line between NPD and sociopathy. It's funny, I started this journey nearly three years ago believing that he was a SA. Then NPD. Now I come to realized it's probably all true, but he's also a sociopath.

God.

OH, and my last observation is that he chose the other child over his own son. This is the same man who has been fighting me over custody for the past nearly three years.

Tribe, please please pray for me next week. I had to go to the doctor and get meds to get me through what promises to be one of the biggest circuses in my city's divorce court. Genius is an attorney representing himself. He's trying to get the child custody report thrown out. And that's probably the least of my problems.


Posts: 1688 | Registered: Oct 2011
Kajem
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Default  Posted: 9:32 PM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ChoosingHope.

I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers.

If I were in a physically abusive relationship, no one would be trying to sell me a friendship with my former batterer, in the future or anytime. Just because the scars aren't visible doesn't mean they are less meaningful.

I've explained to people this and exactly this way! It helps to put things into perspective for people who (thankfully) have never experienced emotional abuse.

You're making me . All I did was share links you did the work to get there, read, and learned what was needed to help in your situations.

Hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5061 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
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Default  Posted: 10:59 PM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hope, I'm so glad you posted. I've been wondering if you're ok. I knew the trial was coming up. Do you really think he will let it go to trial? Won't everything, or at least a lot, become public then? Mine was going to be a jury trial and for sure would have been well attended by the locals but FT finally got real on our settlement negotiations, so we didn't go to trial.

I'm sooooo sorry about your son. He does sound really smart though. The thing about the fist punching...he's really sounding as though he is very much wanting answers, you know? Like he is searching for the truth, even as painful as it is. I was shocked when I saw what my X was doing to my youngest son. It seems to me that even though a great deal of X's venom is directed toward me, that he has plenty of delusion and manipulation for everyone. Very sick.

Sorry about the sociopath thing. I'm right there with you, I suspect. Just keep it in mind, if you do go to "eve of trial" negotiations, that this won't be over. Mine was planning his contempt actions prior to us settling. I needed legal fees again a few months later and should have negotiated with this in mind.

I'll definitely have you all in my prayers!! And it's not a problem to need help getting through this. It's incredibly stressful!!


Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
ChoosingHope
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Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, May 23rd (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ah, Compartmented. Again, so many similarities.

Yes, he's going to trial. He doesn't think he's done anything wrong, so he'll fight to the end, even if it means some exposure. And yes, I'm afraid this won't be over after the trial. I just read in the eval report that he intends to take me to court after this to prosecute me for using a key logger. (However, I did NOT use a key logger, and I have 100 percent proof of this.) Also, he told the eval that he has been consulting with an attorney about suing me for my non-marital funds.

But first things first. I need to survive next week.

Also, can you share what your ex did to your younger son in terms of manipulation??? I'm sure the same will happen here. And it breaks my heart.

The evaluator said that he's extremely concerned about what will happen after all the scrutiny of the custody eval (and trial) are over. That STBX will really start messing with my children's heads. I'm very worried.

How are your kids doing now???

Also, have you seen Martha STrout's book, The Sociopath Next Door??????

Thank you for everything. Really and truly. xo.


Posts: 1688 | Registered: Oct 2011
Kajem
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Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, May 24th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That STBX will really start messing with my children's heads. I'm very worried

XH and NW manipulated my kids any way they could. Heck they still try. My kids were 12,12,10,8 when we divorced.

Somewhere in their senior year sf high school they caught on to the manipulations by him, the conditional love dance they were doing. Etc. it helped me to see this happen to them.

They were understandably upset with him. Especially when they made a deal and he reneged on his part of the deal.
I was very worried that my youngest, she didn't have her realization of him in high school, she made choices to choose them at a every opportunity. Arguments, discussions about the relationship between him and her sisters, she ALWAYS defends him- even when there is no defense. I did what I did with my other 3 kids, and prayed ALOT! I let her go! I kept in minimal touch as it was hurting me - this kid did everything she could to let me know she hated me! This past Mother's Day she came to visit me (by herself). It was the first time in over a year that we were alone. I was very guarded with her. She spent the night and we talked about nothing in particular-mostly things her and her sisters were into as kids. I did not bring up XH she did. I was on eggshells. It was a good visit. It's 2 hours back to where XH lives and where she will be working for the summer. She was texting me that she loves me, she knows how much I've done for her and her sisters over the years, she knows I've been there for my kids, she worries about me, she understands just a little how much I tried to teach that the dynamic duo of dysfunction are not operating like normal human beings.

So don't give up on the kids, let go if you have to save yourself (Chrysallis) but don't give up on them. They need us more than we can ever realize in navigating the NPD shitstorm!

Hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5061 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Chrysalis123
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Default  Posted: 8:18 PM, May 24th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Kajem. DD19 is off 1000 miles away. She has started texting me. I am very guarded and give her as much energy back as she gives me. I did send her a small care package which she loved.

She has now completely cut NPD and psychoGF out. That's what she did to me for the last two years....I am curious about her thinking for this.

I suspect the truth of how badly manipulated she has been by NPD is dawning on her. I pray that she learns the lessons life needs to teach her more gently than I had to learn.


Don’t get to the end of your life and find that you lived only the length of it; live the width of it as well. 

Posts: 2669 | Registered: Jan 2010
ChoosingHope
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Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, May 24th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kajem and Chrysalis,
Thank you. I've read a lot about the fair-haired child of an NPD, and how that is so much more damaging in the long run than being the child that the NPD ignores.

Did your daughters get any special treatment from their fathers???

You prob. won't be surprised to hear that the fair-haired child in this house is my son. STBX is obsessed with him, and treats our daughter rather dismissively. I was going over the detailed notes and test results from the custody evaluation, and I was a little surprised to see that my son rated STBX slightly higher than me, overall, on dozens of questions. Like who keeps their promises more. (Ironic, that one.)

My son knows that I take care of him every day, that I love him, that I do everything for him and his sister. I was really a little surprised to see the results. On the other hand, my daughter's results were skewed highly favorably towards me.

So your stories are pretty cautionary to me. What I want to do is make sure that both children know more about why this marriage broke up. They need to be told with input and guidance from a psychologist. I refuse to take the blame for any of it anymore. The whole "mommy and daddy weren't getting along very well," story is quite frankly ridiculous for smart elementary-aged children. I think it skirts all the important issues and makes the kids think that you're holding back on them.

And it sure does't work for a NPD/sociopath situation, because the NPD will act like the victim.

I don't know what lies ahead of us. I have a feeling that I won't be able to control it. I wish he would just disappear and leave my poor children alone. He's done enough damage. And it's probably just beginning.


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caregiver9000
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Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, May 24th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What I want to do is make sure that both children know more about why this marriage broke up.

I agree with doing this with family counseling input. Be careful. Especially given that your son is elevating his father and clinging to the image of his father, you shattering that image could paint you as the ultimate enemy.

I think that if your children ask you direct questions, then honesty (age appropriate and with the least amount of harmful details) is absolutely the way to go.

My youngest DS repeated to me that "daddy said he broke up with you because you were mean to him." I asked what "mean" meant. DS said I yelled all the time. I asked him if he ever knew me to "yell." NO. Do you remember me yelling? NO. I then asked if "Even IF I yelled all the time, does that make it ok to to have a girlfriend while married?" The thing here is that my guys have known about daddy's girlfriend from the very beginning. It has made many of the why questions so much easier. But of course the NPD wants to be the victim.

the kids think that you're holding back on them.

Do your kids think this? If they don't, then any discussion will feel awkward and out of the context. If they do, then their questions can lead the amount and type of information you give.

I don't know what lies ahead of us. I have a feeling that I won't be able to control it. I wish he would just disappear and leave my poor children alone. He's done enough damage. And it's probably just beginning.

You won't be able to control him. BUT, you will have so much more control over other areas!! You are in control of the finances (YAY job!!) and the schedule. You will control your household. You can control your emotions and your response to his behaviors. I strongly believe that what you project/predict will be more likely to come to pass. Based on that, I try to find a way to project the silver lining. Turn your problems into challenges and watch how you feel change even subtly.

((hugs))


Me: 44, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 13 DS 10
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5800 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
Kajem
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Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, May 24th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did your daughters get any special treatment from their fathers???

Yes. All the time! Example: XH refused to attend my oldest kids band senior night UNLESS NW was also escorting the kids. It was their last time playing on the field and parents escort them across the field. My girls (twins) wanted to do this together. Which meant all of us XH, kids, and I . Band director told everyone only 2 escorts. He probably would have made an exception for us, but no one asked. At the time NW could not stand near me without making snide comments to yelling at me. My kids did not trust her to behave. So they wanted mom, dad, and them to walk. He wasn't coming without her being invited to walk. They never showed, girls asked XSO to walk them. His answer "I'd be honored, if your dad shows up at the last minute, I'll be across the field taking pictures". They were hurt he didn't show and stopped talking to him or visiting. That was October. Thanksgiving rolls around - it's his holiday. Dd2 goes to his house for dinner. Dd1 does not see them. Just before Christmas dd1 and XH have a meeting and bury the hatchet. Christmas comes they go over for the holiday and they each get new slippers and money.
DD4 -$100
DD3 - $100
DD2 - $60
DD1 - $0

It's not a typo they gave Dd1 nothing but slippers. She was beyond hurt after sucking it up and being the bigger person and apologizing to NW for not inviting her......

There are so many other stories like this... Only the latest twist is that DD3 is now not receiving the same amount of narc compensation as littlest. I think because she isn't willing to perjure herself anymore to keep peace in his household.

Chrysalis I'm hoping she has roommates who can show her what a normal relationship looks like between parents and kids her age. That helped my kids realize that as crazy as I am, I'm more normal than the sperm donor.

Hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5061 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
littlefoggy
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Default  Posted: 9:11 PM, May 25th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had nightmares last night.

Something STBX used to do. I would put things in places I liked and he would move them to the places he liked. No matter what. I would move something and, like magic, it would move back. Wordlessly. And usually stuff he never used, in rooms he rarely utilized. And my stuff. Like MY stuff.

Trivial stuff, or big stuff. Just like everythign had little springs on it and would *boing* bounce right on back.

So I have been doing a bunch of work on the yard. I tore down a couple hideous structures STBX built. And I got rid of some stuff. It was great.

In my nightmare, I went outside and it was all put back.


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2013
Kajem
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Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, May 25th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Little foggy,

The relocating of stuff ( and denying it!) is a form of gaslighting. All your hard work and he negates it! Sounds about right for the NPD. You do the work and it's never enough, they want control.

Don't give it to him!

Nature girls XH is the sickest one I've heard of on SI regarding moving/hiding stuff and denying it. Her stories regarding her garage are legendary.

Hugs I hope your sleep is more restful.
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5061 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
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Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, May 25th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, can you share what your ex did to your younger son in terms of manipulation??? I'm sure the same will happen here. And it breaks my heart.

One of my X’s m.o.’s, when he is going to be accused of something horrible that is true, is to accuse the other party of something heinous, which he makes up. He is so good at lying that he wins in a liar’s contest. I’ve seen it over and over for years. What he will do is to “poke” at the other party in a way he knows will get to them (he studies them and their interests and weaknesses, and files this away for later use), and then when they react to his attack, he will point out to the judge or whoever, “See, I told you she is crazy, or would do that.” By pre-gaming it, he gets the benefit of the doubt. This is what had me screaming at the T.V. the first time I watched the movie “Gaslight”!!!!!

I knew he would do this with the children, so I wouldn’t play the game. I kept calm and quiet. I answered their questions but I didn’t rant and rave. I didn’t let them know about X’s latest attacks. I don’t take the bait. He’s still trying. Even last week, I watched my child drop another “bombshell”, looking up at me and then down and the back at me again…waiting for “mom to go ape”. I didn’t even flinch. I know this game! Too much pillow talk, FT! It totally was a dud, and my child then backed out of that planned event.

My X controls with money. He buys the nice toys for the children. He takes the toys away if he is not happy. He torments with threats of leaving them unable to do the things they need to do. The bribes and threats did have the desired effect, to turn the children away from me, but only for a short time. I was fore-warned and was able to get through it.

X never showed the children much emotion, because….ba-da-ding! He doesn’t have any!! But he learned in therapy that crying gets you sympathy, so he tried that new skill out with the kids. They want so much for him to be real and love them that they were affected by the sudden appearance of emotion. I have no idea what the entirety of lies told about me is, but I have heard some of them. A year and a half out, and the children know they are lies. I stayed calm and my actions showed them who I am. He hung himself. He played his old games which he had told me about, and I changed in therapy. He never really got to know the stronger me, as I filed for divorce and went hard NC on him pretty fast.

Choosing, yours might not do all this. He might move on to other activities and leave you and the children alone. I sure hope so!!! I just wanted to warn you that he might so that you can be sure to negotiate so that you can afford a lawyer soon. I didn’t do that. I thought it’d all be over. My X was sure to let me know that he was planning to sue me for parental alienation. Again, the best defense of what he was actually doing was to accuse me of it.

Does any of this help? Your children are so much younger, so things will be different for you. I won’t lie; it was hard and I worried about my youngest. He’s still getting the brunt of X’s crap, but he’s stronger now and sees it for what it is a lot better.


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Default  Posted: 10:07 PM, May 25th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All I can say is that I recognized this pattern. This is what Genius did to me throughout my marriage. He gaslighted me, then got mean when I got too close to the truth, made me back off, and then feel guilty about accusing him of anything. I lost my faith in my instincts - and in myself. To see him do this to my sweet child nearly broke my heart.
Mine's pattern was to feign interest in whatever I was excited about, let me prattle happily on, and then drop his negative idea about my thoughts. I'd end up feeling a fool for the things I shared. I stopped sharing my feelings and goals for this reason. I heard my son chatting with his dad on the phone last week, happily planning a trip with him. Then suddenly he swore at him and hung up the phone. I know that pattern! X heard him happy and had to swat him down with some verbal abuse.

It is sickening to see it happen to your child. You know exactly how it feels, and it was hard to see it when it was happening you. You see it happening to them and now your eyes are open, but you can't stop it.


Posts: 1256 | Registered: Aug 2010
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Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, May 25th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just read in the eval report that he intends to take me to court after this to prosecute me for using a key logger. (However, I did NOT use a key logger, and I have 100 percent proof of this.) Also, he told the eval that he has been consulting with an attorney about suing me for my non-marital funds.
See, these two things make me think of mine. Part of their power is their legal degree. They can attack us, like yours is, defending himself, for very little money and wrack up huge bills for us. Mine did this in the end of the divorce.

But for the contempt hearing, he got stuck with my attorney's fees so that sucked for him!

I don't know if mine's done with me yet or not, but I really think that I should start getting ready to sue him for harassing me using his standing in the court. I hear judges don't like that at all, for attorneys to do that to their ex-wives. So my advice to you would be to try and document any and all of his abusive actions to you and the children. Organize so that if it comes to that, you can show it to the judge. Something has to stop these guys!

It's just my jaded-by-FT-X opinion that your STBX's motivation for going for your non-marital funds is to weaken you for further attacks in the form of lawsuits. I mean, he knows you didn't use the key logger, right? It's been expensively exhausted as a topic, and he's going to pursue it in the courts anyway? It just seems like an attack to me.

[This message edited by Compartmented at 10:22 PM, May 25th (Sunday)]


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